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View Full Version : I fucking, fuck, fuck fucking HATE Invisible Fences!!!!


Phlosphr
08-13-2004, 09:20 AM
On my new daily run around the block I have discovered several new-to-me things about my quiet little coastal Connecticut Neighborhood.

1) Neighbor X a half mile away has an Invisible Fence.

2) Neighbor X a half mile away has two (2) large male Doberman Pinschers.

3) Neighbor X's Dobermans like to run full blast at passers by stopping inches before mauling and bark at a pitch that would make most vomit.


So there I am, loving the nice pre-autumn morning, running along pleasant street, when out from behind their lovely black raised ranch 2 large Doberman's run out full sprint towards me.

I couldn't escape if I wanted to. I was breakfast plain and simple. I half stopped in the middle of the road and braced myself for the impending doom. I knew I could get away, but certainly not unscathed. I'd have plenty of stitches and a whollup of good story.

Said Dobermans stopped short and barked mercilessly as they frothed at the mouth, alerting the owner inside to come out and call them to order.

Cardiac Arrest Subverted, I noticed the little black boxes attached to their collars...and knew there was an invisible fence around this yard protecting passers by from being mauled.

I didn't even hear the owners apologies. I only heard myself within my own head saying..."Where the fuck are your little flags encircling your yard alerting people to your invisible fence? Where are those little fucking flags assuring passers by they will not be mauled by your heathen bloody fucking DOGS!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE OWNERS OF INVISIBLE FENCES....KEEP THE LITTLE FUCKING FLAGS UP IF YOU HAVE DEVILS SPAWN FOR PETS....PLEEZE.

Ferret Herder
08-13-2004, 09:32 AM
I'll give you one worse - people with invisible fences whose dogs have learned they can charge the barrier and the shock will shut off soon enough. My husband is a letter carrier and a couple times he's been surprised by a charging pooch who he expects to stop, and then it doesn't.

Phlosphr
08-13-2004, 09:36 AM
even worse. :mad:

Black Train Song
08-13-2004, 09:43 AM
Aggressive dogs in residential neighborhoods suck period! I could see if it was a junkyard trying to protect its goods at night, but c'mon.


Poeple like that tend to act like their dogs are harmless and that you're acting unusual by being pissed/scared shitless.

One And Only Wanderers
08-13-2004, 09:43 AM
Cardiac Arrest Subverted, I noticed the little black boxes attached to their collars...and knew there was an invisible fence around this yard protecting passers by from being mauled.



Whilst I sympathize with your plight, can I be the first to say - What in the name of all that is dark and fetid and lives in a slime pit, is an invisible fence? do these little black boxes electrocute the dogs if the step over a line sort of the same as in the running man?

colour me confused.

El Zagna
08-13-2004, 09:45 AM
IANAL, but it seems to me that you have a right to walk on public right of way without being assaulted. (An assault in legal terms, is merely the threat of violence.) How is this any different from some lunatic-baseball-bat-wielding homeowner threatening everyone who comes near his property?

If the authorities can't help, perhaps you should carry a can of pepper spray and give the dogs a blast everytime you feel threatened.

PunditLisa
08-13-2004, 09:48 AM
Yeah, we have Pyscho Dog in the neighborhood who does the same thing. We'll be walking by on our nice little stroll with Buddy the Beagle and the next thing you know it's chaos! Psycho Dog, a strange mixed breed of german shepherd and who knows what else, just cannot stand to see peace and harmony. From nowhere, he'll charge towards you, barking and slobbering, then suddenly he STOPS as if....well, as if zapped by an electrical current. :) I swear one day he's going to herniate a disk jerking back so.

My dog, though sweeter than any animal ever to walk the earth, is not going to win any prizes for intellect because he does not *get* that Psycho Dog is not particularly friendly. Buddy torments Psycho by doggedly pulling us towards the yard, tail wagging furiously and smiling idiotically as if this will convince Psycho to join him on his Woodstockian walk because, dude, violence isn't the answer. Psycho responds by snarling even louder and showing more teeth. You know he's just iching for Buddy to get his sorry beagle ASS in his yard so that he can give him a lesson on free love.

Throughout it all, you try to maintain a placid expression, but a part of you is always wondering if this is going to be the day where Psycho decides "To hell with the jolt, I'm breaking outta here!"

Ah, peaceful walks through the burbs.

Oh, BTW, Phlosphr, most people take the flags down because they make cutting the grass a pain in the ass.

Giles
08-13-2004, 09:48 AM
If I understand that "invisible fence" thing right, that could be very dangerous for young children. They could cross the invisible fence (which of course they can't see) and be attacked by those dogs. It would be all very well for the owner to say, "Well, those kids shouldn't have been trespassing on my property," when the kids would have had no way of knowing where the property starts.

lieu
08-13-2004, 09:51 AM
3) Neighbor X's Dobermans like to run full blast at passers by stopping inches before mauling and bark at a pitch that would make most vomit.Dude, you vomit when dogs bark? That's pretty inconvenient.

Jurph
08-13-2004, 09:53 AM
Whilst I sympathize with your plight, can I be the first to say - What in the name of all that is dark and fetid and lives in a slime pit, is an invisible fence? do these little black boxes electrocute the dogs if the step over a line sort of the same as in the running man?

colour me confused.

You've pretty much got it. It's a nine-volt battery on a dog collar rigged up to an inductor and a transistor. A buried wire with current running through it produces an electric field. When you move an inductor through an electric field, you can generate a small amount of current. The current opens the transistor (fair warning: this is dredged from Circuits lectures from six years ago...) and allows the ZAPping part of the circuit to kick in.

The Biot-Savart Law has a velocity term and a field strength term, so it works differently at different speeds. If the dog approaches the field slowly, he can make it almost to the wire before he gets a zap. Dog approaches at a sprint, and the inductor trips much earlier, giving him a sustained zap while he's stopping. When the dog stops the ZAPping should (in theory) also stop.

Phlosphr
08-13-2004, 09:54 AM
Whilst I sympathize with your plight, can I be the first to say - What in the name of all that is dark and fetid and lives in a slime pit, is an invisible fence? do these little black boxes electrocute the dogs if the step over a line sort of the same as in the running man?

colour me confused.

Yes, the fence is burried around a perimeter on someone's property and the little black boxes attached to the devils spawn's neck electrocute them as they enter the "zap-zone" and they soon learn not to get too close to the perimeter. In my case they ran right up to where they knew they wouldn't get zapped and stood there barking.

IANAL, but it seems to me that you have a right to walk on public right of way without being assaulted. (An assault in legal terms, is merely the threat of violence.) How is this any different from some lunatic-baseball-bat-wielding homeowner threatening everyone who comes near his property?

I believe it is perfectly legal - though barbaric - to have an invisible fence with devils spawn on the other side. Small children or not. And that is the likely reason I have not gone to the authorities. Because I would most likely be told to take a hike.

Phlosphr
08-13-2004, 09:56 AM
Dude, you vomit when dogs bark? That's pretty inconvenient.
No, Lieu - the noise is loud enough to make one vomit. :) I was just trying to be dramatic. :D

Ferret Herder
08-13-2004, 09:57 AM
Whilst I sympathize with your plight, can I be the first to say - What in the name of all that is dark and fetid and lives in a slime pit, is an invisible fence? do these little black boxes electrocute the dogs if the step over a line sort of the same as in the running man?

colour me confused.
Pretty much. Well, it's not a harmful shock, more annoying/surprising/unpleasant, apparently, though I guess they can crank it up to "sorta painful" for those stubborn dogs. You get a wire implanted under the ground around your property, and your dog wears a special collar. I think the dog gets a vibration-type warning when they get close, if I'm not mistaken, and then a buzz if they cross it. This shuts off eventually in case someone does something like put the dog in the car and then drive off while the dog's still got the collar on and is getting zapped. This lets people's dogs have the run of their property without worry they'll jump/dig under a fence and escape, and keeps passers-by safe.

As Philosphr said, though, it's still scary when a big dog "charges" you, barking, and you don't know it'll pull up short at the edge of the sidewalk.

Giles: Well, at least this way a roaming dog wouldn't attack a kid in the kid's own yard. Plenty of kids who aren't supervised end up climbing neighbor's fences, only to be attacked/scared by dogs there - at least this way, the kid doesn't have to climb back over the fence to escape, which is preferable. Most people who use an "invisible fence" are suburban residents with comparatively small yards; it's not like kids are roaming acres of undistinguishable fields only to suddenly get jumped. Plus, not having a visible fence makes it easier for a kid to see a dog who might not be so friendly, before approaching it.

Elenfair
08-13-2004, 09:57 AM
I personally hate, as a dog trainer, any negative reinforcement training (with the exception of one thing, and that was using a shock collar to train our SAR dogs to stay away from rattlesnakes. It was for their own safety, and it was effective after ONE correction.)

Invisible fences are a crock. Honestly. I've heard of and SEEN dogs who, when motivated enough to chase something, have just barrelled through the IF, gotten the shock, and carried on the chase. This is common in sheepdogs and sight hounds... of course, the fun then is that your dog won't come back into your yard once it's done with the chase (assuming it didn't get run over by a car or something like that) because it will get shocked on the way in, and the motivation just isn't *there* in the first place.

The thing that REALLY bothers me has been said in the post above mine - kids can't tell where the land begins/ends and can put themselves in a dangerous situation. The ball just rolled into the neighbour's yard... there is no fence... let's just go get it... and whammo, they get charged by a happy bouncy lab who is twice their size... or worse, knocked down and hurt by a dog who doesn't take kindly to having strangers on its lawn.

I know for a FACT that if my Aussie were behind an invisible fence and the shock level set high, she'd still barrel right through the "barrier" if she saw something to chase like a rabbit, a squirrel, or another dog to go play with. I'm just not going to risk that happening...

