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View Full Version : Re J. Lynch's anal rape - Author claims medical evidence - Her Iraqi Docs say BS


astro
11-07-2003, 02:07 PM
How diagnostically, can you tell that someone was anally raped from evidence eight days after the fact? I ask because the Iraqi docs in charge of her are saying this claim is nonsense.

Medical checks reveal Lynch's rape hell (http://theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,7792360%255E401,00.html)

Bricker
11-07-2003, 02:15 PM
Tearing and scar tissue from an anal rape is absolutely visible to an exam weeks after the event.

There are plenty of people that have been prosecuted with such evidence.

- Rick

astro
11-07-2003, 02:41 PM
I forgot to put in the link for the Iraqi doctor's statements

JESSICA LYNCH RAPE CLAIM CHALLENGED BY DOCTORS WHO SAVED HER LIFE - (http://drudgereport.com/flash2.htm)

Iraqi doctors who treated Jessica Lynch dispute claims made in her biography that she was raped.

Dr. Mahdi Khafazji, who performed surgery on Lynch's fractured femur said he found no signs of sexual assault. Khafazji said he examined her extensively and would have noticed signs of rape, and said the examination turned up no semen. "She was injured at about 7 in the morning," Khafazji said. "What kind of animal would do it to a person suffering from multiple injuries?"

Dr. Jamal al-Saeidi, head of the orthopedic department at the now closed Military Hospital, recounts: "When she was brought there she was fighting for her life. She was in shock because of the severity of her injury... Her clothes were not torn, buttons had not come off, her pants were zipped up."

Al-Saeidi also said he found no evidence of rape during an examination -- though he said he was not looking for evidence of a sexual assault. "We had a few minutes, golden minutes to save her," he said.

"Why are they saying such things?" the hospital's deputy director Dr. Khodheir al-Hazbar said. "We were good to her."

Phlosphr
11-07-2003, 02:50 PM
JESSICA Lynch was brutally raped by her Iraqi captors.
That is the shocking revelation in I Am a Soldier, Too, the much-anticipated biography of the former POW.

First couple lines of article.

"Jessi lost three hours," Bragg wrote. "She lost them in the snapping bones, in the crash of the Humvee, in the torment her enemies inflicted on her after she was pulled from it."

A paragraph down.

Now IIRC, it was a doctor who saved her and protected her. She blacked out from crash to wake up, so who is saying she was raped? This cinematic author I'm sure has movie rights...this looks like a massive distortion from the truth. I watched J.LYNCH speak to Diane Sawyer in an exclusive and I can not recall this being mentioned or eluded to.

Mr. Moto
11-07-2003, 03:05 PM
So far, in combat with Iraqi forces, there have been three American women taken alive as prisoners of war.

It is an indisputed fact that two of these women were sexually assaulted by Iraqi soldiers.

Why is it such a stretch to believe that the third one was as well?

Revtim
11-07-2003, 03:19 PM
I wasn't able to find any cite of the other rapes of American soldiers with a couple cursory Google News searches, Mr. Moto. Can you provide one?

Revtim
11-07-2003, 03:25 PM
I wasn't able to find any cite of the other rapes of American soldiers with a couple cursory Google News searches, Mr. Moto. Can you provide one?

edwino
11-07-2003, 03:52 PM
I know that there were sexual abuses, not rapes per se. I recently saw an interview with one of the women taken prisoner in the Gulf War, and she was fondled. I don't recall rape though.

sailor
11-07-2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Moto
Why is it such a stretch to believe that the third one was as well? That is not the question being asked. The question is not "could it have happened?" but "did it, in fact, happen?"

mrbuddylee
11-07-2003, 04:22 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/11/07/lynch.interview/

A few tidbits:

"It does [bother me] that they used me as a way to symbolize all this stuff," she said. "It's wrong.

"I don't know why they filmed it, or why they say the things they say, you know. ... All I know was that I was in that hospital hurting. ... I needed help. I wanted out of there. It didn't matter to me if they would have come in shirts and blank guns; it wouldn't have mattered to me. I wanted out of there."




In her ABC interview, Lynch also responded to the revelation in a new book about her ordeal that she may have been sexually assaulted during her captivity.

