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Cartooniverse
07-05-2005, 08:03 PM
Over in This MPSIMS thread (http://boards.academicpursuits.us/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6333956), I expressed some concerns regarding the trust and secrecy issues enforced upon minor children of both genders by the Freemasons.

I'll quote back from my post in there to explain my concern:

Don't get me started on DeMolay. My 12 year old nephew was sucked into those people's claws.

I ask what he does when he goes away with total strangers ( all men ) for a weekend. He says it's a secret. No shit. A secret? I ask his parents. They say it's private and they cannot know. No shit. A private secret weekend get-away for adult men and 12 year old boys. Uh huh. F****rs.

I called his Youth Leader, and was directed to the State Youth Leader in Pennsylvania for DeMolay. I asked him two or three very pointed questions pertaining to activities, supervision and whatnot. I was given in return the biggest loads of shit one can possibly imagine ( and no answers whatsoever ). I called the guy on his shit, and his tone turned cold and he informed me that he had nothing to tell me. That it was private.

Private. Between the men and the boys. Oh yeah? F***rs.

So I called the Pennsylvania Attorney General's office, and lo and behold I find out that I am not the first adult to call and ask about these jokers. They've got quite a file on them. Why? Because it's 1996 ( at the time ) and not 1352 and men who dig taking 12 year old boys away for a weekend of "secret and very private" activities can expect to answer to the Attorney General.

F****rs. Again, lest we miss the subtle point, pedophile lying secretive bastards.

Yes, I do believe that covers it. Oh, wait- we have DeMolay fans reading? EXCELLENT. Do be good honest moral upstanding adults and answer the questions that nobody in DeMolay was permitted to answer. Anyone who is game, sound up and I will be oh so incredibly happy to outline every single query that was refused by The Youth Leader of Demolay for Pennsylvania.

Otherwise, well.................... who is worse? The pedophile or the other adults who cover for him? Hmmmm ?

You wanna join a private secret special society when you are 21 and an adult and entirely responsible for your actions? Right the heck on, welcome to America. You want to run a private society for underage boys that refuses to disclose ANYTHING about your rituals, behaviors, activities or whereabouts when travelling with other people's boys? Then, we gotta problem.

As for my nephew, this was a few years ago. He got out, but it was NOT easy. Apparently whatever they did to him and with him, to this day he is too frightened to discuss it. Some fuckin' social service organization. I might suggest that it insults the Knights of Columbus, Lions, Rotary Club and American Legion to be lumped in with the Freemasons and their underage boys club, DeMolay.

So, there you have it. I am respecting the wishes of the OP'er, and starting a totally separate thread so that his is not hijacked any more.

Are there any Dopers out there who have had negative or damaging or upsetting dealings with these groups who feel they can share them in the Dope? I would be highly surprised if my nephew is the only 12 year old boy ever told he's not allowed to tell anyone what he does when he goes away with adult men for the weekend. Not his Mom, not his Dad, not his uncle ( me ). Nobody, pretty much. See, it's secret.

Secret. So here's your chance to unburden some of those secrets. My nephew got out, but not easily. To this day he cannot talk about what happened during the years he was involved in DeMolay.

Are there any Dopers out there who can?

Since this is feeling like a poll of sorts, I've posted it into IMHO.

Cartooniverse

Cartooniverse
07-05-2005, 08:17 PM
Since this happened in Pennsylvania and that's where I ran into rude cold roadblocks, the quote from the Pennsylvania DeMolay Youth Protection Page (http://pademolay.org/youthprotection/yp8.html) is particularly ironic/appalling:

Because of our policies, and our desire to protect both our youth and adult volunteers, certain activities and situations simply aren't acceptable in our organization. In DeMolay, you should NEVER:
<snip> ( long list of bullet points )
* Be asked to mislead your parents, or not tell them where you are going or what you are doing.

In point of fact, this is exactly what occurred for years and years. He was not allowed to tell his parents where he went, or what they did. He told them what time he should be at the Temple for the trip, and what time to pick him up at the end of the trip. That's all.

Thoughts?

LouisB
07-05-2005, 08:34 PM
Re the five questions you raised in the other thread, and your request that I answer them, I cannot. Note that I say "cannot" and not "will not." I am not a past member of DeMolay, nor have I ever had any involvement with the organization. Therefore, I am not privy to any information about it. I simply noted that I personally have never heard a word of scandal associated with the organization nor those men who have been involved. As far as the inner works of the organization goes, you might well know more than I.

I do hope someone with more knowledge will respond; I've become curious.

CaveMike
07-05-2005, 09:53 PM
I thought it was interesting that the first Google hit for "DeMolay abuse" was the PA DeMolay youth protection policy (http://pademolay.org/youthprotection/).

Poking through some more of the hits did show one big abuse case in Florida (http://sptimes.com/News/022301/news_pf/SouthPinellas/Teen_sues_DeMolay_org.shtml).

Czarcasm
07-06-2005, 02:02 AM
Sorry, but this "poll" has no place in IMHO. You want to pit the group, and are asking for horror stories and information to further justify this pitting.

Moving this from IMHO to The BBQ Pit.

Hilarity N. Suze
07-06-2005, 03:12 AM
Okay, this was long ago, I was not in DeMolay (wrong sex), but I knew boys who were, and there's nothing. It's a youth group; the adult sponsors are Masons.

They did not go on trips with groups of adult men. These were boys with an adult leader or two. Sure, things can happen and have happened in those situations (think altar boys here, scout camp) but usually they don't.

It's just the kind of thing where you are told you will learn secrets you can't tell, and you learn them, and they are cheesy secrets but you already promised. Secret handshakes, secret distress signals, secret symbols.

And I never heard of anybody having a hard time getting out, as you said about your nephew in the MPSIMs thread. They just quit going. Or not. Same as any other Boy Scouts/Girl Scout/Rainbow/Job's Daughter/Circle K/fraternity/sorority.

The "secrets" are, as I said, cheesy. But if you tell somebody then they will know you are not a person who keeps his word, and you sure don't want to be thought of as a person who doesn't keep his word for the sake of a cheesy little secret handshake, do you?

Sorry, I know you expected something much worse.

Liz
07-06-2005, 03:23 AM
Just to throw in my useless two cents:

I used to work for an outsource of Dell Tech Support, and our offices were located in the same building as the Masonic Temple. We were on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th floors, the Masons on the 6th and 7th. I had the opportunity to share the elevator with Masons on several occasions, and one day I plucked up my courage enough to ask exactly what went on upstairs. The Mason [an older gentleman] seemed to have no qualms about telling me that it was a fraternal organization and they gathered to have dinners and dances and ceremonies pertaining to their history. He even showed me his costume [not the right word, I know, sorry] for the ceremony they were having that night, and told me they were having a collection [monetary] for the family of a recently and unexpectedly deceased member. Not worth much, I know, but I had heard about how secretive and weird the Freemasons [omg Illuminati!!11] were for years, and I found it enlightening how open and kind he was to my questions, espcially since I was a 19-year-old girl with black and scarlet red hair, a Lesbian Avengers t-shirt, and two tons of eyeliner.

LilyValy
07-06-2005, 04:12 AM
My grandfather was a Mason, I went to gatherings all the time when I was little. My entire family would go to the weekly pot luck on saturday afternoons. We went out to dinner frequently with other Masons. When I needed a babysitter, a wife or daughter of another Mason would normally come over to watch me. In all the time I spent with them, I don't remember any function when I felt uncomfortable.

I don't believe that it is common practice among the Masons to take a group of twelve year old boys and to exclude their fathers. Most of the children around Masonic gatherings are the children and grandchildren of members. I do find that the circumstances in the OP to be suspicious, but I don't believe that the majority of Masons operate in that manner.

Larry Mudd
07-06-2005, 04:57 AM
Hysterical much?

There's a category of people who "know" the Masons are up to something unsavory that requires the oaths and secrecy.

Usually, they fit in better over t' Art Bell or John Birch Society forums.

Seriously, what the fuck?

Paul in Qatar
07-06-2005, 05:25 AM
As to the OP, nope.

Well I got food poisoning from a late dinner after a Lodge meeting once. Elsewise, nope not at all.

Dan Norder
07-06-2005, 05:38 AM
Heck, Cartooniverse, from the original post and not knowing anything else about the situation, I have to agree with Larry Mudd here. I agree with the idea that they shouldn't tell the kids to not tell their parents what goes on (which apparently even the group agrees to officially), but you went from zero to psycho pretty much in no time flat.

What did the parents of this child have to say about it? Why is the uncle calling people up to give them a hard time? If the parents want to object and take the kid out of the group, great, but I don't get at all where you suddenly appoint yourself to try to raise a fit when the parents apparently don't think it's a big deal.

The King of Soup
07-06-2005, 06:18 AM
Respectfully, Cartooniverse, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. You've apparently concluded to your own satisfaction that the DeMolay organization is comprised largely of pedophiles. You'd like to convince others of the same. So you start a thread soliciting other SDMB members to provide you with anecdotes you can use as proof? Usually evidence comes before the accusation.

Your passion on the topic convinces me that you feel you have certainly proven the case in your own mind. But to outsiders who have not met your nephew, the fact that he won't talk to you about DeMolay admits of more than one explanation. Other than characterizing it as "loads of shit" you don't provide much information about what the PA DeMolay youth leader told you. And many people become uncommunicative when you ask pointed questions and call them on their shit, which I take to mean a less than respectful challenge of their answers. You don't explain at all what difficulties your nephew had in leaving the organization, so again there's a wide range of possibilities. Then there's the AG, who has amassed a lot of information ("quite a thick file") on the group. Well, what did the AG's office tell you? Better yet, what charges have they brought based on the information contained in that file?

Pedophilia is ugly and intolerable, but please consider that unwarranted accusations of it are not much less so, and you're spreading that mud awfully wide.

Well, you got one hit: Cave Mike provided a case in Florida, but it may not be damning or far-reaching enough for you: you've assumed a heavy burden of proof. You might consider laying some of it down by narrowing the scope of your accusations a little, at least until they can be supported with more facts.

TheLoadedDog
07-06-2005, 06:34 AM
I'm quite well-disposed towards the Masonic movement. My dad's a Mason. I think it is generally a benign organisation that does a lot of good in society - or at least tries to. Sure, there's a bit of networking too - good luck to 'em.

That said, I am on Cartooniverse's side here, assuming he's being truthful with us, and I have no reason to doubt him. In this day and age, it's not what you do, but what you are seen to do. Whether Cartooniverse has over-generalised or not is one thing, but dammit you don't take young boys away for the weekend with a bunch of grown men and not allow their parents to know every last detail down to the number of peas on their plates at breakfast.

I'm not a Mason, and I don't seek to know their secrets, beyond what they are willing to tell me. As said in this thread, if you actually ask a geuine Mason, they are happy to tell you quite a lot more than you might expect. I do know enough about Masonic ritual to know that "telling nothing about events between being dropped off at Temple and being picked up there again" is total BS. If they are pulling that stunt, then Cartooniverse has every right to start raising hell. As a dad, I'm damned sure I would.

Zakalwe
07-06-2005, 06:48 AM
I am a Mason and a DeMolay. Further, I'm from Florida. I was active in DeMolay from 1983-1989 and my father was active for several years longer than that. Here are my experiences and recollections about the organization:

1. DeMolay encourages the participation of both parents in almost everything. Mothers are not allowed to attend certain ceremonies (although there is a special ceremony just for them), but fathers can attend everything whether or not they are Masons.
2. For every trip, boys had to get an insurance form signed by at least one parent. This form explained the destination, length of stay, activities to be participated in, and requested medical information (allergies, medicines, etc), a contact number, and an authorization for emergency treatment. No form, no trip. AFAIK, this form was standard in Florida (required by our insurance carrier actually).
3. Hilarity is correct (at least in my experience), on every trip I went on, the DeMolay outnumbered the advisors (ususally by a large margin). Activities that were typical: playing sports, fishing, camping, cooking out, snipe hunts, fan-tan, and other teenage boy stuff. It was extremely rare and heavily discouraged for only one advisor to take a group anywhere.
4. Most of the advisors (at least when I was in) were fathers of the boys in their chapter. The younger ones were invariably former members, often the older brothers of current members.

WhyNot
07-06-2005, 07:27 AM
How did they prevent him from leaving or talking? How was he a member if his dad wasn't a Mason? if his dad was a Mason, why wasn't he active in DeMolay? Why werent you? How do you know he was too frightened of DeMolay to discuss it, as opposed to too frightened of his overreacting uncle? How do you know the secrecy wasn't your nephew's choice? You erroneously branded me frightened in the other thread,. Could you be projecting the same state on your nephew?

He was not allowed to tell his parents where he went, or what they did. He told them what time he should be at the Temple for the trip, and what time to pick him up at the end of the trip. That's all.
How do you know this wasn't your nephew's choice? How do you know he was not allowed? How did they prevent him?
Because of our policies, and our desire to protect both our youth and adult volunteers, certain activities and situations simply aren't acceptable in our organization. In DeMolay, you should NEVER:
<snip> ( long list of bullet points )
* Be asked to mislead your parents, or not tell them where you are going or what you are doing.
When did this case occur? That seems to address your concerns right there. If theyve changed their position on secrecy, whats the probem?

Something just doesnt add up here.

Czarcasm
07-06-2005, 08:14 AM
Thread closed per request of OP.

TVeblen
07-07-2005, 02:55 PM
Thread reopened; the OP's status re the Pit has been clarified.

Veb

js_africanus
07-07-2005, 03:08 PM
If you want me to tell you what happens in the ritual, the I'm going to have to advise you to grow up. Alternatively, you can become a Mason and thereby be allowed into the private ritual events.

As for not telling you what happens at all, that's fucked up. There is nothing secret except for a few ritual events per se, and the secret ones are a lot like the public ones.

You have some serious issues to work out, however. If your kids are going off with total strangers then shame on you for not getting involved. Ditto on your nephew's parents. It's a question of parental involvement, and parents do not have to be Masons to be involved in the organization. If you're so concerned, then you should get involved.

As for your accusations: give me a break. If you feel that youth groups are a sink for pedophiles (technically, not the correct term), then get involved and make a difference. The only option to your pedophilia concerns are to either eliminate youth groups altogether, or to have youth groups with no adult supervision whatsoever.

If a youth organization has problems with abuse, sexual or otherwise, we cannot blame the victims; however, the victims' parents do bear culpability for not being responsible parents.

So quit bitching and get involved. It'll do you some good, especially when you're old and infirmed and wishing you had some younger friends to keep you company.

BubbaDog
07-07-2005, 04:52 PM
Secret. So here's your chance to unburden some of those secrets. My nephew got out, but not easily. To this day he cannot talk about what happened during the years he was involved in DeMolay.If he was molested it wasn't because of any sanctioned actions of the organization. And actually, he can talk all that he wants to but it appears that the boy suffers froma condition called "having a little class". More likely is he made a promise to his fellow participants not to divulge the "secrets" of the organization to others.

