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View Full Version : OK, Alanis isn't ironic... What about Futurama?


Leaper
07-24-2004, 08:49 PM
The following bits are from "The Robot Devil's Hands Are Idle Playthings":

[The Robot Devil spins a wheel with the name of every robot in the world to see whose hands Fry gets; it almost lands on Bender, but instead lands on the Robot Devil]

Robot Devil: Oh, what an appallingly ironic outcome.

Bender: It's not ironic; it's just coincidental!

[The Robot Devil makes a deal with Bender to give him an air horn. The first thing Bender does is blow it - right in Leela's face. Now she can't hear the opera Fry is composing in her honor with the Devil's hands]

Robot Devil: How delightfully ironic!

Bender: It's not ironic; it's just mean!

[The Robot Devil makes a deal with Leela: she gets robotic ears to hear Fry's opera in exchange for "her hand." The Robot Devil reveals that the fine print of the contract reveals that the deal was for her hand... in marriage.]

Bender (reading from a dictionary): "The use of words expressing something other than their literal intention." Now THAT is irony!

So, is Bender any better at irony than Alanis?

Kamino Neko
07-24-2004, 08:58 PM
Right up until the last one, presuming the Devil didn't rig up the wheel in the first situation, and accidentally rig it to land on him.

The last is just sneaky, not ironic, though.

Marley23
07-24-2004, 09:45 PM
Funny, I was just discussing this last night. Look at it this way: comedy writers are much more likely than songwriters to find a dictionary. ;)

Bender is spot on. It's just that he's not talking about what we normally think of when we think about/observe irony (or what purports to be irony). Definition numero uno in my dictionary is "the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning." Almost exactly what Bender says. I remember a high school English teachers who was more specific and called this verbal irony, but it's irony nonetheless. I'd say definition number four, "an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected" is the meaning we usually think of, and it's the one the Robot Devil tries to use. I guess it fits the first situation (the wheel), but not the others.

Kamino Neko
07-24-2004, 09:59 PM
Definition numero uno in my dictionary is "the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning."

The American Heritage dictionary makes the actual meaning of that one a lot clearer:

1

The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.



This is very different than simply giving only partial information, which is what the Devil did.

Marley23
07-24-2004, 10:17 PM
I think the Devil, being a sneaky jerk, did his best to make it sound like he was going to chop off Leela's hand. After all, he spent most of the episode trying to get hands to replace Fry's after he lost his own hands to Fry.

Marley23
07-24-2004, 10:22 PM
Does anyone happen to have a transcript of this episode? I'm trying to remember Leela's exact conversation with the RD at the coat room. Doesn't he make it sound as if he wants both of her hands, and then 'backs off' to only the left one?

Fiver
07-25-2004, 11:16 AM
I'd say definition number four, "an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected" is the meaning we usually think of,
And it's the meaning Alanis applies in her song.

I've always thought Alanis took a lot of unwarranted grief over that song.

Marley23
07-25-2004, 12:34 PM
And it's the meaning Alanis applies in her song.

I've always thought Alanis took a lot of unwarranted grief over that song.
Aside from the song sucking, she doesn't apply it correctly. I can't remember all the words now, but for example "10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife" doesn't meet the criteria. That's not ironic, it's just aggravating. A guy taking his first flight and the plane crashing is coincidence. There's nothing ironic about "rain on your wedding day," the two events are unrelated and it's not contrary to your expectations." Maybe it would be contrary to what you want. "A free ride when you've already paid" is nonsense.

Legolamb
07-25-2004, 06:15 PM
There's nothing ironic about "rain on your wedding day," the two events are unrelated and it's not contrary to your expectations.
Exactly. Way back when the song came out, a friend and I set about trying to add to Alanis' situations to make them truly ironic rather than, at best, coincidental or irritating. The best we could manage for that was (paraphrasing, I can't remember much of it at all anymore)
"It's like rain on your wedding day when you happen to be marrying a meteorological expert who predicted a heatwave for this day and as such arranged to have the wedding on it, in an area renowned for its harshly dry summers."

We felt even that fell horribly short.

matt_mcl
07-25-2004, 07:52 PM
Yeah, in a song about irony she doesn't mention one example of irony.

Ironic, cxu ne?

Leaper
07-25-2004, 07:57 PM
OK, we're getting off topic here. :)

To try to get it back on, I just have to say that the third incident from Futurama STILL doesn't seem like irony to me. For some reason, the first and second, despite the fact that most here seem to think they're not, feel a lot closer to what I think is irony.