She told ABC's Diane Sawyer that she does not remember being raped and "even just the thinking about that, that's too painful." She also said that she was not beaten during her captivity and that one nurse in the hospital even sang to her.

The book, "I Am A Soldier, Too," an authorized biography written by Rick Bragg, cites a medical report that shows Lynch was sexually assaulted.

Army officials would not comment on the account. A spokesman said that federal privacy laws prevent the military from discussing hospital records that would contain such details.

Bragg resigned as a national correspondent for The New York Times in May after the newspaper determined he had written a story for publication under his byline that had largely been reported by an unpaid, uncredited freelancer. Bragg insisted that he was following newspaper policy and did nothing wrong.

lieu
11-07-2003, 04:31 PM
Do we know that the injuries definately occurred before the alleged rape? Could she have been raped first and then beaten to the point of broken bones?

They asked "who would do this to someone with multiple injuries?" Well, maybe they didn't.

toadspittle
11-07-2003, 04:42 PM
Do we know that the injuries definately occurred before the alleged rape? Could she have been raped first and then beaten to the point of broken bones?


Or for that matter, been raped by an American GI some time before the crash? Or just had some crazy rough sex?

An ugly case altogether.

Duck Duck Goose
11-07-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Moto
So far, in combat with Iraqi forces, there have been three American women taken alive as prisoners of war.
I can't find three American women taken alive as Iraqi POWs. I can only find Jessica Lynch and Shoshana Johnson. Lori Piestewa was killed in the same action that saw Lynch and Johnson captured. Is there another woman?
It is an indisputed fact that two of these women were sexually assaulted by Iraqi soldiers. Well, unless Google and I are missing something really huge here, it is not an "undisputed fact", since Lynch's rape appears to be in question, and I can't find anything that suggests that Johnson was raped.

So, cite?

Why is it such a stretch to believe that the third one was as well? Because...the first two may not have been?

Maybe you've got the wrong war? Rhonda Cornum (http://pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/war/5.html) suffered "sexual indecencies" while she was a prisoner during the Gulf War. But Melissa Rathbun-Nealy (http://telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/25/wpow225.xml)says she was well-treated during her captivity.

minty green
11-07-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by edwino
I recently saw an interview with one of the women taken prisoner in the Gulf War, and she was fondled.That was undoubtedly Col. Rhonda Cornum, a flight surgeon who suffered two broken arms after her helocopter was shot down, then got kissed and had her breasts fondled by an Iraqi soldier during transfer. She's relatively dismissive of the incident, saying "I just was amazed that he would want to do that ... That was my first thought really. Just amazed. And that was really my biggest concern. I mean, a lot of people make a big deal about getting molested, and I'm ... sure it's a ... it's a big deal. ...But in the heirarchy of things that were going wrong, that was pretty low on my list." That interview is here (http://pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/war/5.html).

If you examine a list of Gulf War I POWs (http://nationalalliance.org/gulf/returnees.htm), you will only find one other female POW. That was Melissa Rathburn-Nealy (now Coleman), who says that she was not sexually abused (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/Primetime/iraq_POWs030323.html).

From Dubya Dubya II, I believe the only other female POW was Spc. Shoshana Johnson, captured in the same attack as Lynch. As far as I can determine, she has never reported any sexual abuse from her captivity.

There you have it: One woman with fondled breasts, and two with no sexual abuse at all. So much for Mr. Moto's "undisputed fact." More like "unsupported nonsense."


As for Lynch, the evidence of rape is very weak, and is directly contradicted by the attending physicians. In the absence of additional evidence, I believe Ms. Lynch and her co-author are mistaken in their conclusion.

moriah
11-07-2003, 05:14 PM
And if we're talking about what was 'likely' to have happened...

why would a male rapist choose anal rape over vaginal rape of a female victim?

Speaker for the Dead
11-07-2003, 05:46 PM
Because it inflicts more pain and is seen as more humiliating? Maybe his only purpose wasn't to get off.

Gorsnak
11-07-2003, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by lieu
Do we know that the injuries definately occurred before the alleged rape? Could she have been raped first and then beaten to the point of broken bones?

