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richardc
07-02-2003, 12:11 PM
In Ezekiel 23:20, the Bible says, "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses."

OK, I have just become more aware of this verse, and it is shocking me. This is almost pornography. As a Christian, I am supposed to believe that a holy and pure God inspired this particular verse. I am having some problems with that. Why would God need to mention and compare the penis sizes of men to donkeys and their ability to ejaculate to horses? Can you imagine youths reading this, especially female youths? This is gross. Why did God inspire a man to write this down? Couldn't He have omitted this verse? It seems so unnecessary, especially the part that compares their "emission" to horses.

I await some answers...

vanilla
07-02-2003, 12:14 PM
I read this in an old issue of National Lampoon dissing Christianity.
I wouldn't have noticed it otherwise. Sortof like Leviticus, hard to follow.

Lord Ashtar
07-02-2003, 12:27 PM
There are all kinds of gross things in the Bible. I seem to remember Abraham's daughters having sex with him while he was asleep so they could get pregnant (might not have been Abraham per se, but it was in Genesis, so it was probably him or one of his immediate offspring).

Diogenes the Cynic
07-02-2003, 12:48 PM
Check this one out:

1 Samuel 15
2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

I find this kind of stuff far more disturbing than donkey schlong and horse jizz.

Shodan
07-02-2003, 01:05 PM
I think the purpose of the Ezekiel verse is to gross you out. The two sisters (Israel and Judah) are being condemned as adulterers (since they left the worship of Yahweh to 'lust' after other gods). Apostasy of this sort is a serious wrong-doing, so the prophet condemns it.

Besides, this was written in a farming/herding culture. People would have been familiar with the sight of animals mating.

Regards,
Shodan

cedric45
07-02-2003, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Lord Ashtar
There are all kinds of gross things in the Bible. I seem to remember Abraham's daughters having sex with him while he was asleep so they could get pregnant (might not have been Abraham per se, but it was in Genesis, so it was probably him or one of his immediate offspring).

That was Lot and his daughters after the destruction of Sodom. Lot was Abraham's brother-in-law. Still pretty gross no matter what. Not too strange is the fact that you don't hear a word about ole Lot after that!

amarinth
07-02-2003, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Lord Ashtar
There are all kinds of gross things in the Bible. I seem to remember Abraham's daughters having sex with him while he was asleep so they could get pregnant (might not have been Abraham per se, but it was in Genesis, so it was probably him or one of his immediate offspring). It was Lot (Abraham's nephew) and his daughters. Genesis 19.

There's also the fight between two women over whether or not to eat one's son in II Kings 6, which is my grossout moment.

The Bible is kind of icky in many places.

richardc
07-02-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Shodan
I think the purpose of the Ezekiel verse is to gross you out. The two sisters (Israel and Judah) are being condemned as adulterers (since they left the worship of Yahweh to 'lust' after other gods). Apostasy of this sort is a serious wrong-doing, so the prophet condemns it.

Besides, this was written in a farming/herding culture. People would have been familiar with the sight of animals mating.

Regards,
Shodan

It is not just about the grossness. It is the sex. I can't imagine Christian women, especially young Christian women, reading this verse and what kind of lustful thoughts it might produce in them; therefore, I cannot see how God could inspire such a thing, especially when Christians (well, Catholics at least) are called to be chaste in thought. "Blessed are the pure in heart..."

Amp
07-02-2003, 02:20 PM
You would think that the Fundies would want the Government to slap a "Mature Reading" label on that puppy.

UrbanChic
07-02-2003, 02:30 PM
If someone Photoshops a pic of a Bible with one of those ubiquitous parental advisory labels, I'll make it my desktop wallpaper for a month!

furt
07-02-2003, 02:45 PM
Ummm ... I don't guess too many normal, healthy girls actually get excited by the idea of donkey schlong, which is sort of the point of the verse.

Much like life, God and the Bible do not always give us what we expect or want. Part of faith is embracing this.

IzzyR
07-02-2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by richardc
In Ezekiel 23:20, the Bible says, "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses."

OK, I have just become more aware of this verse, and it is shocking me. This is almost pornography. As a Christian, I am supposed to believe that a holy and pure God inspired this particular verse. I am having some problems with that. Why would God need to mention and compare the penis sizes of men to donkeys and their ability to ejaculate to horses? Can you imagine youths reading this, especially female youths? This is gross. Why did God inspire a man to write this down? Couldn't He have omitted this verse? It seems so unnecessary, especially the part that compares their "emission" to horses.

