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OpalCat
06-05-2006, 03:41 PM
I'm getting very frustrated with this! I can't figure out how to pop the screen out of my window.

The windows: top window is fixed, bottom window slides up and down in a track. The window latches at the bottom and there are no spring thingies on the sides to snap it into intermediate heights, it just stays wherever you leave it by friction. The frame around the window is such that there is a lip between the window and me, so I'm 99.999% certain that it isn't the kind of window where you can tilt it in toward you to clean (at least I haven't been able to figure out a way).

The screen: is directly below the top window. There is a lip on the outside of the window frame that makes the window opening smaller than the frame of the screen, so it can't be pushed outward by any means I can see. There are two pins at the top, which you pull straight down and then you can wiggle the top of the screen inwards about a half an inch. The problem is that to do this, you have to have the bottom window all the way at the top of the track, but that isn't high enough to give the screen any clearance to lean inward to come out, as it is still blocked by over an inch of the window. I don't see any way to make the bottom come forward, either.

Short of getting a pair of scissors and just destroying the screen, how can I get it out???

A.R. Cane
06-05-2006, 03:55 PM
Pretty hard to diagnos w/o seeing it. Sometimes the lip that holds the screen in is only at the bottom and top, but not on the sides, so that you can lift the screen about a half inch and then tilt it out at the bottom.
Is there a mfg. name and/or model on the frame somewhere? If you had tat you could Google their web site or call a local dealer and ask them. You might also go to a home improvement center and see if you can find similar windows and then see how they work.

OpalCat
06-05-2006, 03:58 PM
You can't lift the screen at all, you can only tilt it forward ever so slightly. Not enough to get any kind of lift though.

OpalCat
06-05-2006, 04:14 PM
The only identifying stuff I can see on the screen is a sticker that says A-X7164...

A.R. Cane
06-05-2006, 04:39 PM
Only thing I can suggest is to visit a Lowe's or Home Depot and see if you can spot something similar.

pmwgreen
06-05-2006, 05:43 PM
Total wild guess, but have you tried sliding it sideways? Sometimes there is a spring on one side that presses the screen into a slot on the other side.

OpalCat
06-05-2006, 06:05 PM
I tried and it doesn't seem to move sideways in either direction.

xizor
06-05-2006, 06:07 PM
I had windows that sounded similare to this once. I had to REMOVE (not just open) the bottom window to remove the screen.

Sal Ammoniac
06-05-2006, 06:09 PM
pmwgreen makes a good suggestion. It might just be a matter of pushing harder -- sometimes on old screens, there's a lot of resistance.

The other thing to look for is if there's anything projecting downward, at the very bottom of the screen. I have some windows where there's a little loop of metal that sticks downward through a hole in the bottom of the track/frame. These loops slide toward each other in the familiar way.

AncientHumanoid
06-05-2006, 06:49 PM
There might also be little nail looking things bare sticking out along one side of the inside of the frame. Easy to overlook as they are usually either the same color as the screen or the tips are broken off. If broken off, warping the screen frame is about the only way to get that out.

That's a pretty old design, tho. Most of today's screens are held in by c-springs pushing against one side of the frame. Top, bottom, left, right doesn't matter. It will usually only be one side. What happens with those is that wind blown dirt packs itself around the frame and the springs. A real good jiggling will help loosen the impacted dirt. Maybe.

At worst, you will have to deform the screen frame to get it out. This doesn't always mean destroying it. Manny times it can be warped back into the proper shape.

Good luck.

AncientHumanoid
06-05-2006, 06:52 PM
...nail looking things bare sticking...



I have no idea what the word BARE is doing there. Please ignore it. It keeps following me around, sticking itself into threads I'm posting in. Fucking little troll is what it is. Fuck off, Bare!

Rhubarb
06-05-2006, 06:55 PM
In addition to what everyone else said, window screens (at least all the ones I know of) are removed outward, never inward because of the problem you have already discovered concerning the lower window being in the way.

If possible, examine the screen from the outside to determine if it is held in a frame on all sides. This will give you some clue as to how it is held in place.

