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Earl Snake-Hips Tucker
09-19-2005, 02:11 PM
What is the difference between a fedora and a homburg?

On the TV program, "The Beverly Hillbillies," what kind of hat did Mr. Drysdale wear, fedora or homburg. (In a few eps, he wore a porkpie, but those were exceptions.)

Does the kind of hat that Uncle Jed wore whenever he was dressed up have a name? I couldn't find a picture of it, but it looked like a bowler, except that it had a flat top, instead of a domed top. Also, the top of the crown had a rounded edge, instead of a stove-pipe-like right angle.

Did the name of the little hat that Granny wore have a name? I did find a picture (http://tvacres.com/images/granny_clampett.jpg) of that?

plnnr
09-19-2005, 02:36 PM
A homburg does not have a snap brim (the brim is not snapped down in the front). It does have a slight crease in the top. A bowler does not (think of a bowler as a homburg with a dome top).

A fedora has a wider brim that is snapped down in front. It can have a single crease in the crown, or a pinch at the front of the crown.

GaryM
09-19-2005, 03:57 PM
Here's a fedora http://delmonicohatter.com/plugins/MivaMerchants/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=a6a9a4b72f6f5b5e68d92ad765d46952&Screen=PROD&Product_Code=IT10&Category_Code=FED

And a HOMBURG http://delmonicohatter.com/plugins/MivaMerchants/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=IT62&Category_Code=

Hey, It's That Guy!
09-19-2005, 04:31 PM
Is there a special name for the fedora with the really narrow brim? I see those more and more nowadays, even at places like Hot Topic, and I have to admit, that's the kind of hat I want. Kind of a jazz musician/rude boy/mod/hipster hat to wear, and seems a bit less formal than your typical 1940s gangster/detective fedora.

Labdad
09-19-2005, 04:39 PM
Is there a special name for the fedora with the really narrow brim? I see those more and more nowadays, even at places like Hot Topic, and I have to admit, that's the kind of hat I want. Kind of a jazz musician/rude boy/mod/hipster hat to wear, and seems a bit less formal than your typical 1940s gangster/detective fedora.

A Pork Pie (http://delmonicohatter.com/plugins/MivaMerchants/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=IT65&Category_Code=), perhaps?

waterj2
09-19-2005, 07:34 PM
Is there a special name for the fedora with the really narrow brim? I see those more and more nowadays, even at places like Hot Topic, and I have to admit, that's the kind of hat I want. Kind of a jazz musician/rude boy/mod/hipster hat to wear, and seems a bit less formal than your typical 1940s gangster/detective fedora.I sometimes see these called porkpies, but that usually refers to the flat topped type, as shown in labdad's link (and which is what I've got for any times I need a hat). Perhaps something along the lines of a trillby (http://delmonicohatter.com/plugins/MivaMerchants/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=IT222&Category_Code=CH) might be closer to what you're looking for.

Vintage 1957
09-19-2005, 07:53 PM
Maybe this is a good time to ask my hat question. Why did the tricorner hat go, & pretty much stay, out of style?

yabob
09-19-2005, 08:29 PM
Maybe this is a good time to ask my hat question. Why did the tricorner hat go, & pretty much stay, out of style?
Possibly because the reason it came into style went out some time before the tricorner hat did? Some sources claim that various forms of cocked hats came into fashion when huge ornate wigs did - fashionable gentlemen wore hats with the brim turned up to show off their fancy powdered wigs. Eventually, hat makers just started making the hats that way.

Vintage 1957
09-19-2005, 09:24 PM
Possibly because the reason it came into style went out some time before the tricorner hat did? Some sources claim that various forms of cocked hats came into fashion when huge ornate wigs did - fashionable gentlemen wore hats with the brim turned up to show off their fancy powdered wigs. Eventually, hat makers just started making the hats that way.

Well, if you're going to resort to logic ..... :)

I guess I'm thinking along the lines of things that came & stayed, or came & went & came back again, simply because people thought they looked good. Cowboy hats never left, granny glasses had a 60s revival, top hats hung on for formal affairs. Whatever the logic behind the creation of these items, it probably no longer applies to the people who use them. Tricorners couldn't even catch on again during the '60s in spite of Paul Revere & The Raiders and a Beatles video. I guess they would tend to collect rain water though.... :)

drewbert
09-19-2005, 09:47 PM
Ok, while we're on the topic of TV hats, what exactly is that thing Goober Pyle wears on his head, and has anyone else in the history of the planet ever worn one?

And if so, why?