The DeMolay organization is a fraternal order, not too different from from college fraternities and other bonding organizations like boy scouts, etc. One difference is that they have closed meetings (non-members are not allowed admission) which have a ritualistic structure. This is not so much to hide any activity as it is in remembrence of the founders of the organization who had to maintain secrecy to protect their lives from religious prosecution. The namesake, Jaques DeMolay, died as a result of religious prosecution. Their message or theme isn't so much a religion as it is people should have the right of self determination for their religious beliefs.




Are there any Dopers out there who can? I'm a former DeMolay. I won't tell you about their rituals either because I occaisionally show a little class myself, though not often if you ask some others around hear.

If I was inclined to "lose my class" and tell you all about the secrets I'm pretty sure I could have you nodding off from boredom in about 20 minutes.
It might be said that the most important thing about the secrets is that they encourage loyalty from the young men involved. In other words, the secrets aren't important but sharing them is.


Since this is feeling like a poll of sorts, I've posted it into IMHO.
Cartooniverse

Nope, its been very obvious to the members of this board that this is a pitting and you tried to wrap it in an IMHO envelope.

That just shows that not only have you been talking out of your ass but you also lack the balls participate in the one forum where your accusations it belong.

Point of Information: I am no longer involved in any Masonic order and have no desire to be in one. I lost interest in DeMolay and left the organization at 17. After leaving I saw no practical use in revealing the "secrets" to anyone.

js_africanus
07-08-2005, 09:29 AM
And actually, he can talk all that he wants to but it appears that the boy suffers froma condition called "having a little class". More likely is he made a promise to his fellow participants not to divulge the "secrets" of the organization to others.
I would like to agree but with a caveat, one that I hit on above and which I'm not entirely sure I sufficiently stressed. The amount of stuff DeMolay has that is actually secret is very small relative to the scope of activities in which they engage. If the organization's (sp?) advisors refuse to divulge what goes on outside of those ceremonies, then I do indeed say, "That's fucked up." I was a DeMolay, as was my brother, and my two sisters were Job's. I was even an officer at the state level of the organization.

In all honesty, the only thing I can think of where a whole weekend couldn't be divulged would be a ritual competition, but even then the kid could say, "It was a ritual competition. I can't tell you what happened, other than to say that different chapters competeted to see who did the best ritual. We got third." There may be secrets in the sense of boys making a pact to keep their adventures to themselves, but as far as the organization goes, the amount of secret activity is relatively small. Otherwise it's just the same old stuff that other groups do.

WhyNot
07-08-2005, 10:04 AM
I would like to agree but with a caveat, one that I hit on above and which I'm not entirely sure I sufficiently stressed. The amount of stuff DeMolay has that is actually secret is very small relative to the scope of activities in which they engage.
This only reinforces my guess that it's the OP's nephew who's into keeping secrets, not DeMolay itself. And if he approached the kid with the same level of predetermined paranoia that he's approached us, I can see why. My 12 year old has a hard enough time confiding in me when I'm calm and he knows he won't get in trouble. If I give off the vibe that I'm upset, he won't open his mouth to save his own hide.

And I agree that the non-secret stuff should be shared, both by the children and the leaders with the parents. My statements in the other thread were meant to indicate that I don't think ALL secrets are hiding pedophilia, and some secrets are good for moral and psychological development. A child should never be made to feel that a sexual secret needs to be kept, of course. But I see no reason to jump to the conclusion of "pedophile lying secretive bastards" with no evidence.

Perhaps there was evidence which Cartooniverse is not sharing with us in an effort to protect his nephew. Fine. But I still don't see why, even if his nephew was assaulted by a sick pervert asshole, that makes all of DeMolay "pedophile lying secretive bastards". That's a huge, libelous charge to tar a damn fine organization with when you have no evidence that there's a problem with the group as a whole. Asking for anecdotes, news reports and studies is a valid method of collecting data, but should be done BEFORE the general accusation is made public, or is made in such a scathing manner. The title of the thread alone would have been OK. The ugly accusations thrown at the whole group should wait until we have information on the whole group.

And the information isn't supporting the accusations, as it happens.

(Sorry for the horrible typos and odd syntax in my last post - my keyboard went kablooey, and I typed the whole damn thing with no middle row of letters - cut 'n' paste by letters and words. Was I ever relieved that it got in under the closing - I would have cried to spend all that time on it only to hit "Preview" and find the thread closed!)

elucidator
07-08-2005, 10:24 AM
What recent history has taught us is that there is no organization so benign and well-meaning that it cannot afford opportunity for pedophilic predators. The more benign to organization, the more likely it is to be naive.

DeMolay was terrific for me. The secrecy and mumbo-jumbo has no more malign signficance than the "No Gurls Aloud!" sign on the treehouse. Humans are suckers for rituals and secrecy, perhaps none more so than 14 year old boys.

Assuming, on no current information whatsoever, that it remains essentially similar today as it was then, I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to recommend it to another parent.

The Rosicrucians, however, that's a whole 'nother thing....

dropzone
07-08-2005, 10:46 AM
Okay, I can see the appeal of the secrecy and rituals, though I'd've thought they were pretty dorky when I was fourteen, but, when all is said (or unsaid) and done, how do you keep a kid in it once he finds out that the protestations of the adults are true and there are no secret plans for world domination and he's not going to get his own country with Lindsay Lohan catering to his every need and the only future awaiting a good little Mason is eventually becoming a Shriner and driving a go-kart that sorta looks like a flying carpet?

Frankly, the appeal is lost on me.

Baker
07-08-2005, 12:27 PM
It doesn't look as if Cartooniverse intends to respond, since things aren't quite going his way.

js_africanus
07-08-2005, 12:32 PM
It doesn't look as if Cartooniverse intends to respond, since things aren't quite going his way.
I don't know. I usually just get distracted away from threads.

jayjay
07-08-2005, 12:32 PM
It doesn't look as if Cartooniverse intends to respond, since things aren't quite going his way.

Cartooniverse, by way of longstanding tradition, does not post in the Pit. He didn't start this post in the Pit, it was moved here by a moderator, and so I don't expect him to rejoin the thread anytime soon.

This is not by way of being an attack on Cartooniverse, just a piece of information.

jayjay
07-08-2005, 12:42 PM
Just did a search on it, because I had thought it was the priest-pedophile situation that was the pivot point for him deciding it was better to avoid the Pit, but it appears that it was a Bush thread that made him decide to eschew the BBQ for almost two years (http://boards.academicpursuits.us/sdmb/search.php?searchid=986426) now.

Again, just as a point of information and to pre-emptively keep someone from being wrongly accused of abandoning their thread in a cowardly way.

The King of Soup
07-08-2005, 02:00 PM
I'm not interested in pitting Cartooniverse. But if he doesn't come back to this thread, he will certainly have adandoned it. "Cowardly" isn't a word I'd care to use. But I'm not sure "principled" applies here either.

If I decide, for the noblest of reasons, never again to leave my own backyard, that would be recognized as unassailable by most and lauded by some. If, some time later, I decide to cover my yard a foot deep in penguin poop, that probably would not be so widely praised (though a few of us would no doubt find it unutterably funny), but it would mostly be considered my business alone. However, if I'm spraying poop around and it ends up on the other side of the fence (blown there by a moderate breeze), my principled, honor-bound duty (imposed by myself) makes a awfully weak justification for ignoring the mess I made on my neighbors' property.

I don't think it matters much whether Cartooniverse placed the OP in another forum in good faith or not (though I'd expect an experienced poster to know that accusing a large organization, one which includes past and present members of this community, of pedophilia is Pit material, especially since the original test run got so heated in yet a third forum). What does matter is that there are two principles at work here: (a)Cartooniverse's promise to himself, and (b) the responsibility, once you've made an accusation this shocking, to either substantiate it or retract it. If he abandons this thread, I'll probably think he's defending the less-important of the two principles, to the detriment of truth and honest discussion.

The moral is: if you drop trash, you have to pick it up, even if it lands in the gutter.

BubbaDog
07-08-2005, 02:56 PM
..... If the organization's (sp?) advisors refuse to divulge what goes on outside of those ceremonies, then I do indeed say, "That's fucked up."I didn't address that but I agree with you.
Okay, I can see the appeal of the secrecy and rituals, though I'd've thought they were pretty dorky when I was fourteen, but, when all is said (or unsaid) and done, how do you keep a kid in it once he finds out that the protestations of the adults are true and there are no secret plans for world domination and he's not going to get his own country with Lindsay Lohan catering to his every need and the only future awaiting a good little Mason is eventually becoming a Shriner and driving a go-kart that sorta looks like a flying carpet?
The kids stay in the org because they develop friendships with the other kids in the org.

Frankly, the appeal is lost on me. It lost appeal for me too. In my case the DeMolay's association with Job's and Rainbows helped me learn how to socialize with girls. In high school I felt that I could find and date girls on my own. I had other interests and DeMolay slid to the bottom of the pile. I missed the guys I knew from DeMolay but didn't regret spending more time with cheerleaders. :D

King of Soup You are so right.

js_africanus
07-08-2005, 03:13 PM
The moral is: if you drop trash, you have to pick it up, even if it lands in the gutter.
Respectfully, that's a pretty bizarre metaphor for opening a thread and not continuing to reply. Indeed, being ADD I grew to be somewhat neurotic about always replying to something someone says, because when I was a kid I heard "your father said something to you" too many times to know when I was or wasn't supposed to say something back. In college a frat brother told me that I have a Very Bad Habit of always having to have the last word. I'll be damned before I'll play the game of trying to walk the line between Picking Up My Gutter Trash and Always Having The Last Word. There is no moral because there is no moral question being addressed; this is a message board and people get distracted, get things piled on them, and misestimate the amount of time and effort that will go into keeping up with a thread. C'est la vie.

dropzone
07-08-2005, 05:14 PM
It lost appeal for me too. In my case the DeMolay's association with Job's and Rainbows helped me learn how to socialize with girls.I can relate. I was in TeenAged Republicans for the chicks. They weren't cheerleaders but they had their own qualities.

The King of Soup
07-09-2005, 10:10 PM
Sorry if I blew any fuses with a fanciful metaphor, js_africanus. Everybody has different tastes with these things, and mine runs along a somewhat playful stream.

Stripped of the trimmings, my post was merely meant as a plea for people to behave as if they were responsible for what they say (always a losing cause on a pseudonymous message board). As in, if you make an accusation, be prepared to prove it or recant. Sure, it's possible to become distracted by all the bells and whistles and shiny things the SDMB (not to mention the entire internet) has to offer, but even a cursory reading of the OP suggests a personal involvement in this issue that I, if it were mine, would find it difficult to forget.

Inattention is not a valid excuse for a poster ignoring a thread started by him/herself to accuse someone, or several people, or an entire organization of a disgusting crime, especially if the purpose of the thread is to solicit anecdotal support for one's own, poorly-evidenced thesis. If an OP wishes to disavow a thread that ends up in the Pit, s/he can and should do so publicly. When that happens, I think the closest moderator should ride up and create an even bigger scene, as noisily as possible -- that is to say, close the thread quickly and painlessly, and immediately cobble together a neutral explanation that makes sense, or, rather, one that won't open him/her up to charges of favoritism, or whimsically makes light of and distracts from the reasons for any given decision. Either that, or things can go on as they are.

Road Rash
07-11-2005, 08:07 PM
A former DeMolay checking in here, although I never became a Mason. I had issues with them. Not secrecy issues. Shit, how secret is an organization that is so involved with charities. I had an issue with the defacto segregation that was still pervasive during the late 70's and early 80's Freemasons. It has changed somewhat. I was in an ice-cream shop where I saw a bunch of DeMolays, and there was actually a couple of black teenagers.

Back to topic. It sounds like this DeMolay went to a conclave, which includes ritual competitions. The rituals are likely similar to other fraternal orders, resembling more that of college fraternities. One degree is a symbolic journey where you get taken around and told things about how you should live your life. The other is a theatrical play of the Trial of Jacques Demolay (I performed the role of Senior Inquisitor, sort of the good cop vs. the Jr. Inquisitor's bad cop). These kids memorize their roles and perform both degrees, plus other meeting oriented rituals in competition against other chapters.

I am puzzled as to the secretivness of the above story. My folks knew where I was going. That I was competing in ritual performances. That we also would go to Six Flags afterward. The worst thing that happened is some older members got some beer (drinking age was 18), and we watched the soft core flicks on the hotel cable.

It sounds like maybe the kid is taking the "secret" aspect a little too far.

Road Rash
07-11-2005, 08:09 PM
There is no virgin sacrifices in the ritual, but I did sacrifice my virginity to a Rainbow girl!

Aubriella
06-04-2013, 03:13 PM
I am the parent of a Demolay and a Rainbow girl. Any parent is welcome to sit in on any of their "Secret" meetings. I did for the first long while but decided to stop before I died of boredom. Honestly the secrecy is just to make them feel special, like they know something we don't, they even have secret knocks and handshakes. They don't molest the children and don't discuss anything worthy of keeping secret. They both just do community service and make friends. We are not Christian, my son is a Buddhist, the Masons are a Christian based group but allow all who believe in something higher than themselves, as long as they have some kind of family relation to the Masons. My father's family are all Masons, and my Aunt is an Easter Star. I could join but I'm just not into the dressing up and the ceremonies. It's just a Do Gooders club (no offense meant) that likes to pretend to be sneaky and secretive. I would tell you more but made a promise not to reveal their "secrets", which are silly and no one would care to know anyways. This is just a big deal about nothing, I think the secrecy is just a tradition from when the Knights Templar were prosecuted and in danger of all being put to death so they had to be sneaky to live. My kids have both learned a lot about being a beneficial part of the community and have become part of a wonderful extended family, I know the Masons world wide would have their back if needed.

Inner Stickler
06-04-2013, 03:22 PM
Consider your comment noted and filed.

Czarcasm
06-04-2013, 03:36 PM
Idiot.Not a word you want to throw out there when answering a post from 8 years ago.

Darth Panda
06-04-2013, 03:39 PM
I am the parent of a Demolay and a Rainbow girl. Any parent is welcome to sit in on any of their "Secret" meetings. I did for the first long while but decided to stop before I died of boredom. Honestly the secrecy is just to make them feel special, like they know something we don't, they even have secret knocks and handshakes. They don't molest the children and don't discuss anything worthy of keeping secret. They both just do community service and make friends. We are not Christian, my son is a Buddhist, the Masons are a Christian based group but allow all who believe in something higher than themselves, as long as they have some kind of family relation to the Masons. My father's family are all Masons, and my Aunt is an Easter Star. I could join but I'm just not into the dressing up and the ceremonies. It's just a Do Gooders club (no offense meant) that likes to pretend to be sneaky and secretive. I would tell you more but made a promise not to reveal their "secrets", which are silly and no one would care to know anyways. This is just a big deal about nothing, I think the secrecy is just a tradition from when the Knights Templar were prosecuted and in danger of all being put to death so they had to be sneaky to live. My kids have both learned a lot about being a beneficial part of the community and have become part of a wonderful extended family, I know the Masons world wide would have their back if needed.