One And Only Wanderers
08-13-2004, 09:58 AM
Thanks for the info Philosphr and Jarph

so for a truly dangerous dog breed - any chance of them taking a leaf from 'The Running Man' and using an explosive charge? Think of the trouble that could have been saved had this been used for the critters at Jurassic Park

Ferret Herder
08-13-2004, 09:59 AM
Oh, one more downside to invisible fences - it doesn't make it easier on any delivery/repair people who have to come to your front door. If the dog is growling and running back and forth in the front yard behind what's obviously an invisible fence, you can't get to the front door of the house.

PunditLisa
08-13-2004, 10:00 AM
Whilst I sympathize with your plight, can I be the first to say - What in the name of all that is dark and fetid and lives in a slime pit, is an invisible fence? do these little black boxes electrocute the dogs if the step over a line sort of the same as in the running man?

colour me confused.

You got it right. You bury a wire around the perimeter where you want the dog contained. Then you put a collar on any dog you want to contain in that area. It will deliver a slight shock if he attempts to cross that line. You can increase the shock if you have a particularly willful or stupid dog, but most dogs get the message with a milder shock. (There are some design flaws. For instance, if the dog breaks out, he will then get a shock entering back INTO the yard. Non-collared animals are free to enter your yard at any time and torment your dog.) But the basic idea is to contain the animal by delivering a shock if he breaches the line of demarcation. To help teach the dog where his area is, the owner will put up little flags marking where the wire is buried. Once he learns where he can go, the flags come down and thus pedestrians don't know if a dog is loose or contained in an electrified area.

While I can see how this may seem cruel, I don't really think it is, generally speaking. Sometimes traditional fences are just not feasible either because of zoning restrictions or because they are too expensive. And if it's a choice between an electric fence or a rope tied to a tree, I'll go with the fence anyday because it gives the dog free range of the area.

casdave
08-13-2004, 10:07 AM
I believe it is perfectly legal - though barbaric - to have an invisible fence with devils spawn on the other side. Small children or not. And that is the likely reason I have not gone to the authorities.



I actually doubt that this would be legal.

The owner of the property surely has a duty to protect the public from a hazard he has placed there such as the dog.

If you were to leave something dangerous lying around in your yard and a child had access to it, lets say for arguments sake the item was a gun, then the owner would be soon up in court, just because the item is a dog and not a gun, I just do not see all that much distinction, worse, the dog is capable of attack, whereas the gun will remain where it is until someone picks it up.

In this case all that's happened is that the dangerous item is compelled to remain in the yard, but its perfectly possible for someone unauthorised to walk straight in and it is pretty reasonable to assume that a child might be that person, or even if warning signs were placed its quite possible for someone whose first language is not that of the sign, or is illiterate, to walk across the yard and be attacked.

lieu
08-13-2004, 10:09 AM
Just joshin' ya, P.The thing that REALLY bothers me has been said in the post above mine - kids can't tell where the land begins/ends and can put themselves in a dangerous situation.Yep, that was my first thought too. I could condone using an invisible fence with Yorkies but certainly not Dobermans, PitBulls, Chows, etc.

Dog80
08-13-2004, 10:10 AM
This invisible fence thingy sounds really dangerous. What happens if the little black box gets wet, the battery is drained or something else malfunctions? Who let the dogs out?

El Zagna
08-13-2004, 10:20 AM
I believe it is perfectly legal - though barbaric - to have an invisible fence with devils spawn on the other side. Small children or not. And that is the likely reason I have not gone to the authorities. Because I would most likely be told to take a hike. But you're being assaulted! You're being threatened everytime you pass by on public property. As several folks have already mentioned, these things are not fail safe. You have nothing less than a life threatening situation here.

I hope that an attorney will come along and list your legal options, but in the meantimeyou might start talking to others in the neighborhood and get their take on it.

PunditLisa
08-13-2004, 10:21 AM
If I understand that "invisible fence" thing right, that could be very dangerous for young children. They could cross the invisible fence (which of course they can't see) and be attacked by those dogs. It would be all very well for the owner to say, "Well, those kids shouldn't have been trespassing on my property," when the kids would have had no way of knowing where the property starts.

Giles, here in Ohio we have strict liability in re to dogs. Trespassing can't be used as a defense against children, period, and most of the times it can't even be used against an adult. It doesn't matter if you have an electric fence or a twenty foot high electrified fence. If your dog harms a child for any reason you will be held liable for that person's injuries. However, I believe you are correct that having an aggressive dog in an unsecured area easily accessible to children may be seen as recklessly dangerous. I'm sure a jury would frown on that and compensate the victim accordingly.

Obviously, IMO, if you have a dog that attacks people, it shouldn't be left outside for any reason no matter what type of containment you choose.

PunditLisa
08-13-2004, 10:41 AM
But you're being assaulted! You're being threatened everytime you pass by on public property. As several folks have already mentioned, these things are not fail safe. You have nothing less than a life threatening situation here.

Not sure a dog is legally capable of "assault" but here in Ohio you can't do anything pre-emptively about a dog. One bite and you've got a case. I have two HUGE german shepherds living next door to me. They seemed very, very aggressive and I was very concerned that they would scale the four foot fence (which they could easily do) and attack my children. The police told me that there was nothing I could do about it UNTIL they bit someone, even if they acted aggressive and ferocious. He even hinted that it didn't have to be a particularly bad bite, but that it did have to actually harm a person in order for them to do anything.

Well, one day my neighbor and I were having a bit of lunch in the kitchen when one of the kids ran in and screamed that B has climbed the fence and was in the yard with the "big dogs." We streaked outside like bats out of hell to see B toddling across the neighbor's yard. We breathed a sigh of relief because no dogs were in sight, and we assumed they were in the house. Suddenly we saw two furred things fly across the yard towards her. We were frozen with fear. The dogs got into B's face and barked and snarled and followed her as she screamed and ran towards the fence. Her mother reached over and scooped her up to safety. Meanwhile the owner came outside because my older daughter had ran next door when she saw B in the yard, and SHE was pale with fright.

Those dogs never touched that child. I was amazed and SHE was amazed that they didn't harm her. And while I was very grateful that things turned out the way they did, I always wondered how people could be so stupid that they'd own animals that they didn't trust. If I thought my dog would attack a child who innocently toodled into my yard and I lived in a neighborhood teeming with little kids, I wouldn't let my dog outside. I wouldn't need the police or the courts to tell me to not act like an idiot.

Ethilrist
08-13-2004, 10:46 AM
I would find some legal way to hang out in front of the guy's house, say, with a picket sign reading "FLAG THE INVISIBLE FENCE". Wear earplugs. Eventually somebody will notice. Kind of rough on the dogs, but they've been really badly trained.

El Zagna
08-13-2004, 10:54 AM
I've got to believe that you have some kind of legal recourse here. We need a lawyer in this thread. Minty, Dewey, Bricker, Sua where are ya'?

Dog80
08-13-2004, 11:00 AM
Giles, here in Ohio we have strict liability in re to dogs. Trespassing can't be used as a defense against children, period, and most of the times it can't even be used against an adult. It doesn't matter if you have an electric fence or a twenty foot high electrified fence. If your dog harms a child for any reason you will be held liable for that person's injuries. However, I believe you are correct that having an aggressive dog in an unsecured area easily accessible to children may be seen as recklessly dangerous. I'm sure a jury would frown on that and compensate the victim accordingly.

Obviously, IMO, if you have a dog that attacks people, it shouldn't be left outside for any reason no matter what type of containment you choose.

Thats stupid IMO. If you have erected a 20-foot electrified fence, you have taken much more than simply reasonable measures to prevent your dog from attacking people.

What next? Should people keep their dogs in hardened underground bunkers?

Ethilrist
08-13-2004, 11:17 AM
Thats stupid IMO. If you have erected a 20-foot electrified fence, you have taken much more than simply reasonable measures to prevent your dog from attacking people.

What next? Should people keep their dogs in hardened underground bunkers?
That's the whole point. It doesn't matter what you do to prevent an attack; it matters whether or not anybody gets attacked. You could encase your dog in carbonite and, if it fell on a little kid, it'd be your fault. They might not penalize the dog, but it'd still be your fault. In the majority of cases, dog owners are able to deflect the blame onto the dog, and they do so, at the dog's expense. This may be a problem with our legal system.

Speaking as a victim of several dog attacks, by the way. I don't blame the dogs.

Dog80
08-13-2004, 11:30 AM
That's the whole point. It doesn't matter what you do to prevent an attack; it matters whether or not anybody gets attacked. You could encase your dog in carbonite and, if it fell on a little kid, it'd be your fault. They might not penalize the dog, but it'd still be your fault. In the majority of cases, dog owners are able to deflect the blame onto the dog, and they do so, at the dog's expense. This may be a problem with our legal system.

Speaking as a victim of several dog attacks, by the way. I don't blame the dogs.

I still don't get it. Suppose somebody deliberately disables the 20-foot fence's electrical system and then jumps over it. Is it still the owner's fault if the dog eats the tresspasser?

Tomcat
08-13-2004, 11:30 AM
What next? Should people keep their dogs in hardened underground bunkers?

No, but dog owners should all realize that no matter what the situation, when it comes to dogs vs. humans, the dogs SHOULD and WILL lose. Sorry, but no dog's living situation is more important than the physical safety of a child. That's reality.

Remember the guy whose child got attacked by a dog in California a few years back and the dad went after it with a baseball bat and beat it to death 20 minutes later? He won. No jury of 12 will convict when it comes down to dog vs. human. They won't.

I love dogs, but if my dog seriously harms someone, I will be the first to shoot it.

-Tcat

Dog80
08-13-2004, 11:32 AM
I wanted to add: Then it is no use having a dog for security reasons. Thieves will routinely jump over fences, manage to get bitten by a dog and then the dog owner will have to pay compensation.

