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alphaboi867
05-26-2007, 05:04 PM
What happens if a recruit fails to complete boot camp (or the equivalent)? Are they made to repeat in until they pass or given an administrative seperation (or a combination of the two)? How did the Army handle it when the draft was still in effect?

Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor
05-26-2007, 05:11 PM
You go back, & do it again.
And again.
And again.
And, if they think you are screwing up on purpose, there are Drill Instructors for "difficult" recruits. I believe they have MPs to help them? Yes? No?

Yes.

neorxnawange
05-26-2007, 05:22 PM
A female friend of mine failed out of Marine boot camp at Parris Island by breaking her leg badly, requiring surgery, the placement of pins, months of physical therapy, etc. She was discharged from service, though I don't know the exact details of her discharge.

RunSilent
05-26-2007, 05:35 PM
I went through army basic training in 1966, the draft was definitely going on then...

Let's say, at the end of the 4th week, you are just not getting it, just not making it... they would "recycle" you back to another training company, maybe to the 2nd week or whatever they decide. You then are in a new company, at the 2nd week of basic training. Or, there was also this option: if your problem was lacking the physical condition to handle basic training, you would be sent to the "special training company," affectionately known as "F troop" after a tv show of the 60s. In this special training company you received an abundance of physical exercise, even more than in a regular training company. Then, when you were deemed "fit" you would be recycled into another regular training company.

If after several recycling episodes, you still couldn't make it, and they were sure you were not faking it, you would be discharged as "unfit for military duty."

If during the course of training you got injured, and could not continue training until the injurly healed (broken arm, etc.) you would be given some duties you could handle (paperwork, or whatever) for a couple of months until you healed, then you would go into another training company that was training at the week you were injured.

Things have probably changed since then, but that was U.S. Army basic training policy at Fort Gordon, Georgia, in 1966.

Jodi
05-26-2007, 05:40 PM
You go back, & do it again.
And again.
And again.
And, if they think you are screwing up on purpose, there are Drill Instructors for "difficult" recruits. I believe they have MPs to help them? Yes? No?

Yes.

I don't think this is correct. I believe if you can't handle basic training, they send you to a different part of camp to shape you up (improve physical conditioning, lose weight) and then add you back to a new class if/when your physical condition has improved. And I think this greatly sucks, because it's not like you're in a class with a graduation date; you're stuck in continual PT until you're added back in to a class.

And I think they only give you so much time to improve your performance before they wash you out.

And I also think that there are other reasons to wash out of basic, such as an inability to understand orders or an inability/refusal to follow them.

And I don't believe Military Police are used to jump-start recalcitrant grunts, either; that's not part of their MOS.

But this is all third-hand recollection from the daughter of a military man. I'm sure someone with actual experience with basic will be along shortly to give us the Straight Dope.

ETA: Possibly, someone will be along before I'm even done with my post. :)

John DiFool
05-26-2007, 06:01 PM
Okay, let's turn this around, and pretend that you've just been drafted in the middle of wartime. Absent such things as declaring youself a conscientious objector, if you are bound and determined to not go to war, what are your options? Try to fake a Section 8? Crawl up into a ball when the DI gets on your case, absorbing his kicks and slaps until he gives up? Act totally stupid, several notches below "Gomer Pyle" in Full Metal Jacket? I'm sure any DI worth his (or her) salt has plenty of ways to work around all that and get the recruit all shaped up. Just curious as to how far you could push things to try to get out of your assignment.

Spiny Norman
05-26-2007, 06:35 PM
You go back, & do it again.
And again.
And again.
And, if they think you are screwing up on purpose, there are Drill Instructors for "difficult" recruits. I believe they have MPs to help them? Yes? No?

Yes.

Heh. In my experience, it was mostly the other recruits who helped, and quite willingly, too.

During my days in Basic, inspections etc. were quite often performed on the squad level. In other words, if one rifle in the squad is insufficiently maintained, the entire squad will spend the next mealtime cleaning rifles instead of eating. People who habitually lose their squadmates meals, sleep and other privileges will be set straight by their peers in the squad long before the DI has to lift a finger.

Gala Matrix Fire
05-26-2007, 08:19 PM
When I went through boot camp in 1994, people who were going to be administratively processed out of the Army due to, for example, allergies to bee stings had to endure endless months of limbo that was at least as bad if not worse than boot camp itself. I don't remember what they called the unit they were put in, but I do remember that they had to do 24-hour duty about twice a week, on top of endless rounds of the usual boot camp treatment. Knowing that you had that to look forward to was a good incentive for making it out of boot camp the traditional way.

Miscue
05-26-2007, 08:49 PM
When I went through boot camp in 1994, people who were going to be administratively processed out of the Army due to, for example, allergies to bee stings had to endure endless months of limbo that was at least as bad if not worse than boot camp itself. I don't remember what they called the unit they were put in, but I do remember that they had to do 24-hour duty about twice a week, on top of endless rounds of the usual boot camp treatment. Knowing that you had that to look forward to was a good incentive for making it out of boot camp the traditional way.