What on Earth were you Googling for that led you to an 8 year old thread about someone thinking the DeMolay order had some kind of pedophilia operation going on?

eta: Oh, and welcome to the Straight Dope. Nice first post.

Drunky Smurf
06-04-2013, 04:09 PM
Not a word you want to throw out there when answering a post from 8 years ago.

Sick burn. You sure showed her what not.

Rhythmdvl
06-04-2013, 04:26 PM
When this thread was first posted it was probably very difficult to find the following video (http://youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sztf4hcGrB4#t=11s).

(Kind of weird to think of 2005 as such a barbaric, desolate time without YouTube.)

BubbaDog
06-04-2013, 09:55 PM
Not a word you want to throw out there when answering a post from 8 years ago.

Why not?

It's not like Cartooniverse is no longer an idiot.

dropzone
06-04-2013, 11:02 PM
(Kind of weird to think of 2005 as such a barbaric, desolate time without YouTube.)I honestly don't know how we functioned, like an existence without Google.

It's good to see my posts haven't aged, being as stupid now as they were in 2005. But I didn't confess my bad experience with the Masons, and I need to come clean if I'm to sleep tonight:

I find them boring.

There, I said it! I feel so much better.

LouisB
06-05-2013, 06:15 AM
I honestly don't know how we functioned, like an existence without Google.

It's good to see my posts haven't aged, being as stupid now as they were in 2005. But I didn't confess my bad experience with the Masons, and I need to come clean if I'm to sleep tonight:

I find them boring.

There, I said it! I feel so much better.

A member of our anti-defamation league will be calling on you in the near future.

Monty
06-05-2013, 07:07 AM
How about some answers from a DeMolay, me?

Don't get me started on DeMolay. My 12 year old nephew was sucked into those people's claws.

Sucked into? Hmm...last I heard, the teens needed a parent's permission to join.

I ask what he does when he goes away with total strangers ( all men ) for a weekend. He says it's a secret. No shit. A secret? I ask his parents. They say it's private and they cannot know. No shit. A private secret weekend get-away for adult men and 12 year old boys. Uh huh. F****rs.

Complete and utter bullshit. There are secrets, but those are the ones regarding the ritual. The ritual is basically a boy's club's secret password dressed up with candles, robes, and long toy swords. Trips always required a signed permission and insurance form from the member's parent or legal guardian.

I called his Youth Leader, and was directed to the State Youth Leader in Pennsylvania for DeMolay. I asked him two or three very pointed questions pertaining to activities, supervision and whatnot. I was given in return the biggest loads of shit one can possibly imagine ( and no answers whatsoever ). I called the guy on his shit, and his tone turned cold and he informed me that he had nothing to tell me. That it was private.

Maybe he was having you. Anyway, all activities are required to have an adult present. Well, of course, going to the loo doesn't require that; I'm talking about club activities. My chapter had all kinds of activities: bowling, billiards, swimming (not naked), camping, debating, and a few others.

Private. Between the men and the boys. Oh yeah? F***rs.

Well, my experience with DeMolay and the experience of my DeMolay friends I've met over the years is opposite your rant. If the chapter in question is being that secretive about their activities, they're violating the group's rules right off the bat.

So I called the Pennsylvania Attorney General's office, and lo and behold I find out that I am not the first adult to call and ask about these jokers. They've got quite a file on them. Why? Because it's 1996 ( at the time ) and not 1352 and men who dig taking 12 year old boys away for a weekend of "secret and very private" activities can expect to answer to the Attorney General.

F****rs. Again, lest we miss the subtle point, pedophile lying secretive bastards.

Just for fun, you wouldn't happen to have anything approaching actual evidence that any crimes occurred, would you?

Yes, I do believe that covers it. Oh, wait- we have DeMolay fans reading? EXCELLENT. Do be good honest moral upstanding adults and answer the questions that nobody in DeMolay was permitted to answer. Anyone who is game, sound up and I will be oh so incredibly happy to outline every single query that was refused by The Youth Leader of Demolay for Pennsylvania.

Well, I'm a DeMolay and I'm fully aware that one can resign from the club, one is required to have an adult present at club activities, and that members are not to hoodwink their parents.

Otherwise, well.................... who is worse? The pedophile or the other adults who cover for him? Hmmmm ?

What about total assholes who cast aspersions without evidence? Where do they fit in this matrix?

You wanna join a private secret special society when you are 21 and an adult and entirely responsible for your actions? Right the heck on, welcome to America. You want to run a private society for underage boys that refuses to disclose ANYTHING about your rituals, behaviors, activities or whereabouts when travelling with other people's boys? Then, we gotta problem.

Well, Houston, your description of DeMolay is inaccurate. Sounds like DeMolay's not the problem.

As for my nephew, this was a few years ago. He got out, but it was NOT easy.

It's incredibly fucking easy to get out of DeMolay. Resign or simply stop going.

Apparently whatever they did to him and with him, to this day he is too frightened to discuss it. Some fuckin' social service organization. I might suggest that it insults the Knights of Columbus, Lions, Rotary Club and American Legion to be lumped in with the Freemasons and their underage boys club, DeMolay.

What's insulting is your inaccurate tarring of the DeMolay for what appears to be something that's just speculation on your part. Hell, you can get some answers to your questions right off the bat here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeMolay). You can get answers here (http://demolay.org/). And if you're not thrilled with the answers you got (or didn't get) from the local or state level, you can call the national level.

So, what did I miss? Weekend events were always camps just like any other boys' club or "conclave" which is a state-wide meeting of DeMolays. There were various activities there, none of which involved hopping into bed with the adult male chaperones or with any of the other boys.

Monty
06-05-2013, 07:12 AM
Drat! It's a zombie thread!

Bridget Burke
06-05-2013, 08:29 AM
I'll bet some guy now all grown up is still chuckling about how he freaked out his Uncle Cartooniverse. The old guy will believe anything!

Darth Panda
06-05-2013, 08:32 AM
Drat! It's a zombie thread!

Yeah, those kids are totally legal by now.

Harvey The Heavy
06-05-2013, 09:53 AM
I'll bet some guy now all grown up is still chuckling about how he freaked out his Uncle Cartooniverse. The old guy will believe anything!

Yeah, that's about my take on it. If I had an uncle prone to these kind of rants, I probably wouldn't be very forthcoming either.

BrainGlutton
06-05-2013, 12:09 PM
How about some answers from a DeMolay, me?

Just so long as you watch what you say, and do not incur the fearful penalty of having your eyeball pierced to the center with a three-edged blade.

Really Not All That Bright
06-05-2013, 12:25 PM
I'll bet some guy now all grown up is still chuckling about how he freaked out his Uncle Cartooniverse. The old guy will believe anything!
In all fairness, I don't think it's unreasonable to be concerned about an organization that sends children on secret camping trips (or whatever) and refuses to disclose how those trips are supervised, and so on (notwithstanding their apparent policy.)

Shodan
06-05-2013, 01:21 PM
In all fairness, I don't think it's unreasonable to be concerned about an organization that sends children on secret camping trips (or whatever) and refuses to disclose how those trips are supervised...
To the crackpot uncles of their members? After a signed insurance form from the parent?

I have never been a member of Demolay, but if I were the attorney general of my state and some nutcase called me up worried that his nephew was going to be attacked by perverted Shriners on a camping trip, I might not necessarily wet myself in terror. IYSWIM.

Regards,
Shodan

BubbaDog
06-05-2013, 03:03 PM
In all fairness, I don't think it's unreasonable to be concerned about an organization that sends children on secret camping trips (or whatever) and refuses to disclose how those trips are supervised, and so on (notwithstanding their apparent policy.)

If you find such an organization please let us know.

SteveG1
06-05-2013, 04:07 PM
It's all super double plus secret because they are training all your chldren to help them take over the world. And steal our precious bodily fluids.

Yeah. that's the ticket.

Czarcasm
06-05-2013, 04:09 PM
Once again-eight years ago, people.

SteveG1
06-05-2013, 04:16 PM
Once again-eight years ago, people.

It's SO secret, I just found out? :D

AngelSoft
06-06-2013, 02:16 AM
What on Earth were you Googling for that led you to an 8 year old thread about someone thinking the DeMolay order had some kind of pedophilia operation going on?

eta: Oh, and welcome to the Straight Dope. Nice first post.

And why the hell did you put your daughter into Rainbow and not Job's Daughters? Clearly she had the required Masonic relative. For shame! JDs over Rainbow any day!...... Though that floaty walk IS awesome...

elucidator
06-06-2013, 11:22 AM
Well, the whole "rainbow" thing....could get kinda confusing.

MOIDALIZE
06-06-2013, 11:38 AM
Holy DeMolay! A zombie thread!

Zakalwe
06-06-2013, 10:03 PM
Heh. This is funny. I don't remember writing my post in this thread at all. Everything I said is right though. Monty's is spot on as well. AngelSoft's is slightly wrong - Rainbow Girls were better - ummm, let's just say partiers - than JDs, so, for a teenage boy, better.

Monty
06-07-2013, 12:05 AM
Heh. This is funny. I don't remember writing my post in this thread at all. Everything I said is right though. Monty's is spot on as well. AngelSoft's is slightly wrong - Rainbow Girls were better - ummm, let's just say partiers - than JDs, so, for a teenage boy, better.

When I was active in DeMolay, our area had both Job's Daughters and Rainbow Girls. We also had Knighthood, which was kind of fun, but more businesslike than "standard" DeMolay.

Monty
06-07-2013, 12:14 AM
Speaking of Masonic-sponsored youth organizations, here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_Pythagoras#Youth_organizations) is a short list from Wikipedia.

AngelSoft
06-07-2013, 12:37 AM
Heh. This is funny. I don't remember writing my post in this thread at all. Everything I said is right though. Monty's is spot on as well. AngelSoft's is slightly wrong - Rainbow Girls were better - ummm, let's just say partiers - than JDs, so, for a teenage boy, better.

Proof positive why it's better to put your daughters in JD and not Rainbow. :p

Cartooniverse
06-07-2013, 06:17 PM
Idiot? Wow.

I am the parent of a Demolay and a Rainbow girl. Any parent is welcome to sit in on any of their "Secret" meetings.

Utter lie. I tried. Was informed unless a Mason had invited my son into Demolay already and he was a secrecy-sworn member, I had no place at those meetings. It was my brother's son I was concerned about. I was refused all access.

I did for the first long while but decided to stop before I died of boredom. Honestly the secrecy is just to make them feel special, like they know something we don't, they even have secret knocks and handshakes. They don't molest the children and don't discuss anything worthy of keeping secret.

Oh? Don't tell me that children in that organization (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2199&dat=19940107&id=u7UyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=quYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3538,1985992) are safe (http://freemasonrywatch.org/molestation.html) from sexual abuse from within Demolay (http://peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/local/news/paedophile-teacher-beat-boys-mercilessly-with-hosepipe-1-85930) and The Masons (http://cjonline.com/news/2013-04-04/teen-charged-sex-crimes-worked-bus-monitor). Just four of many many instances of child rape by Demolay adult supervisors.

Moving on...

They both just do community service and make friends. We are not Christian, my son is a Buddhist, the Masons are a Christian based group but allow all who believe in something higher than themselves, as long as they have some kind of family relation to the Masons. My father's family are all Masons, and my Aunt is an Easter Star. I could join but I'm just not into the dressing up and the ceremonies. It's just a Do Gooders club (no offense meant) that likes to pretend to be sneaky and secretive. I would tell you more but made a promise not to reveal their "secrets", which are silly and no one would care to know anyways.

So? Read the banner at the top of the page. We're interested in fighting ignorance. Since every single NON-member of the Masons is ignorant 100% as to the secret sneaky traditions and rules and behaviors, why not assume the truth here- that we broker in real truths. Tell us everything if it's just "silly". We're waiting.

This is just a big deal about nothing, I think the secrecy is just a tradition from when the Knights Templar were prosecuted and in danger of all being put to death so they had to be sneaky to live. My kids have both learned a lot about being a beneficial part of the community and have become part of a wonderful extended family, I know the Masons world wide would have their back if needed.

How wonderful for your children that they escaped unscathed and have good memories of the experience.

A history of the Knights Templar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar). Wiki. By no means exhaustive, but I trust an overview delivered here as well as anywhere else. The poster I am replying to attempts to convince that all faiths are welcome, that Masons are not Christian-centric. Since the decline of the Knights Templar was accelerated by the rise of Islam, I would be very curious to see hard numbers on the percentage of Masons and Demolay and Rainbow that are Muslim. I suspect it's a number too small to count. Still, we're about fighting ignorance here. Hard numbers on the percentage of Muslims who are currently Masons, please.

Monty
06-07-2013, 09:08 PM
Idiot? Wow.

Yes, you're an idiot in this thread. "Wow," indeed.

Utter lie. I tried. Was informed unless a Mason had invited my son into Demolay already and he was a secrecy-sworn member, I had no place at those meetings. It was my brother's son I was concerned about. I was refused all access.

You were refused access to the closed ritual. Do you know why? Because your son wasn't in the club. Your brother, being the actual parent of a person actually in the club, would be permitted access. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Oh? Don't tell me that children in that organization (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2199&dat=19940107&id=u7UyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=quYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3538,1985992) are safe (http://freemasonrywatch.org/molestation.html) from sexual abuse from within Demolay (http://peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/local/news/paedophile-teacher-beat-boys-mercilessly-with-hosepipe-1-85930) and The Masons (http://cjonline.com/news/2013-04-04/teen-charged-sex-crimes-worked-bus-monitor). Just four of many many instances of child rape by Demolay adult supervisors.

So that's four. How many instances were there? How many instances have not been addressed by the legal authorities?

Moving on...

So? Read the banner at the top of the page. We're interested in fighting ignorance.

That's right. It'd be nifty if you'd try not to spread more ignorance like you're doing in this thread.

Since every single NON-member of the Masons is ignorant 100% as to the secret sneaky traditions and rules and behaviors, why not assume the truth here- that we broker in real truths. Tell us everything if it's just "silly". We're waiting.

Wait on. "Secret sneaky traditions and rules and behaviors," huh? You prove yet again that you're being an idiot in this thread.

How wonderful for your children that they escaped unscathed and have good memories of the experience.

Everyone I know who was involved in Freemasonry (Blue Lodge, Scottish Rite, York Rite, Prince Hall, Eastern Star, Shriners) and its appendant bodies (, DeMolay and Knighthood, Job's Daughters, Rainbow Girls, etc.), in various states in the US, in American communities in South Korea and Japan, and both Americans and Germans in Germany escaped unscathed. That's because the incrediby vast majority of the members and their leaders are not out barebacking all the nubile teens like you're pretending it's set up for.