AncientHumanoid
06-05-2006, 07:00 PM
In addition to what everyone else said, window screens (at least all the ones I know of) are removed outward, never inward
.


Sorry, not so. I install windows for a living, (among other things, and for over 10 yrs now) and I see screens installed from inside and out. Even some of our new windows have inside installed screens. As with everything in construction, it just depends, ya know? ;)

crowmanyclouds
06-05-2006, 07:21 PM
...window screens (at least all the ones I know of) are removed outward, never inward...Old school, aluminum tripple track (http://images.lowes.com/general/s/stormwndw_bg_trpltrack2.jpg), storm windows (http://images.lowes.com/general/s/stormwndw_bg_dbltrack2.jpg) are removed from the inside.

CMC fnord!

Kuizelemartz
06-05-2006, 07:44 PM
Find a child, leave them in the room and tell them no matter what, they are not to remove the screen from the window.

A.R. Cane
06-05-2006, 07:48 PM
Find a child, leave them in the room and tell them no matter what, they are not to remove the screen from the window.

ROTFLMAO!! Perfect solution.

OpalCat
06-05-2006, 07:56 PM
I pulled down on the pins and again tried to push it to the left, as there appears to be a space on the left side where there isn't one on the right. The top of the screen shifted left about an inch. The lower right corner came up enough to move freely forward into the room until it hit the window frame. The lower right corner won't budge. After much shaking and pounding and scrubbing dirt with a toothbrush, I got the lower left corner of the screen to shift about 1/4 inch to the *right* (proving it isn't stuck in place) but it will not move to the left at all. Seems like the window should slide that way, but it won't. I even used a hammer on the end of a screwdriver wedged into the corner of the frame to try to move it. I don't see anything protruding from the screen or from the door, from the inside or from the outside. I see no moving parts whatsoever on the screen frame aside from the pins at the top.

AncientHumanoid
06-05-2006, 08:30 PM
If you can pull the top of the screen forward enough, you might be able to slide the bottom up and out by playing with it. Then it's a matter of a spatial game, getting the whole thing out. If not, sorry.


Sometimes, when I'm stuck on something, I just have someone else look at it. Anyone else. (Regardless of the nature of the problem.) Often, they find the one, tiny thing I overlooked and all is well. Of course, I'm speaking of real life, not Doping. I wish I could help more. I know how frustrating stuff like this can be.

OpalCat
06-05-2006, 08:57 PM
No, the top of the screen only moves forward about a half an inch, which gives it exactly zero vertical movement capacity at all.

Cartooniverse
06-05-2006, 09:00 PM
Sorry, not so. I install windows for a living, (among other things, and for over 10 yrs now) and I see screens installed from inside and out. Even some of our new windows have inside installed screens. As with everything in construction, it just depends, ya know? ;)

You forgot to say Bare. :D

How old is the screen door? Can you Google the manufacturer info and find perhaps an exploded view of the assembly? In this manner, perhaps you can find out how it goes together?

Cartooniverse

AskNott
06-05-2006, 09:08 PM
Can the window frames be moved to one side, like against a hidden spring? I had some windows once where nothing could be removed until the one pane was slipped out; then everything else followed.

AncientHumanoid
06-05-2006, 09:09 PM
I have failed. My shame is complete. :(

OpalCat
06-05-2006, 09:34 PM
The house is about 9 years old. It isn't a screen door that is the problem, it is the screen in one of my windows. I have no idea who the manufacturer is--there are no stickers other than warning labels and the A-X7164 one I mentioned earlier.

I can't see any way to slide the window itself sideways.

:(

Harmonious Discord
06-05-2006, 10:41 PM
Iíve seen windows that have a small gap in the track just above the highest you can slide the bottom tracking pins up the track. You raise The screen fully to the top, and then pull the pins at the top to release the top of the screen. While the top is tilted outwards, you can raise the bottom just enough so the unmovable bottom pins exit via the slots that used to be too high by half an inch or so. I hope you understand me.

