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View Full Version : In the original "Star Wars" were Storm Troopers all the same build (like clones)?


astro
12-11-2004, 05:12 PM
Don't recall if they were all about the same height-weight or not, per the later plot device that they were all clones of Boba Fett. Anyone remember?

jweb
12-11-2004, 05:24 PM
Although I can't say with 100% certainty, I seem to remember that all of the stormtroopers seemed to be about the same size.

There's also the line in Episode IV where Luke opens the door to Leia's prison cell, and her first words are "Are you a little short for a stormtrooper?" To me, that implies that they were all of almost identical size.

Sam Stone
12-11-2004, 05:35 PM
Or maybe they just had minimum height requirements.

Larry Mudd
12-11-2004, 05:47 PM
In the original Star Wars, Stormtroopers were recruited through the Imperial Academy.

Luke's ambition, before he had his quest dropped in his lap and the Lars' were slaughtered by Stormtroopers, was to join the academy as a way to get off Tattooine and break up the monotony. Luke's idol Biggs had already joined up, but on the day that Leia's Blockade Runner was captured, Luke learned that he had gone AWOL and hooked up with the rebellion.

Leia's comment about Luke's height was just an averages thing, and a way to deprecate someone that she considered the enemy at that point. If Stormtroopers were all supposed to be the same size, then Luke's ruse to get into the cell-block area wouldn't have worked, since it was clear at a glance that he was a little guy.

Superdude
12-11-2004, 06:45 PM
And a young Han Solo was also a member of the academy. If memory serves, he quit/was kicked out when he saved Chewbacca from being a slave. Which is what caused Chewie to pal around with him.

iggy popov
12-11-2004, 07:22 PM
The books go on to explain that the Empire has a training planet called Cardia(I think its been a while) where they do they're military training. So in the original trilogy stormtroopers are not clones. But you have to wonder what happened to all of the clones. Maybe they are mixed in with recruited stormtroopers.

Diceman
12-11-2004, 07:42 PM
The books go on to explain that the Empire has a training planet called Cardia(I think its been a while) where they do they're military training. So in the original trilogy stormtroopers are not clones. But you have to wonder what happened to all of the clones. Maybe they are mixed in with recruited stormtroopers.
Now that the Republic has an army, they're bound to get volunteers. If I was an admiral in charge of the military force, I'd keep the volunteer units separate from the clones. Mixing them could only lead to trouble.

iggy popov
12-11-2004, 07:54 PM
Now that the Republic has an army, they're bound to get volunteers. If I was an admiral in charge of the military force, I'd keep the volunteer units separate from the clones. Mixing them could only lead to trouble.


If they are all in the stormtrooper/clonetrooper armor how could you tell the clones from the recruits? I don't think that it would lead to any trouble.

Larry Mudd
12-11-2004, 08:09 PM
If they are all in the stormtrooper/clonetrooper armor how could you tell the clones from the recruits? I don't think that it would lead to any trouble.You don't think they'd wear all that armor around the barracks, do you?

vibrotronica
12-11-2004, 08:14 PM
I thought the Imperial Academy was the route to the Imperial Navy, not stormtrooperdom. But, regardless, there was some confusion in the old days about whether they were clones or not. I remember reading in Starlog magazine that they were clones, but in the very non-canon Splinter of the Mind's Eye, it was stated very clearly that they were recruited from all over the galaxy.

Superdude
12-11-2004, 08:53 PM
The books go on to explain that the Empire has a training planet called Cardia(I think its been a while) where they do they're military training. So in the original trilogy stormtroopers are not clones. But you have to wonder what happened to all of the clones. Maybe they are mixed in with recruited stormtroopers.


WAG: Maybe that's what the "Clone Wars" are about.

iggy popov
12-11-2004, 11:08 PM
You don't think they'd wear all that armor around the barracks, do you?


In one book(I forgot the title. It's part of the series with kyp durron and the sun crusher ship. It used to be one of my favorites back in the nerd days.) there is a line about a stormtrooper taking off his helmet for the first time since he was recruited. So I guess they always wear the armor.

Diceman
12-11-2004, 11:55 PM
Don't put too much stock in the books. They're non-canon, or at best semi-canon. I read another book where a few Stromtroopers try to rape a girl, and they get undressed to do so. (Something interrupts them, I forget what, and the Troopers end up getting killed.) I really can't imagine that the Stormtroopers would stay in those uniforms 24/7. They have to eat, sleep, bath, and go to the bathroom just like we do, and presumably the volunteer forces get occasional shore leave or something of the sort.

iggy popov
12-12-2004, 12:24 AM
It's the evil empire, they don't let you take off the armor, thats why they're evil.