They asked "who would do this to someone with multiple injuries?" Well, maybe they didn't.
The injuries were from the Humvee crash, not from beating. I am not aware that there is any dispute over that point. Hence, if she was raped before the injuries, she was raped by a fellow soldier. Which, I suppose, is possible, but hardly likely.

lieu
11-07-2003, 07:03 PM
Thanks Gorsnak. Let me clarify that the scenario I was postulating was one in which she might have been captured, raped and beaten to the point of amnesia by the Iraquis, not by her fellow troops just prior to, or as they travelled into, combat. God, that's a disturbing thought I hadn't even considered and, probably like most, doubt that she'd ever be able to forget.

I don't personally have or know anyone with experience in these matters but from what I understand sometimes there can be some memory recall years or longer after the fact. Maybe someday that'll clear up some questions although, for Jessica's sake, I'm not so sure that we'd like to see that happen.

Eolbo
11-07-2003, 07:12 PM
Just seems like she is still being used to me, first as a propaganda device and now sensationalism to sell a book.

sailor
11-07-2003, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by minty green
In the absence of additional evidence, I believe Ms. Lynch and her co-author are mistaken in their conclusion. It seems she does not say she was raped and it was some creative writing on the part of the writer who has a history of that too.

Reeder
11-07-2003, 10:54 PM
Remember these rape allegations are from the same people who put out the story that she was a hero.

Take that for whatever you want to.

tomndebb
11-08-2003, 12:14 AM
these rape allegations are from the same people No, they are not.

I have long asserted that Bush & Co. has deliberately lied about their reasons for invading Iraq, distorting, manipulating, and fabricating "evidence" to rationalize their actions.

However, this book is the work of a single (not particularly credible) writer. I have seen no evidence that the Army or the Pentagon have made any claims regarding rape and the White House has certainly made no comments on the subject--not even pre-publicity leaks to tie in with the publication of the book.

Despising a group for dishonesty (even if the group richly earns the contempt they receive) should not blind one to the possibility that other people are quite capable of inventing "facts" for their own ends (such as hyping book sales).

AskNott
11-08-2003, 12:17 AM
A couple of hours ago, I considered saying something about the backwoods medicos of Iraq getting sloshed on rum to celebrate the fall of the Baathist regime, you know, the hick Iraqi daquiri docs thing, but I thought that would be over the top. So, never mind. Good luck, Jessica! You go, girl!

edwino
11-08-2003, 03:07 AM
minty green
Dat's da one.

AskNott
How long have you been waiting to use that line? Fess up. I'll admit to it making me chortle.

Reeder
11-08-2003, 08:24 AM
Are the medical records not from the military?

tomndebb
11-08-2003, 10:17 AM
Are the medical records not from the military? Sure, the military has medical records.

On the other hand, this being GQ and all, I would like to see third party confirmation that the medical records actually claim what Bragg has reported. It would also be interesting to see evidence that Bragg actually ever saw such medical records (given that the Army pretty much hid Lynch's actual injuries for months). It would also be useful, (if such a notation shows up in her medical records), to see demonstrated a connection between the Army doctor who included the information (if it is even there) and the administration if we are going to presume that the doctor(s) inserted false information into the medical record.

Certainly the pattern of making wild claims about another's experience only to have the actual participant deny the claim has been a standard feature of the whole let's-go-to-war propaganda machine for the last 15 months. However, in the interests of maintaining the factual nature of GQ, I think we ought to have evidence before we lay out innuendo.

jjimm
11-08-2003, 10:36 AM
Something that's never been clear to me: who exactly were her "captors"? If they were as ghastly and brutal as has been made out, why did allow her to get to hospital after "beating" and "raping" her? Why did they not hold her captive as a useful hostage (which, despite the telegenic and gung-ho nature of the raid on the hospital, she wasn't), or just kill her there and then? A very strange inconsistency.

But, according to the UK news media (Sky), the biography was "authorized" - is this actually the case?

tomndebb
11-08-2003, 10:53 AM
An authorized biography means only that the subject did not object to its writing and may have contributed to its creation. While a major celebrity would have the political/financial/legal power to actually control such a biography, it is unlikely that the typical citizen thrust into the limelight would think to have a controlling contract written. (It possibly implies that the subject may be paid from the proceeds, although that is not a necessary condition to be authorized.) Given that Pvt. (Pfc.?) Lynch is voluntarily distancing herself from some of the claims made in the book, I doubt that she or her family exercised the foresight to demand editorial control of its writing.