Ferret Herder
08-13-2004, 11:36 AM
I still don't get it. Suppose somebody deliberately disables the 20-foot fence's electrical system and then jumps over it. Is it still the owner's fault if the dog eats the tresspasser?
Pretty much. You're "harboring a vicious animal" or something similar - the dog's not supposed to maul someone for just being there, and the case could be made that the dog could have tried to kill a cop who's there to bust the owner, the owner's wife/mom/whoever who had a key and startled the dog, etc. I know of at least one case in Chicago where a kid climbed a fence to retrieve a ball and was mauled by the yard owner's dog, and the owner was considered at fault. Basically, you shouldn't own an animal whose response to a "strange" human is to maul the person. Barking, snarling, threatening postures, chasing, that's all fine.

Tomcat
08-13-2004, 11:37 AM
And I was trying to post an addendum mentioning your point, but the hamsters blocked me. Once a criminal act is underway, THEN it is a different story, of course. Which is possibly what you were trying to say from the start.

-Tcat

Ethilrist
08-13-2004, 11:42 AM
If thieves are thinking things through rationally enough, far enough in advance to plan to let themselves get bit by the dog because they know they can beat the dog in court, they're probably going to look into some other form of work.

The whole idea of the barking dog behind the fence as thief deterrent is that the thieves usually don't plan that far, or that well, in advance. They also really hate surprises and will tend to run off when a dog starts to bark, even if it's several houses away.

Suppose somebody deliberately disables the 20-foot fence's electrical system and then jumps over it. Is it still the owner's fault if the dog eats the tresspasser?
Owning a pet that will hurt human beings given the opportunity is not a right here. Dogs have been getting a huge amount of bad press because so many people have them, so many people love them, and they all feel heartbroken when an otherwise perfectly fine dog cripples or kills a human being.

If there were a rash of break-ins in which housecats were savaging intruders, we'd be hearing stories about how they should be destroyed, too (yes, I remember the story about the tiger. Shut up. That was a tiger. I'm talking calicos, here.). Or if people were getting bitten by rattlesnakes and dying. Say, that's a good one: Suppose somebody put up a concrete wall, 4' tall, around his property, and raised rattlesnakes in his front yard. A kid climbs into the yard to get his ball back, gets bitten and dies. Whose fault is it? The numbnuts who thought raising carnivores in his yard was a good idea, that's who.

Homebrew
08-13-2004, 11:50 AM
This invisible fence thingy sounds really dangerous. What happens if the little black box gets wet, the battery is drained or something else malfunctions? Who let the dogs out?
It's waterproof. The control box has an audible alert when the battery gets low.

El Zagna
08-13-2004, 12:05 PM
I'm sure those are good safety features, but that hardly makes them fail safe.

raindog
08-13-2004, 12:08 PM
A freind of mine who owns a medium sized dog came home and found the dog wimpering and wedged between the furnace and adjoining wall. He attempted to extricate the dog and was promptly shocked. He realized immediately what was happening and turned off the electric fence. Apparently the unit went haywire and began shocking the dog while the owner was at work, and had been shocking the dog all day (or certainly a part of it). The dog wedged himself beside the furnace in attempt to flee the source of the pain.

The owner contacted invisible fence and received a reponse that he found absolutely unsatisfactory. A lawyer he consulted advised him that there was little, if anything at all, to be gained by suing.

He god rid of the invisible fence, He did some research and found that this 'problem' was not unheard of, and that other dogs had suffered because of mishaps. He hates invisible fence now, and would never own another. I would certainly do a lot of research before buying one, and I don't think I would take the risk for my pet.

legion
08-13-2004, 12:09 PM
You're in America, right? Can't you just whip out the old concealed & carried and shoot the fuckers?

Green_Means_Go
08-13-2004, 12:11 PM
Obviously, IMO, if you have a dog that attacks people, it shouldn't be left outside for any reason no matter what type of containment you choose.


A better solution would seem to be: Don't have a dog that attacks people.

Metacom
08-13-2004, 12:11 PM
And while I was very grateful that things turned out the way they did, I always wondered how people could be so stupid that they'd own animals that they didn't trust. If I thought my dog would attack a child who innocently toodled into my yard and I lived in a neighborhood teeming with little kids, I wouldn't let my dog outside. I wouldn't need the police or the courts to tell me to not act like an idiot.
I'm sorry, but if parents let an unsupervised child climb a fence into a yard that they know has guard dogs, I don't think the dog owner is the irresponsible one. Children should be taught not to break the law. If they're too young to learn not to break the law (i.e., trespass), then they shouldn't be left unsupervised.

Also, I want to see a reputable cite on the Ohio law. Here is what the state statute on dog bite liability is:

The owner, keeper, or harborer of a dog is liable in damages for any injury, death, or loss to person or property that is caused by the dog, unless the injury, death, or loss was caused to the person or property of an individual who, at the time, was committing or attempting to commit a trespass or other criminal offense on the property of the owner, keeper, or harborer, or was committing or attempting to commit a criminal offense against any person, or was teasing, tormenting, or abusing the dog on the owner's, keeper's, or harborer's property

Ethilrist
08-13-2004, 12:12 PM
Yes, because escalation always works so well in resolving issues...

Ethilrist
08-13-2004, 12:16 PM
My last comment was in response to Legion's post, btw.

So, Metacom, in Ohio, if I'm on somebody's property and I'm busily, say, committing slander ("other criminal offense "), and his dog leaps onto me and tears my throat out, it's my fault? Dang. So much for moving to Ohio. :rolleyes:

Metacom
08-13-2004, 12:26 PM
So, Metacom, in Ohio, if I'm on somebody's property and I'm busily, say, committing slander ("other criminal offense "), and his dog leaps onto me and tears my throat out, it's my fault? Dang. So much for moving to Ohio. :rolleyes:
Cute, but slander isn't a criminal offense (it's a tort, something persued in civil court).

Also, hopefully your on the property with the owner's permission, so you're not trespassing.

Lots of states have similiar statutes. The list of states to which you may want to move may turn out to be quite small.

Ethilrist
08-13-2004, 12:30 PM
Okay, so knowledge of the law isn't my strong suit, but do you see my point? If I'm invited onto somebody's property by the owner, and then his dog rips me apart, if he can prove I was committing a crime, he and his dog get off scot-free.

Phlosphr
08-13-2004, 12:33 PM
Ya know something. I have been thinking about this and all of your responses...I'm sitting here looking down, out my window at our dog outside. I have a yearling Rhodesian Ridgeback. Known for tracking and hunting Lions in Africa, it is one of the most obedient dogs I have ever known. Courageous, loyal, and rugged. He would never think of attacking anyone. You know why? Because my wife and I took a lot of time off work when we first got him and trained him extensively. He listens to our every command, and would never hurt a fly...unless of course the fly was hurting us. :)

My point is, even with minimal training, you can make a dog people friendly, and unless you are owning a dog specifically to be a mean guard dog there is no reason in my mind to keep such an animal. Especially in a neighbor hood like mine, with children running around everywhere. I live in a very family oriented place...with lots of people. The guy that owns the dogs from my OP is known to be a jerk, I just hope hishounds don't ever get out...

CrazyCatLady
08-13-2004, 12:36 PM
You're in America, right? Can't you just whip out the old concealed & carried and shoot the fuckers?

No, you cannot shoot someone's dogs on their property without a lot more cause than them barking at you. The worst you can do about a dog who is sitting on its owner's property and barking is to have the owner cited for violating a noise ordinance. If the dog were lunging for your throat, then you could shoot it and claim self-defense.

Zsofia
08-13-2004, 01:05 PM
There are plenty of other reasons why the invisible fences are dangerous for your dogs (as well as disconcerting for passers-by - there's a dog who hangs out in the front yard of the busy street near my house - I know there's an IF but he still makes me nervous, always looks like he's going to dart out in front of my car). An invisible fence offers no protection to your dog from hoodlums, tormenting children, tormenting cats... A traditional fence is a clear and obvious border that protects your dog, not just everybody else. While I can see some useful applications for IFs (your dog digs and you use it in addition to a regular fence, or the fence on one side of your yard belongs to your neighbor who refuses to keep it up, etc), but generally speaking, they present an unsafe situation for everybody involved.

Dogs in cities and suburbs are back yard animals. Most invisible fences I see either allow the dogs in the front yard or allow free run of the front and back yards. I imagine this is the case because people want the dogs to use the front yard but understandably don't want to build a fence in front of their house. However, this exposes the dog to a lot more passers-by (alarming to dog and human alike), may make it hard for the mailman and your mother to get to your door, puts the dog right out in traffic if the fence does fail... it just seems to me that if you can't afford a traditional fence or you can't put one up because of neighborhood associations or something, then you really should think twice about owning an ourdoor or indoor/outdoor dog.

I don't worry about leaving my dog outside alot in good weather because he has a good, sturdy fence - even if kids would tease him through it, he could always retreat. People in the neighborhood don't feel threatened by him, there's a barrier between him and any obnoxious tail-pulling children, potential dog-nappers can't readily see him - all kinds of reasons I wouldn't get an invisible fence.

PunditLisa
08-13-2004, 01:34 PM
I'm sorry, but if parents let an unsupervised child climb a fence into a yard that they know has guard dogs, I don't think the dog owner is the irresponsible one. Children should be taught not to break the law. If they're too young to learn not to break the law (i.e., trespass), then they shouldn't be left unsupervised.

I got sued from a neighbor whose 7 year old son was roaming the neighborhood unsupervised, as he always did. We were outside waiting for my husband to come home so we could go on a picnic and the dog was on a leash. The kid, who was jumping rope up and down the street, decided to come into the yard and chase my kids around while whipping the jump rope around and making monster noises. My dog lunged at him as he passed and nipped him on the ankle. My dog had never done anything like this before and I can only chalk it up to him thinking that this kid was trying to harm my kids. I don't know. In any event, despite the fact that the nip didn't even break skin (it made a welt much like it would if you got your finger caught in a 3 ring binder), we went up to his house and told his mom that our dog nipped him in the ankle, partly because she had a right to know and partly to let her know that crappy things can happen to kids who wander around unsupervised, and this was just a minor example.