Ephemera
12-12-2004, 01:09 AM
Don't put too much stock in the books. They're non-canon, or at best semi-canon..

Granted, I'm a Trekkie and not an SW fan at all but I'm pretty sure you're wrong about this. My best friend in high school was as big a Wars nerd as I was a Trek geek and he said the Extended Universe found in the comics and novels is all canon unless there is some glaring contradiction in which case, I don't remember what happens. Someone's head implodes?

In our debates on which universe would kick the other's ass (Trek, by the way), I was always hampered by not being able to use the fanwank stuff from Trek's novels but he was free to use all the deus ex machina tech and characters he wanted from Star Wars because of that damnable rule.

If I find out he was lying to me after all these years, I'm going to have to hunt him down and force him to watch a marathon session of Episode I in retribution.

iggy popov
12-12-2004, 03:39 AM
In our debates on which universe would kick the other's ass (Trek, by the way), I was always hampered by not being able to use the fanwank stuff from Trek's novels but he was free to use all the deus ex machina tech and characters he wanted from Star Wars because of that damnable rule.

.


Not a chance in hell. How many planet destroying super weapons do they have in trek? Not many.

Scissorjack
12-12-2004, 04:05 AM
If they are all in the stormtrooper/clonetrooper armor how could you tell the clones from the recruits? I don't think that it would lead to any trouble.

The ones who weren't clones wouldn't sound like Tem Morrison {unless they changed the clone donor, which Lucas will probably claim} - I figured they couldn't be clones in the original Star Wars after AOC came out because they all spoke with different voices, however no doubt Lucas will rectify this in the next final definitive DVD release.

Ephemera
12-12-2004, 04:14 AM
Not a chance in hell. How many planet destroying super weapons do they have in trek? Not many.

He agreed to leave the planet busters out and I agreed to not use the Q, Organians, Douwd, Prophets, et al.

Marley23
12-12-2004, 04:20 AM
Don't recall if they were all about the same height-weight or not, per the later plot device that they were all clones of Boba Fett. Anyone remember?
Judging from just the movie and not any of the extra crap, I doubt there would be any way to tell. They all look the same with the armor on. I don't think the clone thing was thought up until later.

Larry Mudd
12-12-2004, 05:45 AM
Judging from just the movie and not any of the extra crap, I doubt there would be any way to tell. They all look the same with the armor on. I don't think the clone thing was thought up until later.I don't know much about the extended universe stuff either, but waaaay back in the early eighties it was established "fanlore" that Boba Fett's uniform was an early version of stormtrooper armor, and that he was an uber-stormtrooper during the Clone Wars who got tired of taking orders and went the mercenary route.

It's neat that the Clonetrooper uniforms ended up being clearly modeled off Fett's "uniform" -- sort of midway between Fett and the original trilogy stormtrooper look. (Leaving Fett out of it, there was Lucasfilm-sanctioned nerd-fodder that came out around the same time as The Empire Strikes Back that specifically said that the Stormtroopers were clone, grown in vats, like Edgar Rice Burroughs Synthetic Men of Mars.)

Of course, equally established "fanlore" was that Obi Wan was the "prototype" for the initial line of the clone armies, since he had a phonetically-rendered serial-number like name like Artoo Deetoo and See Threepio, with "OB" standing for "Original Body" in the same way that the "PO" in "C3-PO" stands for Protocol Officer.

At some point George had to pick which fans to validate. :D

pool
12-12-2004, 06:16 AM
Isn't it stated somewhere in episode II that the clones age something like twice as fast as a normal person or something like that, with the exception of Boba, so they are probably all dead by the time of the original trilogy. :eek:

Hail Ants
12-13-2004, 12:34 AM
Don't recall if they were all about the same height-weight or not, per the later plot device that they were all clones of Boba FettJezz, I can't believe no one's pointed this out yet.

[incredible geek mode]
The stormtroopers are clones of Jenga Fett not his son Boba.
[/igm]

Eww, I feel so dirty...

Zebra
12-13-2004, 12:40 AM
On Thanksgiving a friend and I watched the original trilogy.

The Stormtroopers are definetly not a uniform height.

This is really obvious when Obi Wan is turning off the tractor beam and the two guards come and stand guard and have a little chat.

Bryan Ekers
12-13-2004, 01:54 AM
This is really obvious when Obi Wan is turning off the tractor beam and the two guards come and stand guard and have a little chat.

Well, mayhbe one of them was shorter from bashing his head into comm center doors all day!

Wasn't Boba himself a clone of Jango, thus the idea of being a clone of Boba or Jango was esentially meaningless?