This is basically what I remember from Army basic training in 1997. It does vary greatly by branch, but most of the advice given here has generally been true in my experience. Injuries that may heal are left to do so (and the trainee is then 'recycled' back the appropriate number of cycles), injuries that won't get you a medical or general discharge, and people that screw off to try to purposefully get discharged are kept for many weeks or months doing crap duty that sucks worse than training. Plus they get dishonorables, or generals if they are lucky. Of course, all of this comes down to the discretion of the commander.

WF Tomba
05-26-2007, 09:05 PM
So does anyone know just what percentage of recruits the training programs fail to make soldiers of?

Nametag
05-26-2007, 09:24 PM
From about.com:

Service: 1998 rate (2002)
Army: 17.9% (13.6%)
Air Force: 8.8% (7.1%)
Navy: 17.0% (14.0%)
Marines : 13.5% (11.7%)

"Non-medical recycle rates (where a recruit is "recycled" to spend more time in boot camp to overcome problems) for all the services are about the same, fluxuating between five and ten percent."

What Exit?
05-26-2007, 09:57 PM
Hey Bosda is this GQ or WAG? ;)

Those that fail out for any reason end up ASMOED back a week to another Training company. I got ASMOED because I fell behind with a trip to the Hospital for Pneumonia and dehydration. We had others ASMOED for failed educational training. Those that failed the PT were placed in a FIT division. FIT was an intensive Physical Training to get the boot caught back up to his company. Some managed to stay with their companies just taking FIT at night.

Those that completely failed out which included drug use, failure to meet Physical Fitness requirements and even in one case a severe Peanut Allergy, were sent to a TDY (Temporary Duty Unit) where they treated little better than prisoners. Some were kept for weeks and some were processed out within a week like the poor kid with the peanut allergy. While on TDY, they had the crappiest jobs on the base. Cleaning, Policing the grounds, cleaning out garbage dumpster, you name it.
I spent 3 weeks effectively as a guard in the TDY barracks, it was pretty good duty for me before heading out to the USS Ranger after completing my A school training. Very easy duty and I made sure I treated the failed boots as well as possible. Some of the Petty Officers were jerks.

Jim

Paul in Qatar
05-27-2007, 12:45 AM
Well I used to command a basic training company a couple of fifteen years ago.

The Army has the Trainee Discharge Program that lets us get rid of dirtballs with no muss, no fuss. (Also a TDP guy gets deducted from the recruiters coup count. Sweet.) I used it a couple of times for kids who could not adjust to Army life. Kind of a shame.

For people with broken arms and legs and whatnot, we keep them around (We had a company cat who took charge of them) until they heal up. Then we send them to another company to continue.

You see, it is a never-ending process. While we graduate this week, someone else graduates next week, and the week after that and so on.

Hypno-Toad
05-27-2007, 12:47 AM
I had a roomate who spent 6 months trying to get through basic. But he was bowlegged and just could not pass the running requirements. He wanted to do it, they knew he wanted to do it. But after holding him back for 6 months, the army finally let him go. After a few months, they really liked having a recruit who new where everything on the base was located. He spent much of his time stepping and fetching for the NCOs.

Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor
05-27-2007, 07:27 AM
Hey Bosda is this GQ or WAG? ;)

Those that fail out for any reason end up ASMOED back a week to another Training company. I got ASMOED because I fell behind with a trip to the Hospital for Pneumonia and dehydration. We had others ASMOED for failed educational training. Those that failed the PT were placed in a FIT division. FIT was an intensive Physical Training to get the boot caught back up to his company. Some managed to stay with their companies just taking FIT at night.

Those that completely failed out which included drug use, failure to meet Physical Fitness requirements and even in one case a severe Peanut Allergy, were sent to a TDY (Temporary Duty Unit) where they treated little better than prisoners. Some were kept for weeks and some were processed out within a week like the poor kid with the peanut allergy. While on TDY, they had the crappiest jobs on the base. Cleaning, Policing the grounds, cleaning out garbage dumpster, you name it.
I spent 3 weeks effectively as a guard in the TDY barracks, it was pretty good duty for me before heading out to the USS Ranger after completing my A school training. Very easy duty and I made sure I treated the failed boots as well as possible. Some of the Petty Officers were jerks.

Jim


There is no meaningful difference between your version & mine.

Bear_Nenno
05-27-2007, 08:20 AM
There is no meaningful difference between your version & mine.
Except, of course, for that part about MPs having anything at all to do with recruit training.

Uvula Donor
05-27-2007, 09:58 AM
There is no meaningful difference between your version & mine.

Except that your version was actually a poorly-informed guess with little useful information.