The small slot maybe lower, depending on the model.

danceswithcats
06-05-2006, 10:41 PM
Send pictures-detailed pictures-closeups of corners-the springa things, and I'll try to help ID. Also pictures of the latches for the bottom sash (it's a single hung window)-that can help identify the manufacturer. Forget the X-number-that was a production run or order number. One other source of information for the window is the data stamp on the IGU or insulated glass unit. Look between the panes and along the inside should be a manufacturer ID stamp which could also include a date code. After that, you're in a development, right? Who built the homes? They've got records of their suppliers for all delivered assemblies, presuming them to still be in business. It's a PITA, but I've been able to get window parts for customers by going through the drill. Email me if you're still stuck. ;)

danceswithcats
06-05-2006, 10:49 PM
Another thought-poke your head out of the window and look at the track which retains the screen sash. It could be that by pushing the screen straight up, behind the fixed upper sash, removal may be easy.

OpalCat
06-05-2006, 11:01 PM
Iíve seen windows that have a small gap in the track just above the highest you can slide the bottom tracking pins up the track. You raise The screen fully to the top, and then pull the pins at the top to release the top of the screen. While the top is tilted outwards, you can raise the bottom just enough so the unmovable bottom pins exit via the slots that used to be too high by half an inch or so. I hope you understand me.

The small slot maybe lower, depending on the model.

Um, the screen doesn't slide up or down at all. It is completely fixed in place. It also does not tilt outwards, as there is a lip on the outside window frame on all four sides of the screen.

OpalCat
06-05-2006, 11:04 PM
Another thought-poke your head out of the window and look at the track which retains the screen sash. It could be that by pushing the screen straight up, behind the fixed upper sash, removal may be easy.

I would poke my head out the window, except that would require removing ;)

Actually I can access the outside of the window just fine from my deck. I don't see any way to do anything from out there. I also can't see any way to push the screen up anywhere... it is in-line with the upper window, not in front or behind it. There is no way to maneuver it forward or backward to get around the upper window.

It's dark now, but I will try to take some photos tomorrow when it's light out.

This is really frustrating me :( I want to be able to take pictures of the birdies at my bird feeder, and they come out like crap through both glass and screen. Taking them out the upper window would require me to stand on something, and it still means taking the photos through glass. I want to be able to lift the bottom window up 4 or 5 inches and take photos out the bottom with nothing in the way.

mack
06-05-2006, 11:30 PM
FWIW I poked around with that number and found this message board (http://replacement-windows.com/windowbb/viewtopic.php?p=4588). Looks like the brand could be Jeld-Wen.

OpalCat
06-05-2006, 11:40 PM
Wow, cool :)
This does, indeed, look like my windows: http://jeld-wen.com/windows/vinyl/premium/index.cfm?collection_id=67

AncientHumanoid
06-06-2006, 12:23 AM
Wow, cool :)
This does, indeed, look like my windows: http://jeld-wen.com/windows/vinyl/premium/index.cfm?collection_id=67


well, the phone is 1-800-jel-dwen

The pdf instructions I looked at simply say to pull down on the spring loaded pins, as you have done, and as is normal. Pics would be a very good idea, as I can't imagine what the problem actually is. (Why I suggested having somebody, anybody else there look at it.)

OpalCat
06-06-2006, 03:06 AM
There isn't anybody else here. The closest person I know is about 20 minutes away.

OpalCat
06-06-2006, 02:09 PM
Ok I took pictures:
http://pics.livejournal.com/opalcat/gallery/0000fhfh

Cartooniverse
06-06-2006, 02:21 PM
Well, what the fuck. You have a piece of screened splined into an entire lower panel of a moulded vinyl framing, that's what ya have there little lady. :)

Jeeez. I apologize, I really thought you just weren't seeing how to get it out. From the photos you've provided, it does appear that it is not a framed screen, but screening laid in with spline to a panel. You'd have to rip out the entire panel.

Hmmm...