Omnipresent
11-08-2003, 11:41 AM
Ever since this story broke, something hasn't been right. Private Lynch deserves all the respect in the world for serving her country. But, something just doesn't smell right with this whole story.

I'm sooo tired of the media.

samclem
11-09-2003, 01:54 PM
This week's Time magazine also says that the anal rape probably happened.Sometime after the crash and before she was delivered to Nasiriyah hospital—a time period that could have been as long as three hours—she appeared to have been forcibly penetrated by someone or something: "The exam in Landstuhl," Dr. Greg Argyros, her primary doctor during her 100 days at Walter Reed Medical Center, told TIME, "indicated that the injuries were consistent with possible anal sexual assault."

margin
11-09-2003, 03:27 PM
This is a teensy weensy point, but whoever said her pants were zipped up when she arrived at the hospital is wrong. Army pants don't zip up; they button. Don't know how important that is, but there it is.

Mr. Moto
11-10-2003, 08:01 AM
I was working from reports that both women captured during the Gulf War were sexually assaulted.

I had also forgotten about Spc. Johnson.

Mea culpa.

RickJay
11-10-2003, 08:57 AM
Last I checked, Army combat pants had both a button and a zipper. Maybe the latest BDUs are different, I've been out of the loop a few years.

In any case, perhaps the reports of female POWs being raped is a reference to the PREVIOUS Gulf War?

margin
11-10-2003, 09:00 AM
I haven't been issued desert uniforms yet, but the woodland BDU's only have buttons. The MOPP suits have zippers, though.

Gee, I watch way too many crime shows on TV.

minty green
11-10-2003, 09:27 AM
We've been over that already, RickJay. Of the two female POWs in Gulf War I, one was kissed and groped but not raped, and the other was not sexually abused at all.

As for the Time article referenced by samclem, it only refers to the medical report from the Army doctors in Landstuhl. That kind of begs the question posed by the OP, which is how they could reach the rape conclusion so long after her injuries occurred, and whether that conclusion is valid in light of her Iraqi doctors' statements.

Gary T
11-10-2003, 09:48 AM
Re "zipped up": Presumably the Iraqi doctors were native Arabic speakers, with English as a second language or speaking through interpreters. If they didn't personally undress her (e.g., nurses did that) they likely didn't see exactly how her pants were fastened, only that they weren't unfastened. Most people are so accustomed to speaking of "zipping up," especially in the case of trousers, that they're likely to use the phrase regardless of the particular fasteners involved.

The point of all this -- I think it's a stretch to relegate "zipped" to only its most narrow, literal definition when dealing with an English language report quoting an Iraqi.

paul'smars
11-10-2003, 12:03 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jjimm
[B]Something that's never been clear to me: who exactly were her "captors"? If they were as ghastly and brutal as has been made out, why did allow her to get to hospital after "beating" and "raping" her? ...

Exactly. Why did all the others with her die, but she survived? Did they not kill her since she was a woman (damn those backwards people), but instead delivered her to a hospital??

If they did not kill her, just so they could rape her, then afterwards would they not destroy the evidence??

I do not know why, but just a question.

Diceman
11-10-2003, 12:46 PM
Given the way that Jessica Lynch has been exploited by the military, and given that Lynch herself doesn't think that she was mistreated, I'd say that the burden of proof is on the army doctors to prove that they aren't making this up. 'Till then, I'll beleive the attending physician in Iraq.

minty green
11-10-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by paul'smars
Exactly. Why did all the others with her die, but she survived? All the otehrs with her did not die. Lynch was captured along with five other members of the 507th. Her five colleagues were rescued, along with two downed helicopter crewmen, two weeks later in the city of Tikrit.

http://cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/13/sprj.irq.pows.freed/index.html

Chronos
11-10-2003, 03:47 PM
I'd say that the burden of proof is on the army doctors to prove that they aren't making this up.The burden isn't even on the Army doctors, as they aren't claiming anything. The burden is on the person making the claim, which so far as I can tell is just Rick Bragg.

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