What Exit?
05-27-2007, 10:07 AM
There is no meaningful difference between your version & mine.
Your guess was not terrible, but as this was GQ, maybe you could wait for someone that actually knew the answer or at least part of the answer to show up. We have plenty of vets on the board and many active service members. As I recall, we even have at least one WWII vet, so we are pretty well covered for military answers by actual military personnel.

RunSilent covered the army during a draft era, Paul actually pushed boots, I briefly helped the failed ones out the door.

Sorry for this junior modding moment,
Jim

Bear_Nenno
05-27-2007, 10:11 AM
BTW, Army Doctrine for Basic Training is AR 350-6. You should be able to find the latest version in .pdf via Google. Keep in mind it's constantly being revised and updated. It's a great place to start and it will point you toward other relevant regulations. For example, you can find more specific info on handling conscientious objectors in AR 600-43.

RandMcnally
05-27-2007, 12:28 PM
When I went to Basic for the Air Force in '04, if you failed too many inspections, couldn't pass the run, failed the end exam, they'd recycle you back to the flight behind you, about a week. If the nearest flight was two weeks behind, then that's what you were sent back to.

If you're crazy, they're just going to send you home. We had this one guy in our flight who was a cutter, and just plain weird. So after about the second week, we woke up one morning and he was gone. Later that day we saw are DI inventoring his stuff to be sent back home.

We also had this guy who was a complete dingbat. By the time he got to my flight he had been recycled three times already. He didn't last long in ours either. About a month after I graduated Basic I was getting my plane tickets to go to Florida for additional training I saw him there getting his ticket to go home. If you fail too many times the Air Force will just cut its loses and get rid of you.

KarlGauss
05-27-2007, 02:36 PM
Off topic, but from a Canadian who has NO knowledge of these type of things.

In an all-volunteer army, by definition, you have volunteered to join and that (I think) includes boot camp. So, as a volunteer, can you just say, "I've had enough, I'm outta here". I suspect not - so what are the rules? What are the penalties for breaking them?

Thanks.

What Exit?
05-27-2007, 02:46 PM
Off topic, but from a Canadian who has NO knowledge of these type of things.

In an all-volunteer army, by definition, you have volunteered to join and that (I think) includes boot camp. So, as a volunteer, can you just say, "I've had enough, I'm outta here". I suspect not - so what are the rules? What are the penalties for breaking them?

Thanks.
In the all volunteer Army, you have still sign a contract to be in the Army. You have to work at being thrown out and can not just ask to go home. If you got an enlistment bonus, that would of course be forfeit, but IRC, that is not paid up front anyway. If you just refuse to participate they will threaten you with the equivalent of Brig time. In the end, they will TDY you out and make your life miserable for a few more weeks before you go.*

Jim

* Of course what I am relating is based on my experiences in 1985 and the Navy. This might be different currently.

DudleyGarrett
05-27-2007, 02:55 PM
When I went to Basic for the Air Force in '04, if you failed too many inspections, couldn't pass the run, failed the end exam, they'd recycle you back to the flight behind you, about a week. If the nearest flight was two weeks behind, then that's what you were sent back to.

If you're crazy, they're just going to send you home. We had this one guy in our flight who was a cutter, and just plain weird. So after about the second week, we woke up one morning and he was gone. Later that day we saw are DI inventoring his stuff to be sent back home.

We also had this guy who was a complete dingbat. By the time he got to my flight he had been recycled three times already. He didn't last long in ours either. About a month after I graduated Basic I was getting my plane tickets to go to Florida for additional training I saw him there getting his ticket to go home. If you fail too many times the Air Force will just cut its loses and get rid of you.

We had a guy in our flight who was a total fuck-up, AND he had an attitude. His name was Jansen. I don't remember his first name (don't really remember anyone's now that I think about it).

The TI came in at mail call (if I remember, it's after night details), after a particularly spirited day with Airman Jansen, and announced that we were no longer with Mr. Jansen's services. From what I remember, he was booted right then and there. I think he may have opted out, but I'm not sure.

Funny thing with the AF, if you get injured or sick, you get put on medical hold -- and that can last up to 8 months. Really strange.

A.R. Cane
05-27-2007, 03:18 PM
My boot experience was in '56, so my memory is a bit hazy, but I remember there was a special company for malcontents. We referred to it as "scrounge" company as many of the guys sent there couldn't conform to the cleanliness requirements. If your training was interupted for some reason not, under your control, such as medical problems, emergency leave, etc., you were simply transferred to a later company.
Someone earlier mentioned nonswimmers, you had to pass the swim test in the Navy, or you didn't graduate from boot, I doubt that has changed.
I've never been much of a swimmer and I recall the instructor pushing me off the dive tower. The whole company was lined up, including on the ladder (stairs to landlubbers), when it was your turn you jumped off the platform into the pool, simulating the jump from a ships deck into the sea, and swam 25-30 feet to the side of the pool. When it came my turn I hesitated, the platform was probably only 10-12 feet above the water, but it looked much, much higher looking down from above. The instructor gave me a shove and I was airborne. They worked w/ me and I managed to swim the required two lengths of the pool to pass the swim test.