Anyone? :)

Yumblie
07-25-2004, 08:29 PM
I don't think any of those are ironic. If I recall correctly, Bender reads out the defintion to irony on his own (in tune with the song!), not in response to any of those situations.

Atticus Finch
07-25-2004, 08:30 PM
"10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife" doesn't meet the criteria. That's not ironic, it's just aggravating.
That could be ironic. Let's say you're a surgeon who needs to do an emergency tracheotomy or something. All you need is a nice sharp knife, but you're in a spoon factory, surrounded by boxes and boxes of spoons. That's irony.

For a definition of irony, I usually refer people to the gag in the Simpsons where someone gets shot out of a cannon, bounces across the hard roof of a pillow factory and then gets run over by a truck filled with marshmallows. (And there's a similar one involving Luke Perry and an imploding pillow factory, but anyway...)

Marley23
07-25-2004, 09:00 PM
That could be ironic. Let's say you're a surgeon who needs to do an emergency tracheotomy or something. All you need is a nice sharp knife, but you're in a spoon factory, surrounded by boxes and boxes of spoons. That's irony.
Being surrounded by spoons when you're in a spoon factory is not ironic at all. ;)

I don't think any of those are ironic. If I recall correctly, Bender reads out the defintion to irony on his own (in tune with the song!), not in response to any of those situations.
Bender gives his definition because he says the Robot Devil's final move (with Leela's hand) is actually ironic. He says "The use words to convey something other than their literal intention- now THAT is irony!"

Bryan Ekers
07-25-2004, 09:51 PM
That could be ironic. Let's say you're a surgeon who needs to do an emergency tracheotomy or something. All you need is a nice sharp knife, but you're in a spoon factory, surrounded by boxes and boxes of spoons. That's irony.

I'm with Marley in pointing out that finding spoons in a spoon factory is hardly ironic.

Now, if it was a knife factory, and you needed a knife for emergency surgery, and then found out the company had been sold the day before to Spoons, inc. which had cleared out all the old inventory and retooled, so now all you had now was thousands of spoons, that would be ironic.

Pretty damn funny, too.

Atticus Finch
07-25-2004, 10:38 PM
You need a knife urgently, and haven't got one, but you're surrounded by a million spoons. Or ten thousand spoons, or whatever the hell is in the song.

That is irony.

Leaper
07-26-2004, 12:33 AM
Bender gives his definition because he says the Robot Devil's final move (with Leela's hand) is actually ironic. He says "The use words to convey something other than their literal intention- now THAT is irony!"

It STILL doesn't feel like irony to me (there are answers both ways so far). And the examples that folks say isn't, do.

Is THAT ironic? :D

Captain Amazing
07-26-2004, 12:57 AM
That is irony.

Nah, it's just unfortunate, unless you've got the reason to expect the existance of a knife.

Larry Borgia
07-26-2004, 01:13 AM
Here's what the O.E.D. sez:

Irony: consisting of Iron; of the nature of iron; resembling iron in some quality...

Wait, that's not it

here we go

1.) a figure of speech in which the intended meaning is the opposite of that expressed by the words used; usually taking the form of sarcasm or ridicule in which laudatory expressions are used to imply condemnation or contempt.

2.) (fig.) A condition of affairs or events of a character opposite to what was, or what might naturally be, expected; a contradictory outcome of events as if in mockery of the promise and fitness of things.

3.) In etymylogical sense: Dissimulation, pretence; esp. in reference to the dissimulation of ignorance practiced by Socrates as a means of confuting an adversary (Socratic irony).

Since the Robot Devil, and a lot of the TV audience (I imagine) were assuming it would be Bender that would have to sacrifice his hands, I think the outcome of the first example was Ironic, in the figuative sense of the word (#2).

So Bender was wrong and the Robot Devil was right after all.

Atticus Finch
07-26-2004, 01:35 AM
Nah, it's just unfortunate, unless you've got the reason to expect the existance of a knife.
From Larry's cite:
...a contradictory outcome of events as if in mockery of the promise and fitness of things.
A whole shitload of spoons when all you need is one little knife? That's ironic. It's a bit like being starving, having a whole lot of cans full of food but no can-opener.