Nice deck. :D

A.R. Cane
06-06-2006, 02:40 PM
No, it appears to be a framed screen and removable. The problem seems to be that the lower window won't raise far enough to allow the screen to be tilted in toward the room. Either there has to be a way to slide the widow higher or to remove it, or at least swing it out of the way.
Are all the other widows made the same? Is the any hardware, slides, pins, etc., on the top or bottom edges of the sliding window frame?

A.R. Cane
06-06-2006, 02:47 PM
To elaborate, those little pins at the top of the screen frame, I assume there are two and they are spring loaded, are designed to be pulled down to unlock the screen frame from the window frame. You should then be able to tilt the top of the screen in and remove it, exceprt that the sliding window is in the way. That suggest to me that the sliding window can either be removed, or tilted out of it's track. There may be some other locking device, somewhere on the frame, to allow this.

OpalCat
06-06-2006, 03:07 PM
Yes that is exactly how it is, and exactly how I would expect it to be removed, and the inner window is exactly the reason it doesn't work. I will try to figure out if there is a way to move the window out of the way, but if there is, it isn't obvious, at least not to me.

OpalCat
06-06-2006, 03:10 PM
I actually considered removing the spline, since it's pretty easy to re-do with the cheap little spline tool (I have had to replace the screen in screen doors before because of cat damage)... the problem is that I'm not tall enough to lean off my deck far enough to be able to re-spline it later (the near side I could do, the far side, not so much) without removing the frame.. so it would still eventually come back to figuring out how to remove the frame.

Nice deck. :DThanks! :)

A.R. Cane
06-06-2006, 03:30 PM
I actually considered removing the spline, since it's pretty easy to re-do with the cheap little spline tool (I have had to replace the screen in screen doors before because of cat damage)... the problem is that I'm not tall enough to lean off my deck far enough to be able to re-spline it later (the near side I could do, the far side, not so much) without removing the frame.. so it would still eventually come back to figuring out how to remove the frame.
Thanks! :)

If you will address these questions I may be able to get other ideas:

Are all the other widows made the same? Is there any hardware, slides, pins, etc., on the top or bottom
edges of the sliding window frame? Also are these wood window frames? Is this a house or an apartment building?

PoorYorick
06-06-2006, 03:38 PM
The only advice I can offer after reading this thread is: Hang your gown on the hook, cover the drain with the towel, place the sachel in front of the robot panel, then place the pile of mail on top of the sachel. Then you can press the dispenser button.

Sorry, only geeks who've spent way too much time on Infocom games will get this. But damned if this doesn't sound like OpalCat should at least get some points for solving this.

OpalCat
06-06-2006, 03:44 PM
All of the windows are the same. The windows and frames are metal--no wood. This is a house. I have added two more photos to the gallery at the previous link. The first shows the hardware at the top of the sliding window. This is a little plastic gizmo that travels up and down with the window and does not move otherwise in any way that I am able to see. The second is the top of the track that the window slides up to, where there is a metal thingie. Said thingie appears on both sides of the window.

OpalCat
06-06-2006, 03:47 PM
The only advice I can offer after reading this thread is: Hang your gown on the hook, cover the drain with the towel, place the sachel in front of the robot panel, then place the pile of mail on top of the sachel. Then you can press the dispenser button.
I'm still trying to figure out what to do with the tube of viscous goo at the top of the dam, and wondering how they got a metal grate into the forest floor!

A.R. Cane
06-06-2006, 05:15 PM
All of the windows are the same. The windows and frames are metal--no wood. This is a house. I have added two more photos to the gallery at the previous link. The first shows the hardware at the top of the sliding window. This is a little plastic gizmo that travels up and down with the window and does not move otherwise in any way that I am able to see. The second is the top of the track that the window slides up to, where there is a metal thingie. Said thingie appears on both sides of the window.

OK, let's use technical terms here, the "thingie" that appears in the final photo, at the top of the frame, has to have a purpose, but first let's establish that I'm seeing this correctly. It appears that the sliding window is held in place by a lip, on the inside of the frame, that would prevent the slider itself from being removed, or tilted out of it's track. Is that correct and does the that lip run from top to bottom? Next question, does the slider go all the way to the top of the frame, or does it stop short, leaving a space between the top of the slider and the top of the frame?
Back to the "thingies", do they look like they can be flipped out, probably from the bottom? You might need a small intsrument for this, such as a small screwdriver, or a knife. Don't use took much force, we don't want to damage anything.
I like mechanical challenges. I know damn well if I were there I could figure this out. Unfortunately I'm clear across the country.