A history of the Knights Templar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar). Wiki. By no means exhaustive, but I trust an overview delivered here as well as anywhere else. The poster I am replying to attempts to convince that all faiths are welcome,

All faiths are welcome in Freemasonry provided that faith has the concept of a supreme being. And, yes, even Buddhists have been known to join. One of my platoon-mates when we were stationed in Monterey is a DeMolay and a Buddhist. There are specialty clubs within Freemasonry for those specifically of one faith.

that Masons are not Christian-centric.

They're not. There have been Buddhists, Christians, Jews, and even Muslims in Freemasonry.

Since the decline of the Knights Templar was accelerated by the rise of Islam, I would be very curious to see hard numbers on the percentage of Masons and Demolay and Rainbow that are Muslim.

Are you purposely being this idiotic? The Knights Templar which declined due to the rise of Islam is not the same group as the Masonic group known as Knights Templar.

I suspect it's a number too small to count.

Well, given that the club began in western Europe at a time when damn near everyone in said region happened to not be Muslim, it's not that big a surprise that Muslims simply haven't had a tradition of joining Freemasonry for the most part in Islamic countries, and, continued that tradition of not joining over to the countries where they've immigrated. Here (http://freemasons-freemasonry.com/freemasonry-islamic-countries.html) is a site about Freemasonry in Islamic countries. There's a bullet list from an Islamic authority on reasons why Muslims should not join Freemasonry. The bullet list has some laughable assertions, but the fact is that authority promulgated the list as a basis for its decision. It's really not far different from the rationale the Papacy used to prohibit Roman Catholics from joining. (I do not know if Roman Catholics are still barred by their Church from joining; I do know, on the other hand, a number of Roman Catholics who were in my DeMolay chapter and Knighthood Priory.)

Still, we're about fighting ignorance here. Hard numbers on the percentage of Muslims who are currently Masons, please.

Well, since a candidate's religion is not specifically asked, do you think that's even possible to get that information?

Want some advice? Here it is: Get a grip, man.

Cartooniverse
06-07-2013, 09:28 PM
You were refused access to the closed ritual. Do you know why? Because your son wasn't in the club. Your brother, being the actual parent of a person actually in the club, would be permitted access. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Got nothing to hide? Let family in. Oh wait, I thought this was such a family-centric group. What's to hide then?

So that's four. How many instances were there? How many instances have not been addressed by the legal authorities?

You do realize how utterly inane that last question is, don't you? " How many crimes were committed that the authorities don't know about?! Answer up!" Moron.


That's right. It'd be nifty if you'd try not to spread more ignorance like you're doing in this thread.

Spreading ignorance? Well, if you're accusing me of making up fictitious cites, then yes. I've spread ignorance. If you admit the sexual assaults detailed in the cites are real, then I've used cite to prove my point. Not to spread ignorance. Why are you struggling with the idea that Demolay is unsafe for some children?



Wait on. "Secret sneaky traditions and rules and behaviors," huh? You prove yet again that you're being an idiot in this thread. If they're not secret, then someone should come on in here and share them.


Everyone I know who was involved in Freemasonry (Blue Lodge, Scottish Rite, York Rite, Prince Hall, Eastern Star, Shriners) and its appendant bodies (, DeMolay and Knighthood, Job's Daughters, Rainbow Girls, etc.), in various states in the US, in American communities in South Korea and Japan, and both Americans and Germans in Germany escaped unscathed. That's because the incrediby vast majority of the members and their leaders are not out barebacking all the nubile teens like you're pretending it's set up for.

How coy of you. Why, I'd expect better of a Scientific Advisor. Let me slowly explain this to you since the cites given apparently are regarded by you as whole cloth fiction. You can name as many countries as you wish. As many silly club names as you can dredge up. The irrefutable fact remains that a secret organization that aggressively fights being observed and refuses to answer questions about its practices has within it sexual predators. You can say it doesn't. You can say the cites provided are lies. Just because you badly need to believe that doesn't make it the truth.

Are you purposely being this idiotic? The Knights Templar which declined due to the rise of Islam is not the same group as the Masonic group known as Knights Templar.

Freemasonry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar_%28Freemasonry%29) The Order derives its name from the historical Knights Templar, but does not claim any direct lineal descent from the original Templar order. Agreed- not the same group, even though their name is derived from it. So, fair to say, inspired on some levels by them. Otherwise, why did these wise and wholesome chaps take the name?:dubious:

Cartooniverse
06-07-2013, 09:37 PM
I've been advised to change my tune and get a grip.

So, you're entirely correct in everything you said your last post, Monty.

Grip gotten on my way out the door.

Monty
06-07-2013, 09:50 PM
Nowhere did I assert that the cites you provided are fiction. I simply pointed out that you're condemning an entire group for the illegal actions of a very few.

Why did the current Knights Templar take the name? Same reason as any group at the time it was founded take whatever name they took: they liked the sound of the name, they liked what they thought it stands for. Speaking of what it stands for today (http://knightstemplar.org/faq.html):
The Order of Knights Templar Today

The Order of Knights Templar today exists as the top ranking Masonic organization in the York Rite of Freemasonry. The Order today requires membership in a Chapter of Royal Arch Masons and in some jurisdictions, membership in a Council of Royal and Select Masters.

The Knights Templar is a Christian-oriented fraternal organization based on the ancient organization that was founded in the 11th century. Today, the Knights Templar display their courage and goodwill in different ways than the ancient Templars. Members of the Order today organize fund-raising activities such as breakfasts, dinners, dances and flea markets for the support of Masonic-related youth groups, in addition to raising millions of dollars for charitable purposes.

This from you is ridiculous:

The irrefutable fact remains that a secret organization that aggressively fights being observed and refuses to answer questions about its practices has within it sexual predators.

The fact is that Freemasonry is not a secret organization. Hey, it was so secret you even knew where the meetings are held, what time, and who's there! Freemasonry dosn't aggressively fight being observed nor do they refuse to answer questions about their practices and purposes. Well, there is the little bit about the club password, but that's not at all what you're pretending it is.

In addition to my advice above for you to get a grip, here's some more advice: Don't pretend I said something I did not say.

Miller
06-08-2013, 05:57 AM
Got nothing to hide? Let family in. Oh wait, I thought this was such a family-centric group. What's to hide then?

When you called this organization up, did you offer any verification that you were,in fact, related to one of the children in their organization? Even if you did establish your identity, do you think it would be remotely appropriate for this organization to divulge any information about a minor child under their care to you with out the express permission of the child's legal guardian?

Do your nephew's parents know that you make a habit of investigating your nephew's social life for pedophiles?

Monty
06-08-2013, 06:07 AM
Miller: See post #66. Evidently (heh, heh) things weren't going his way and he's "on [his] way out the door."

Zakalwe
06-08-2013, 09:13 AM
When I was active in DeMolay, our area had both Job's Daughters and Rainbow Girls. We also had Knighthood, which was kind of fun, but more businesslike than "standard" DeMolay.Ditto. Knighthood was kind of cool, but Knighthood groups were more regional in nature as no one city here in rural North Florida had enough boys to support one (IIRC Knighthood was restricted to older Demolays. 16+?). Which was really one of the benefits as it let you get to know Demolays from other chapters.

Proof positive why it's better to put your daughters in JD and not Rainbow. :pStill it just seemed like the Rainbow's had more fun in general. I suspect that local variation has a LOT to do with it though - the group with more engaged advisors and/or a better cadre of older girls willing to participate will be the "better" one in a given area. For you that was JD, around here it was RG (at least in the early-to-late eighties. No idea what the landscape is now.

Captain Amazing
06-08-2013, 11:02 AM
Freemasonry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar_%28Freemasonry%29) Agreed- not the same group, even though their name is derived from it. So, fair to say, inspired on some levels by them. Otherwise, why did these wise and wholesome chaps take the name?:dubious:

Because "We're descended from an ancient order of noble Christian knights" sounds better than "We were founded by a bunch of rich guys who took over a medieval craft guild for their social club"?

sherman92
09-18-2013, 06:39 PM
Over in This MPSIMS thread (http://boards.academicpursuits.us/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6333956), I expressed some concerns regarding the trust and secrecy issues enforced upon minor children of both genders by the Freemasons.

I'll quote back from my post in there to explain my concern:


So, there you have it. I am respecting the wishes of the OP'er, and starting a totally separate thread so that his is not hijacked any more.

Are there any Dopers out there who have had negative or damaging or upsetting dealings with these groups who feel they can share them in the Dope? I would be highly surprised if my nephew is the only 12 year old boy ever told he's not allowed to tell anyone what he does when he goes away with adult men for the weekend. Not his Mom, not his Dad, not his uncle ( me ). Nobody, pretty much. See, it's secret.

Secret. So here's your chance to unburden some of those secrets. My nephew got out, but not easily. To this day he cannot talk about what happened during the years he was involved in DeMolay.

Are there any Dopers out there who can?

Since this is feeling like a poll of sorts, I've posted it into IMHO.

Cartooniverse

I have to say that I respect your opinion however your one hundred percent wrong. I tried doing other groups such as boy scouts which is hell of a lot worse. Because your in the middle of no where with a scout leader. Demolay I really fit in. Because the people were nicer and when we did over night trips the boys roomed by ourselves with other chapter brothers and advisors would be clear on the other floor in the hotel. I am a senior DeMolay I aged out but now I am a advisor in the local chapter. What your insinuating has never happened ever to my knowledge because the adults aren't involved. Its the boys organization they plan it all we just advise and attend so that people like your nephew don't get hurt. For my chapter of thirty something boys there are only two advisors needed to keep a eye out. Demolay and other mason organizations have played a huge role in my life. I entered a essay completion for DeMolay in high school and I was able to travel to Anaheim California to attend their international session and went to Disney land for free. And I barely saw the advisors the entire weekend. Its a wonderful opportunity for young men and it teaches them to be better.

sherman92
09-18-2013, 06:43 PM
Over in This MPSIMS thread (http://boards.academicpursuits.us/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6333956), I expressed some concerns regarding the trust and secrecy issues enforced upon minor children of both genders by the Freemasons.

I'll quote back from my post in there to explain my concern:


So, there you have it. I am respecting the wishes of the OP'er, and starting a totally separate thread so that his is not hijacked any more.

Are there any Dopers out there who have had negative or damaging or upsetting dealings with these groups who feel they can share them in the Dope? I would be highly surprised if my nephew is the only 12 year old boy ever told he's not allowed to tell anyone what he does when he goes away with adult men for the weekend. Not his Mom, not his Dad, not his uncle ( me ). Nobody, pretty much. See, it's secret.

Secret. So here's your chance to unburden some of those secrets. My nephew got out, but not easily. To this day he cannot talk about what happened during the years he was involved in DeMolay.

Are there any Dopers out there who can?

Since this is feeling like a poll of sorts, I've posted it into IMHO.

Cartooniverse

Also, you could have easily fixed the problem if you attended the initiation of your nephew theres a line for family members that invite you to get involved. And you can be able to know all those things

Sitnam
09-18-2013, 07:14 PM
Miller: See post #66. Evidently (heh, heh) things weren't going his way and he's "on [his] way out the door."
Sneer all you like, dude was beating you to death in this thread.

The Second Stone
09-18-2013, 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by Cartooniverse View Post


Secret. So here's your chance to unburden some of those secrets. My nephew got out, but not easily. To this day he cannot talk about what happened during the years he was involved in DeMolay.

"cannot talk about what happened?" You mean the rules do not allow him to do so, or he has some weird psychological reaction? It's a secret fraternity. Surely you are familiar with secret fraternities and clubs. They are all over the place. Personally, I find the secrecy of these kinds of organizations preposterous and would never join one. But different strokes for different folks.

And you do need to "get a grip." You are his uncle, not his father or guardian. Why do you care? If you have any reasonable suspicion based on evidence that molestation of some such criminal activity is going on, report it to the police. You have none. That doesn't mean it never happens. Those crimes go on all over the world, but that doesn't mean that each and every chapter is abusing its members, or that it is even frequent.

You seem to be irrationally going off on the fact that the boys have a secret that they have promised not to tell you about their handshakes, rituals and so forth and are trying to find out by suggesting that someone in this chapter is up to no-good. Without any evidence other than you've been told it is none of your business. Well, it is none of your business unless you suspect a crime based on something other than being outside the circle.

Frankly, you come off as a really creepy uncle in this thread, which is far from your usual posting.

If you really want to find out what a particular masonic order does, go down to your local library or local masonic book shop and look at the books they have. It isn't really that secret.

It is a legit youth organization, that like all youth organizations, has from time to time attracted secret pedophiles, who are prosecuted when found out. But on the whole, it does the boys a lot of good to find a place where they can fit in during their teen years.

BrainGlutton
09-18-2013, 10:24 PM
As to the OP, nope.

Well I got food poisoning from a late dinner after a Lodge meeting once. Elsewise, nope not at all.

Yeah, that's how they got Mozart . . .

Ferret Herder
09-18-2013, 11:01 PM
Just a note that this is a newly re-zombified thread and was originally posted in 2005. Said nephew is now around 20 years old.

BrainGlutton
09-18-2013, 11:21 PM
Just a note that this is a newly re-zombified thread and was originally posted in 2005. Said nephew is now around 20 years old.

And traumatized for life, needle tracks all up and down his cock, hanging around bus-station and truck-stop men's rooms selling blowjobs . . .

Monty
09-19-2013, 07:01 PM
Sneer all you like, dude was beating you to death in this thread.

Evidently your reading's not much better than sherm's writing.

Sitnam
09-19-2013, 07:33 PM
Evidently your reading's not much better than sherm's writing.
I don't even have a dog in this fight, but debate is a skill and you got your rhetorical ass kicked. You could be right, you just don't have much to crow about upon that shit heap of an effort you put forth, which is all I pointed out.

Monty
09-19-2013, 08:21 PM
Actually, I put forth facts. Not bullshit. Not unsubstantiated opinions. Not inane muttering. Facts. Just facts. I didn't get my butt kicked.

Not Carlson
09-19-2013, 09:24 PM
I don't even have a dog in this fight, but debate is a skill and you got your rhetorical ass kicked. You could be right, you just don't have much to crow about upon that shit heap of an effort you put forth, which is all I pointed out.

How can I sign up for your debate club?
Cause if frothing at the mouth, flinging poop, and stomping out the door are considered to be winning stratergies, your club parties must be wild!

Sitnam
09-19-2013, 09:42 PM
Actually, I put forth facts. Not bullshit. Not unsubstantiated opinions. Not inane muttering. Facts. Just facts. I didn't get my butt kicked.
Cartooniverse cited 4 cases of molestation and your response was "So, how many didn't get reported!".