What Exit?
05-27-2007, 03:25 PM
My boot experience was in '56, so my memory is a bit hazy, but I remember there was a special company for malcontents. We referred to it as "scrounge" company as many of the guys sent there couldn't conform to the cleanliness requirements. If your training was interupted for some reason not, under your control, such as medical problems, emergency leave, etc., you were simply transferred to a later company.
Someone earlier mentioned nonswimmers, you had to pass the swim test in the Navy, or you didn't graduate from boot, I doubt that has changed.
I've never been much of a swimmer and I recall the instructor pushing me off the dive tower. The whole company was lined up, including on the ladder (stairs to landlubbers), when it was your turn you jumped off the platform into the pool, simulating the jump from a ships deck into the sea, and swam 25-30 feet to the side of the pool. When it came my turn I hesitated, the platform was probably only 10-12 feet above the water, but it looked much, much higher looking down from above. The instructor gave me a shove and I was airborne. They worked w/ me and I managed to swim the required two lengths of the pool to pass the swim test.
They lightened the Swim requirement by 1985. They creatively created a class 4 swimmer classification. If you were going into a handful of very tough to fill rates like the Nuclear program's 3 ratings, you could not fail the swim test.

Jim

Balthisar
05-27-2007, 06:15 PM
In 1989 at Fort Lost in the Woods (Leonard Wood, Missouri), recycling was common for those that couldn't hack it. I spent a week in the hospital during basic, and they didn't recycle me, though. I was a reservist between 11th and 12th grade, though, so maybe they figured they didn't have time to recycle me. Hell, all I missed was bivouac and grenade throwing.

Little Plastic Ninja
05-27-2007, 07:26 PM
A related question, then: what are the minimum physical requirements to ENTER Basic training? Or are there any? I have to assume there's something, otherwise overweight schlubs like myself could get in. :)

Little Plastic Ninja
05-27-2007, 07:41 PM
In 1989 at Fort Lost in the Woods (Leonard Wood, Missouri), recycling was common for those that couldn't hack it. I spent a week in the hospital during basic, and they didn't recycle me, though. I was a reservist between 11th and 12th grade, though, so maybe they figured they didn't have time to recycle me. Hell, all I missed was bivouac and grenade throwing.

Ha! That's where my dad went to Basic, sometime in the late sixties.

He told me a story once about having to dig a foxhole in the middle of winter, only to be 'attacked' in the middle of the night. Leapt straight in, through the ice. :D

He relives it...

krisolov
05-27-2007, 08:05 PM
former Army Reservist Training Officer, circa late 1980s checking in. We would indeed recycle trainees who had medical or fitness issues; they went on restricted duty or went to a PT intensive training company to get them in better shape.

We did have our fair share of attempted washouts: the trainee who tried to commit suicide by hanging themselves from a showerhead in the middle of the night (ultimately discharged as unfit), the chronic bedwetter: made to set up his bunk by the CQ's desk, and woken every hour to make sure he had the opportunity to empty his bladder (not sure what happened with him), and the trainee who got into fights (sent to the disciplinary barracks where I had to hand him over. Those NCOs were scary).

The military will give you the chance to heal, get in shape physically or mentally, and continue with your service. If you can't or won't cut it, they will get rid of you for everyone's benefit.

ivylass
05-28-2007, 08:18 AM
Is there a difference between male and female boot camp, psychologically?

I spent about two weeks in the Navy hospital after Ivyboy was born (burst appendix) and my roommate was a young girl in the middle of boot camp. I forget what was wrong with her, but she was incredibly homesick and miserable. She told me how her DI would give her a baby bottle in front of all the other recruits and other "mean" things.

Her DI and someone else came to see her, and the recruit was crying and insisting she wanted to go home; she was done. The DI and the other woman seemed very nice and sympathetic, and IIRC hinted that they would begin processing her out.

Would they really have processed her out as being mentally unable to handle the rigors of boot camp? Or would they just be shining her on until she got physically better and then dumped her back in? I would imagine it could be dangerous to have a soldier who didn't want to be there. FWIW, this was about 17-18 years ago.

Bear_Nenno
05-28-2007, 08:45 AM
A related question, then: what are the minimum physical requirements to ENTER Basic training? Or are there any? I have to assume there's something, otherwise overweight schlubs like myself could get in. :)
To enter Basic Training, the minimum is something like 11 push-ups, 15-20 sit-ups, and run a mile in 12 minutes. There is no minimum to enlist though. There is simply a maximum bodyfat composition (something like 22-24% for males). If you are not over that percent, you can enlist and go through MEPS and on to your receptions battalion. There, you will be tested for the minimum PT requirements to be sent "down range" to start Basic. If you dont meet them, you will be sent to a training company that will get you in shape. The Army will get you in shape if you're trying, so the minimums are not difficult. Basic training is designed to get an out of shape couch potato into a fit soldier. They're not expecting to enlistees to be athletes when they arrive.