I await some answers...It does not actually say this in the Bible. There is no reference to genitals, only to "flesh". The sentence is not comparing the "size" or "ability to ejaculate" to anything. It is comparing the people (unfavorably) to animals. As in "she went and had an affair with that piece of donkey meat". Or something like that.

Of course, you might quibble with this as well, and I don't intend to debate this. But I looked at this verse in the original Hebrew, and - just to see where you might have gotten it from - in the KJV. And it does not say what you say it does. So the question is - where did you get this from? Is it something you made up yourself, or is it something you picked up from some other anti-religious site?

I await some answers....

andros
07-02-2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by JuanitaTech

If someone Photoshops a pic of a Bible with one of those ubiquitous parental advisory labels, I'll make it my desktop wallpaper for a month!


Merry solstice, JT:

http://cafeshops.com/cp/store.aspx?s=landoverbaptist.50003

andros
07-02-2003, 03:06 PM
Is it something you made up yourself, or is it something you picked up from some other anti-religious site?


IzzyR, the line as quoted in the OP comes from the NIV (New Int'l Version) translation (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=Ezekiel+23&version=NIV). I don't have my study Bible to hand, so I can't speak to the process of translating that particular verse, but it most assuredly is not fabricated, and I rather think you owe the OP an apology.

richardc
07-02-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by IzzyR
It does not actually say this in the Bible. There is no reference to genitals, only to "flesh". The sentence is not comparing the "size" or "ability to ejaculate" to anything. It is comparing the people (unfavorably) to animals. As in "she went and had an affair with that piece of donkey meat". Or something like that.

Of course, you might quibble with this as well, and I don't intend to debate this. But I looked at this verse in the original Hebrew, and - just to see where you might have gotten it from - in the KJV. And it does not say what you say it does. So the question is - where did you get this from? Is it something you made up yourself, or is it something you picked up from some other anti-religious site?

I await some answers....

I did not make it up myself, but I might have read the verse on an errancy site.

Ezekiel 23
20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. (NIV)

Ezekiel 23:20: "...and doted upon her paramours there, whose members were like those of asses, and whose issue was like that of horses."(RSV)

If this is not what the Bible says, then why do these translations translate as they do?

richardc
07-02-2003, 03:17 PM
Thanks, andros.

IzzyR
07-02-2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by richardc
I did not make it up myself, but I might have read the verse on an errancy site.

Ezekiel 23
20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. (NIV)

Ezekiel 23:20: "...and doted upon her paramours there, whose members were like those of asses, and whose issue was like that of horses."(RSV)My apologies then. However, these translations are incorrect. The Hebrew word is basar, which means flesh.If this is not what the Bible says, then why do these translations translate as they do?Maybe you've got some lusty translators at work.

Seriously, I would guess that these translators decided that the word flesh was being used as a euphamism for genitals. You decide. (I don't think so, as above). But it any event, it most definitely does not say this in the Bible.

PatriotX
07-02-2003, 03:35 PM
What about the "issue" word?
I've seen that translated as semen.

IzzyR
07-02-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by SimonX
What about the "issue" word?
I've seen that translated as semen.I have no problem with the translation. But I think in context, the sentence is not referring to the amount of semen that a horse might have, but to the disgusting aspect of it. (I think the "size of the genitals" thing put the next description in an incorrect light.)

PatriotX
07-02-2003, 03:44 PM
I found this:
from 'basar' (1319 (http://sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRHEB13.htm#S1319)); flesh (from its freshness); by extension, body, person; also (by euphem.) the pudenda of a man:--body, (fat, lean) flesh(-ed), kin, (man-)kind, + nakedness, self, skin.
here:
sacrednamebible.com (http://sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRHEB13.htm#S1320)

and this:

1. flesh
1. of the body
1. of humans
2. of animals
2. the body itself
3. male organ of generation (euphemism)
4. kindred, blood-relations
5. flesh as frail or erring (man against God)
6. all living things
7. animals
8. mankind

from here:
bible.crosswalk.com (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01320)

robertliguori
07-02-2003, 03:45 PM
I'm afraid I'm with Dio here. Millenia (well, one millenium) of hate, opression, and fear based on biblical approval of killing, and you worry about Christian girls having impure thoughts?

PatriotX
07-02-2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by IzzyR
I have no problem with the translation. But I think in context, the sentence is not referring to the amount of semen that a horse might have, but to the disgusting aspect of it. (I think the "size of the genitals" thing put the next description in an incorrect light.)
Yeah, but what is the Hebrew word?