So you think that isn't inane muttering and you only cite facts?

Inner Stickler
06-02-2014, 12:28 PM
I can tell you're going to fit in quite well here.

MOIDALIZE
06-02-2014, 12:35 PM
The Internet ™.

Really Not All That Bright
06-02-2014, 12:50 PM
Reported.

Oredigger77
06-02-2014, 01:04 PM
What's the record for a non-spam banning?

Just Asking Questions
06-02-2014, 01:12 PM
My question, in all sincerity, is why do some people sign up just to make one insult, but yet pick a "good" name? Why don't they pick "Cartooniverseisafuckingidiot" (for example) or just "12" or something? They're never coming back.

Maybe that should be a new thread, I dunno. I wonder sometimes if I wonder too much.

Alessan
06-02-2014, 01:28 PM
My question, in all sincerity, is why do some people sign up just to make one insult, but yet pick a "good" name? Why don't they pick "Cartooniverseisafuckingidiot" (for example) or just "12" or something? They're never coming back.


It's probably their usual username - they've been banned under it on dozens of boards.

Or maybe' he's actually Tom DeLonge.

BrainGlutton
06-02-2014, 04:10 PM
I must admit it did annoy me a little when the Freemasons destroyed the World Trade Center, caused WWII and the Holocaust, engineered the French Revolution and the Bolshevik Revolution and the American Civil War and the 1918 Spanish Flu Epidemic, fluoridated our water, introduced 1980s fashions and music, and so on, but I've never had any problem with them personally.

Calatin
06-02-2014, 05:16 PM
I must admit it did annoy me a little when the Freemasons destroyed the World Trade Center, caused WWII and the Holocaust, engineered the French Revolution and the Bolshevik Revolution and the American Civil War and the 1918 Spanish Flu Epidemic, fluoridated our water, introduced 1980s fashions and music, and so on, but I've never had any problem with them personally.

That's because you don't hear what they are saying about you behind your back. :p

Zakalwe
06-02-2014, 07:08 PM
Nor will he...EVER. :)

Boyo Jim
06-03-2014, 12:31 AM
I must admit it did annoy me a little when the Freemasons destroyed the World Trade Center, caused WWII and the Holocaust, engineered the French Revolution and the Bolshevik Revolution and the American Civil War and the 1918 Spanish Flu Epidemic, fluoridated our water, introduced 1980s fashions and music, and so on, but I've never had any problem with them personally.

All those things led to me being in a nice comfy condo with a middle class standard of living and all the beer I can drink in the fridge. So, yeah Freemasons!

beowulff
06-03-2014, 12:46 AM
It's probably their usual username - they've been banned under it on dozens of boards.

Or maybe' he's actually Tom DeLonge.

Not just banned, but evaporated!

What did he post?

Well this is stupid
07-12-2014, 01:53 AM
I've been a member since i was eligible and it is a fantastic places for young men. if someone has a bad experience with DeMolay then its probably the select adults that abuse that privilege of being a parental figure. Dont condemn the group. I myself have never gone a camp out with male adults. that never even gets offered to us because we arent boy scouts, we dont teach you how to survive in the woods and how to tie a thousands knots. we teach young men how to organize events, how to properly dress, how to serve food in a formal manner, how to honor womanhood. we even have a ceremony to explain our general purposes to the public. and besides the point our parents are more than welcome to know our secrets, most learn them when we do and most are, you guessed it, little handshakes, modes of recognition, stuff like that. more importantly most of the adults who are involved are generally related to one of the members. i mean you dont agree with good values, fine to each their own, but dont say we are bad with zero proof. and i dont know if you look in the top left of your screen often but it does say "fighting ignorance since 1973" and if you still believe that we are bad, you are taking a step in the wrong direction to fight ignorance. :smack:

Bryan Ekers
07-12-2014, 04:37 AM
By now, Cartooniverse's nephew should be old enough to get drunk and ask what the deal was, yo.

In any case, 'toony needed to chill the fuck out then, though I guess he's probably done so by now, a bit.

andros
07-12-2014, 10:27 AM
how to honor womanhood

Has something to do with spelling out the alphabet, as I understand.

Bill Door
07-13-2014, 06:04 PM
In all honesty, the food at the 45th annual North Carolina Shriner's fish fry last fall was was not up to par. I don't know if that qualifies as a bad experience with the Freemasons, but that's what happened to me. Still, it's for the hospitals, so I'll probably buy some plates this year as well.

GreenBanana
01-25-2015, 05:50 PM
Im the current Master Counsel of the Order of Demolay Mohila chapter, I'm 16 years old and I just want to say that whatever happened to your child, was his idea. Let me explain: In Demolay WE the chapter members choose what we want to do. And we set about doing it, via adult advisers and stuff. I cant say much because of my oath of secrecy, however I just want you to know that I highly doubt that anything horrible or wrong happened to your child, and that he is simple honoring his oath. In my current chapter we have 6 12 year olds, all of which are happy and safe. Finally, you realize that had you been involved in demolay along with your son, you could easily know what is happening. My step father, and mother are both involved with demolay and know exactly what happens

Cartooniverse
01-25-2015, 07:53 PM
It was my nephew not my son.

Insisting that nothing bad ever happens in these situations is best and most accurately answered with two words:

Jerry Sandusky.

Great Antibob
01-25-2015, 09:34 PM
In any case, 'toony needed to chill the fuck out then, though I guess he's probably done so by now, a bit.

Considering the "actors kissing minors on screen is statutory rape" and "Germans are all neo-Nazi bastards" threads, your optimism is...endearing.

BubbaDog
01-26-2015, 09:17 AM
It was my nephew not my son.

Insisting that nothing bad ever happens in these situations is best and most accurately answered with two words:

Jerry Sandusky.

As well as implying something is happening can also be answered in two words:

Fucking Idiot

cochrane
01-26-2015, 09:31 PM
Can somebody please find a grip for 'Tooney to get ahold of? He's been waiting for one for ten fucking years now.

Sitnam
01-26-2015, 11:33 PM
I am now convinced that whatever happens in DeMolay it isn't English grammar lessons.

Really Not All That Bright
01-27-2015, 09:44 AM
How do young men "honor womanhood", exactly? Sex change operations?

purplehorseshoe
01-27-2015, 10:13 AM
See post # 97 ("alphabet, the") for one suggestion.

Drunky Smurf
01-27-2015, 02:00 PM
How do young men "honor womanhood", exactly? Sex change operations?

No donkey punches.

BrainGlutton
01-27-2015, 07:14 PM
How do young men "honor womanhood", exactly? Sex change operations?

I had a thin-walled hotel room next to a newlywed couple once. The bride said, "Sir, I offer you my honor!" The groom said, "Madam, I honor your offer!" And that was pretty much how it went all night -- honor, offer, honor, offer . . .

BrainGlutton
01-27-2015, 07:18 PM
Forget all those "expose" books -- this (https://youtube.com/watch?v=q4fXllxQa1Y) is what really happens in Masonic rituals.

andros
01-27-2015, 10:16 PM
That is one of the most amazing 'toons ever made. I heart it sooo much...even more than Minnie the Moocher. But just barely.

kayT
01-27-2015, 10:51 PM
OMG, BrainGlutton, thanks for giving me bad dreams. What an amazing cartoon! Wow! I am glad to have seen this; hard to believe it was made in 1931.

Gatopescado
01-28-2015, 11:36 AM
This thread has more lives than Cat Jesus.

Calatin
01-28-2015, 12:38 PM
This thread has more lives than Cat Jesus.

Would that be 10 or 18?

LordBus22
10-18-2015, 11:28 PM
Alright, I am the state leader of DeMolay in Vermont right now and this weekend get-away that has been spoken of is called Conclave. Conclave is one weekend in the year when DeMolays go away and promote their new officers along with other activities that vary by state, many that I have attended do a lot of sport activities, some make it a teaching thing where they will have classes and such and others may do whatever else imaginable as the DeMolays do choose what they do. I can promise anyone that given DeMolay has any history with mistreatment for the children it would be slim compared to, lets say the Catholic Church, because our dad advisers have a very intense screening program to go through before being accepted as advisers.

Green Bean
10-18-2015, 11:56 PM
This thread has more lives than Cat Jesus.

Quoted for truth. Not that I mind - it's a truly enjoyable trainwreck.

Almost as good as the one where 'Toonsie was worried about being exterminated by Nazis while eating a schnitzel in Frankfurt last year.

kaylasdad99
10-19-2015, 11:09 PM
Not a Mason of any variety here, but if I were, I'd consider making reading this thread and posting an appropriate response an initiation activity.

blue infinity
10-20-2015, 02:12 AM
I can promise anyone that given DeMolay has any history with mistreatment for the children it would be slim compared to, lets say the Catholic Church, because our dad advisers have a very intense screening program to go through before being accepted as advisers.

So you 'dad adviser' screening program is more intense than the Bachelor's degree and three or four years of Seminary that's required for entry into the Catholic priesthood.

M'kay.

Melbourne
10-20-2015, 05:45 AM
I can promise anyone that given DeMolay has any history with mistreatment for the children it would be slim compared to, lets say the Catholic Church, because our dad advisers have a very intense screening program to go through before being accepted as advisers.


O that's good. That's very good indead. New poster, first post, and I'm caught, caught like a rabbit in a trap or a deer in the headlights! My mind is saying no, but my heart is saying I want LordBus22 to be a real person

Zakalwe
10-20-2015, 07:24 AM
So you 'dad adviser' screening program is more intense than the Bachelor's degree and three or four years of Seminary that's required for entry into the Catholic priesthood.

M'kay.I don't know about his 'dad adviser' program, but at what point during your Bachelor's Degree pursuit were they screening you for possible child abuse tendencies? If they weren't, then those don't count. Honest question about seminary, was that sort of screening traditionally part of seminary? If not, I'll bet they're working on it now.

Hard work to get a job and being screened for a specific potential to commit a certain kind of abuse are NOT the same thing.

WeatherSoul
01-29-2016, 10:42 AM
Please keep in mind while reading this post that I was once young and naive. Now I'm old ;-) and not so naive, but I find that I believe many of the things I did in my youth. In the following, I make statements that make me sound more virtuous than I am. I merely recount my experiences and thoughts as they happened at the time.

I was in DeMolay until I turned 21. We had lotsa secret stuff. None of it worth repeating, and none of it anything to be concerned with. The young men I attended DeMolay meetings with were the same ones I went to school and Scouts with. In every venue, there were "secrets".

I thought the principles noble in, well, principle ;-) On one occasion, we were voting on a new member, and he received a black ball (a NO vote). Although the ballots were intended to be secret, the person choosing the black ball decided to explain why. Turned out to be "political", and a re-vote came up with all white balls. Lest you think that we all had some sort of high moral character, on another occasion, we left a DeMolay meeting to go play at a local gaming hall (~1966, rural America, nothing really wrong with the gaming hall). The others dashed ahead of me, and when I arrived, I was still wearing my DeMolay tie. I was quickly accosted by several fellow DeMolays, and told to remove my tie. After all, we didn't want to besmirch the Order! Later, I discussed this with my Dad (a Mason). Without mentioning who said what, I said that I didn't get it...if it were OK to be there, why not wear the tie, and if it were not OK, then why were we there? Look, this was just part of kids growing up and learning to make decisions.

On another occasion, I was at a Scout meeting with these same fellows. We met in a big hall, and we'd spread out as we worked on projects. On one occasion, I wandered up to a small group, and discovered that they were conspiring to do something very un-Scout-like. I asked them how they could say the Scout Oath at each meeting "on their honor", and then behave that way. I was quickly dismissed with comments wondering how I could believe that stuff and how they said the Oath because they wanted to be in Scouts, but they didn't really believe in all the principles. Members of the Order of DeMolay. Still, we were just kids growing up and learning to make decisions. Later, I discussed this with my Dad. Without mentioning who said what, I said that I didn't get it...I understood that when I stood up and gave an oath, I stood by it. He said that oath or no, he expected me to keep my word, and act honorably at all times. He did say that I'd need to figure out what that meant as I grew up. I will say that I learned stuff in Scouting //from my peers// that was prolly not what my Mom wished for, but never a trace of inappropriate behaviour from adults in Scouting or DeMolay. In fact, I still have the deepest respect and fondness for the men who supervised those activities, and I understand what it means to say such things on an adult level.

Secret stuff: Here is where I tell all ;-)
When my oldest daughter X was 13 or so, a bunch of kids in our social circle put together a monthly meeting-of-the-minds, so to speak. Was supposed to be a place for them (boys and girls) to gather in a safe social environment. After the first meeting, I asked X how the meeting went and what was discussed. All went well until she got to discussing birth control. I was stunned. Mind you, we educated our kids about sex (as far as they needed at each age), so that they could be aware of what they were going through as they matured, and so that they could make educated decisions as they grew. I was then, and am still, generally opposed to pre-marital sex, for many reasons that I'll not share here now, but that didn't equate to keeping my kids in the dark. I never wanted them to be able to look me in the face and say that they "didn't know".

I asked her what adults were present to guide such an important discussion, and she replied that adults were "not allowed". !!! Not allowed?!? Talk about secret societies! (I'll go anywhere my children go, if circumstances warrant. I've been in my share of women's rest rooms, much to my embarrassment.)

It turned out that most of the youths' parents //agreed// to this "secret" meeting, because they hoped that the older youth would share things with the younger youth that the adults found "uncomfortable" to discuss. What kind of message does that send? Does this encourage bonding twixt parent and child? Does it encourage revealing questionable behaviour to parents?

I attended the next meeting, and saw X get verbally challenged by the others because I was there. She made it clear that in our house children were allowed to express their own ideas, and even to challenge parental decisions, as long as they were respectful. She said (remember, 13) that she was free to express her ideas in the meeting, even if she knew that I disagreed with them, and fear no consequences when she got home. Most of the other youth did not enjoy this freedom and openness.

In 1960, there was not much to vetting any adult who supervised children. I don't think that it had changed much by the mid-1990s, when I began to teach HS. I don't even recall much ado in 2000 when I was volunteering a a local HS, and on a few occasions was the only adult supervision on mixed-gender day trips to the countryside. Now that has changed. The latest process, even for volunteers, is a careful vetting. Nonetheless, I opine, unsavory folks can make it through the process on occasion. If we had a "pervert-detector", life would be so much safer and simpler, like it was when I was a kid.

So there you have it, from an insider. I will say that I don't agree with all the good-old-boy Mason stuff, though if it stays on the high ground it is OK. I've never met a perfect person, even when I looked in the mirror ;-)

I was once denied a job in a large corporation in a large city, which I wanted very much, and for which I was well-qualified (the employer's first choice, I was told), because of the 3 Ms.
Money - I had not mentioned that I was connected to big money in town. I was, but didn't think that a valid approach.
Masons - I had not mentioned that I was connected with Masons in town. I was, but didn't think it appropriate to play that card.
Minority - Ah. Here's the rub. I wasn't one ;-) The company (a large multi-national you'd recognize) had many government contracts, and they were behind on their minority hiring. Soo...you get the picture. I didn't get the job, though I was called foolish for not invoking Money or Masons. To each his own.