Anyway, had this been me, I would have been MORTIFIED that my child was out running the neighborhood without my supervision. I would have reiterated the lecture I always give them about approaching dogs. (Never, NEVER approach a dog without asking the owner first and even then look for signs (tail wagging) that the dog is friendly.) And then I would have apologized to HER for my child trespassing onto her property and thanked her for bringing my child home. Instead, she called the cops and had my dog quarantined for 10 days. She eventually sued us for $50,000 for injuries because she claimed her son, who didn't even cry after the incident and who was later outside playing basketball, was so traumatized by the incident that he started wetting the bed.

3 years later, we finally settled at abitration for $1200. My attorney explained to me that basically we had NO case re the actual injury. What was left up to judgment was pain and suffering. It didn't matter that the kid was running around unsupervised and that we never invited him into our yard. It didn't matter that the dog was on a leash. Had he walked into our house uninvited, it wouldn't have mattered. He was 7 years old and thus trespassing laws did not apply. Kidsa aren't expected to obey the law. It didn't matter that the dog had been friendly around kids his entire life. We. were. liable. Luckily the arbitration panel didn't buy into her story that my dog messed up the kid's entire life so she only ended up with ~$800...for not watching her kid.

So I know what you're saying about responsibility and who was really at fault. But I'm here saying that no matter what we might think, if you own a dog, you are liable for what it does. Given that, and given the fact that I would have a hard time forgiving myself if my dog ever really harmed a child, I would never own a dog who would do real damage to a person. Period.

GawnFishin'
08-13-2004, 01:41 PM
Giles, here in Ohio we have strict liability in re to dogs. Trespassing can't be used as a defense against children, period, and most of the times it can't even be used against an adult. It doesn't matter if you have an electric fence or a twenty foot high electrified fence. If your dog harms a child for any reason you will be held liable for that person's injuries. However, I believe you are correct that having an aggressive dog in an unsecured area easily accessible to children may be seen as recklessly dangerous. I'm sure a jury would frown on that and compensate the victim accordingly.

Obviously, IMO, if you have a dog that attacks people, it shouldn't be left outside for any reason no matter what type of containment you choose.


Recently (last two weeks) I saw a news broadcast where a toddler had wondered off into a neighbours yard, the neighbour had a dog on an extension chain. Long story short, dog bites child after being tormented, mother held responsible for not watching child. Dog and owner, not charged.

Now if I could only find the news story. (I'm looking)

Marley23
08-13-2004, 02:00 PM
I'm not a lawyer, but could a (dangerous) dog visible to kids in a yard with no fence be an attractive nuisance?

PunditLisa
08-13-2004, 02:07 PM
Marley, I'm not a lawyer but the answer is yes. As are swimming pools and trampolines, whether they are behind fences or not.

PunditLisa
08-13-2004, 02:11 PM
Recently (last two weeks) I saw a news broadcast where a toddler had wondered off into a neighbours yard, the neighbour had a dog on an extension chain. Long story short, dog bites child after being tormented, mother held responsible for not watching child. Dog and owner, not charged.

Now if I could only find the news story. (I'm looking)

Gawn, I don't doubt your story, but unless it happened in Ohio it has no relevance. Each state has its own laws re this. Here in Ohio, dog owners are held strictly liable. YMMV.

Elenfair
08-13-2004, 02:19 PM
Just a quick note about the small dog versus big dog thing...

Most of the most severe aggression cases I have worked with in my time were small dogs - terriers, small "lap dogs" (toy breeds) and a whack of ill-tempered lhassas.

The difference is that small dogs don't have the same power big dogs do - so they usually (*usually*) don't make as much damage as, say, a Dobe could do.

This being said - I have seen the aftermath of a yorkie biting a toddler in the face - the child lost an eye... Some of the little terriers have incredible prey drive and could seriously hurt someone.

Hell, growing up, I had a Cairn who used to try to attack any and all salesmen/repairmen who would come to the door. Of all the dogs I have had, she was, by far, the most potentially dangerous. Ever seen a cairn terrier take on a groundhog? Yep. Killed it, too.

GawnFishin'
08-13-2004, 02:23 PM
Gawn, I don't doubt your story, but unless it happened in Ohio it has no relevance. Each state has its own laws re this. Here in Ohio, dog owners are held strictly liable. YMMV.


Sorry I hadn't realised this was an Ohio based discussion rather than a general discussion.

Why is it necessarily always the dogs fault? Aren't we responsible for our own action any more? Or in the case I refered to the mothers inaction not wanting to be a responsible parent? Let's say it had been a moving van backing out a drive way and not a dog who is to blame then.

Why, because we can blame the dog and not feel guilty for not doing enough to protest our own. It's an easy out.

GawnFishin'
08-13-2004, 02:32 PM
Protect protect protect... :smack:

Marley23
08-13-2004, 02:34 PM
Marley, I'm not a lawyer but the answer is yes. As are swimming pools and trampolines, whether they are behind fences or not.
Right. I'm just wondering how that plays into the issue. A younger kid could see the dog and not consider that it may not be friendly, and if anything that's made more hazardous since there's no visible barrier. And here, like Philosphr pointed out, the neighbor doesn't even have the flags and signs, which is just plain stupid.

Ethilrist
08-13-2004, 02:42 PM
GawnFishin, I don't think it's the dog's fault at all, most of the time, and I hate dogs.

RickJay
08-13-2004, 02:56 PM
I'm sure those are good safety features, but that hardly makes them fail safe.
But that's true of a wooden or chain link fence, too. They can break. Dogs can dig under them. Doors can hang loose. Dogs can climb over them. Doors can be left unlatched.

There is NO physical barrier that's fail safe. Physical barriers serve only to help you control your dogs. They don't control your dogs for you.

My parents have an invisible fence for their two little dogs, a spoodle and a Shih Tzu. It works great... but they still keep a very close eye on the dogs, because it's not perfect, and lots of things can go wrong with dogs. If they were larger dogs, or less well behaved, they'd probably put up a real fence too.

Or if they still had my old dog, Deej; she was just a little spoodle, but remarkably fast, and very territorial and alpha-dog-like, prone to chasing other animals. I loved her with all my heart and she really was a total suck, but I know damned well she might have bitten someone and certainly would have bitten another dog, and with her speed might well have blown right through an invisible fence before she knew she was being zapped. So we didn't let her roam free. You have to take appropriate precautions no matter what.

Ethilrist, it's NEVER the dog's fault. Dogs are animals, and fairly stupid ones at that. Blaming the dog for a biting incident is like blaming the car for a traffic mishap. It's always a human's fault, and 99% of the time, it's the owner. Either the dog was left unattended or loose, or it wasn't trained, or it was just a dangerous dog that should have been destroyed.

I would characterize the OP's demon spawn as being like dogs who are kept tied to a tree in the front yard but can still reach almost to the sidewalk. How does a passerby know the leash is short enough to protect them? Or that it won't break? Or how do you stop a child from going within the range of the leash? No physical barrier is a guarantee. The owners need to remedy the situation. Invisible fences are wonderful tools but not appropriate for some dogs and in some situations.

Ethilrist
08-13-2004, 03:04 PM
But that's true of a wooden or chain link fence, too. They can break. Dogs can dig under them. Doors can hang loose. Dogs can climb over them. Doors can be left unlatched.
Well, yeah, but if I see a dog trailing a chain as it runs towards me, I'm reasonably confident the dog's about to do that Looney Tunes bit where he gets to the end of his chain and yanks to a stop. If there's no chain, no fence, no little "Invisible Fence" signs...

Even if they have an Invisible Fence, all it takes is a power failure and the fence is meaningless, unless prolonged use of it has trained the dog to stop before it gets to the edge of the property completely on its own. That's assuming the fence is broadcasting something the collar picks up, by the way, and that the broadcaster is not battery-operated. If I'm wrong on that, then, whoops.

Hampshire
08-13-2004, 03:08 PM
[QUOTE=the raindog]A freind of mine who owns a medium sized dog came home and found the dog wimpering and wedged between the furnace and adjoining wall. He attempted to extricate the dog and was promptly shocked. He realized immediately what was happening and turned off the electric fence. Apparently the unit went haywire and began shocking the dog while the owner was at work, and had been shocking the dog all day (or certainly a part of it). The dog wedged himself beside the furnace in attempt to flee the source of the pain.

QUOTE]

If your friend would have used the equipment properly he wouldn't have had this problem. At no time should the collar be left on the dog if you leave the premises.
The training/owners manuals also state that the collars should not be left on for more than 3 hours at a time. They are used to keep the dogs in a confined area and are not meant to be used as a babysitting device.

PunditLisa
08-13-2004, 03:56 PM
Sorry I hadn't realised this was an Ohio based discussion rather than a general discussion.

It is. But you quoted me, then cited a case which seemed to dispute what I was claiming. I just wanted to clarify that citing a case from another state doesn't really work because not all states have strict liability laws.

That's not saying that what you have to say is irrelevant to the discussion.

Phlosphr
08-13-2004, 04:12 PM
...snip...

Hell, growing up, I had a Cairn who used to try to attack any and all salesmen/repairmen who would come to the door. Of all the dogs I have had, she was, by far, the most potentially dangerous. Ever seen a cairn terrier take on a groundhog? Yep. Killed it, too.