Marley23
07-26-2004, 01:54 AM
A whole shitload of spoons when all you need is one little knife? That's ironic. It's a bit like being starving, having a whole lot of cans full of food but no can-opener.
The fact that you NEED a knife isn't the same as having a good reason to EXPECT one. That's the key difference as far as I'm concerned. The definition Larry cites has become the one used most by the populace at large, but it's a much less precise meaning (and you can find many people, not just robots like Bender, who say that it's not really irony). By that definition any almost surprising outcome is ironic.

Atticus Finch
07-26-2004, 02:34 AM
The need for / expectation of something has nothing to do with it.

Is my second example (cans, no opener) ironic? How about my Simpsons one, in my first post in this thread? Is that ironic? How about the famous Twilight Zone ending where the last man on earth, who loves to read, ends up in a library but with broken glasses?

I think all of these are ironic, and they all fit the general definition of the actual events mocking one's sense of what ought to be. There ought to be a knife, an opener, the marshmallow truck ought to be soft, the man ought to be able to read.

I think I've just used the word "ought" more in the last two lines than I have in my entire life.

Marley23
07-26-2004, 02:42 AM
I guess it comes down to this: definitions change according to popular usage, and these days irony has come to fit some situations that it wouldn't have previously included. Bender is using the older definition, by which the other stuff - the stuff the Robot Devil likes so much and also references in his first appearance on the show - isn't 'real' irony.

Miller
07-26-2004, 02:46 AM
And it's the meaning Alanis applies in her song.

I've always thought Alanis took a lot of unwarranted grief over that song.

It's worth pointing out that the only reason it's in the dictionary, is that people like Alanis so consistently misuse it.

The last example that Bender gives is irony in its simplest form: The sentence deliberatly constructed to convey a meaning that was not the meaning intended. The fact that it was essentially impossible for anyone but the Robot Devil to pick up on the irony (being "sneaky") is irrelevent. Sarcasm is a cheap form of irony. Jonathan Swift's satire, "A Modest Proposal" employs irony. No permutation of trachaeotomy patients and spoon factories is, traditionally speaking, ironic. None of the verses in Alanis Morrisette's song are ironic, although you could argue that the chorus is.

That said, the fact of the matter is that usage determines meaning, not the opposite. All the stuff Robot Devil said was ironic really were ironic, because irony no longer only means "The use of words expressing something other than their literal intention." It now also means "A condition of affairs or events of a character opposite to what was, or what might naturally be, expected; a contradictory outcome of events as if in mockery of the promise and fitness of things." Because that's how most people use it. And I think this is a good thing, because we need a term to describe the second definition more than we need a term to describe the first.

bienville
07-26-2004, 03:19 AM
Irony: consisting of Iron; of the nature of iron; resembling iron in some quality...

So if the spoons were made of iron, that would be ironic. :confused:



Perhaps the Robot Devil was made of iron while all the other robots were made of some other metal, so when it turns out that Fry is to get the Robot Devil's hands it is, in fact, ironic. :confused:

Miller
07-26-2004, 03:24 AM
Perhaps the Robot Devil was made of iron while all the other robots were made of some other metal, so when it turns out that Fry is to get the Robot Devil's hands it is, in fact, ironic. :confused:

If that were the meaning RB intended when he said it was ironic, then the statement would indeed be ironic. If he meant it the literary sense, then it wasn't. See? Simple.

tim314
07-26-2004, 06:34 AM
It STILL doesn't feel like irony to me (there are answers both ways so far). And the examples that folks say isn't, do.

Is THAT ironic? :D

There are (at least) two definitions of irony. One is more like what most people call sarcasm. That is the definition Bender is referring to.

However, generally with this form of irony, you aren't being deliberately deceptive. For instance, if you were to say "You're a real genius, aren't you?" with a sarcastic tone to someone who's being an idiot, that would be ironic. But you aren't trying to trick them -- you want them to understand that they're an idiot. I don't think the robot devil's deception of Leela qualifies. Not just because he's deliberately deceptive, but because what he says is literally true, it's just not what she thought he meant.

The other definition of irony is when a situation goes against your expectations. I'm explaining it poorly, but hopefully you know what I mean. The wheel landing on the robot devil after he had told Fry "I'm sure it won't land on anyone you know" in a way that indicated he believed it would land on Bender was ironic, in my opinion. If it had just landed on the Robot Devil without him intending and expecting it to land on Bender, then it wouldn't have been ironic, just coincidental as Bender said.