Would they really have processed her out as being mentally unable to handle the rigors of boot camp? Or would they just be shining her on until she got physically better and then dumped her back in? I would imagine it could be dangerous to have a soldier who didn't want to be there. FWIW, this was about 17-18 years ago.I don't doubt that they were truly sending her home. Some people just cannot adapt to military life and there are discharges and seperations available for them during initial entry training.

KarlGauss, when one volunteers to join the military he/she swears an oath and signs a contract. They agree to be bound by the UCMJ and follow orders of superiors. Like other contracts, they cannot simply renig if the other party doesn't release them of the obligation. Ever try to return a leased car early? ;)

There are volunteer units within the volunteer Army, though. (Such as Airborne, Rangers, Special Forces, etc). These units are completely volunteer and at any time a person can say "I want out" and they will be removed from the unit. They cannot be removed from the Army that easy though. If they de-volunteered from such a unit, they would be sent to some normal unit in accordance with the needs of the Army.

Musicat
05-28-2007, 09:01 AM
I had a roomate who spent 6 months trying to get through basic. But he was bowlegged and just could not pass the running requirements. He wanted to do it, they knew he wanted to do it. But after holding him back for 6 months, the army finally let him go. After a few months, they really liked having a recruit who new where everything on the base was located. He spent much of his time stepping and fetching for the NCOs.So did he get a General discharge? Honorable? I would imagine Dishonorable would be too harsh, but Honorable seems too generous (future benefit eligibility depends on the kind of discharge).

Paul in Qatar
05-28-2007, 09:18 AM
In 1989 at Fort Lost in the Woods (Leonard Wood, Missouri), recycling was common for those that couldn't hack it. I spent a week in the hospital during basic, and they didn't recycle me, though.

1989? Fort Leonard Wood? Delta Company, Sixth Battalion by any chance?

What Exit?
05-28-2007, 09:22 AM
So did he get a General discharge? Honorable? I would imagine Dishonorable would be too harsh, but Honorable seems too generous (future benefit eligibility depends on the kind of discharge).
If he never made it through basic, it is just a separation from service. Neither Honorable nor Dishonorable discharge IRC.

Musicat
05-28-2007, 09:34 AM
To enter Basic Training, the minimum is something like 11 push-ups, 15-20 sit-ups, and run a mile in 12 minutes. Maybe things are different now, but I know of no one in the US Army in 1966 who took any such tests; no pushups, no situps, no running. We just had to pass the medical minimums, which weren't much more than be alive & breathing; an acceptable number of limbs, fingers and toes; at least one testicle if male, vision correctable to 20/50; and no major deformities or life-threatening medical conditions like heart trouble or diabetes. (This is a gross simplification, of course.)

Oh, and we had to pass a written test that any 3rd-grader could have aced, and swear allegiance to Big Brother.

Musicat
05-28-2007, 09:38 AM
If he never made it through basic, it is just a separation from service. Neither Honorable nor Dishonorable discharge IRC.I wasn't aware that there was any way you could leave the service without some kind of discharge: General, Honorable or Dishonorable. If this is true, what would he enter on a future employment application where it asks for military service and/or discharge status? "None"? Would he be eligible for any Veterans' benefits?

What Exit?
05-28-2007, 09:48 AM
I wasn't aware that there was any way you could leave the service without some kind of discharge: General, Honorable or Dishonorable. If this is true, what would he enter on a future employment application where it asks for military service and/or discharge status? "None"? Would he be eligible for any Veterans' benefits?
As best as I can remember, he would not be eligible for Veterans' Benefits, I have no clue what he would list on an employment application. I would probably avoid listing it if possible.

I have a friend who got a separation from service as his rate was not available and it was guaranteed. He chose to go home rather than stay in*. He did not list any military service time, but he was in and out as an 18 year old and a 10 week gap in employment for an 18 year old is pretty normal.

Jim

* This might not be 100% factual, I am now passing on what he told me. I do not know anyone else that got out for this reason, I am not sure if this is how it really works, but he was an honest guy and I am still friends with him 20 years later. Take it for what it is worth.

SkeptiJess
05-28-2007, 10:36 AM
As I understand the situation, it's just like What Exit? says. My loser brother-in-law washed out of Navy Boot Camp in the the late '70s. He just wasn't able to adjust to military life -- specifically taking orders. He's still one of those people who regularly quits jobs because "they are bossing [him] around." Anyway, he was removed from his Boot Camp class and sent to a holding unit of some kind for a couple of weeks until they got him processed out, then he was sent home. I believe the specific term is an Entry-Level Discharge or Separation. He was told that he didn't have to include the discharge on job applications -- it was just like he'd never enlisted. No VA benefits, either. The only difference between him and person who'd never enlisted at all is that his record was flagged so that he could not enlist later, in the Navy or any other service, even if he changed his mind and wanted to.