WeatheredSoul

Sitnam
01-29-2016, 11:05 AM
Joined just to offer your perspective and advance what little discussion there was here. I dig that. Hope you stick around.

BubbaDog
01-29-2016, 11:07 AM
...........
Secret stuff: Here is where I tell all ;-)
When my oldest daughter X was 13 or so, a bunch of kids in our social circle put together a monthly meeting-of-the-minds, so to speak. Was supposed to be a place for them (boys and girls) to gather in a safe social environment. After the first meeting, I asked X how the meeting went and what was discussed. All went well until she got to discussing birth control. I was stunned. Mind you, we educated our kids about sex (as far as they needed at each age), so that they could be aware of what they were going through as they matured, and so that they could make educated decisions as they grew. I was then, and am still, generally opposed to pre-marital sex, for many reasons that I'll not share here now, but that didn't equate to keeping my kids in the dark. I never wanted them to be able to look me in the face and say that they "didn't know".

I asked her what adults were present to guide such an important discussion, and she replied that adults were "not allowed". !!! Not allowed?!? Talk about secret societies! (I'll go anywhere my children go, if circumstances warrant. I've been in my share of women's rest rooms, much to my embarrassment.)

It turned out that most of the youths' parents //agreed// to this "secret" meeting, because they hoped that the older youth would share things with the younger youth that the adults found "uncomfortable" to discuss. What kind of message does that send? Does this encourage bonding twixt parent and child? Does it encourage revealing questionable behaviour to parents?

I attended the next meeting, and saw X get verbally challenged by the others because I was there. She made it clear that in our house children were allowed to express their own ideas, and even to challenge parental decisions, as long as they were respectful. She said (remember, 13) that she was free to express her ideas in the meeting, even if she knew that I disagreed with them, and fear no consequences when she got home. Most of the other youth did not enjoy this freedom and openness.......

WeatheredSoul

So you barged into a meeting in which you were not invited just so you could impose your adult rules on the rest of the kids? And you teach high school?

You were clearly not invited to this meeting. If you disagreed with the setup so strongly you should have kept your daughter (an most importantly, yourself) away from the meeting.

And what's so fucking free and open about you being the self-appointed chaperon?

Really Not All That Bright
01-29-2016, 11:22 AM
Am I the only one confused about how all the "secret stuff" in the second part of the post has anything to do with DeMolay OES?

BubbaDog
01-29-2016, 12:43 PM
Am I the only one confused about how all the "secret stuff" in the second part of the post has anything to do with DeMolay OES?

I might be wrong but I took it to mean - Secret societies are OK if adults are present. It's letting the kids discuss things among themselves that is evil.

As a former DeMolay member I agree with the first part of that. Now that I'm an adult I look back on the "secrets" as being constructive fraternal bonding tools based on integrity.

The part where he invites himself to his daughter's meeting is kind of sad. I pity his high school students and his own children if he has so little faith in their integrity that he has to monitor their discussions.

Knowed Out
01-29-2016, 02:34 PM
Now I'm curious as to how Nephew (NOT SON) of Cartooniverse turned out.

BubbaDog
01-29-2016, 02:47 PM
Now I'm curious as to how Nephew (NOT SON) of Cartooniverse turned out.

Based on his exposure to DeMolay I'd guess that he emerged unharmed. Based on his exposure to Cartooniverse I guess it's 50/50 that he's all fucked up.

clairobscur
01-30-2016, 12:21 PM
I attended the next meeting, and saw X get verbally challenged by the others because I was there. She made it clear that in our house children were allowed to express their own ideas, and even to challenge parental decisions, as long as they were respectful. She said (remember, 13) that she was free to express her ideas in the meeting[...] Most of the other youth did not enjoy this freedom and openness.


The freedom of not being allowed to speak freely between themselves?

Even *assuming* that you daughter actually felt free to speak her mind in your presence (and it's not like, even if she didn't, she was going to say so in front of you), most probably the other kids weren't particularly at ease with discussing private or embarassing matters in the presence of an adult stranger. So basically you robbed them all of the opportunity of an *actually* free and open exchange, because you thought that somehow you had to know everything your daughter was saying to/hearing from her peers.

If it bothered you so much that your daughter could discuss "sensitive" issues with her friends without you being within earshot, you should have pulled her from the meeting instead of intruding into the private discussions they were having to everybody's (including other parents) satisfaction.

Corruptionkiller
05-02-2016, 09:23 PM
In 2010 F.B.I. busted Shriners Childrens Hospitals with financing and kidnapping enough children to supply over 192 of Freemasons lodges and shrines of all rites for exclusive use by Master Masons to have sex with children. Over 75% of Shriners Donations funded with up to $600,000.00 dollars per hour of your tax money to run the sex ring and massive pedophile parties (bashes). Indiana Brotherhood Shriners headquartered the ring in Indianapolis where F.B.I. investigations discovered over 18,000 felony predator child violators by name and preference. Shriners lost their non profit status which somehow was regained. Only a few judges were incarcerated out of the ten of thousands involved in the ring which composed of literally all the administrative lodges and shrines nationwide. All highest level freemasons who administer rules, membership, charities were involved. Due to the high level of corrupt masonics in all city, state and federal agencies, political, judicial and law enforcement virtually no one in our nations largest child kidnapping, sex slavery and mass murder has seen bars except a couple. This is the integrity of Freemasonry, D.E.A.'s largest drug cartel to boot. This is why our country has been financially raped. It WILL SOON BE THEIR TURN. I am glad to have participated in closing their money launderer HSBC in Mexico as well as their friends in I.N.M. Mexican Immigration in Mexico City in Feb. 2011. This as a result of kidnappings, attempted murder of whistleblowers of Indiana residents in Mexico (myself) whom were attempting to incarcerate Master Masons in Michigan City, Indiana who are prosecutors and judges who are killing clients, multimillionairs and stealing their assets since 1994. I have witnessed Indiana freemason Barry F. McDonnell disyribute drugs to my brother since I was about 15 or so. In the years I was asked to join them and invest in cocaine distribution in Michigan City and Joliet illinois including insider land fraud run by judges in both cities. I watched them commit crimes against clients whom ended up like me...fleeced of millions but tbey ended up dead. Roger Pecen my first witness discovered their plans to steal my inhetitance. He stated he was going to help me stop them, he was dead in two weeks. Since than many many people have died. I started a documentary and lived in a town called Puert Escondido Mexico where friends of present judges and prosecutors is involved in drug smuggling, mass kidnapping for stem cell research that was responsible fir over 3000 kidnappings and deaths of teens and young adults. The same compound held Mexicos largest methamphetamine lab when almost busted in 2007. The investigation started when two teens washed up on a local puerto escondido beach with their skin burnt off above their elbows. Mexico anti narcos state they were mixing meth chemicals with no protection lasting just a few months. The facility employed Michigan City resident by the name of Kelley a known friend od present judges, prosecutors. The facility closed temporarily after being busted and then a large payoff to silence agents. I was their in puerto and knew contacts that informed me one hour after the gunships returned, they used my home as waypoint. The facility was reopened and the discovery of their employer became evident in court proceedings by these prosecutors associates, residents of michigan city, indiana in Puerto Escondido working in this facility doing mass kidnapping were investigated by SEIDO, MEXICO ATTY GENERAL, US STATE DEP, US MARSHALLS MADE ARRESTS, EXTRADITIONS. FBI in the U.S. blocked all investigation and due process to protect the massive, countrys largest drug cartel...freemasonry. Ohhh and why did all these crimes go without due process just like 18,000 hignest level master masons in our country, all pedophiles? The company hiring these criminals whom Mexican Immigration allowed to commit crimes against humanity for freemasons in Indiana and abroad.....
The company in court records Zapata Corporation, soon changed to Harbinger Group. Its founder.. George Herbert Walker Bush. I have the proof but FBI and all agencies in Indiana protect freemasons which would have met with the electric chair inMichigan City, Indiana.. They continue without hinder in mass murder and child slavery en masse as we speak. Read "The Franklin Conspiracy"

running coach
05-02-2016, 09:45 PM
You're a loony.

splatterpunk
05-02-2016, 09:51 PM
...Read "The Franklin Conspiracy"

Nope.

Miller
05-02-2016, 09:57 PM
This is one of those threads that's just never going to stop giving.

Czarcasm
05-02-2016, 10:00 PM
I vote this Best Thread Revival EVAR!!

joyfool
05-02-2016, 10:06 PM
They done stole his paragraph breaks too! Run 'em out on a rail, brother.

tomndebb
05-02-2016, 10:11 PM
I thought that perhaps this was the latest salvo of insanity from Franklin Graham.
It turns out that it is older than that--although accusing the Shriners is a new twist:
Franklin child prostitution ring allegations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_child_prostitution_ring_allegations)Historian Philip Jenkins explored how hot topics such as the Franklin allegations, whether or not they are worthy of attention or credible on their own merits, are seized by political opportunists for their own purposes. He also described how cases such as the Franklin allegations can acquire credibility, even if they lack any credibility inherently, when reported in various media in a credulous voice. Numerous conspiracy theories evolved and persist, claiming that the alleged abuse was part of a widespread series of crimes including devil worship, cannibalism, drug trafficking, CIA arms dealing and links with the first Bush Administration

dropzone
05-02-2016, 10:42 PM
Am I the only one confused about how all the "secret stuff" in the second part of the post has anything to do with DeMolay OES?I'm confused by the claims of institutional, by the rules, secrets in the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts that kids would be privy to. I was a member of both for a long time as a child and I can recall nothing particularly secretive.

As for Corruptionkiller, can we keep him? We'll feed him and brush him and take him for walks whenever he wants to go outside.

Or has he already run off?

Zakalwe
05-02-2016, 10:50 PM
Wow. My Lodge could barely run a fish-fry fund-raiser, apparently we should have been taking lessons from the Indiana Masons. Those mo-fos are ORGANIZED.

running coach
05-02-2016, 10:51 PM
As for Corruptionkiller, can we keep him? We'll feed him and brush him and take him for walks whenever he wants to go outside.

Or has he already run off?

Of course he has. These clowns never stay.

Slow Moving Vehicle
05-03-2016, 09:16 AM
Of course he has. These clowns never stay.

After all, they have to visit all corners to the interwebz, to spread the TRUTH!

Nava
05-03-2016, 09:36 AM
As for Corruptionkiller, can we keep him? We'll feed him and brush him and take him for walks whenever he wants to go outside.

Or has he already run off?

Do lizards need to be brushed?

davidm
05-03-2016, 09:41 AM
How is it that I've never seen this thread before now? I need to warn people about DeMolay! :p

Boyo Jim
05-03-2016, 09:42 AM
Numerous conspiracy theories evolved and persist, claiming that the alleged abuse was part of a widespread series of crimes including devil worship, cannibalism, ...

I am trying to figure out how to combine child sexual abuse with cannibalism. I guess it all depends on which parts you eat.

Boyo Jim
05-03-2016, 09:43 AM
Rebecca DeMolay is a smoking hot actress. Surely she wouldn't be involved in anything untoward!

digs
05-03-2016, 10:58 AM
I'm confused by the claims of institutional, by the rules, secrets in the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts that kids would be privy to...

Oh, man, nobody told me any secrets...

Probably knew I'd blab to the first reporter who offered me a Charleston Chew for my exposé.

RickJay
05-03-2016, 12:20 PM
If there was anything at all interesting about Masonic rituals, it wouldn't be a secret anymore because there'd be fifty bazillion Web sources explaining them in the most minute detail.

Shodan
05-03-2016, 12:21 PM
In 2010 F.B.I. busted Shriners Childrens Hospitals with financing and kidnapping enough children to supply over 192 of Freemasons lodges and shrines of all rites for exclusive use by Master Masons to have sex with children. Over 75% of Shriners Donations funded with up to $600,000.00 dollars per hour of your tax money to run the sex ring and massive pedophile parties (bashes). Indiana Brotherhood Shriners headquartered the ring in Indianapolis where F.B.I. investigations discovered over 18,000 felony predator child violators by name and preference. Shriners lost their non profit status which somehow was regained. Only a few judges were incarcerated out of the ten of thousands involved in the ring which composed of literally all the administrative lodges and shrines nationwide. All highest level freemasons who administer rules, membership, charities were involved. Due to the high level of corrupt masonics in all city, state and federal agencies, political, judicial and law enforcement virtually no one in our nations largest child kidnapping, sex slavery and mass murder has seen bars except a couple. This is the integrity of Freemasonry, D.E.A.'s largest drug cartel to boot. This is why our country has been financially raped. It WILL SOON BE THEIR TURN. I am glad to have participated in closing their money launderer HSBC in Mexico as well as their friends in I.N.M. Mexican Immigration in Mexico City in Feb. 2011. This as a result of kidnappings, attempted murder of whistleblowers of Indiana residents in Mexico (myself) whom were attempting to incarcerate Master Masons in Michigan City, Indiana who are prosecutors and judges who are killing clients, multimillionairs and stealing their assets since 1994. I have witnessed Indiana freemason Barry F. McDonnell disyribute drugs to my brother since I was about 15 or so. In the years I was asked to join them and invest in cocaine distribution in Michigan City and Joliet illinois including insider land fraud run by judges in both cities. I watched them commit crimes against clients whom ended up like me...fleeced of millions but tbey ended up dead. Roger Pecen my first witness discovered their plans to steal my inhetitance. He stated he was going to help me stop them, he was dead in two weeks. Since than many many people have died. I started a documentary and lived in a town called Puert Escondido Mexico where friends of present judges and prosecutors is involved in drug smuggling, mass kidnapping for stem cell research that was responsible fir over 3000 kidnappings and deaths of teens and young adults. The same compound held Mexicos largest methamphetamine lab when almost busted in 2007. The investigation started when two teens washed up on a local puerto escondido beach with their skin burnt off above their elbows. Mexico anti narcos state they were mixing meth chemicals with no protection lasting just a few months. The facility employed Michigan City resident by the name of Kelley a known friend od present judges, prosecutors. The facility closed temporarily after being busted and then a large payoff to silence agents. I was their in puerto and knew contacts that informed me one hour after the gunships returned, they used my home as waypoint. The facility was reopened and the discovery of their employer became evident in court proceedings by these prosecutors associates, residents of michigan city, indiana in Puerto Escondido working in this facility doing mass kidnapping were investigated by SEIDO, MEXICO ATTY GENERAL, US STATE DEP, US MARSHALLS MADE ARRESTS, EXTRADITIONS. FBI in the U.S. blocked all investigation and due process to protect the massive, countrys largest drug cartel...freemasonry. Ohhh and why did all these crimes go without due process just like 18,000 hignest level master masons in our country, all pedophiles? The company hiring these criminals whom Mexican Immigration allowed to commit crimes against humanity for freemasons in Indiana and abroad.....
The company in court records Zapata Corporation, soon changed to Harbinger Group. Its founder.. George Herbert Walker Bush. I have the proof but FBI and all agencies in Indiana protect freemasons which would have met with the electric chair inMichigan City, Indiana.. They continue without hinder in mass murder and child slavery en masse as we speak. Read "The Franklin Conspiracy"Well, I guess we now know how Cartooniverse's nephew turned out.