The scheme where he deafens Leela isn't ironic, because it was all planned to happen that way. So at least for the Robot Devil it was perfectly in line with his expectations.

Ike Witt
07-26-2004, 08:38 AM
So if the spoons were made of iron, that would be ironic. :confused:

Perhaps the Robot Devil was made of iron while all the other robots were made of some other metal, so when it turns out that Fry is to get the Robot Devil's hands it is, in fact, ironic. :confused:

Well you have to remember that Bender is 30% iron.

cmkeller
07-26-2004, 11:19 AM
Marley23:

"A free ride when you've already paid" is nonsense.

It's not nonsense. It may not be ironic, but it's still in line with the other examples in the song to want to go somewhere, pay for a ticket, and then, before the trip, discover that you could get there for free. (And presumably the ticket is non-refundable)

Marley23
07-26-2004, 11:54 AM
It's not nonsense. It may not be ironic, but it's still in line with the other examples in the song to want to go somewhere, pay for a ticket, and then, before the trip, discover that you could get there for free. (And presumably the ticket is non-refundable)
If she'd explained it as you did, I agree, it wouldn't be nonsense. Even if she'd sang "It's finding out the ride could've been free when you've already paid," it would have fit the bill. But that isn't what she says. She just says "it's a free ride when you've already paid." We don't know that the ride was originally offered for free or something, and we don't know that it's an actual mode of transportation or a figurative "free ride." The way she says it doesn't make sense - it's NOT a free ride if you've already paid.

Shade
07-26-2004, 12:14 PM
I would say the spoon example could be ironic because you would normally expect to find knives and spoons together -- so you'd think something like "Oh good! A spoon, there will obviously be a knife near here. Damn, not in this case."

I don't think the free ticket example is ironic, unless they're more linked that mentioned, but I think it makes perfect sense. Yes, the ride isn't free, but you can still say you were being offered a free ride.

The "hand in marriage one" -- I'm not convinced. If "irony" really used to mean "words contrary to actual meaning," then OK, but I don't think anyone has said this, they've just said that the dictionary says something like that -- which I think is a simplification of "contrary words carrying that meaning." Like, if I say "Yeah, I'm sure you're really smart" sarcastically (irony? sarcasm, anyway) vs. not sarcasticly, which is just lying.

Marley23
07-26-2004, 12:34 PM
I don't think the free ticket example is ironic, unless they're more linked that mentioned, but I think it makes perfect sense. Yes, the ride isn't free, but you can still say you were being offered a free ride.
But you weren't offered a free ride. You found out about it later (that expectation thing again). Which would make you go "aww, dammit!" - and that's the standard for irony she uses. :p

The "hand in marriage one" -- I'm not convinced. If "irony" really used to mean "words contrary to actual meaning," then OK, but I don't think anyone has said this, they've just said that the dictionary says something like that -- which I think is a simplification of "contrary words carrying that meaning." Like, if I say "Yeah, I'm sure you're really smart" sarcastically (irony? sarcasm, anyway) vs. not sarcasticly, which is just lying.
That IS what irony means (it's not 'used to'). That's why that definition is in the dictionary in the first place, and a bunch of us have said that. The Robot Devil is not lying. He does want her hand - he just doesn't want to chop it off. He wants it in the metaphorical sense of 'taking someone's hand in marriage.' If you tell someone "you're smart" when you don't, that's lying. If you say "you're smart" while indicating with your tone of voice that you don't think that's really true, then you're being ironic. Beezlebot does something more complicated, but he's still using the words to mean something non-literal.

Marley23
07-26-2004, 12:43 PM
That could be ironic. Let's say you're a surgeon who needs to do an emergency tracheotomy or something. All you need is a nice sharp knife, but you're in a spoon factory, surrounded by boxes and boxes of spoons. That's irony.
I would say the spoon example could be ironic because you would normally expect to find knives and spoons together -- so you'd think something like "Oh good! A spoon, there will obviously be a knife near here. Damn, not in this case."
Granted this is The Academic Pursuits Message Board, where we make more stretches than Richard Simmons - but let's face it, these are giant reaches. If you're a surgeon doing a tracheotomy in a spoon factory instead of, say, a hospital, you're a moron. ;) In any case shall we say it's highly doubtful Alanis (or Glen Ballard, who probably wrote the damn song) were thinking of such an involved scenario when this piece of crap was put to paper. Neither of the above are ironic to begin with, but even if it's possible to somehow twist the original line into an irony, it won't be in a context resembling the original (although I admit we don't know EXACTLY what was meant when the song was written - yet another one of its faults). In other words, you guys are using the words to convey something other than their real intention - so your interpretations are ironic.

jjimm
07-26-2004, 12:56 PM
To quote my closer personal friend*, comedian Ed Byrne:"Like a traffic jam when you're already late."