Bear_Nenno
05-28-2007, 10:48 AM
Maybe things are different now, but I know of no one in the US Army in 1966 who took any such tests; no pushups, no situps, no running. Yea, things must be different now. Was there even a reception battalion back in those days? I think the bus just went straight to Basic Training. There, the Drill Sergeants got on the bus and starting yelling immediately at a bunch of civilians in street clothes.
Nowadays, the bus from your hometown will drop you off at the reception battalion. There you are inprocessed, given your uniforms, re-evaluated by medical personnel, given more forms to fill out, you get your financial and family stuff sqaured away, you get your haircut and start learning the bare-minimum military courtesy and such. It's a rather laid-back environment. After 4 days of this (only 4 if you're lucky!!), you are lined up to be handed over to your drill sergeants.
The drill sergeants go to the reception battalion to pick up their new company of fresh recruits. They will do a lay-out of all equipment and uniforms to ensure that nobody has lost something in the last half week, and that everyone has been given everything. Then, the soldiers are either marched to their new barracks, or they are put on a bus. Either way, when they arrive at their new barracks be it by foot or by bus, the stress and screaming begins!

Part of that 4 day inprocessing is a physical test. They dont actually care about your maximum though. For instance, everyone is lined up for push-ups. Once you bust out 11, you get up and the next person steps up. They dont care if you can do 100 at that point. You do 11, get a GO and move on. I'm positive the push-up minimum is 11. I am guessing about the exact standard for running and sit-ups though. But I can't be too far off. I'm sure it's listed in AR 350-6 if anyone wants to look for it.
Within the first week or so of actual Basic, you will take a diagnostic PT test to see exactly what your maximum performance is and where you stand.

hajario
05-28-2007, 11:10 AM
So did he get a General discharge? Honorable? I would imagine Dishonorable would be too harsh, but Honorable seems too generous (future benefit eligibility depends on the kind of discharge).

You need to be on active duty for some minimum amount of time to get Vet's Benefits. I don't recall the exact amount of time but it's more than the time spent in Basic. Benefits are not an issue here.

Beware of Doug
05-28-2007, 11:28 AM
As I understand the situation, it's just like What Exit? says. My loser brother-in-law washed out of Navy Boot Camp in the the late '70s. He just wasn't able to adjust to military life -- specifically taking orders. He's still one of those people who regularly quits jobs because "they are bossing [him] around." Anyway, he was removed from his Boot Camp class and sent to a holding unit of some kind for a couple of weeks until they got him processed out, then he was sent home. I believe the specific term is an Entry-Level Discharge or Separation. He was told that he didn't have to include the discharge on job applications -- it was just like he'd never enlisted. No VA benefits, either. The only difference between him and person who'd never enlisted at all is that his record was flagged so that he could not enlist later, in the Navy or any other service, even if he changed his mind and wanted to.I've heard that during the draft era people like this were frequently just ridden till they broke down. (Especially if they were black or druggies or other kinds of misfits.) Basically, if you didn't recognize the fundamental fact that Uncle Sam owned your ass, you were human garbage and treated as such. If you were not going to make a soldier, the training cadre felt no particular responsibility towards your continued wellbeing.

What Exit?
05-28-2007, 11:41 AM
I've heard that during the draft era people like this were frequently just ridden till they broke down. (Especially if they were black or druggies or other kinds of misfits.) Basically, if you didn't recognize the fundamental fact that Uncle Sam owned your ass, you were human garbage and treated as such. If you were not going to make a soldier, the training cadre felt no particular responsibility towards your continued wellbeing.
During the Draft era, I could believe that happened, thankfully for many reasons, we are now far removed from the draft era. I think citing this will be tough however.

MsRobyn
05-28-2007, 12:08 PM
You need to be on active duty for some minimum amount of time to get Vet's Benefits. I don't recall the exact amount of time but it's more than the time spent in Basic. Benefits are not an issue here.

You need to spend at least 180 days on active duty and get a general or higher discharge before you're eligible for benefits.

Robin

alphaboi867
05-28-2007, 04:22 PM
...If you were not going to make a soldier, the training cadre felt no particular responsibility towards your continued wellbeing.

Still at some point the Army would've had to decide the recruit is a total waste of time and money and not worth keeping around (even as motivation/entertainment for other soldiers).

...Oh, and we had to pass a written test that any 3rd-grader could have aced, and swear allegiance to Big Brother...

Conscripts actually had to swear an oath :eek: ?! That's messed up. Isn't an oath taked under duress completely meaningless? :confused:

Balthisar
05-28-2007, 05:00 PM
1989? Fort Leonard Wood? Delta Company, Sixth Battalion by any chance?
Wow... you made me have to look that up. Company C, 4th Battalion, 10th Infantry. Finally you've justified my holding onto all of that stuff through the years.