Yllaria
12-13-2004, 02:22 AM
Boba was a true clone - the stormtroopers were modified to be more obedient.

Ranchoth
12-13-2004, 02:29 AM
Not a chance in hell. How many planet destroying super weapons do they have in trek? Not many.

Well, there's Trilithium Torpedoes and the Genesis Device...neither of which needed a battle station the size of a moon to support them. HA! :D

Ephemera
12-13-2004, 02:38 AM
Trilithium torpedoes inhibit nuclear reactions in stars so it's a solar sytem killer, not just a planetbuster. Doesn't have much conventional power otherwise.

Hail Ants
12-13-2004, 02:39 AM
He was a clone of his father? I only watched AOTC once. Didn't the Stormtrooper clones come out full grown? But Boba was a little kid.

Anyway, regarding Star Wars vs Star Trek, the first time I came across this website (http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/) I have to say the word 'impressive' isn't what came to mind. More like 'pathetic'... :D

Scoundrel Swanswater
12-13-2004, 04:35 AM
The books are absolutely non-canon, so should be kept out of this discussion.
I think that Pool hits the nail on the head with :

Isn't it stated somewhere in episode II that the clones age something like twice as fast as a normal person or something like that, with the exception of Boba, so they are probably all dead by the time of the original trilogy.

As the empire has gone into decay by the time of the second trilogy (as everything else in the SW-universe) the technology to create the clones may have been lost.
It would now be easy and cheap to just kidnap young kids and brainwash them into Stormtroopers.

I wonder what George Lucas himself would say about this.
He probably would create a new version of the trilogy with uniform sized stormtroopers.
:wally

Ephemera
12-13-2004, 06:45 AM
Okay, since we're getting different people saying different things, I finally just googled "star wars + novels + canon" and came up with a link to theforce.net and wikipedia. Since the former wouldn't load and the latter's almost always considered a trustworthy cite, I clicked on it.


The Expanded Universe (or EU for short) is a collection of fictional background material from the Star Wars universe that is derived from official novels, comic books, and various other media besides the movies themselves. The Expanded Universe is considered canonical by Lucasfilm Ltd., though there are many fans of the movie series who do not agree. The Expanded Universe, however, has a continuity with few wrinkles. The general rule is that nothing in the Expanded Universe is allowed to contradict any other part of the Expanded Universe or the films. The films, however, do slightly contradict the Expanded Universe on occasion, and retcons are created in the Expanded Universe to fix these contradictions.

Looks like the novels are canon but some fans just don't like it.

sleeepy2
12-13-2004, 07:28 AM
Okay, since we're getting different people saying different things, I finally just googled "star wars + novels + canon" and came up with a link to theforce.net and wikipedia. Since the former wouldn't load and the latter's almost always considered a trustworthy cite, I clicked on it.




Looks like the novels are canon but some fans just don't like it.

Hmmm... If I recall correctly, in Splinter of The Minds Eye, Luke and Leia get a little "closer" than a brother and sister should.

Diceman
12-13-2004, 07:54 AM
He was a clone of his father? I only watched AOTC once. Didn't the Stormtrooper clones come out full grown? But Boba was a little kid.


The stormtroopers were artificially aged so they grew to maturity in 10 years. Boba was cloned, but is otherwise an ordinary child. There's no Mama Fett.

The general rule is that nothing in the Expanded Universe is allowed to contradict any other part of the Expanded Universe or the films. The films, however, do slightly contradict the Expanded Universe on occasion, and retcons are created in the Expanded Universe to fix these contradictions.
This means that the books are "semi-canon." They're canon, except if they contradict the movies.

Scissorjack
12-14-2004, 04:25 AM
Hmmm... If I recall correctly, in Splinter of The Minds Eye, Luke and Leia get a little "closer" than a brother and sister should.

I think that one can be counted as completely non-canonical...is it even still in print? What was the story behind its publication, anyway? As I recollect, it came out BEFORE Empire, and reads like a rejected screenplay fleshed out into a novel. C'mon, someone must know...

vibrotronica
12-14-2004, 11:13 AM
Alan Dean Foster ghostwrote the novel adaptation of the original Star Wars for Lucas. Part of the deal was that Foster got to write the first novel set in the Star Wars universe, which became Splinter of the Mind's Eye. The plot involves Luke and Leia attempting to recover the Kybar crystal (I think that's how it's spelled--it's been a long time), a powerful Jedi artifact which was the McGuffin in the first draft of Star Wars. The book is considered non-canon today because it spends a lot of time talking up the romantic tensions between Luke and Leia. I think they even kiss. There's a saber battle between Vader and Luke, as well. I remembered loving it at the time, and I recently recovered my two copies from my grandmother's attic. I don't see myself re-reading it anytime soon, though.

iggy popov
12-14-2004, 01:35 PM
I just picked up a new copy(money to burn and intoxicants don't mix) of Splinter of the Minds Eye a year or so ago, so yes it is still in print and I cannot figure out why.