That's not ironic, it's just a pain in the hole, that's what that is. When was the last time you were late for something, got stuck in a traffic jam and said "Look at the irony on this, there's irony for ya! I'll tell ya I was in a fierce ironic traffic jam the other day I'll tell ya. The irony was ninety!"

No, there's nothing ironic about being stuck in a traffic jam when you're late for something. Unless you're a town planner. If you were a town planner and you were on your way to a seminar of town planners at which you were giving a talk on how you solved the problem of traffic congestion in your area, but couldn't get to it because you were stuck in a traffic jam, that'd be well ironic. "I'm sorry I'm late - you'll never guess..."

"It's like rain on your wedding day." Only if you're marrying a weatherman and he set the date.

I could go on and I will.

A no-smoking sign on your cigarette break, that's inconsiderate office management. A no-smoking sign in a cigarette factory - irony. It's not a difficult concept, Alanis. It's very rare you see an ironic no-smoking sign, although if you ever see one of those that say "thank-you for not smoking" and you are, that's fairly ironic.

The best line in that song has got to be the line "It's like 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife." That's not ironic, that's just bloody stupid.

How big is your sink, Alanis? We haven't got 10,000 spoons beween us, have we? What do you need this knife for? To stab the bloke who keeps leaving spoons all over your house. But we'll give her the benefit of the doubt. Imagine you needed a knife for something, couldn't find one cause all you find was 10,000 spoons. Could happen. And therefore you couldn't do whatever it was you needed the knife for - then the next day it turned out that a spoon would have done.*Well OK, vague personal acquaintance.

Shade
07-26-2004, 03:02 PM
That IS what irony means (it's not 'used to'). That's why that definition is in the dictionary in the first place, and a bunch of us have said that. The Robot Devil is not lying. He does want her hand - he just doesn't want to chop it off. He wants it in the metaphorical sense of 'taking someone's hand in marriage.' If you tell someone "you're smart" when you don't, that's lying. If you say "you're smart" while indicating with your tone of voice that you don't think that's really true, then you're being ironic. Beezlebot does something more complicated, but he's still using the words to mean something non-literal.The contrary-words definition from the OED is "A figure of speech in which the intended meaning is the opposite of that expressed by the words used; usually taking the form of sarcasm or ridicule in which laudatory expressions are used to imply condemnation or contempt. "

I interpreted that to mean that the meaning conveyed, as of speaking, is different; not that a later revealed meaning is different. I expect I was making a mistake... however, to help me understand you, can you think of any more examples where the meaning contradicted by the words isn't evident in their saying, but is ironic rather than just confusing or lying?

Marley23
07-26-2004, 03:34 PM
can you think of any more examples where the meaning contradicted by the words isn't evident in their saying, but is ironic rather than just confusing or lying?
Not offhand- you don't see it in real-life much (it's in TV and the movies all the time). The Devil isn't lying - he really does want Leela's hand. Well, not really, it's a bargaining chip to him. But he's doing the very typically Devil-ish thing of "ah-ha, you'll see how foolish it is to take me at my word when I'm going to twist it later."

[The Robot Devil spins a wheel with the name of every robot in the world to see whose hands Fry gets; it almost lands on Bender, but instead lands on the Robot Devil]

Robot Devil: Oh, what an appallingly ironic outcome.

Bender: It's not ironic; it's just coincidental!
Ready for a simple conclusion to this discussion? Good, neither was I. It occurs to me that this may be ironic to us without being ironic to Bender.

As the audience, having seen many similar Faustian bargains go awry on TV, we expect Bender's name to come up. (I watched this episode a few days ago, and my roommate said "It's gonna be Bender" as he wandered by the TV.) The show cleverly plays with that, since Bender's name is the last one before the Robot Devil's and the spinner pauses on it for a moment. Then we get the surprise of the spinner moving one more notch. So it's not what we expected, because we expected the 'surprise' selection of Bender. The Devil, having done this sort of thing before, probably thinks it should be Bender as well, since he's very into the whole irony thing.
Bender, though he's probably watched a lot of The Scary Door, has different expectations - he doesn't anticipate the cliche outcome because he's not that self-aware. So to him, it's just a coincidence that the Robot Devil loses instead.