Ditto, we had a Carin growing up as well, and I have never seen a more viscious prey driven dog. Two anecdotes for you: Once when the parents were not home we let a squirrel get quite close to our porch...being prey driven, he (our Cairn Stiltin) [I know weird name] did not make a peep.....Until I let go and said really fast...go git im!! I should not have done that with the benefit of hindsight. We had to wash the blood and entrails off Stiltin's coat before mom got home...:)

two: One day whilst playing at a BBQ, we saw stiltin digging an eliptical hole in the ground roughly the size of him....when finished, he sat in it...So his eyes were exactly grass level. He sat there the better part of an hour...then we finally saw what he was doing. The sun was going down and the rabbits in our field were starting to graze...getting ever closer to him...When one finally got about 15 feet away...he shot out like a lightning bolt! Didn't het it, but certainly got the taste of some fir in hus little mouth.

Any way, I love Cairns. I love my Rhodesian now just as much, it's been a good 25 years since we had our cairn...

pohjonen
08-14-2004, 10:21 AM
Well, yeah, but if I see a dog trailing a chain as it runs towards me, I'm reasonably confident the dog's about to do that Looney Tunes bit where he gets to the end of his chain and yanks to a stop. If there's no chain, no fence, no little "Invisible Fence" signs...

Even if they have an Invisible Fence, all it takes is a power failure and the fence is meaningless, unless prolonged use of it has trained the dog to stop before it gets to the edge of the property completely on its own. That's assuming the fence is broadcasting something the collar picks up, by the way, and that the broadcaster is not battery-operated. If I'm wrong on that, then, whoops.

For the record, it doesn't even take a power failure. A sufficiently motivated dog is not even slowed down by the shock. Ask me, who was chased my the driveway by the neighbor's rottweiler. I saw him cross the fence to chase folks trying to walk their dogs down the street. He crossed any time he felt like it. Telling the neighbor he crossed the fence did no good. I had to get pictures of him outside the yard and get animal control to dispense a hefty fine and a declaration of a potentially vicious dog to get the animal actually confined to feel safe enough to go to my own mailbox or take out the trash. Research shows that in some states, invisible fences are not a lawful system of confinement. To my way of thinking, this needs to be the case everywhere.

Tony Montana
08-14-2004, 01:18 PM
You're in America, right? Can't you just whip out the old concealed & carried and shoot the fuckers?

Uh huh. Now back to your tea and crumpets. [pat, pat]

Danalan
08-14-2004, 01:40 PM
The 'Invisible Fence' collar also beeps when approaching the limits of confinement, an audible signal that the dog quickly learns not to ignore, because it proceeds a mild shock. Once the dog demonstrably heeds the audible signal alone, the shock part of the training can be turned off, and only used as an occaisional reinforcement or reminder.

Friends have a dog who is a kitten killer (I know, I'd put her down, too). The dog is enclosed in a fence, but they also got an invisible fence for training. If she's wearing her collar, the dog won't go past the boundary for anything, whether the fence is on at all (no beeping, even). If the collars off, she's gone.

Elenfair
08-14-2004, 02:35 PM
Any way, I love Cairns. I love my Rhodesian now just as much, it's been a good 25 years since we had our cairn...

I kind of miss mine too. The year she passed away, she'd turned 13 that summer and had dug out a nest of mice from the corner of my parents' yard. I distinctly remember the squeak-THUD sounds they made as she grabbed them and threw them against the fence.

She once took down (and killed) a groundhog - got a few scars to show off to her doggy buddies... and she also attacked a skunk in our yard... Didn't get it, but we certainly felt the pain for weeks and weeks every time it rained out there...

While my parents had her, they had no problems with rodents in their house or eating their garden. All our neighbours did (they live up against a wooded area), but we never saw a mouse or a rabbit in our yard... until the Cairn died. Then my parents got a Golden. Sophie likes to sit and watch the "cutsy widdle bunnies" eat my mom's vegetables and thinks squirrels are kinda cool to watch empty out the bird feeders.

Yllaria
08-14-2004, 05:28 PM
. . . an audible signal that the dog quickly learns not to ignore, because it proceeds a mild shock.

Or not. My sister had a dog who was so stupid that he'd wander across the fence line time after time. She said it was funny. She'd be around the corner and hear a surprised yip, followed soon after by another surprised yip as he recrossed back. She was sure that he was coming back into the yard because he knew he was supposed to be there and just didn't remember the shock he had just gotten.

He was a mellow shephard who was no danger to anyone, they just didn't want him wandering while they did yard work. Didn't work.

t-keela
08-14-2004, 05:49 PM
PhL I believe I'd get me some of that invisible pepper spray for the next time I have a problem with that invisible fence. OR someone...NOT ME or you might just give them Dobies some invisible sleeping pills in a couple of biscuits. I hope the owner does what's right. I love animals especially them sweet little puppies. :)

kanicbird
08-14-2004, 07:45 PM
Just heard on the news about a foster daughter who was constrained by an invisable fence. But for the dog problems, I have encountered this before, and peper spray also will stop the dogs in its tracks, I suggest you carry some.

Evil Captor
08-14-2004, 08:05 PM
No, you cannot shoot someone's dogs on their property without a lot more cause than them barking at you. The worst you can do about a dog who is sitting on its owner's property and barking is to have the owner cited for violating a noise ordinance. If the dog were lunging for your throat, then you could shoot it and claim self-defense.

What the OP described is dogs running up toward him as if to attack and not stopping short until they were very, very close. Just how to close does a person have to let the dogs get before he could shoot them in self defense, given that, as the OP states, there were no flags indicating the presence of an electric fence?

I'd say that a person could reasonably plug the dogs from quite a few yards away to ensure his own safety, or that of others around him.

Mighty_Girl
08-14-2004, 08:35 PM
Another vote for 'smaller is not necessarily nicer'. My parents have a chihuahua, like the very small ones, he sleeps in a shoe. I have never seen a crankier and more vicious dog (that coming from somebody who has been attacked by neighbor's dogs twice, both dogs had to be put to sleep). My mom doesn't know exactly what's wrong with the little rat. We've had dogs ever since I can remember and we never had that problem. He charges everybody but our family, regardless of the size.

There are always children in or around my parent's house. My parents had to split the backyard and put a fence to keep Tommy during the day, and bring him back inside at night. All the chihuahuas I know are nasty little creeps.

Clothahump
08-15-2004, 11:18 AM
Pepper spray.

Juice the dogs as they charge up to the line of demarcation and just keep on jogging. If the owner objects, point out to him that his little electric fence is useless if the power is out or the battery is dead on the collar. Tell him to put up a real fence or put the dogs on a chain.

1010011010
08-15-2004, 07:13 PM
I personally hate, as a dog trainer, any negative reinforcement training.


Invisible fencing is punishment, not negative reinforcement.
Punishment is conditioning to minimize a behaviour by introducing discouraging stimulus when the undesired action occurs. Negative reinforcement is conditioning to maximize a behaviour by removing discouraging stimulus when the desired action occurs.

PunditLisa
08-15-2004, 08:51 PM
What the OP described is dogs running up toward him as if to attack and not stopping short until they were very, very close. Just how to close does a person have to let the dogs get before he could shoot them in self defense, given that, as the OP states, there were no flags indicating the presence of an electric fence?

Are we talking "shoot" as in shooting a GUN or shooting pepper spray? I can't imagine how you could pull off shooting a dog while out jogging without breaking some law or putting yourself, or others, into needless danger.

Scenario 1: You're jogging down a residential street with a loaded gun in your pocket. That's carrying concealed, which is a felony is some places, not to mention recklessly stupid. The chances of you shooting off your own foot seem far greater to me than the chances of you getting mauled by a loud dog.

Scenario 2: You're jogging down a residential street with a loaded gun in full view. Something tells me that you'll soon be visited by a police officer who will NOT be very sympathetic with your story that the dog down the street is intimidating you.

Scenario 3: You make it to the yard, wait for the dog to come bouncing up, then shoot it, in cold blood. Gee, the first question the plaintiff's attorney would ask is, "If you FEARED the dog, why did you continue to jog past it?" The second would be, "Did you attempt to contact the owner or the police and lodge a complaint to see if this could be amicably resolved OR did you just take a gun out and start shooting?"

Scenario 4: You shoot the dog and subsequently get arrested for reckless endangerment for dispensing a firearm in the middle of the freaking suburb. This assumes you don't hit little Johnny, who is minding his own business and just happens to be in the trajectory of the bullet meant for the dog. If you do, then you'll be seeing the inside of a jail for no other reason than you're a freaking idiot.

smartini
08-16-2004, 12:54 AM
Kids playing in the neighborhood + untrained accessible Dobermans = a disaster waiting to happen. :(

Kids are supposed to be able to play in their neighborhoods. Yours sounds like a very nice neighborhood for kids, Phlosphr, except for this jerk and his dogs. And it is the owner at fault, not the dogs, but unfortunately he is not responsible and they are therefore dangerous.

I would start putting it all in writing...to this owner, to my city councilman, to the local police. If there is not a local Ordinance in regards to this; new ones can be written. Enlist your neighbors, esp. the ones with children. Maybe a neighborhood association or neighborhood planning unit would be a good ally.

I have never seen an invisible fence used for dogs like you describe. The few I have seen in my neighborhood were for little poochies which would most likely lick you to death...used mostly to keep them from wandering off.

There ought to be a law :mad:
Maybe you can make one :)

Good luck!

ps: and no GUNS please :eek:

Evil Captor
08-16-2004, 07:49 AM
Are we talking "shoot" as in shooting a GUN or shooting pepper spray? I can't imagine how you could pull off shooting a dog while out jogging without breaking some law or putting yourself, or others, into needless danger.

I was thinking "gun" since i don't know what effect pepper spray has on large dogs (if any). Oh,and nice use of the word "needless." I'd say the guy who's letting his Dobes or whatever charge innocent passers-by is the one who's putting others in needless danger.

Scenario 5: You're jogging down a residential street, two large dobes charge at you, you do nothing because to defend yourself would be nasty to happy puppykins, and they burst through the electric fence and you get severely mauled.