Vintage 1957
09-19-2005, 11:53 PM
Ok, while we're on the topic of TV hats, what exactly is that thing Goober Pyle wears on his head, and has anyone else in the history of the planet ever worn one?

And if so, why?

Well, Jughead wore one before Goober & a couple of the Little Rascals had 'em before Jughead. Come to think of it, I seem to remember Huntz Hall wearing something similar in one of the East End/Dead End/Bowery Boys movies.

yabob
09-20-2005, 01:00 AM
Jughead and Goober wore a form of beanie, which was actually sometimes worn by children in the early part of the 20th century:
A beanie is also the name for a skullcap (a tight-fitting, brimless hat) worn by schoolchildren in the early to mid-20th century. The "crown" that Jughead Jones wears in Archie Comics is a form of beanie, as is a cap often worn by Spanky of Our Gang (The Little Rascals). These were also known as "whoopee caps" and "dinks." Since then, the name "beanie" has come almost exclusively to mean a child's hat that has a plastic propeller sticking out of the crown.

Originally, the beanie was a blue-collar working hat, worn by laborers like welders or mechanics who needed to keep their hair back but for whom a brim would be an unnecessary obstruction. Some hat historians believe schoolchildren began wearing skullcaps in imitation of their working-class fathers. The baseball cap evolved from this kind of beanie, with the addition of a brim to block the sun.
From http://nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Beanie

More (it will ask you for a password, and not let you see the images, but if you cancel several times you can read the text):

http://histclo.hispeed.com/style/head/cap/cap-bean.html

Goober's beanie is rather dilapidated. I think we are supposed to infer he's been wearing the damned thing since he was a child.

Hey, It's That Guy!
09-20-2005, 09:16 AM
I sometimes see these called porkpies, but that usually refers to the flat topped type, as shown in labdad's link (and which is what I've got for any times I need a hat). Perhaps something along the lines of a trillby (http://delmonicohatter.com/plugins/MivaMerchants/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=IT222&Category_Code=CH) might be closer to what you're looking for.

That's pretty much it, a trillby! Thank you. I bought a similar hat at Target -- brown plaid for $13 -- but it's a bit tight, and not exactly the style I wanted. And I know pork pies have the flat top. I just wish the weather was cooler where I live, since now that I shave my head, I wouldn't mind wearing a few sharp hats like this.

Earl Snake-Hips Tucker
09-20-2005, 10:26 AM
OK, so Mr. Drysdale apparently wore a homburg most of the time. Also, it looks as though I was wrong about his alternate hat. It looks to have been a trillby instead of a porkpie.

Johnny L.A.
09-20-2005, 10:51 AM
http://mybabyjo.com/hats01.htm has a selection of hats. I bought the Coconut Porkpie, which I wear all the time. I also bought a Black Porkpie (no photo, though they do show a grey one and a brown one), but I haven't had the opportunity to wear it yet. The Stingy Brim Fedoras look half-hipster and half-1940s-newsman.

yabob: There's a black beanie on page 2 of the link. Is that the thing?

Slithy Tove
09-20-2005, 12:11 PM
The Bowler (called a Derby in the US) in either round or flat top crown was worn as a badge of middle-class status (working classes wore billed caps and upper classes wore top hats). Charlie Chaplin and Laurel & Hardy wore them in their costumes to mock the middle class. The Bowler-wearer's lack of individuality was immortalized in the painting of Rene Magritte:

http://gustavus.edu/oncampus/academics/art/magritte.html

(snarky aside: from Magritte's paintings we assume Brussels was filled with souless bean-counters, but we now know that they were actually counting lopped-off Congolese hands)

The high-crown, flat-topped version of the bowler was, for some reason, preferred over the round-topped among the managerial classes of Great Britain, particulary in Manchester. Seeking to appear more capable than the average office worker, but not as one of the top-hat wearing aristocrats who had led the nation into the slaughter of World War One (although that's exactly what he was), Winston Churchill adopted the flat-top bowler for his comeback:

http://24hourmuseum.org.uk/content/images/2004_1145.JPG


As for Goober's beanie: for years kids had been cutting the brims off felt hats and clipping the upturned edges into mock "crowns," but this practice really took off in World War One, when millions of Americans were issued campaign ("Smokey the Bear") hats. These big hats didn't stow handily in backpacks, so they were replaced with overseas "piss-cutter" caps. Thousands of discarded campagin hats became available for modification. Quite the waste, considering that these hats, like all good felt, had been made from fur, not wool.