Anyways, I have think we may have a Star Wars/Trek debate brewing. I'm sure it's been done here before but would anyone be up for starting a new one? On a seperate thread before we hijack this one further?

Apos
12-14-2004, 01:50 PM
A major purpose of having a military is not just as a fighting force, but as a way to control young men and indoctrinate them into the command structure of the empire. So even if they had clones, it would still make sense to militarize the galaxy.

Big_Norse
12-14-2004, 04:01 PM
Alan Dean Foster ghostwrote the novel adaptation of the original Star Wars for Lucas. Part of the deal was that Foster got to write the first novel set in the Star Wars universe, which became Splinter of the Mind's Eye. The plot involves Luke and Leia attempting to recover the Kybar crystal (I think that's how it's spelled--it's been a long time), a powerful Jedi artifact which was the McGuffin in the first draft of Star Wars. The book is considered non-canon today because it spends a lot of time talking up the romantic tensions between Luke and Leia. I think they even kiss. There's a saber battle between Vader and Luke, as well. I remembered loving it at the time, and I recently recovered my two copies from my grandmother's attic. I don't see myself re-reading it anytime soon, though.The ONE thing that sticks in my mind about SotME was Luke readjusting the size of his light saber beam (at one point he made it really small to pick a lock or something), was that ever shown in the films? Or were the film light saber blades an unadjustable standard size?

iggy popov
12-14-2004, 04:09 PM
In AotC they show Anakin doing the beam adjustment when he is trying to rescue his mother.

Chastain86
12-14-2004, 04:19 PM
My WAG: The clones are still around, but in fewer numbers. As we've seen from Boba Fett, the clones DO age, albeit at a slower rate.

Perhaps the clones are the Royal Guards of the Emperor.

Winston Bongo
12-14-2004, 05:36 PM
Isn't saying "the Expanded Universe is canon unless the movies contradict it" essentially meaningless? What could "canon" possibly mean except "in agreement with Lucas' vision as portrayed in the films"? The movies are the only thing to measure against. If they contradict the EU, the EU is scrapped; if certain parts happen to agree with the EU, then those parts of the EU have become "canon" but not necessarily anything else. Right?

The whole Jango/Boba/clone thing, for example, contradicts all the stories of Boba being a former stormtrooper, or a "Mandalorian Supercommando" (whatever that means). Lucas may have had the idea of the stormtroopers being clones a long time ago, but I'll bet it never occurred to him to make them clones of Boba Fett's old man until he was writing Episode II. On the other hand, the prequels do have Coruscant, which wasn't in the original trilogy and came directly from the EU. So I suppose you could say Lucas is free to rip off any idea he wants from the EU, but not obligated to do so.

It's all very confusing, especially now that George has gone senile on us.

The Asbestos Mango
12-14-2004, 07:32 PM
My guess would be that the early stormtroopers would have all been clones, but that somewhere along the line the technology would have been lost, perhaps some dissident group on the planet where the clones were being made decided that the Empire was evil, and/or that cloning in itself was evil, and destroyed the tanks as well as any documentation that would reveal how the clones were created.

Of course, then the empire would have to start recruiting. They would naturally seek out people who were physically powerfully built, reasonably intelligent, and with personalities malleable enough that they could be fairly easily be brainwashed and have the brainwashing stick.

Also, IIRC, in one of the novels, there was small group of clones all made from the same original genetic material that decided they didn't want to play with the Empire anymore and were found hiding out on some backwater planet. The idea was put forth that there were several strains of clones, and maybe a few hundred (or thousand) copies of a donor would be run off before the line was discontinued.

Bryan Ekers
12-14-2004, 07:38 PM
The ONE thing that sticks in my mind about SotME was Luke readjusting the size of his light saber beam (at one point he made it really small to pick a lock or something), was that ever shown in the films? Or were the film light saber blades an unadjustable standard size?

"I see your schwartz is as big as mine...."

phaishazamkhan
12-14-2004, 07:53 PM
The stormtroopers are clones of Jenga Fett not his son Boba.

Jango Fett not Jenga. Incredible geek, indeed. Cite (http://imdb.com/title/tt0121765/). Jenga (http://hasbro.com/jenga/) is a party game.

Please do not confuse with Sean Penn's character's idol in Sweet and Lowdown (http://imdb.com/title/tt0158371/). That was Django Reinhardt (http://google.com/search?q=Django+Reinhardt).