El Zagna
08-16-2004, 09:19 AM
Why does everyone have to be joging in these scenarios? Doesn't anyone just stroll anymore?

Phlosphr
08-16-2004, 09:41 AM
*I'm jogging to lose the weight.

Yesterday my wife came with me past said house, and this time the owner was outside mowing his lawn...said dobes came tear assing around from the back when we jogged by and did the same thing...The guy only called them off, and they went over to him...and kept right on barking in our direction.

My wife recommended getting some of that bear spray from the hunting store in town...I hear it packs quite a whollup! I'd just love so see those little fuckers with two eyes full of 100% pepper spray.... :)

Kalhoun
08-16-2004, 10:25 AM
Heh. My son was at a party where they had an invisible fence. Some drunk chick was getting kind of obnoxious, so the guys put the dog's collar on her. She'd teeter over the property line every so often and...ZAP! Then the guys gave her the slightest nudge, and...ZAP! Hilarious!

t-keela
08-16-2004, 02:06 PM
Why does everyone have to be joging in these scenarios? Doesn't anyone just stroll anymore?
If you ever see me jogging...YOU better be jogging too. Cause I promise ya whatever it is that has ME running down the road is too big and bad to shoot. and I gotta sawed off dbl bb shotgun w/ 3" mags. which would be overkill in this case. The pepperspray should suffice. I'd probably have a conversation with the local authorities too. If for no other reason than preventing a tragedy that is bound to happen. Somebody that isn't aware of the situation is going to get hurt (that's a promise) it's a wonder YOU didn't have a heart attack. My folks like to take a stroll in the evening. That'd be the end of 'em... what about somebody walking their little dog on a leash. No electric fence is gonna help. Either the pooch or grandma is gonna flip. If one of my kids took a shortcut across an open yard with NO signs and no dogs in sight. I don't care if they were "trespassing" they're kids. The owner of those Dobies...is gonna be dogfood.

smartini
08-16-2004, 11:42 PM
<snip>If one of my kids took a shortcut across an open yard with NO signs and no dogs in sight. I don't care if they were "trespassing" they're kids. <snip>

t-keela is right. Eventually a kid is going to get hurt by simply taking a short-cut through this idiot's yard. And I don't want to hear about "trespassing" either...they are kids for pete's sake...who of us never cut through a yard when we were kids?

Princhester
08-17-2004, 03:27 AM
Thanks for the info Philosphr and Jarph

so for a truly dangerous dog breed - any chance of them taking a leaf from 'The Running Man' and using an explosive charge? Think of the trouble that could have been saved had this been used for the critters at Jurassic Park

Well I'm in favour.

Martin Hyde
08-17-2004, 06:03 AM
I've had a lot of dogs in my life. Personally I don't think privately owned dogs should be trained to be "guard" or "attack" dogs. Police dogs are a different matter, as they are handled in a controlled environment and such.

But I feel there is just too much of a possibility for veyr unfortunate accidents when it comes to training dogs to attack humans privately.

As a sidenote I live in rural Virginia so the issue of neighbors being attacked by dogs does not exist for me.

Unless a dog has a mental defect, then ANY breed of dog can be trained to not attack humans just for invading territory. Now, dogs are living creatures, so if provoked enough (by physical tormenting to unreasonable degrees et cetra) it may attack, but in such cases it would clearly be the fault of the person doing the provoking.

I do believe it is good to have a dog that barks to alert of visitors.

I have a little schnauzer that barks very excitedly anytime anyone approaches the home. I know when my wife is coming home before I can see her car turn round a corner towards our driveway, my dog hears it that far away.

However my dog has been carefully trained to heel and stop doing his little alert routine on command. This was mainly essential due to the fact schnauzers have very "unique" barks that will drive you insane if allowed to continue unrestrained.

Also my dog has never even attempted to engage in any physical confrontation with a person.

Even at times when say the dog is sitting on the front porch and I'm inside (rare, as it's more of an inside dog and doesn't like being left alone) he will sit back and bark (but never growl) at delivery people et cetra.

Also, as a sidenote while barking can be for virtually any reason growling is considered almost ALWAYS aggressive when directed towards others from a dog.

Although dogs growling when they are chasing their own tail (I've seen this) is probably just oddball dog behavior.

Anyways it truly saddens me to see the behavior of some dogs, dogs are animals that have been bred to live with humans for probably at least ten thousand years. They make excellent companions and are considered highly intelligent (I hear new studies all the time that rank their intelligence higher and higher) animals.

The only dogs that are truly incompatible with humans are dogs that haven't been properly trained or severely abused. Even a stray dog (say one born without ever being owned by humans) won't behave so badly as to run people down and attack them. Strays often behave somewhat like wild animals in that they growl and act defensive if you corner them or threaten them, but for a dog to attack a human deliberately goes against not only the domistication and breeding of the dog, but even the age old natural instinct of the dog. (Wild dog species like wolves respond to humans much like most wild animals do, they will attack you if you make them think they HAVE to fight, but they prefer to avoid confrontation and have a healthy fear of you because you are a tall creature that is large and menacing to them)

As for the legal aspects, dogs are much like any other potentially injury causing thing on your property.

Sure, there are cases of burglars successfully suing their victims because they injured themselves on their property. But these cases are exceptions, typically the burglar doesn't even try to sue, and in lots of these cases the burglar doesn't get jack shit for their effort.

It typically takes some pretty slick lawyering to pull off these stunts and that is why they tend to make the news when they happen.

In some jurisdictions it is easier than others to achieve these legal results. If a lawyer friend of mine in New Orleans isn't pulling my chain, New Orleans (or probably LA in general) is the only jurisdiction in the country where you cannot be liable if you kill someone who has broken into your home (strictly home, not just property in general.)

As for someone tricking you onto their property and then sicking their attack dogs on you, in a criminal trial it probably wouldn't be that difficult to prove you weren't committing a crime. For example if it was a neighbor of yours, simply testimony from other neighbors that you had been invited onto the property before would cast a severely bad light on the owner of the dogs. And if you were dressed in slacks and a polo shirt and were on the lawn of a neighbor in broad daylight it would be hard to sell you as trying to commit some crime.

fuckoffbitch200
04-22-2017, 07:15 PM
Not sure a dog is legally capable of "assault" but here in Ohio you can't do anything pre-emptively about a dog. One bite and you've got a case. I have two HUGE german shepherds living next door to me. They seemed very, very aggressive and I was very concerned that they would scale the four foot fence (which they could easily do) and attack my children. The police told me that there was nothing I could do about it UNTIL they bit someone, even if they acted aggressive and ferocious. He even hinted that it didn't have to be a particularly bad bite, but that it did have to actually harm a person in order for them to do anything.

Well, one day my neighbor and I were having a bit of lunch in the kitchen when one of the kids ran in and screamed that B has climbed the fence and was in the yard with the "big dogs." We streaked outside like bats out of hell to see B toddling across the neighbor's yard. We breathed a sigh of relief because no dogs were in sight, and we assumed they were in the house. Suddenly we saw two furred things fly across the yard towards her. We were frozen with fear. The dogs got into B's face and barked and snarled and followed her as she screamed and ran towards the fence. Her mother reached over and scooped her up to safety. Meanwhile the owner came outside because my older daughter had ran next door when she saw B in the yard, and SHE was pale with fright.

Those dogs never touched that child. I was amazed and SHE was amazed that they didn't harm her. And while I was very grateful that things turned out the way they did, I always wondered how people could be so stupid that they'd own animals that they didn't trust. If I thought my dog would attack a child who innocently toodled into my yard and I lived in a neighborhood teeming with little kids, I wouldn't let my dog outside. I wouldn't need the police or the courts to tell me to not act like an idiot.

Are you serious? The DOGS are the problem? Please explain how you can be so fucking stupid that you think your kids should be able to roam free without supervision of any sort. The german shepherds (that probably wouldn't even harm your children unprovoked) are controlled your children are running free to torment those poor dogs. If you expect that a TODDLER can be left UNSUPERVISED THAT is the PROBLEM. What if instead of toward those clearly "vicious" german shephards the kid toddled into the road in front of a car that is driving where it is supposed to be but the baby is too young to understand that roads are not where it should be. OH YEAH THATS WHY IT HAS FUCKING PARENTS YOU IGNORANT FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way I have yet to meet a dog that bites unprovoked. Yes I've been bitten by dogs, pretty much always the little shitty ones. And yes I do have a german shepherd he's a sweetheart and no he has never once mauled anyone. I've even been around pit bulls...and survived never bitten by one of those extremely dangerous dogs.

Perhaps if you weren't so wrapped up in your fucking coffee while your shithead kids are in the NEIGHBORS YARD there wouldn't be an issue. Your kid was TRESPASSING plain and real fucking simple. You should consider yourself lucky that your neighbor didn't SHOOT your KID for TRESPASSING on HIS LAWN. The ONLY CRIME committed was by YOUR CHILD. Keep that in mind when explaining to the cops.

And to those of you saying shoot the dog with pepper spray or a gun I wish you luck if you take that approach with my dog. Let's just say I wouldn't call the cops.

zoo
04-22-2017, 07:35 PM
Do invisible fences stop zombie dogs?

El_Kabong
04-22-2017, 07:44 PM
Perhaps if you weren't so wrapped up in your fucking coffee while your shithead kids are in the NEIGHBORS YARD there wouldn't be an issue. Your kid was TRESPASSING plain and real fucking simple. You should consider yourself lucky that your neighbor didn't SHOOT your KID for TRESPASSING on HIS LAWN. The ONLY CRIME committed was by YOUR CHILD. Keep that in mind when explaining to the cops.

And to those of you saying shoot the dog with pepper spray or a gun I wish you luck if you take that approach with my dog. Let's just say I wouldn't call the cops.

Your ludicrously belligerent response aside, you do realize you are replying to a post from 2004, right? Are you likewise still writing angry letters to George W. Bush?