IzzyR
07-02-2003, 03:52 PM
zirimah (actually zirimas - "issue of")

Polycarp
07-02-2003, 04:02 PM
Are we not fortunate that there are no Biblically literate e-mail spammers?
NOW GET AN EZEK. 23:20 DICK!!!
:D

Diogenes the Cynic
07-02-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by IzzyR
I have no problem with the translation. But I think in context, the sentence is not referring to the amount of semen that a horse might have, but to the disgusting aspect of it. (I think the "size of the genitals" thing put the next description in an incorrect light.)
Why would horse semen be any more "disgusting" than human semen.

I think you're grasping at straws here. When I hear "ejaculations like horses," I'm thinking quantity...and come on..."flesh like a donkey" = donkey schlong, let's not kid each other. It's certainly a reasonble interpretation given the context.

This verse may not be fit for Sunday School (or Shul) but it wasn't intended to be. It's ancient propaganda. It's supposed to be disgusting.

Priam
07-02-2003, 04:24 PM
Ok I was taught that, when unsure of a word's meaning, one should look at the context.

EZEK 23:18-23 (NIV)

18 When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her nakedness, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister. 19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose (disputed word) were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. 21 So you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when in Egypt your bosom was caressed and your young breasts fondled.

Now, given the context is that of prostitution, and the attributes of donkeys, does "flesh" really sound all that likely? Donkey flesh is not all that remarkable, but donkey dick certainly is. It falls into the same category as a discussion about someone's "manhood". It could be quite possible that a person speaking of how a lady "ripped off his manhood" means she took away the abstract concept of his masculinity, but is it very likely given the context? No. Not really.

CarnalK
07-02-2003, 04:29 PM
I swear I submitted this before DtC but I had a timeout :), and instead of a triple post(as is the norm) it didn't post at all so:

IzzyR-I have no problem with the translation. But I think in context, the sentence is not referring to the amount of semen that a horse might have, but to the disgusting aspect of it. (I think the "size of the genitals" thing put the next description in an incorrect light.)


May I request more explaining? What exactly is the "disgusting aspect" of an issue like a horse. Since it is not saying they literally have the issue of a horse, amount is the only purpose I can see for this simile.

You clearly think something else; what is that?

Kalhoun
07-02-2003, 04:34 PM
Heh. Diogenes said "donkey schlong and horse jizz". Heh.

IzzyR
07-02-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by CarnalK
May I request more explaining? What exactly is the "disgusting aspect" of an issue like a horse. Since it is not saying they literally have the issue of a horse, amount is the only purpose I can see for this simile.

You clearly think something else; what is that?I don't know what to tell you guys - it's hard to argue about why something is or is not disgusting. I think it is. I think most people would think it is. Particularly in the context of taking it into one's body, as is being discussed here. YMMV.

I could almost swear that in our very own BBQ Pit animal semen is frequently invoked as an insult. But I am loath to make a search on the subject.

I am somewhat amused by the suggestions that "donkey flesh" is obviously a reference to size of genitals. I suspect projection of some sort. ;)

I'm pretty sure there are other examples in the Bible of people to be compared unfavorably to animals (mostly dogs, though). I don't recall any references to size of genitals.

CarnalK
07-02-2003, 04:52 PM
Oh and for more context for those to lazy to look themselves:

Ezekiel 23:21(NIV)
So you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when in Egypt your bosom was caressed and your young breasts fondled.
Ezekiel 23:21(KJV)
Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.

Okeydokey, that squares with what my Mom said about Egyptians.(j/k kinda)

Oh and furt-Ummm ... I don't guess too many normal, healthy girls actually get excited by the idea of donkey schlong, which is sort of the point of the verse.

I'll need you to swear that you are a healthy girl before I can give your comment any credence. ;)

richardc
07-02-2003, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by CarnalK
Oh and furt-Ummm ... I don't guess too many normal, healthy girls actually get excited by the idea of donkey schlong, which is sort of the point of the verse.

I'll need you to swear that you are a healthy girl before I can give your comment any credence. ;)

Okay, maybe not a donkey schlong per se, but what about a large penis?

Wolfian
07-02-2003, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by furt
...donkey schlong....

Band name or bad 80s video game based porn.


In case anyone was wondering:

23:20 For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses. -KJV

"Doted upon." I'm seeing felilato (read sodomy) or some other non-child making activity in that phrase, also big no-noes.

clairobscur
07-02-2003, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by richardc
It is not just about the grossness. It is the sex. I can't imagine Christian women, especially young Christian women, reading this verse and what kind of lustful thoughts it might produce in them; therefore, I cannot see how God could inspire such a thing, especially when Christians (well, Catholics at least) are called to be chaste in thought. "Blessed are the pure in heart..."