Also Boba wasn't Jango's son. Boba was Jango's youthful clone whom he treated as a son.

Now for my take on the whole clone thing. Boba had a raging hardon for Han, taking into account this thread's cites that Han was a former Academy cadet, was that Han was one of the clones. If anyone had unmasked a stormtrooper then they would've been surprised by Harrison Ford's face staring back at them. Boba didn't want this secret to get out and made it his personal mission in life to hunt down Han Solo.
Supposedly during the filming of Star Wars, Lucas had kittens when he saw a couple of stormtroopers on the set who were hanging around without their helmets. Perhaps he had it in mind, perhaps he just wanted to reinforce their faceless oppression or Lucas just wanted things his way.

phaishazamkhan
12-14-2004, 07:58 PM
And should anyone question the veracity of my statement regarding Boba Fett, cite (http://starwars.com/databank/character/jangofett/) and cite (http://starwars.com/databank/character/bobafett/).

If starwars.com is not definitive enough for the floundering Star Wars franchise then I'm a monkey's uncle.

And I don't feel dirty at all.

Lemur866
12-14-2004, 08:09 PM
If this was true, then why didn't Luke make a comment about it in episode IV when Luke and Han steal the stormtrooper outfits and pretend to escort Chewie to the cellblock?

You'd think Luke would have noticed when they took off the armor and noticed two clones of Han Solo lying there unconscious.

phaishazamkhan
12-14-2004, 08:14 PM
Curses, you saw through my ruse. At least everything else is cited and unassailable. You won this round!!! SHAKING FIST

Ranchoth
12-16-2004, 01:51 AM
Trilithium torpedoes inhibit nuclear reactions in stars so it's a solar sytem killer, not just a planetbuster. Doesn't have much conventional power otherwise.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Shade
12-16-2004, 09:33 AM
Guys, let's rephrase the question a bit.

(a) Is there any evidence in the movies that the troopers are clones?

Nothing conclusive iirc. They look the same size. It'd explain why they're happy to get shot all the time. Anything else?

(b) Is there any evidence in the movies that they aren't?

Luke dresses up as one ("Don't you look a bit too much like Mark Hamil for a stormtrooper?"). But maybe he was lucky, or didn't realise. Anything else?

(c) Do the books answer the question?

Yeah... sort of.

(d) Did Lucas intend

I'd say this is the one we haven't looked at yet.

smiling bandit
12-16-2004, 01:00 PM
In the original Star Wars, Stormtroopers were recruited through the Imperial Academy.

While sources vary, Lucas did say about a year ago that the Storntroopers in ANH were cloned from several different genetic stocks. While stormtroopers were, according to the novels, recruited soldiers, there may simply be two classes - clones and non-clones.

It's part of the series with kyp durron and the sun crusher ship. It used to be one of my favorites back in the nerd days.) there is a line about a stormtrooper taking off his helmet for the first time since he was recruited. So I guess they always wear the armor.

Oh god, not that. Its as bad as those "trilithium torpedos" crap. Oh, please....

He agreed to leave the planet busters out and I agreed to not use the Q, Organians, Douwd, Prophets, et al.

Well, to be fair, there are several "alternate futures" in trek and the various superbeings never bothered to help them out.

Isn't it stated somewhere in episode II that the clones age something like twice as fast as a normal person or something like that, with the exception of Boba, so they are probably all dead by the time of the original trilogy.

They likely stop maturing quickly when they reach adulthood. As goos as the cloners supposedly were, they obviously had the skill to make them that way.

Mandalorian Supercommando

I believe he is ethnically Mandalorian. That people may have helped Darth Vader hunt down and kill the Jedi.

iggy popov
12-16-2004, 01:10 PM
Something else just came to mind regarding the origins of Boba Fett.

I remember reading in more than one star wars book that his real name was actually Jaster Mereel or something to that effect. He was a "Journeyman Protector" some place called Concord Dawn or Down. Apperantly he was some sort of law enforcement official and was exiled for killing in cold blood. It was after this supposedly he started the whole bounty hunter with the armor thing.

smiling bandit
12-16-2004, 04:03 PM
That was one book. The official line is that Boba has spread numerous stories about his past to confuse his enemies.

Chastain86
12-16-2004, 04:26 PM
Any strong militia will attract its fair share of recruits. I think it's fair to assume that the Imperial Army is likely made up of mostly recruits, with the clones (if they are even still alive, at this point -- remember, the original batch would be as old as Obi Wan was in ANH) "graduating" to other positions.

After all, the officers were obviously not all clones of one another.

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