E-DUB
04-22-2017, 07:56 PM
Maybe he OP will come back and tell us how the situation was resolved.

CalMeacham
04-22-2017, 08:09 PM
I always wanted to have my picture taken near a sign for an INVISIBLE FENCE while holding one of these:

http://thecostumer.com/p-17770-invisible-dog-leash.aspx

RivkahChaya
04-22-2017, 08:15 PM
I always wanted to have my picture taken near a sign for an INVISIBLE FENCE while holding one of these:

http://thecostumer.com/p-17770-invisible-dog-leash.aspx
It was worth reviving the thread for that. That was hilarious.

Johnny Bravo
04-22-2017, 08:33 PM
The lifespan of a German Shepherd is 9-13 years.

Those dogs are dead, man. You basically killed them when you bumped this thread.

SlackerInc
04-23-2017, 05:36 AM
Ha, Schrodinger's dog, eh?

Are you serious? The DOGS are the problem? Please explain how you can be so fucking stupid that you think your kids should be able to roam free without supervision of any sort. The german shepherds (that probably wouldn't even harm your children unprovoked) are controlled your children are running free to torment those poor dogs. If you expect that a TODDLER can be left UNSUPERVISED THAT is the PROBLEM. What if instead of toward those clearly "vicious" german shephards the kid toddled into the road in front of a car that is driving where it is supposed to be but the baby is too young to understand that roads are not where it should be. OH YEAH THATS WHY IT HAS FUCKING PARENTS YOU IGNORANT FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree that this response was "ludicrously belligerent", but it's also not wrong. This whole trend we've been seeing lately (far more recently than 2004) of "free range parenting" is surely endangering a lot of kids.

A more measured version of the argument I cosign:

I'm sorry, but if parents let an unsupervised child climb a fence into a yard that they know has guard dogs, I don't think the dog owner is the irresponsible one. Children should be taught not to break the law. If they're too young to learn not to break the law (i.e., trespass), then they shouldn't be left unsupervised.

Guest-starring: Id!
04-23-2017, 02:22 PM
By the way I have yet to meet a dog that bites unprovoked. Yes I've been bitten by dogs, pretty much always the little shitty ones.

And those bites were unprovoked too, then?

Beren Erchamion
04-23-2017, 02:25 PM
On my new daily run around the block I have discovered several new-to-me things about my quiet little coastal Connecticut Neighborhood.

1) Neighbor X a half mile away has an Invisible Fence.

2) Neighbor X a half mile away has two (2) large male Doberman Pinschers.

3) Neighbor X's Dobermans like to run full blast at passers by stopping inches before mauling and bark at a pitch that would make most vomit.


So there I am, loving the nice pre-autumn morning, running along pleasant street, when out from behind their lovely black raised ranch 2 large Doberman's run out full sprint towards me.

I couldn't escape if I wanted to. I was breakfast plain and simple. I half stopped in the middle of the road and braced myself for the impending doom. I knew I could get away, but certainly not unscathed. I'd have plenty of stitches and a whollup of good story.

Said Dobermans stopped short and barked mercilessly as they frothed at the mouth, alerting the owner inside to come out and call them to order.

Cardiac Arrest Subverted, I noticed the little black boxes attached to their collars...and knew there was an invisible fence around this yard protecting passers by from being mauled.

I didn't even hear the owners apologies. I only heard myself within my own head saying..."Where the fuck are your little flags encircling your yard alerting people to your invisible fence? Where are those little fucking flags assuring passers by they will not be mauled by your heathen bloody fucking DOGS!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE OWNERS OF INVISIBLE FENCES....KEEP THE LITTLE FUCKING FLAGS UP IF YOU HAVE DEVILS SPAWN FOR PETS....PLEEZE.

Better yet, be a responsible neighbor (rather than a narcissistic sociopath) and don't get those sorts of animals as pets in the first place.

Beren Erchamion
04-23-2017, 02:29 PM
Barking, snarling, threatening postures, chasing, that's all fine.

Fuck that shit, that can make people who are doing nothing wrong on public property feel just as threatened, particularly if there are no immediately-obvious restraints.

Some fuckhead's pet is not more important than the right of people to enjoy public property without feeling threatened.

Beren Erchamion
04-23-2017, 02:31 PM
I'm sure those are good safety features, but that hardly makes them fail safe.

I suspect that the kind of owner who's enough of a selfish, narcissistic sociopath to keep these kind of dogs in the first place, isn't going to be terribly diligent about replacing the batteries when they start giving the low-battery notification.

Beren Erchamion
04-23-2017, 02:32 PM
I'm sorry, but if parents let an unsupervised child climb a fence into a yard that they know has guard dogs, I don't think the dog owner is the irresponsible one. Children should be taught not to break the law. If they're too young to learn not to break the law (i.e., trespass), then they shouldn't be left unsupervised.

What a bunch of nonsense.

So children too young to know better should suffer to teach the parents a lesson?

That's seriously an incredibly depraved and sociopathic thing to say.

Guest-starring: Id!
04-23-2017, 02:47 PM
That's seriously an incredibly depraved and sociopathic thing to say.

I'll bet a lot of money you haven't come across post #83 yet.

Beren Erchamion
04-23-2017, 02:59 PM
I'll bet a lot of money you haven't come across post #83 yet.

I wasn't interested in wasting my time responding to a post by an account named "fuckoffbitch200" that appears to have been created to respond specifically to the OP.

Of course, it wasn't until the subsequent post that I realized that this thread, and all the posts I was responding to, was nearly fifteen years old.

Johnny Bravo
04-23-2017, 04:24 PM
You sure do like calling people sociopaths.

digs
04-23-2017, 09:29 PM
That's okay, because I like being called a sociopath. It's right up there with fuckhead.

...narcissistic sociopath...incredibly depraved and sociopathic...
Some fuckhead......selfish, narcissistic sociopath.

Beren Erchamion
04-23-2017, 10:23 PM
You sure do like calling people sociopaths.

(Aggressive dog) owners tend to exhibit so much sociopathic behavior that, well, they are sociopaths (a lot of them are aggressive (dog owners), too).

GrumpyBunny
04-24-2017, 09:11 AM
Pepper spray as a solution? I don't know about Connecticut, but I was told that here in Massachusetts, you have to have a firearm id card for pepper spray. And certainly people can't just go jogging around with a firearm. This isn't Florida, you know. :p:D

BorgHunter
04-24-2017, 10:00 AM
You should consider yourself lucky that your neighbor didn't SHOOT your KID for TRESPASSING on HIS LAWN.
Is anyone else reminded of that episode of Star Trek: TNG, with that planet of amorous people that jog everywhere? The one where Wesley plays catch with the neighborhood kids, falls into someone's garden, and is sentenced to death, because the amorous joggers don't really understand proportionality? That's what this post reminds me of, and it amuses me greatly to imagine this guy/gal watching this episode and shouting at the TV, "What's the problem? He fell into the garden, of course he gets the chair! Why is Picard so worked up over this?"

Chimera
04-24-2017, 10:24 AM
Charging dog? Meet bottom of foot.

Hello accordion dog!

Tranquilis
04-24-2017, 11:35 AM
I'll give you one worse - people with invisible fences whose dogs have learned they can charge the barrier and the shock will shut off soon enough. My husband is a letter carrier and a couple times he's been surprised by a charging pooch who he expects to stop, and then it doesn't.Which can then also trap the dogs *outside* the wire. Meaning they can't even recall successfully - or that a shock from the wire may actually *punish* an attempted recall, leaving the most important obedience command broken. :mad:

Invisible fences are best combined with a physical barrier (fence) - the pair work together.

Charging dog? Meet bottom of foot.

Hello accordion dog!Not always a viable solution, as in cases of multiple dogs, or REALLY big dogs. My 90 to 110 pound shepherds would just keep coming, using the leverage of their bodies against your boot to blast you off your feet - unless maybe you're superman. There's a reason I have solid fences.

Tranquilis
04-24-2017, 11:47 AM
The 'Invisible Fence' collar also beeps when approaching the limits of confinement, an audible signal that the dog quickly learns not to ignore, because it proceeds a mild shock. Once the dog demonstrably heeds the audible signal alone, the shock part of the training can be turned off, and only used as an occaisional reinforcement or reminder.


There are dogs whom have a "high consistency of behavior" - that is, once a behavior commences, they will follow it through depsite serious distraction, pain, or impediment*. This is actually a desierable condition in some breeds - typicaly breed you REALLY don't want biting you. In those dogs, the warning (and shock) will be discounted once they're fixated on something on the far side of teh barrier.

For those dogs, the electronic barrier is not a good idea - they can (and do) find themselves on the outside of the wire, unwilling (now that their obsession has been sated) to cross back in to 'safe' territory. This is one of the ways bad things can happen.


*not always a bad thing - I've had dogs that Would. Not. Stop. until they greeted me - Just greet - Not even jump up. Then they were off to do their own thing again.

Kimballkid
04-24-2017, 03:04 PM
the amorous joggers

Amorous joggers? How does that work?

BigT
04-24-2017, 03:27 PM
Amorous joggers? How does that work?

Watch the episode. Here's an HD version of the original promo (https://youtube.com/watch?v=Qur0uA9yivg). Watch related videos to see more of what the episode was like.

This one is probably the best: https://youtu.be/nkEu4dxP3U4?t=36s

Darren Garrison
04-24-2017, 03:33 PM
Doesn't Ronco make the Fuckoffbitch200? I think I remember the infomercial.

BorgHunter
04-24-2017, 06:30 PM
Watch the episode. Here's an HD version of the original promo (https://youtube.com/watch?v=Qur0uA9yivg). Watch related videos to see more of what the episode was like.