Then perhaps christians are wrong and God doesn't actually require them to be that much chaste in thoughts. Or perhaps God isn't really worried about donkey-like erections, and horse-like emissions, nor easily grossed out, but only his followers are.

Or possibily God never inspired these words at the first place but they were just written by uninspired, ordinary, people.

PatriotX
07-02-2003, 09:33 PM
Since basar is a known euphemism for penis and it certainly fits the context I don't see why it shouldn't be viewed as a suitable translation.

That being said, I certainly don't think that this verse is "almost pornography." richardc perhaps you're a prude.

And no, I will NOT cite examples of pornography for comparison.

richardc
07-02-2003, 09:48 PM
Well, I'm not a prude. I suppose that it is not almost pornography. My mistake. The definition of pornography that I had in mind when I wrote that was not correct then.

PatriotX
07-02-2003, 09:54 PM
I dunno. I think that the def of porn is highly debatable. I just don't think it's pornographic, IMHO. YMMV. Graphic, yes.

furt
07-02-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by CarnalK
I'll need you to swear that you are a healthy girl before I can give your comment any credence.
Sadly, neither healthy nor female ...

Is there something you'd like to say on the (ahem) issue at hand? :dubious:

errata
07-02-2003, 11:05 PM
I gotta back up the NIV translation. Only, instead of the medical terminology, I think a more accurate translation should have used a euphemism as well.
"whose bumticklers were like those of donkeys" maybe?

CarnalK
07-02-2003, 11:44 PM
furt-"Is there something you'd like to say on the (ahem) issue at hand? "

Just expressing an extremely natural curiosity as to the normal healthy girls' opinions on donkey-like schlongs.

Extremely natural I said. Now move along.

mama2nate&anna
07-03-2003, 12:47 AM
Um, as someone who (prior to marriage) was a healthy young virginal Christian woman I can attest to the idea that a huge penis is not, in fact, something that would have caused me to fantasize. I would have been grossed out and a bit frightened. I could never understand why men bragged about the size of their genitals. Most virgins would be terrified at the thought of some enormous man. Ack!

Really Not All That Bright
07-03-2003, 04:04 AM
Look... you all need to relearn that old rule: "stuff in the Bible is okay, because it's a really old book".

Donkey members and horse semen and virgins, oh my!

Anyway... suppose the word is "flesh"... if the donkeys' penises aren't being described, its likely that the horses' ejaculate isn't either- couldn't it be donkey flesh and horse, er, shite?

Seeing how the purpose of the verse is to inspire a sense of "eww" that makes a little more sense...

Diogenes the Cynic
07-03-2003, 08:35 AM
She doted on lovers whose flesh was like donkey flesh and who crapped like horses? :confused:

Yeah, that makes sense... :rolleyes:

Diogenes the Cynic
07-03-2003, 08:49 AM
From bible.crosswalk.com (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02231&version=kjv):
Zirmah:flow, issue
issue (of seminal discharge)
The most reasonable translation of this verse is that it's talking about guys who are hung like donkeys and come like horses. Any other reading is just squeamish, wishful thinking.

IzzyR
07-03-2003, 08:53 AM
So I went home last night and looked up some of the classical (Jewish) Biblical commentators. And sure enough, they mostly interpret flesh as a euphemism for genitals, and issue of horses as a reference to the frequency of it (apparently horses go at it relatively often). IOW, oversexed.

I therefore retract all my previous posts to this thread.

My humble apologies to all posters and readers of this thread, and again to the OP.

:o

Shodan
07-03-2003, 11:56 AM
No problems, IzzyR.

The Bible is chock-full of stuff like that, which sounds rather shocking to modern sensibilities.

I had a rather similar reaction to 1 Samuel 20:30-31. King Saul is angry at his son Jonathan for assisting David to escape when Saul wants to kill him so as to ensure the throne will descend to Jonathan.

Saul shouts at his son a phrase that the RSV and ESV translate (rather daintily) as -
You son of a perverse, rebellious woman!
Imagine my shock at realizing that an almost exact translation into American English would be -
You son of a bitch!Such language in the Bible (blushes).

It was a radically different culture. I think God may have left these things in the Bible to keep us from forgetting that.

Regards,
Shodan

PS - Polycarp - So you're the one sending me those e-mails!

Hee haw.

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