I know you're looking for retirement hangouts, so I'm going to assume you weren't going through basic training with me. Were you a DI or a DOD employee or doing something else there at the time?

Musicat
05-28-2007, 05:40 PM
Yea, things must be different now. Was there even a reception battalion back in those days? I think the bus just went straight to Basic Training. There, the Drill Sergeants got on the bus and starting yelling immediately at a bunch of civilians in street clothes.
Nowadays, the bus from your hometown will drop you off at the reception battalion. There you are inprocessed, given your uniforms, re-evaluated by medical personnel, given more forms to fill out, you get your financial and family stuff sqaured away, you get your haircut and start learning the bare-minimum military courtesy and such. It's a rather laid-back environment... If you are truly serious and not whooshing me, that sure is different, and you all sound like a bunch of pansy-ass wusses. SO GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER AND GET OFF THE RAG, YOU PUSSIES!!!! YOU'RE IN THE ARMY NOW, AND AIN"T NOBODY GONNA TUCK YOU IN AT NIGHT OR WIPE YOUR ASS, SO DROP AND GIVE ME 20 GOOD ONES!!

Sorry, thought this was the pit, and it just brought back fond memories of torturing green recruits...Conscripts actually had to swear an oath :eek: ?! That's messed up. Isn't an oath taked under duress completely meaningless :confused: ? Yes, everyone had to take an oath to follow the Dear Leader, or whatever he/it was called in those days. Oddly enough, the person in our particular group of 100 or so, the one draftee who scored highest on the tests, refused to take it. He was carted off to jail and I was given the group's records to transport to the next station instead, as I was #2 in line (they must not have heard the oath I really took under my breath as I was far from a willing soldier).

Mk VII
05-28-2007, 06:45 PM
Back in those days they had the draft, and that would include a certain percentage of people who didn't really want to be there. Most could be convinced that it was in their best interests to make the best of it, become reasonably good soldiers and put up with it until discharge. Those who were determined to buck the system would be given a hard time, or lots more would be doing it if they saw how easy it was.
Really hard cases who were not amenable to discipline and were always striking NCOs etc., would probably have been got rid of eventually as they were more trouble than they were worth.

Nava
05-29-2007, 02:33 AM
Depends.

My cousin was in the USMC. He got kicked out during Basic on grounds of "complete stupidity" but the discharge says Medical.

The complete stupidity consists of having hurt his ankle and being too macho to say anything when it was swelling. If he'd gone to the meds at that point, they would have given him other stuff to do while the rest of the recruits were jumping obstacles; if the meds thought he wouldn't recover on time, a medical leave and "come back with the next batch" - at least, this is what he was told when they were putting him on the bus back home. Instead, the next time they were on the obstacle run he landed on that foot again and when the sarge realized his foot had been purple and swollen beforehand... well, I understand a pissed off DI is not a nice sight.

So in at least this one case, "Medical Discharge" stands for "presence of brain doubtful, not bothering do an MRI to search for it."

Bear_Nenno
05-29-2007, 02:45 AM
If you are truly serious and not whooshing me, that sure is different, and you all sound like a bunch of pansy-ass wusses. SO GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER AND GET OFF THE RAG, YOU PUSSIES!!!! YOU'RE IN THE ARMY NOW, AND AIN"T NOBODY GONNA TUCK YOU IN AT NIGHT OR WIPE YOUR ASS, SO DROP AND GIVE ME 20 GOOD ONES!!OMG!!! Foul language!!!! TRAINEE ABUSE!!!! Turn in your Hat, and your drill sergeant badge. The orders announcing the award of both will be rescended and you are no longer authorized to wear them. Go push paper in the S shop while we outprocess you. It's a shame... you were a decent drill, but you just went and ruined your entire military career by swearing at recruits.

Nava
05-29-2007, 02:48 AM
Spanish soldiers, draftees or not (no more draftees right now), swear an oat at the end of any spot of training - this is the first time I see it considered "under duress"! The "duress" for draftees is for serving, not for the oath itself.

After all, if you're not going to swear at the end of training (getting a trip to the pen that's longer than your service period), you may as well get your ass to the pen a month before at the start of training. During the last part of the 200 years or so that Spain had the draft, before conscious objectors and civil service, the usual method for "getting out" was to "volunteer for the Red Cross": you had to serve a bit longer, but you usually got to serve at home, didn't have to live in barracks...

Exploding Kitchen
05-29-2007, 08:02 AM
I had the unfortunate experience of getting my knee injured when I went into the Army in late 2003. Stupid unarmed combat training.

Anyways, it was a week before they sent us home for the holidays, so the physician's assistant gave me a sheet of rehab exercises to do during the two weeks off and told me I'd be re-evaluated once I got back.