Regards,
Shodan

madsircool
05-03-2016, 02:31 PM
Rebecca DeMolay is a smoking hot actress. Surely she wouldn't be involved in anything untoward!
But her father might. .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wally_George

digs
05-03-2016, 07:26 PM
Well, I guess we now know how Cartooniverse's nephew turned out.

Regards,
Shodan

Of course! Why didn't anyone else connect the dots here? Well, played, Regardsy.

watchwolf49
05-04-2016, 05:25 PM
"Zombies are slow, always attacking last. but always doing 1-8 hit points of damage when they hit. They always fight until destroyed and nothing short of a cleric can turn them back" -- Monster Manual 1st Edition

andros
05-04-2016, 08:09 PM
...I feel like you could have saved that for a better thread.

watchwolf49
05-04-2016, 09:23 PM
...I feel like you could have saved that for a better thread.

I guess it depends on which part of me you're trying to feel ... and why you like it.

JeffB
05-04-2016, 11:20 PM
Wow. My Lodge could barely run a fish-fry fund-raiser, apparently we should have been taking lessons from the Indiana Masons. Those mo-fos are ORGANIZED.
I hate Indiana Masons.

Ike Witt
05-04-2016, 11:41 PM
That post was only missing something about MJ-12 and aliens, otherwise that was as close to perfect as we can see here.

cochrane
05-05-2016, 12:15 AM
They done stole his paragraph breaks too! Run 'em out on a rail, brother.

Paragraph breaks? We don't need no stinkin' paragraph breaks!

Johnny Bravo
05-05-2016, 04:04 PM
Well, I guess we now know how Cartooniverse's nephew turned out.


Holy shit.

/thread, sir, /thread indeed.

tomndebb
05-05-2016, 10:12 PM
I hate Indiana Masons.So, you import all you bricklayers from Illinois?

Personal
05-06-2016, 12:40 AM
I hate Indiana Masons.
Any particular reason(s)?

kaylasdad99
05-06-2016, 04:23 AM
I'm confused by the claims of institutional, by the rules, secrets in the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts that kids would be privy to. I was a member of both for a long time as a child and I can recall nothing particularly secretive.

As for Corruptionkiller, can we keep him? We'll feed him and brush him and take him for walks whenever he wants to go outside.

Oh, no! I've heard that line before! Like the time you brought home that short order cook. He had me up half the night, making toast, until the freezer was FULL!

I'm STILL making toast soup!

ComplainJane
05-28-2016, 07:49 AM
About 10 years ago, I was introduced to a couple (at their home) where the husband was a DeMolay member. I forgot all about this until I just saw something pop up online about the group and remembered the creepy experience I had.

Anyway, I was a guest at this couple's house; a mutual friend of ours brought me there for a barbecue. I remember there were some young boys at the house, and I was told that they were all in "DeMolay". And that the husband was a leader or something. And the whole thing struck me as weird. And then at one point, the husband complimented his wife on the burgers she grilled. Her response was that he should come home once in a while, and he could have them more often, instead of spending all his time "away" with "the boys".

The young boys didn't participate in the barbecue. They just seemed to be all over the house hanging out. And I was told that the husband's constantly doing things with these kids, and never home. And when he is home, he brings some of the boys with him.

I don't know. Maybe nothing was going on. But I got a weird vibe about the whole thing.

Creedencecretin
02-24-2017, 02:09 PM
Of all the things that could have been mentioned, from Ted Gunderson to Operation Gladio, conspiracy of silence, Pizza Gate ect ect ect. All these points that could be used to further the thread. Here we now are talking about boys at the BBQ and all we are left with is months on end of silence. Even more questionable is the tone of your experience. Im not sure what it is, i can't quite put my finger on it but something about it just seems to lack authenticity. :(

I feel in a thred like this, if we really want to gain some insight into the perilous world cartoonivers and his nephew Corruptionkiller are placing us, we need more empathy and less creativity. Furthermore, I feel that if you were born a man, the motivations of man or men should not be hard to see. And there are less men engaged in austerity than hedonism. Thus the motivations of man tend to move towards the one extreme as opposed to the other. Nothing is out of the realm of possibility.

Shodan
02-24-2017, 02:25 PM
Well okay then.

Regards,
Shodan

Czarcasm
02-24-2017, 02:57 PM
Well okay then.

Regards,
ShodanI am in complete agreement with you.

Really Not All That Bright
02-24-2017, 03:13 PM
I agree with Shodan.

running coach
02-24-2017, 03:19 PM
Well okay then.

Regards,
Shodan

I am in complete agreement with you.

I agree with Shodan.

QFT.

Shodan
02-24-2017, 03:37 PM
Apparently a zombie thread has to get bumped every three or four years to get anyone to agree with me. :)

Regards,
Shodan

Czarcasm
02-24-2017, 03:40 PM
Apparently a zombie thread has to get bumped every three or four years to get anyone to agree with me. :)

Regards,
ShodanOnce again, I am in complete agreement with you.

:D

Ukulele Ike
02-24-2017, 03:47 PM
The Freemasons in New York City are SO DESPERATE for young members (under eighty) that they have even asked my wife if I would be interested.

Shodan
02-24-2017, 03:49 PM
Once again, I am in complete agreement with you.

:DBoy, did I set myself up that time...

Regards,
Shodan

Ukulele Ike
02-24-2017, 04:21 PM
Hey, Shodan, let's join the Freemasons together! Think of the fraternal brotherhood TEAM we'd make! Think Crosby and Hope, Burke and Hare, Leopold and Loeb, Sacco and Vanzetti, Arsenic and Old Lace...

Euphonious Polemic
02-24-2017, 04:24 PM
We here at General widgets think we know that it is better to evolve transparently than to benchmark strategically. We think that most distributed web-based applications use far too much XForms, and not enough XMLHttpRequest. Without user communities, you will lack social networks. The ultra-1000/60/60/24/7/365 project management factor can be summed up in one word: six-sigma, 24/7/365. If you generate iteravely, you may have to monetize magnetically. What do we facilitate? Anything and everything, regardless of namelessness! We will engineer the power of schemas to harness. Think bricks-and-clicks. Think cutting-edge. Think integrated. But don't think all three at the same time. The versioning factor can be summed up in one word: scalable. We think we know that it is better to empower transparently than to morph ultra-strategically. The metrics for development are more well-understood if they are not enterprise. Our visionary feature set is unparalleled in the industry, but our virtual e-services and user-proof operation is always considered a remarkable achievement.

Think collaborative. Think collaborative. Think sexy. But don't think all three at the same time.
At General widgets, we realize how to disintermediate micro-interactively. If you generate intra-micro-compellingly, you may have to syndicate cyber-seamlessly. We will benchmark the jargon-based term "frictionless, back-end". We pride ourselves not only on our resource-constrained feature set, but our easy administration and user-proof configuration. We always facilitate frictionless, fractal all-hands meetings. That is a terrific achievement taking into account the current and previous fiscal year's financial state of things! Do you have a plan of action to become enterprise, dot-com? Imagine a combination of XForms and AJAX. The implementation factor is killer. Quick: do you have a affiliate-based, world-class plan of action for monitoring unplanned-for e-markets? The metrics for implementation supervising are more well-understood if they are not global. The metrics for methodologies are more well-understood if they are not plug-and-play. What does the industry jargon "granular, back-end research and development" really mean?

digs
02-24-2017, 05:55 PM
...more well-understood if they are not plug-and-play. What does the industry jargon "granular, back-end research and development" really mean?

I'm "regards"-ing this.

Corruptionkiller
03-06-2017, 12:49 AM
Over in This MPSIMS thread (http://boards.academicpursuits.us/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6333956), I expressed some concerns regarding the trust and secrecy issues enforced upon minor children of both genders by the Freemasons.

I'll quote back from my post in there to explain my concern:


So, there you have it. I am respecting the wishes of the OP'er, and starting a totally separate thread so that his is not hijacked any more.

Are there any Dopers out there who have had negative or damaging or upsetting dealings with these groups who feel they can share them in the Dope? I would be highly surprised if my nephew is the only 12 year old boy ever told he's not allowed to tell anyone what he does when he goes away with adult men for the weekend. Not his Mom, not his Dad, not his uncle ( me ). Nobody, pretty much. See, it's secret.

Secret. So here's your chance to unburden some of those secrets. My nephew got out, but not easily. To this day he cannot talk about what happened during the years he was involved in DeMolay.

Are there any Dopers out there who can?

Since this is feeling like a poll of sorts, I've posted it into IMHO.

Cartooniverse

Go figure they are now openly soliciting 12 year olds without parent contact. School wants me to prosecute as the solicitation breaks multiple child endangerment laws but POLICE refuse to accept a report. However this was not a valid attempt as they only want to threaten me thru my son and stop trying to turn in the large group of Indiana brotherhood an Joliet prosecutors, judges selling coke and killing clients. How bout McDonnell and their prosecutor group in Michigan city. When brothers go up for murder they accidently get caught eavesdropping on the murder defendent and their attorney to get the case thrown out. Of course this happened twice in less than six months. Two murderers walk and no one reprimands the prosecutors...hahhh. How bout the son of the same murdering group who while demolay hung his friend to death at 16 years old!!!! His daddy now an a judge was the prosecutor in his own sons murder case. His son now an attorney at Winston Strawn. Big fat liability out their.... knowingly having an attorney that was openly allowed an illegal trial, and now an attorney. Ambition early in the ranks of pedophile murderers. Michigan City Indiana. Wanna know the murdered kids name? OR HOW BOUT THE MURDERER ATTORNEY...WINSTON STRAWN IS AWARE AS I INFORMED THEM, ITS DOCUMENTED. So guys give me my illions back and I will leave you all alone to your killing of LaSalle Street attorney Donald Hamrin and many other. Too bad the state dept, dhs and other agencies are refused cooporation by F.B.I. or I may have successfully pulled of about 6 hot seat electric chair cantidates on the West side of Michigan City. So just dropping numbers in the FBI shriners discovery of 18,000 plus identified highest lever Freemasons named by name and preference. ..... so we are talking 36,000 minimum child rapes that still need investigating.... and probably 99% of victims dissappeared. Going for RICO act, new players in game, law enforcement in revolution of criminal pedophile drug cartel and honestly moral people whom are targets for the immoral elite ho collect 500 million for charity and pocket 450 million plus to run their sex slavery network. Its o.k. someone can give more accurate numbers. All said and done Shriners use 75% of their donation for the nationwide..worldwide child sex slavery expressly for their own use. But thats not me folks, its right out of court documents. NEVER EVER HEARD ONE FREEMASON APOLOGIZE... as it is still going strong. Bareback child killers

Monty
03-06-2017, 12:55 AM
I lost my Insane Gibberish Wall of Text --> Comprehensible English dictionary. Anyone with access to theirs want to take a stab at parsing Post #171?

running coach
03-06-2017, 01:11 AM
I'm confused by the claims of institutional, by the rules, secrets in the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts that kids would be privy to. I was a member of both for a long time as a child and I can recall nothing particularly secretive.

As for Corruptionkiller, can we keep him? We'll feed him and brush him and take him for walks whenever he wants to go outside.

Or has he already run off?

Of course he has. These clowns never stay.

Shit. He found his way back.

I lost my Insane Gibberish Wall of Text --> Comprehensible English dictionary. Anyone with access to theirs want to take a stab at parsing Post #171?

I tried. You owe me a Kindle.

Czarcasm
03-06-2017, 07:46 AM
"Bareback child killers"-Killing children without wearing condoms?
Killing children who refuse to wear condoms?

Johnny Bravo
03-06-2017, 08:13 AM
THE MURDERER ATTORNEY

Wasn't that a John Grisham novel?

QuickSilver
03-06-2017, 08:15 AM
Go figure they are now openly soliciting 12 year olds without parent contact. School wants me to prosecute as the solicitation breaks multiple child endangerment laws but POLICE refuse to accept a report. However this was not a valid attempt as they only want to threaten me thru my son and stop trying to turn in the large group of Indiana brotherhood an Joliet prosecutors, judges selling coke and killing clients. How bout McDonnell and their prosecutor group in Michigan city. When brothers go up for murder they accidently get caught eavesdropping on the murder defendent and their attorney to get the case thrown out. Of course this happened twice in less than six months. Two murderers walk and no one reprimands the prosecutors...hahhh. How bout the son of the same murdering group who while demolay hung his friend to death at 16 years old!!!! His daddy now an a judge was the prosecutor in his own sons murder case. His son now an attorney at Winston Strawn. Big fat liability out their.... knowingly having an attorney that was openly allowed an illegal trial, and now an attorney. Ambition early in the ranks of pedophile murderers. Michigan City Indiana. Wanna know the murdered kids name? OR HOW BOUT THE MURDERER ATTORNEY...WINSTON STRAWN IS AWARE AS I INFORMED THEM, ITS DOCUMENTED. So guys give me my illions back and I will leave you all alone to your killing of LaSalle Street attorney Donald Hamrin and many other. Too bad the state dept, dhs and other agencies are refused cooporation by F.B.I. or I may have successfully pulled of about 6 hot seat electric chair cantidates on the West side of Michigan City. So just dropping numbers in the FBI shriners discovery of 18,000 plus identified highest lever Freemasons named by name and preference. ..... so we are talking 36,000 minimum child rapes that still need investigating.... and probably 99% of victims dissappeared. Going for RICO act, new players in game, law enforcement in revolution of criminal pedophile drug cartel and honestly moral people whom are targets for the immoral elite ho collect 500 million for charity and pocket 450 million plus to run their sex slavery network. Its o.k. someone can give more accurate numbers. All said and done Shriners use 75% of their donation for the nationwide..worldwide child sex slavery expressly for their own use. But thats not me folks, its right out of court documents. NEVER EVER HEARD ONE FREEMASON APOLOGIZE... as it is still going strong. Bareback child killers

Are you off your meds?

BubbaDog
03-06-2017, 10:00 AM
Are you off your meds?

I've heard stories about dropping acid and then fucking a cactus but never seen a real life application of that until Corruptionkiller.

Really Not All That Bright
03-06-2017, 10:07 AM
I lost my Insane Gibberish Wall of Text --> Comprehensible English dictionary. Anyone with access to theirs want to take a stab at parsing Post #171?
That's Shodan's job.