OpalCat
06-06-2006, 05:21 PM
The lip runs all the way up. The window goes almost to the top, but there is a gap. The plastic gizmos stick up higher than the top of the window, and they hit the top of the window frame, causing the gap.

The metal thingies do not appear to move with a moderate amount of prying. I think they may be there to provide a slight catch for the window when it is all the way open, to prevent it from slamming shut just from gravity.

A.R. Cane
06-06-2006, 05:39 PM
The lip runs all the way up. The window goes almost to the top, but there is a gap. The plastic gizmos stick up higher than the top of the window, and they hit the top of the window frame, causing the gap.

The metal thingies do not appear to move with a moderate amount of prying. I think they may be there to provide a slight catch for the window when it is all the way open, to prevent it from slamming shut just from gravity.

Sounds logical. There's only one other possibility, that I can think of. You said that, after pulling down on the two pins, that you could get the top of the screen to move in about a half inch. Is it possible that, after doing that, that you could lift the screen frame enough to free it from the lip at the bottom and then pull the bottom toward you, freeing it.
Sorry, but, if that doesn't work, I think I'm out of ideas.

OpalCat
06-06-2006, 05:47 PM
No, as I said before the amount it tilts forward allows for *no* vertical movement whatsoever. This was the first thing I tried. Also, the bottom slants up as well as having a lip, meaning that it would have to lift even higher in order to get out.

AskNott
06-06-2006, 06:02 PM
Two of the pix of the top rail of the bottom sash seem to show a square cap atop each side rail. If these caps will pop off...aw, heck, Opal, I don't know what happens then.

Kuizelemartz
06-06-2006, 06:30 PM
OK, at this point I think you should go to a bar, pick up a handsome and strong looking fellow and try to kill two birds with one stone.

A.R. Cane
06-06-2006, 06:57 PM
I'm sorry I couldn't be of help OC. I hope you figure it out and I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know the solution. Good luck.

Thin Ice
06-06-2006, 07:00 PM
I have the same type of sash mechanism in my windows. A.R. Cane is on the right track. The little gray/siver thingie in the right track (pic 11 of 11) is the key to removing the lower sash. There is one on the left side as well. Using a fingernail or butterknife, slide up under the lip at the bottom of it and pull each one toward the center of the window. They pivot from the top and won't fall out. They should swing out about a half inch or less.
If you look at the top of the sash in pics 9 and 10, you will see plactic inserts sticking up next to the little square caps on each side of said sash. These inserts hold the mechanism that lets the sash operate. Slowly raise the window sash up as far as it will go, passing those thingie that will stop the inserts and free them from the sash. You may feel some resistance as the sash moves in relation to the inserts but soon you will see the inserts start to appear from the bottom of the sash and you can slide one or both out.
Without the insert/s the sash is narrow enough to be removed from the track, giving access to the screen frame.
Reinstall the sash in reverse order.

Thin Ice
06-06-2006, 07:06 PM
You might try pulling out just one of the thingies first to see if the sash can be removed by removing just one insert.

Thin Ice
06-06-2006, 07:09 PM
Dammit, post 1 page 2 refers to last post page 1.

OpalCat
06-06-2006, 07:13 PM
Now we're making some progress!! I got to the part where the inserts stick out of the bottom, but I can't make them slide out. Do they just slide straight down? Should I just get some pliers and pull really hard or what?

(I don't think I would have ever figured this out on my own btw... how weird is this window?!)

Moirai
06-06-2006, 07:28 PM
Is Dominic home? I loved the suggestion of letting a kid figure it out in 10 seconds flat! :D

OpalCat
06-06-2006, 07:37 PM
Dominic is with his dad for the summer (he splits his summer between his dad and my mom).