Gadarene
07-26-2004, 06:56 PM
jjimm, Ed Byrne sounds hilarious. Any way an American such as myself can get my hands on some of his stuff?

Shade
07-26-2004, 07:18 PM
Not offhand- you don't see it in real-life much (it's in TV and the movies all the time). The Devil isn't lying - he really does want Leela's hand. Well, not really, it's a bargaining chip to him. But he's doing the very typically Devil-ish thing of "ah-ha, you'll see how foolish it is to take me at my word when I'm going to twist it later."I say it's lying. Though I haven't seen the episode, so correct me if I'm misinterpreting. Robodevil says "blah bah blah Leela's hand blah" which he knows and intendeds that everyone will think mean literal hand. The fact that in a different context, it turns out to mean something else doesn't make it not lying. The fact that the statement is interpretable in different ways might make it irony -- we're still discusssing that.

But 'lie' isn't just what the sentance means out of context, communication includes context.

Miller
07-26-2004, 07:21 PM
jjimm, Ed Byrne sounds hilarious. Any way an American such as myself can get my hands on some of his stuff?

Assuming I don't have him confused with another Irish stand-up, I believe he's been a on the Conan O'Brian show a few times.

Mbossa
07-26-2004, 09:18 PM
The last line of the second verse of Ironic:

And as the plane crashed down, he thought, "well, isn't this nice?"

That was a rather ironic thought, dont ya think?

Marley23
07-27-2004, 06:45 PM
Shade, the context doesn't change. The Devil meant one thing and Leela thought he meant another.

Mbossa: it's ironic in the "screws with our sense of fairness/what ought to be" sense, which is pretty much the only one Alanis uses in the song. According to the other definitions, no.

Miller
07-27-2004, 06:53 PM
Mbossa: it's ironic in the "screws with our sense of fairness/what ought to be" sense, which is pretty much the only one Alanis uses in the song. According to the other definitions, no.

No, that one works. Because it isn't nice that the place is crashing. It actually really sucks. So that passenger's thoughts would be ironic.

Leaper
07-27-2004, 06:55 PM
So irony is, or can be, equivalent to sarcasm?

Shade
07-27-2004, 09:16 PM
Shade, the context doesn't change. The Devil meant one thing and Leela thought he meant another.I'm sorry, I haven't seen the episode. I assumed there was small print or something that was later revealed. SOMETHING obviously clued them in, even if it was having it explained to them. That's what I meant.

If I say "A" and "A" can mean B or C, but I actually mean C, but it's obvious though false that when I say it that I mean B, that's lying. Is that not lying? Or is that not what he did? Am I insane?

Miller
07-27-2004, 09:20 PM
So irony is, or can be, equivalent to sarcasm?

Sarcasm is a kind of irony. All sarcasm is ironic, but not everything that is ironic is sarcastic.

Marley23
07-27-2004, 09:40 PM
I'm sorry, I haven't seen the episode. I assumed there was small print or something that was later revealed. SOMETHING obviously clued them in, even if it was having it explained to them. That's what I meant.
Of course there was fine print - this is the (Robot) Devil we're talking about. ;)

If I say "A" and "A" can mean B or C, but I actually mean C, but it's obvious though false that when I say it that I mean B, that's lying. Is that not lying? Or is that not what he did? Am I insane?
What we might call this in the everyday world is a lie of omission.
The Devil didn't SAY he wanted to chop Leela's hand off. He said he wanted her hand and left it at that, and she took it that way. It was partial information, yes. To Bender, watching the drama unfold, it was ironic because the Robot Devil had used the words to convey something other than their literal intention.

SmackFu
07-27-2004, 10:44 PM
This is why I don't call anything ironic anymore.

jjimm
07-28-2004, 04:11 AM
This is why I don't call anything ironic anymore.Heh, a song that's supposed to be about irony has precluded you from using the word 'irony'.

How ironic.

Yeah, Ed has appeared on Conan O'Brien a number of times. Don't know if he gigs the US, but he usually appears at the festival in Montreal (where he's been verbally lambasted by Alanis Morisette fans). Not sure if he has any DVDs out or anything. Here's (http://edbyrne.com/) his website.

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