yabob
09-20-2005, 02:47 PM
http://mybabyjo.com/hats01.htm has a selection of hats. I bought the Coconut Porkpie, which I wear all the time. I also bought a Black Porkpie (no photo, though they do show a grey one and a brown one), but I haven't had the opportunity to wear it yet. The Stingy Brim Fedoras look half-hipster and half-1940s-newsman.

yabob: There's a black beanie on page 2 of the link. Is that the thing?
One form of it - that one isn't cut with the "crown" decoration ala Goober and Jughead, but "beanie" is a very general term. Probably close to what the working class fathers were wearing to keep their hair out of the way, before the kids got ahold of them.

vetbridge
09-20-2005, 03:20 PM
I bought a similar hat at Target -- brown plaid for $13 -- but it's a bit tight, and not exactly the style I wanted.

Get yosef a hatstretcher! Seriously, every hat owner needs ohe.

http://davidmorgan.com/proddetail.html?product_number=1181

Jeff Lichtman
09-22-2005, 03:34 AM
Ok, while we're on the topic of TV hats, what exactly is that thing Goober Pyle wears on his head. . .

Here is an old newspaper ad (http://lileks.com/oldads/30s/4.html) featuring a whoopee cap.

Earl Snake-Hips Tucker
03-12-2006, 05:26 PM
On the subject of whoopee caps, a number of the extras in the "Our Gang" shorts wore them, especially in the last several years of the series.

And in "The Best Years of Our Lives" (1946), one of the kids that Harold Russell fusses at as he puts his hands thru the windo is wearing a whoopee cap.

Miss Purl McKnittington
03-13-2006, 07:31 AM
Probably has something to do with the rise of the Beau Brummel (http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~awoodley/regency/dandy.html) aesthetic as the ideal for men's clothing. (Women did wear tricorns, but then it was as an adoption of male fashion; they didn't start as hats for women.) Anyway, Brummel is the one who popularized the perfectly tailored garment as the epitome of good taste. It was fashionable at the time to have a very vertical line -- like a Classical column. A tricorn widens out the top of the line a lot more than a top hat does. A stovepipe also makes the wearer look much taller than a tricorn does. Brummel, despite his death in 1840 in France from syphillis, started a stranglehold on men's fashion in the 19th century, and quality men's clothing has never really recovered from his influence. In modern times, I would say the tricorn never made a comeback because, unlike the top hat, the initial reaction isn't one of elegance and sophistication. It's one of, "Hey! You look like the Quaker Oats guy!" I'm pretty sure that isn't the effect most people are going for in the daily ensemble. The three-corned hat just in our cultural consciousness as a fashionable item.

Of course, these are all my own vague memories. I'll have to go and look at 200000 Years of Fashion and whatever else the library has later today. I'll also go and look up what Granny's hat would be called, though I'm fairly confident that at that point, it would have just been a hat, maybe a bonnet. There are a couple (http://nndb.com/people/916/000098622/irene-ryan-2-sized.jpg) versions (http://butlerwebs.com/holidays/images/Ryan-Irene-Granny-BevHillBillies.jpg) to choose from. Granny probably would have called it a bonnet.

I could have sworn that I posted to this thread on its first go-around.

Miss Purl McKnittington
03-13-2006, 07:32 AM
And the above was clearly in response to the post below.

Maybe this is a good time to ask my hat question. Why did the tricorner hat go, & pretty much stay, out of style?

BMax
03-13-2006, 08:31 AM
Maybe this is a good time to ask my hat question. Why did the tricorner hat go, & pretty much stay, out of style?
I heard (no cites, just a WAG) that the origin of the tricorn was that as wide-brimmed hats age from wear, their brim goes floppy. The easiset thing to do with the big floppy brim was pin it up in the tricorn shape. Somehow the fashion caught on.

Spectre of Pithecanthropus
03-13-2006, 10:07 AM
As for Goober's beanie: for years kids had been cutting the brims off felt hats and clipping the upturned edges into mock "crowns," but this practice really took off in World War One, when millions of Americans were issued campaign ("Smokey the Bear") hats. These big hats didn't stow handily in backpacks, so they were replaced with overseas "piss-cutter" caps. Thousands of discarded campagin hats became available for modification. Quite the waste, considering that these hats, like all good felt, had been made from fur, not wool.


But did kids carry backbacks way back then? When I was in public school from 1964 through 1975, believe it or not, people just carried their books in their hands. And if you were a guy you had to carry them in one hand, at the hip; if you used both hands and held them facing forward you'd be carrying them like a girl.