Good news! I DID IT!!! I got the damned screen out! Thin Ice's directions were dead on, though pulling the insert out of the one side required pliers and a fair amount of effort on my part, especially since they're spring-and-string loaded and connected into all kinds of inner mysterious parts of the window frame that I didn't bother to examine, what with trying to hold the window up in the air while removing the screen...

I got the window back on, too, which I was a little worried about, but it was actually easier than putting it on, because the string & spring are pulling with you rather than against you.

This is another case where being something slightly taller than 5'2" would have come in handy...

THANK YOU THIN ICE!!!

A.R. Cane
06-06-2006, 09:38 PM
Dominic is with his dad for the summer (he splits his summer between his dad and my mom).

Good news! I DID IT!!! I got the damned screen out! Thin Ice's directions were dead on, though pulling the insert out of the one side required pliers and a fair amount of effort on my part, especially since they're spring-and-string loaded and connected into all kinds of inner mysterious parts of the window frame that I didn't bother to examine, what with trying to hold the window up in the air while removing the screen...

I got the window back on, too, which I was a little worried about, but it was actually easier than putting it on, because the string & spring are pulling with you rather than against you.

This is another case where being something slightly taller than 5'2" would have come in handy...

THANK YOU THIN ICE!!!

Do I at least get an "atta' boy"?
Hope you've managed to figure it out.

OpalCat
06-06-2006, 09:47 PM
I wanted to come back and thank everyone for their help, I was rushing to get to an 8:00 karate class so I didn't get to say everything I wanted to say.

But anyway, thank you to everyone for taking the time to brainstorm and research with me! I really appreciate it, and I really don't know how I would have finally gotten the damn thing done without your help. MWAH!!!

Thin Ice
06-06-2006, 09:55 PM
Glad I could help, OpalCat.
Atta boy, A.R. I mentioned you in post #50.

A.R. Cane
06-06-2006, 10:50 PM
Glad I could help, OpalCat.
Atta boy, A.R. I mentioned you in post #50.

I saw that, thanks. I'm just glad she finally figured it out. On to the next dragon! ;-)

OpalCat
06-06-2006, 11:06 PM
What I want to know is... WHY? WHY this strange and difficult system? I mean I never would have figured it out on my own, and it's not like I got "window manuals" when I bought the house... seriously, are people expected to just figure this stuff out? Wouldn't it have been a million times easier just to make a tiny change to the design of the outside frame so that when you pull down on the pins, you can push the screen outward and remove it? (This is another thing I wanted to get into earlier but was rushing to karate).

A.R. Cane
06-06-2006, 11:28 PM
Ever heard of "Rube Goldberg"? There is no logic to some things, or the logic may seem obvious to the originator, but be a total mystery to everyone else. Me? I can't fathom why they make computers and their programs so complicated, but maybe it's just the old dogs new trick theory. You figured it out, now will you pass that info. on to the next owner, or let 'em figure it out like you did?

danceswithcats
06-06-2006, 11:34 PM
Apologies for my misdirection last night-glad you've gotten good information and a solution to the problem.

To answer the 'why' question-it's because every window manufacturer does things a little bit differently. If manufacturer B wants to make a window similar to manufacturer A's product without patent infringement, they need to effect "changes to the art" which can be quite subtle. (and frustrating as hell to the end user)

When I install new windows, I give the customer literature and review operation, but there's no guarantee that the data will be passed on to owner #2 or beyond.

PoorYorick
06-07-2006, 09:34 AM
Ever heard of "Rube Goldberg"? There is no logic to some things, or the logic may seem obvious to the originator, but be a total mystery to everyone else. Me? I can't fathom why they make computers and their programs so complicated, but maybe it's just the old dogs new trick theory. You figured it out, now will you pass that info. on to the next owner, or let 'em figure it out like you did?
From my experience in software design, I have a theory: The screen maker realized that there was a flaw to the basic design. Rather than redesign the whole thing from scratch, they make a little tweak here, then a little tweak there, still doesn't work, so they put a pin here, a spring there, and so on. Finally, it "works."

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