This one is probably the best: https://youtu.be/nkEu4dxP3U4?t=36s
Something like ten years ago, Wil Wheaton wrote some recaps of some first season episodes. It seems they've been deleted in some ill-advised cost-cutting move at AOL, but luckily, the Internet never forgets (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20070105062000/http://tvsquad.com/2006/12/05/star-trek-the-next-generation-justice/). Anyone who didn't know what the frig I was talking about could be enlightened by reading that (hilarious) recap, and it's twice as funny if you already saw it.

snfaulkner
04-24-2017, 06:33 PM
Doesn't Ronco make the Fuckoffbitch200? I think I remember the infomercial.

Just set it and forget it!

SlackerInc
04-24-2017, 06:44 PM
Something like ten years ago, Wil Wheaton wrote some recaps of some first season episodes. It seems they've been deleted in some ill-advised cost-cutting move at AOL, but luckily, the Internet never forgets (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20070105062000/http://tvsquad.com/2006/12/05/star-trek-the-next-generation-justice/). Anyone who didn't know what the frig I was talking about could be enlightened by reading that (hilarious) recap, and it's twice as funny if you already saw it.

I remember that episode, and I appreciate the link!

Spiderman
04-24-2017, 07:06 PM
Charging dog? Meet bottom of foot.

Hello accordion dog!

Just the legs accordian (https://google.com/search?q=macy%27s+trixie+balloon&rlz=1C1SAVI_enUS598US598&tbm=isch). ;)

Helena330
04-24-2017, 09:26 PM
Something like ten years ago, Wil Wheaton wrote some recaps of some first season episodes. It seems they've been deleted in some ill-advised cost-cutting move at AOL, but luckily, the Internet never forgets (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20070105062000/http://tvsquad.com/2006/12/05/star-trek-the-next-generation-justice/). Anyone who didn't know what the frig I was talking about could be enlightened by reading that (hilarious) recap, and it's twice as funny if you already saw it.

That's hilarious! Thanks. But now I have to rewatch that episode. It's been awhile.

SlackerInc
04-24-2017, 10:29 PM
That really was awesome. Did he recap all TNG episodes? Is there a directory somewhere? Because a podcast I listen to is doing a tour through several TNG highlights, and I would love to share the recaps of the specific episodes they are talking about.

BorgHunter
04-25-2017, 06:56 AM
That really was awesome. Did he recap all TNG episodes? Is there a directory somewhere? Because a podcast I listen to is doing a tour through several TNG highlights, and I would love to share the recaps of the specific episodes they are talking about.
He got halfway through season 1 before stopping for whatever reason. Here are the episodes I could find, I think this is all (in airdate order):


Encounter at Farpoint, part 1 (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2007/01/03/star-trek-the-next-generation-encounter-at-farpoint-part-i/)
Encounter at Farpoint, part 2 (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2007/01/09/star-trek-the-next-generation-encounter-at-farpoint-part-ii/)
The Naked Now (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060334/http://tvsquad.com/2006/09/08/star-trek-the-next-generation-the-naked-now/)
Code of Honor (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2008/04/28/star-trek-the-next-generation-code-of-honor/)
The Last Outpost (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2006/10/10/star-trek-the-next-generation-the-last-outpost/)
Where No One Has Gone Before (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2006/10/27/star-trek-the-next-generation-where-no-one-has-gone-before/)
Lonely Among Us (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2006/11/14/star-trek-the-next-generation-lonely-among-us/)
Justice (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2006/12/05/star-trek-the-next-generation-justice/) (a.k.a. the one I was talking about)
The Battle (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2007/02/12/star-trek-the-next-generation-the-battle/)
Hide and Q (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2007/02/19/star-trek-the-next-generation-hide-and-q/)
Haven (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2007/05/08/star-trek-the-next-generation-haven/)
The Big Goodbye (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2007/07/11/star-trek-the-next-generation-the-big-goodbye/)
Datalore (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2007/12/03/star-trek-the-next-generation-datalore/)
Angel One (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2008/03/28/star-trek-the-next-generation-angel-one/)

Johnny Bravo
04-25-2017, 07:09 AM
Oh man, I remember those reviews.

I think those might actually have been the genesis of his transformation from hated child-ruiner of TNG into a pretty successful figure of modern nerd culture.

It never crossed my mind that Wil Wheaton could have hated Wesley Crusher as much as the rest of us.

Tranquilis
04-25-2017, 11:59 AM
It never crossed my mind that Wil Wheaton could have hated Wesley Crusher as much as the rest of us.Are you kidding? The type-casting alone nearly turned him into a nerd-monk for the rest of his life. Who would't hate that?

SlackerInc
04-25-2017, 06:29 PM
He got halfway through season 1 before stopping for whatever reason. Here are the episodes I could find, I think this is all (in airdate order):


Encounter at Farpoint, part 1 (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2007/01/03/star-trek-the-next-generation-encounter-at-farpoint-part-i/)
Encounter at Farpoint, part 2 (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2007/01/09/star-trek-the-next-generation-encounter-at-farpoint-part-ii/)
The Naked Now (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060334/http://tvsquad.com/2006/09/08/star-trek-the-next-generation-the-naked-now/)
Code of Honor (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2008/04/28/star-trek-the-next-generation-code-of-honor/)
The Last Outpost (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2006/10/10/star-trek-the-next-generation-the-last-outpost/)
Where No One Has Gone Before (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2006/10/27/star-trek-the-next-generation-where-no-one-has-gone-before/)
Lonely Among Us (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2006/11/14/star-trek-the-next-generation-lonely-among-us/)
Justice (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2006/12/05/star-trek-the-next-generation-justice/) (a.k.a. the one I was talking about)
The Battle (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2007/02/12/star-trek-the-next-generation-the-battle/)
Hide and Q (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2007/02/19/star-trek-the-next-generation-hide-and-q/)
Haven (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2007/05/08/star-trek-the-next-generation-haven/)
The Big Goodbye (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2007/07/11/star-trek-the-next-generation-the-big-goodbye/)
Datalore (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2007/12/03/star-trek-the-next-generation-datalore/)
Angel One (https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20080517060542/http://tvsquad.com/2008/03/28/star-trek-the-next-generation-angel-one/)


Wow, thank you so much! That was above and beyond the call of duty. I guess I will just link your post on Twitter, using it as an index, as the whole list would take a bazillion tweets.

August West
04-26-2017, 11:20 AM
There are dogs whom have a "high consistency of behavior" - that is, once a behavior commences, they will follow it through depsite serious distraction, pain, or impediment*. This is actually a desierable condition in some breeds - typicaly breed you REALLY don't want biting you. In those dogs, the warning (and shock) will be discounted once they're fixated on something on the far side of teh barrier.

For those dogs, the electronic barrier is not a good idea - they can (and do) find themselves on the outside of the wire, unwilling (now that their obsession has been sated) to cross back in to 'safe' territory. This is one of the ways bad things can happen.

A thousand times this ^.

Our first house was in a small town, and one of the families on our block had an invisible fence and a rambunctious Golden Retriever. We used to find him wandering the streets all the time because he would take the shock to chase a squirrel out of the yard but wouldn't take it to go back in the yard. Worse than useless product for that dog.

Lucky Mike
04-27-2017, 06:43 PM
I just heard this was a ZOMBIE thread so I had to om nom nom on some BRAINS!! :)

Personally, invisible fences should not be used for restraint from others. I had a dog one time, a smart dog. I inherited her as part of new coupling of me and my wife :)

She was a good dog, trained on an electric fence. But, I remind you, she was smart. We also had this understanding... She really liked me, I really liked her, but there MUST be respect.

Her bone, that was hers. My steak, that was MINE.

Can I bark?... NO!... ok

I am gonna pee. Let me out... NO! Sleeping... Ok, here you go, enjoy refinishing your 100 year old oak floors... FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

You know, that kind of respect.


If she wanted something outside the invisible fence only a little, like a bird.... meh, no big deal. She moved on.

If she really wanted something, she would crouch down, rev up (dog owners you know what I am saying here) and then dart and full-tilt boogy towards the line. As she passed the line she would jerk and yelp, but that stride, that magnificent stride, would not be denied.

She would keep going like an indomitable force and push through. Once relieved of the burden of the evil perimeter she always looked back at me...

..it was strange, sort of a Zen moment. She looked at me and I looked at her.

I swear she would gently nod, saying "ok human, understand now?"

I... I ... I must admit. I nodded back every time as if to say "well done doge".

She would then turn, move towards her target only stopping once to look back upon me as if to say "thank you for understanding".

Don't ever use an invisible fence.

SlackerInc
04-27-2017, 07:48 PM
I guess MMV, because my in-laws have an invisible fence and have used it for their past two dogs (at least). The dogs will run around and "chase" cars (parallel) and whatnot, but never ever go past the boundary.

aldiboronti
04-27-2017, 08:00 PM
How many people have to be killled or mutilated by pitbulls, doberman pinschers, alsatians, etc before they put all these fucking breeds down? Why the fuck should anyone want to own a vicious fucking animal in the first place?

Tranquilis
04-27-2017, 08:14 PM
How many people have to be killled or mutilated by pitbulls, doberman pinschers, alsatians, etc before they put all these fucking breeds down? Why the fuck should anyone want to own a vicious fucking animal in the first place?

Ah, Breed-specific hate raises it's ugly (and mis-informed) head. I knew it would be along sooner or later...

snfaulkner
04-27-2017, 08:28 PM
Ah, Breed-specific hate raises it's ugly (and mis-informed) head. I knew it would be along sooner or later...

It's amazing it took this long...13yrs!

Tranquilis
04-27-2017, 08:31 PM
It's amazing it took this long...13yrs!Well, ya know, sometimes you just have to let things soak a while... :p

x-ray vision
04-27-2017, 11:35 PM
I haven't seen it yet, but I heard Denzel Washington did a great job.

Tranquilis
04-28-2017, 10:19 AM
I haven't seen it yet, but I heard Denzel Washington did a great job.really? I thought he was a bit wooden. ;)

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