Regarding homburgs and fedoras, I get from old movies the impression that fedoras were considered to have a bit more flair than homburgs; the latter were the sort of hats that would be worn by successful but stuffy and dull businessmen. Is this true at all?

Acsenray
03-13-2006, 10:15 AM
Trilbys and fedoras are the same thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_(hat)). The term "trilby" is more commonly used in Britain and the term "fedora" is more commonly used in the United States. Interestingly, both names come from plays in which the hats were worn.

DocCathode
03-13-2006, 12:54 PM
But did kids carry backbacks way back then?

I think that Slithy Toves is referring to GI backpacks. If I understand correctly- Man gets government issue Smokey Bear at boot camp. It's big and takes up too much space when not worn. Either, soldier sent the things home, or they simply gave them back to the supply depot. So either the kids end up with hats free from older brothers, or they could buy the unwanted hats cheaply at surplus stores.

My Own Hat Question

What exactly do you call the hat the Shadow wears?

AskNott
03-13-2006, 01:43 PM
I'm just working from memory, here, but I think the Shadow wore a snapbrim fedora with a very wide brim. They went well with the exaggerated zoot suit in the 40s. This style came back in the 60s as an accessory for pimps, or so the movies told us.

As far as I know, I've met only one pimp in my life. He was a sharp dresser, but nothing like the movie pimps.

Scumpup
03-13-2006, 02:34 PM
What are those caps called that eastern European workers wore back before WWII? Some of the characters in the REM video for "Losing My Religion" wear very similar caps. Most importantly: Where can I get one?

David Simmons
03-13-2006, 04:55 PM
What's this hat (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dwsimm2000/detail?.dir=8cf7&.dnm=8eafscd.jpg&.src=ph) called? I thought it was the garrison cap but I was wrong - again.

I had one but seldom wore it. The overseas, or garrison, cap was much handier. Just stick it in your pocket.

Johnny L.A.
03-13-2006, 05:18 PM
What's this hat (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dwsimm2000/detail?.dir=8cf7&.dnm=8eafscd.jpg&.src=ph) called?
Officer's Peaked Cap?

(AKA '50 Mission Crush'.)

dotchan
03-13-2006, 10:30 PM
What kind of hats do the Mario Brothers (http://yoshi.2yr.net/pics/smw-mario-brothers-w-egg.jpg) wear?

And, furthermore, where can I get a pink one (and red suspenders) so I can cosplay as Luigi in his most awesome color pallete ever (http://img.engadget.com/common/images/8784682823623335.JPG?0.9200307226110574)? :D

Walloon
03-14-2006, 01:40 AM
Re Granny's hat in those photos, a bonnet ties under the chin, while Granny's flat little hat just perches on her head. I think Granny might call her headwear a "goin' to church" hat.

In at least one episode Granny did wear a bonnet when she and the Clampetts were forced to dress up as Dogpatch-type denizens for some television commercial Drysdale got them in.

WotNot
03-14-2006, 03:59 AM
Trilbys and fedoras are the same thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_(hat)). The term "trilby" is more commonly used in Britain and the term "fedora" is more commonly used in the United States. Interestingly, both names come from plays in which the hats were worn.
This is another of those occasions when you can't entirely trust Wikipedia: in the UK only the narrow-brim hat is called a trilby, and the wide-brimmed hat is a fedora they're not seen as interchangeable terms. Thus, from the examples they give of fedora wearers, Indiana Jones wears a fedora, but the Blues Brothers definitely sport the trilby.

Argent Towers
03-14-2006, 06:05 AM
I want to know what this (http://stamprussia.com/2252b.jpg) type of military cap is called. It's a hat which was sometimes worn by soldiers in the Soviet Red Army during the 30s and 40s. It's very weird-looking with a pointy top.

Earl Snake-Hips Tucker
03-14-2006, 07:33 AM
I want to know what this (http://stamprussia.com/2252b.jpg) type of military cap is called. It's a hat which was sometimes worn by soldiers in the Soviet Red Army during the 30s and 40s. It's very weird-looking with a pointy top.

Hey, I have one of those! Bought it off Ebay. Of course, living in the SE USA, there aren't that many days in the winter that I can wear it. (Still don't know what it's called, though.)

And I think Granny's hat might have been a style of "pancake hat."

Fear Itself
03-14-2006, 10:04 AM
And I think Granny's hat might have been a style of "pancake hat."You call that a pancake hat? That's not a pancake hat; this is a pancake hat! (http://syberpunk.com/images/oolong/oolong.jpg)

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