Yeah. It's hard to do rehab exercises when you can hardly move your knee...

Anyways, I got back, and since I was physically unable to continue training, they put me in a Physical Rehabilitation and Training Program (PTRP) company (This was at Ft. Jackson, SC). Basically, we were all a bunch of people who had in one way or another gotten ourselves crippled during either Basic or AIT (we even had one kid who fell out of his bunk the first morning of reception and broke his wrist, and therefore had not even seen Basic Training yet). The NCOs there were drill sergeants, but it was a much more laid back (But still quite structured) environment than the high stress training of basic. We basically ran the reception battalion...we handed out the clothes to the recruits, we processed the paperwork folders, we did the guard duty...

But for a lot of us, it was completely unproductive to healing. In my case, I arrived at the company on crutches and with a 10 minute standing profile (meaning that I was to stand no more than 10 minutes out of every 60)...and my first night there, I was put on patrol duty for two hours, meaning I got to crutch myself around the battalion with a girl with a broken arm. I was also put on a top bunk...on the second floor of the building. Remember, bum knee, crutches, etc.

I did end up getting pretty close to well...after sitting in the unit for 4 months. However, I still couldn't run for very long on it, and was given discharge orders for day 178 of my time on active duty. Entry-level discharge, determined I wasn't injured enough for a medical, and shipped off two days before I got get any benefits.

I'm still burned about it to this day, because I -tried- my hardest to get back to training. Tripod pushups are not fun, but I did them to stay in shape...I busted my butt on the elliptical in the rehab gym during PT...things like that.

On top of all this...I never actually saw a real doctor for my injury the entire time I was hurt. I was diagnosed by a civilian physician's assistant, and assigned to a very nice Captain who was a physical therapist...but never actually got an MRI from the military (when I got home, I got one, torn medial meniscus, yay!), and the only time I saw an actual doctor was when I had a migraine so bad the DS sent me to the emergency room and and a MAJ doctor gave me a shot of Imitrex and gave me a prescription for pills should I get another one. And then the discharge two days before I was to become permanent party really pissed me off.

Anyways, that was a rant. But at least on the medical issues, if it can be fixed and it's long term, at some of the training sites (I believe just Leonard Wood and Jackson) they have PTRP units for long term recovery. They aren't exactly run well, but they are there to give an injured trainee with a chance to recover the chance to recover and stay on.

Musicat
05-29-2007, 08:52 AM
It's a shame... you were a decent drill, but you just went and ruined your entire military career by swearing at recruits.If you removed the swearing from my DI's vocabulary, it would have been a very quiet drill.

Silent, even. :)

Guess things have really changed. You mean recruits now are people?

Exploding Kitchen
05-29-2007, 09:07 AM
My drill sergeants all swore (in 2003/2004). One was personally trying to quit at the request of his wife, which made smokings all the worse if he got pissed off enough to let a swear word slip out, which usually ended up with him cussing himself out for cussing, cussing us out for driving him to cussing, and cussing at us the whole time we were pushing, doing front-back-gos, or whatever other various and other sundry exercises we were subjected to.

I mean, one drill sergeant in my platoon called one of the exercises we did "The Monkey F---er" because in his own words, when asked why he called it that...

"Well, why the f--- not? You look like a g-ddamn monkey f---ing a football when you do it."

His comments were not censored.

Kalhoun
05-29-2007, 10:14 AM
My son's brother signed up a couple years ago. He didn't complete boot camp and was discharged as "failure to acclimate" or something similar. I forget the exact wording.

What Exit?
05-29-2007, 10:40 AM
My son's brother signed up a couple years ago. He didn't complete boot camp and was discharged as "failure to acclimate" or something similar. I forget the exact wording.
Was that suppose to read brother's son?

Gary Robson
05-29-2007, 10:41 AM
And I don't believe Military Police are used to jump-start recalcitrant grunts, either; that's not part of their MOS.MOS?

Those that fail out for any reason end up ASMOED back a week to another Training company.ASMOED? Sheesh. I thought I had enough family members in the military to know the language. At least I know SNAFU and FUBAR ;)

at least one testicle if male...Why does the army care whether you have testicles?

What Exit?
05-29-2007, 10:52 AM
MOS?
MOS is the equivilent of the Rate in the Navy. I think it is Military Occupational Specialty.
ASMOED? Sheesh. I thought I had enough family members in the military to know the language. At least I know SNAFU and FUBAR ;)
ASMO, means to be sent back a week in basic training. I cannot for the life of me, remember what the acronym parses out to.

Jim

Hypno-Toad
05-29-2007, 10:53 AM
So did he get a General discharge? Honorable? I would imagine Dishonorable would be too harsh, but Honorable seems too generous (future benefit eligibility depends on the kind of discharge).

I don't know and I'm not sure if I want to bring the subject up to him now. It may be a sticky thing after all these years.

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