Shodan
03-06-2017, 11:06 AM
Quicksilver ninja'ed me.

Regards,
Shodan

Lasciel
03-06-2017, 11:09 AM
Oh look, he came back again! It's like the Pit that keeps on giving.

davidm
03-06-2017, 11:13 AM
NM

Cartooniverse
03-06-2017, 01:28 PM
Someone's poaching my gig.

Battle Pope
03-06-2017, 03:07 PM
"Bareback child killers"-Killing children without wearing condoms?
Killing children who refuse to wear condoms?

Fanfic has taken the Brokeback sequel to some dark places.

The King of Soup
03-06-2017, 06:02 PM
A half-hour after carefully reading Corruptionkiller's post, I found myself at The Nature Store with a shopping cart full of Dr. Bronner's Castile Soap.

dropzone
03-06-2017, 08:56 PM
Shit. He found his way back.
This thread is old and I may've mentioned her, EMPHASIS HER, but I had a boss who tried to lure me into the Masons.

"Are you attempting to take over the world?"

"No."

"So what do you have for me, that hot Israeli girl in your department?"

"No."

"Sorry, you've mistaken me for my Scottish Rite grandfather."

Budget Player Cadet
03-07-2017, 02:14 AM
A half-hour after carefully reading Corruptionkiller's post, I found myself at The Nature Store with a shopping cart full of Dr. Bronner's Castile Soap.

For washing or drinking?

Miller
03-07-2017, 02:28 AM
Wasn't that a John Grisham novel?

Wasn't that all the John Girsham novels?

kambuckta
03-07-2017, 02:51 AM
Wasn't that all the John Girsham novels?

Girsham? I'm not familiar with that writer.....

:rolleyes:

Zakalwe
03-07-2017, 07:20 AM
Girsham? I'm not familiar with that writer.....

:rolleyes:Girsham, the well-known Dutch author. He wrote "The Ferm"and "The Klient". I thought everybody knew him.

Cartooniverse
03-07-2017, 08:48 AM
Not to mention "Der Pelikkn Brïëff. "

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Johnny Bravo
03-07-2017, 08:50 AM
Girsham? I'm not familiar with that writer.....

:rolleyes:

Oh geez. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

I can't believe I introduced misinformation into this thread. So ashamed.

Argybargy
06-07-2017, 12:51 PM
I've seen this thread for a few years...was a link to it for a while on another message board I visited...and finally decided to add my two cents about my experience.

I was a member in the 1980s for about 5ish years. I became a member around 13 or 14, and stayed until I went to university.

So, the more mundane stuff first.

I can't speak to what Masons do, but I can say the ones I met in DeMolay and most of the ones who were involved in our chapter were, uh, the whitest people who ever lived. Wonderbread white. I don't necessarily mean in a Nazi sort of way (though black members were nowhere to be found in our chapters). More like...people for whom Kenny G was a bit too risque.

Eastern Star women, regardless of age, always seemed to be 100 years old, all named Pearl or Opal, all of them looked incredibly sour and dour. There were Rainbow Girls and Job's Daughters. Jobies, as they were often referred to, were 'special' because one's father had to be a Mason in order to join. All that meant is that the "Jobies" often were riskier with their behavior (drinking, drugs, sex) because they knew that essentially, they could not be kicked out. I seem to remember a few of my DeMolay brothers sweating a pregnancy test with a Jobie.

As with all closed organizations, it's who you know and who you....well, yeah, that's gross. But accountability and transparency? Non-existent.

I'm betraying my brotherly promise by revealing a bit about the Demolay rituals here, but I think it's important to explain to provide a wider understanding. There are two, and both are specifically to initiate new members.

One is very similar to what you'd probably go through in a church setting. Inductees walk from station to station and the importance of various stations and duties are very solemnly explained. This is not radical stuff: Love mom and dad, don't do bad stuff, etc etc etc.

The second is a bit more interesting when considering our topic. It is an allegorical play about the man for whom DeMolay is named after, Jacques de Molay. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_de_Molay) I say "interesting" because while there isn't anything truly radical, strange or inappropriate in this ritual, it does drive home the point that one should protect one's brother to the death, if need be....even if it means keeping a secret.

So...my experience....

In general, I had a fair to positive experience. I was a very socially awkward kid, and ended up joining because a friend's father was a Mason, and my friend joined. I didn't have a great time in high school for a number of reasons, one of which was that I'd eventually realize that I was gay, but many of the fellow members were nice enough.
I was a bit of an oddball, but they were surprisingly nice and accepting of various members. I am still in communication with a handful of them today.

We had a few senior members that were really cool, and anything they organized or led seemed to be fun. We had some older "dads" who were not as fun, but for the most part, the people involved were nice and friendly.

Our chapter traveled to other regions several times a year, and there would be large conferences in which the rituals I mentioned above were performed for a panel of judges. We won that competition several times, and as a result we started to travel to other states and neighboring chapters more often.

One of those trips was to a chapter outside of DC, and that was the first time I'd heard about anything sexual. I heard about a few members fooling with each other.

One of the "dads" of the other chapter referred to it as "boys will be boys" and kind of winked, and something about that weirded me out...even though I knew at that time I was gay. It was more of a, something does not compute here, kind of moment, that this adult man would say that.

I found out a few years later that the "winking" dad, and another one in that chapter - were actively seeking out DeMolay members for sex.

I thought it was just that chapter, but in years since, I've heard new revelations every so often about others, including the head of our own chapter. He always skeeved me out, but I assumed it was because he looked like a giant chipmunk.

I will acknowledge here that the incidents I mention above have all been relayed to be second hand. But these are pretty reliable sources, in my eyes.

I've really struggled with this, because I respected some of these men a great deal. And there was a "boys will be boys" element. There was definitely a "don't tell anyone" element, this is our secret, etc.

This all happened in a pretty blue collar, conservative area where you just didn't question authority, or institutions, at least not back in the 80s. Just a few years ago, the same area had a huge revelation about hundreds of boys who were molested by Catholic priests. It was horrible, but in a way, not shocking. It was in some ways a closed society, and our rituals made for a second layer of closedness.

It makes me terribly uneasy to remember my time as a DeMolay now. I know it had good points, and while I'm uneasy with a lot of what Masonry stands for as an adult - that sort of worship of sameness and assigning of arbitrary class distinctions - I can appreciate the good the organization does. But there were rotten apples around us, for sure, and we were just one little corner of the world.

Shodan
06-07-2017, 03:21 PM
Welcome to the SDMB, Argybargy.

I am afraid I didn't read your message closely enough. All I could glean is that Demolay rituals involve sex with a giant chipmunk. This will prepare you for your experience on the SDMB, except it's a squid. So you will fit right in.

Regards,
Shodan

davidm
06-07-2017, 04:17 PM
Squid? What happened to the goat?

Euphonious Polemic
06-07-2017, 04:20 PM
Squid? What happened to the goat?

Don't ask. Nobody speaks of the goat anymore <finger on side of nose>

Argybargy
06-07-2017, 08:02 PM
All I could glean is that Demolay rituals involve sex with a giant chipmunk.

Ah, that's why we all got rabies shots.

Cartooniverse
06-08-2017, 10:58 AM
I've seen this thread for a few years...was a link to it for a while on another message board I visited...and finally decided to add my two cents about my experience.

I was a member in the 1980s for about 5ish years. I became a member around 13 or 14, and stayed until I went to university.

So, the more mundane stuff first.

I can't speak to what Masons do, but I can say the ones I met in DeMolay and most of the ones who were involved in our chapter were, uh, the whitest people who ever lived. Wonderbread white. I don't necessarily mean in a Nazi sort of way (though black members were nowhere to be found in our chapters). More like...people for whom Kenny G was a bit too risque.

Eastern Star women, regardless of age, always seemed to be 100 years old, all named Pearl or Opal, all of them looked incredibly sour and dour. There were Rainbow Girls and Job's Daughters. Jobies, as they were often referred to, were 'special' because one's father had to be a Mason in order to join. All that meant is that the "Jobies" often were riskier with their behavior (drinking, drugs, sex) because they knew that essentially, they could not be kicked out. I seem to remember a few of my DeMolay brothers sweating a pregnancy test with a Jobie.

As with all closed organizations, it's who you know and who you....well, yeah, that's gross. But accountability and transparency? Non-existent.

I'm betraying my brotherly promise by revealing a bit about the Demolay rituals here, but I think it's important to explain to provide a wider understanding. There are two, and both are specifically to initiate new members.

One is very similar to what you'd probably go through in a church setting. Inductees walk from station to station and the importance of various stations and duties are very solemnly explained. This is not radical stuff: Love mom and dad, don't do bad stuff, etc etc etc.

The second is a bit more interesting when considering our topic. It is an allegorical play about the man for whom DeMolay is named after, Jacques de Molay. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_de_Molay) I say "interesting" because while there isn't anything truly radical, strange or inappropriate in this ritual, it does drive home the point that one should protect one's brother to the death, if need be....even if it means keeping a secret.

So...my experience....

In general, I had a fair to positive experience. I was a very socially awkward kid, and ended up joining because a friend's father was a Mason, and my friend joined. I didn't have a great time in high school for a number of reasons, one of which was that I'd eventually realize that I was gay, but many of the fellow members were nice enough.
I was a bit of an oddball, but they were surprisingly nice and accepting of various members. I am still in communication with a handful of them today.

We had a few senior members that were really cool, and anything they organized or led seemed to be fun. We had some older "dads" who were not as fun, but for the most part, the people involved were nice and friendly.

Our chapter traveled to other regions several times a year, and there would be large conferences in which the rituals I mentioned above were performed for a panel of judges. We won that competition several times, and as a result we started to travel to other states and neighboring chapters more often.

One of those trips was to a chapter outside of DC, and that was the first time I'd heard about anything sexual. I heard about a few members fooling with each other.

One of the "dads" of the other chapter referred to it as "boys will be boys" and kind of winked, and something about that weirded me out...even though I knew at that time I was gay. It was more of a, something does not compute here, kind of moment, that this adult man would say that.

I found out a few years later that the "winking" dad, and another one in that chapter - were actively seeking out DeMolay members for sex.

I thought it was just that chapter, but in years since, I've heard new revelations every so often about others, including the head of our own chapter. He always skeeved me out, but I assumed it was because he looked like a giant chipmunk.

I will acknowledge here that the incidents I mention above have all been relayed to be second hand. But these are pretty reliable sources, in my eyes.

I've really struggled with this, because I respected some of these men a great deal. And there was a "boys will be boys" element. There was definitely a "don't tell anyone" element, this is our secret, etc.

This all happened in a pretty blue collar, conservative area where you just didn't question authority, or institutions, at least not back in the 80s. Just a few years ago, the same area had a huge revelation about hundreds of boys who were molested by Catholic priests. It was horrible, but in a way, not shocking. It was in some ways a closed society, and our rituals made for a second layer of closedness.

It makes me terribly uneasy to remember my time as a DeMolay now. I know it had good points, and while I'm uneasy with a lot of what Masonry stands for as an adult - that sort of worship of sameness and assigning of arbitrary class distinctions - I can appreciate the good the organization does. But there were rotten apples around us, for sure, and we were just one little corner of the world.
I knew it.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Monty
06-08-2017, 11:21 AM
Wow. Talk about selective reading!

Green Bean
06-08-2017, 01:33 PM
I knew it.
Sort of like one swastika scrawled on the railing of an out-of-the-way bridge proved that modern-day Germany is crawling with nazis?

Ukulele Ike
06-08-2017, 01:59 PM
I'm still gonna join the Masons. If it was good enough for Mozart, Jefferson, and FDR...

Cartooniverse
06-08-2017, 03:20 PM
Sort of like one swastika scrawled on the railing of an out-of-the-way bridge proved that modern-day Germany is crawling with nazis?
I knew you'd understand.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Shodan
06-09-2017, 08:52 AM
I knew it.Demolay does all kinds of service projects, but do they call it Demolay the service organization?

Demolay builds character in young men, but do they call it Demolay the character-building organization?

Demolay builds lifelong friendship, but do they call it Demolay the friendship organization?

But you get molested by ONE giant chipmunk...

Regards,
Shodan

Doctor Jackson
06-09-2017, 05:13 PM
He always skeeved me out, but I assumed it was because he looked like a giant chipmunk.

Well, the nuts in his cheeks probably had something to do with it.

Monty
06-09-2017, 07:33 PM
Well, the nuts in his cheeks probably had something to do with it.

Well done!

Argybargy
06-09-2017, 07:54 PM
Hey, be sure to let me know about something that's important to you, so I can be sure to shit all over it, too.

Making a joke is one thing, but completely deconstructing it is bizarre.

Nawth Chucka
06-09-2017, 10:39 PM
Hey, be sure to let me know about something that's important to you, so I can be sure to shit all over it, too.

Making a joke is one thing, but completely deconstructing it is bizarre.

Have you read anything else on this board or only this thread? B/c not only can the SDMB be a jerk-fest w/ extra jerk, but this forum is the BBQ Pit; there is much flaming of introduced topics.

Monty
06-09-2017, 10:47 PM
Have you read anything else on this board or only this thread? B/c not only can the SDMB be a jerk-fest w/ extra jerk, but this forum is the BBQ Pit; there is much flaming of introduced topics.

Not to mention the fun posters have with footwear.

nearwildheaven
06-09-2017, 11:33 PM
I started this thread a while back. Subsequent pictures of the group have not changed WRT this.

http://boards.academicpursuits.us/sdmb/showthread.php?t=791262

TL : DL - A Facebook friend (former co-worker) has a teenage daughter in Rainbow Girls, and ALL of the dozen or so girls in the group, her daughter included, are morbidly obese. :eek: :( I'd say a couple of them top 400 pounds. :eek:

Doctor Jackson
06-12-2017, 10:16 AM
Hey, be sure to let me know about something that's important to you, so I can be sure to shit all over it, too.

Making a joke is one thing, but completely deconstructing it is bizarre.

Does that mean your prior comment about rabies shots was true???

AngelSoft
06-12-2017, 01:44 PM
I started this thread a while back. Subsequent pictures of the group have not changed WRT this.

http://boards.academicpursuits.us/sdmb/showthread.php?t=791262

TL : DL - A Facebook friend (former co-worker) has a teenage daughter in Rainbow Girls, and ALL of the dozen or so girls in the group, her daughter included, are morbidly obese. :eek: :( I'd say a couple of them top 400 pounds. :eek:

I was in Job's Daughters (female DeMolay) and we used to joke about Rainbow Girls being the rejects. You could only be in JD if you had a relative who was a Mason. If you didn't, you got shuffled off to Rainbow lol

Cartooniverse
06-12-2017, 01:57 PM
This comes as no surprise at all.

Pedophiles frequently target those children who are marginalized or socially isolated. It makes it easier to groom them.

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