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gytalf2000
10-09-2007, 01:26 PM
I know that unarmed people have occasionally killed mountain lions and leopards.
Is it possible for a human to kill a lion or tiger, or are these cats just too big and powerful?

The Great Sun Jester
10-09-2007, 02:02 PM
I have no link, but I recall a story of a man in Africa who had a lioness hop in through his window and attempt to eat him in his bed. The lioness was an old loner (which is why she was willing to go for manflesh) who had bad, dull teeth. She messed him up pretty good but he did end up fighting her off. Or maybe he gutted her with a bedside knife, I can't remember now. At any rate, but for the knife it sounds like he might have been able to drive her off from the attack.

But a lion/tiger in their prime? I think only Chuck Norris could pull it off, but even then only if he was prepared.

Stranger On A Train
10-09-2007, 02:07 PM
I know that unarmed people have occasionally killed mountain lions and leopards.
Is it possible for a human to kill a lion or tiger, or are these cats just too big and powerful?Cite? I'm not sure how one would even go about killing a large cat barehanded. Aside from a very lucky shot to the throat there just isn't much that is vulnerable. You're not going to break its neck or do enough damage by kicking to the ribs or belly to deter it. Big cats (Panthera and Puma) tend to attack from above and behind after stalking the prey (that is, when not stealing from a pack of jackals or wolves--so much for the noble predator), so as a target you're not even going to have much of a chance to respond, but should you get face-on with an attacking cat the best approach is probably to stick fingers in the eyes or ears. Unprovoked attacks on humans are rare and usually the result of an ill or injured cat desperate for food and unable to predate effectively.

I might give an experienced man with a large knife even odds against the cat if he's not attacked from behind, although the resulting wounds are likely to be mutually mortal. A prepared man with a long pike or poleaxe would have good odds I think, though it seems likely that the cat will retreat for easier game.

Stranger

Mr. Slant
10-09-2007, 02:07 PM
Careful invoking Chuck Norris here.
He might go on a tiger-killing spree and materialize next to each and every tiger, round-house kicking the entire species into extinction, like he did with the dinosaurs.

Snarky_Kong
10-09-2007, 02:07 PM
I know that unarmed people have occasionally killed mountain lions and leopards.
Is it possible for a human to kill a lion or tiger, or are these cats just too big and powerful?

Can I get a cite for this? I have a hard time believing that an unarmed human could do anything but die against a 100lb cat that isn't already in bad shape.

Lemur866
10-09-2007, 02:17 PM
Another Straight Dope perennial, who would win in a fair fight to the death, X or Y?

The trouble is that in nature, fights are almost never fair, and usually only to the death for one of the parties to the fight.

Lions have no interest in fair fights. They like to attack from behind, surprise their target, and have it dead before it knows what hit it. And that's how the vast majority of big cat attacks against humans happen. If the person knows where the cat is, and the cat knows the person knows, the vast majority of big cats will back off. Predators aren't interested in fair fights, they want to put food in their stomachs and avoid being injured. And prey species aren't interested in fair fights, they want to avoid being killed.

A lion will avoid attacking if the lion suspects it might be injured, even if the prey is certain to be killed. If the lion attacks, but can't disable its prey quickly, it is very likely to abandon the attack if it can.

gytalf2000
10-09-2007, 02:17 PM
Can I get a cite for this? I have a hard time believing that an unarmed human could do anything but die against a 100lb cat that isn't already in bad shape.

I am sorry, I do not have a specific cite other than my perhaps-faulty memory. I remember reading somewhere about a fellow who jammed his hand down a cougar's throat, killing it -- I imagine that his hand/arm was pretty much devastated from the experience.

I need to go back through some books to find out about the guy who prevailed over a leopard.

You are likely correct about both cats being "already in bad shape." Otherwise, the humans would wind up as dinner!

Bobotheoptimist
10-09-2007, 02:20 PM
I can see how it'd be possible if, for instance, the kitty was attacking someone else and you managed to get on it and choke it to death. I don't know how able big cats are to get something off their back, maybe their rear claws could tear you up, but a 200 pound dude with with a stranglehold on a 150 pound puma... maybe. But a 500 pound lion? I'm not sure I could get my arm around his neck.

I base this partially on conjecture and partially on holding off a big dog one time. So pure conjecture, really.

Confused
10-09-2007, 02:29 PM
http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,284635,00.html -- But it's a Bob Cat...

http://nbcsandiego.com/video/2759062/index.html -- Hmm, I think the guy was delusional.

http://cbs11tv.com/watercooler/local_story_171223457.html -- Tiger attack.

Bobotheoptimist
10-09-2007, 02:38 PM
http://cbs11tv.com/watercooler/local_story_171223457.html -- Tiger attack.“Somehow I threw the tiger off me and my friend beat him with a weed eater."

AHA! So he wasn't unarmed. Always, and I mean always, bring a weed eater when in tiger country.

Jayrot
10-09-2007, 06:48 PM
Just don't bring a weed eater to a lawnmower fight.

Blake
10-09-2007, 07:09 PM
Cite?

A 73-year-old man used his bare hands to tear out the tongue of a leopard that attacked him in Kenya and killed it.. (http://news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,15703388-1702,00.html)

Not sure how much faith I would place in that particular claim, but the problem is that any account we get is going to be anecdotal.

A more reliable account is that of Carl Akeley (http://www1.umn.edu/scitech/assign/mu/hunter2.html), who killed a leopard that attacked him. In that case he managed to straddle the animal and choke it to death. He was in pretty bad shape afterwards though.

In both these cases, and in all the others I have heard of where a person killed a big cat, the animals were already sick or injured and, as you can see from the photo, Akeley's beast was on the small size.

Against a lion or tiger you'd have no chance. You're simply outclassed. The cats are heavier, faster, stronger and much better armed. Even severely weakened by inury any cat that is still capable of attacking a human will kill you long beore you can kill it. At best you might hope to drive it off before it killed you but you woudl never kill it.


I'm not sure how one would even go about killing a large cat barehanded. Aside from a very lucky shot to the throat there just isn't much that is vulnerable.

Well cat's arent really any more invulnerabe than humans. They still have all the same basic weak spots such as the eyes, spinal column or the abdomen and you can still break legs, choke them and so forth and you can still presumably knock one out with a solid blow.

The problem is how the hell you manage to even land a blow on a cat, much less grab it. They're amazingly fast and flexible animals with impresive strength for their size and they have a choice of five weapons, any of which will likely disbale you if it connects.

NoCoolUserName
10-09-2007, 07:16 PM
Heck, Tarzan used to kill lions with his bare hands all the time. 'Course, he was the one attacking from behind. And he was one tough dude, too.

pravnik
10-09-2007, 07:21 PM
Heck, Tarzan used to kill lions with his bare hands all the time. 'Course, he was the one attacking from behind. And he was one tough dude, too.Ah, he had a knife. That's cheating.

Q.E.D.
10-09-2007, 07:26 PM
Plus, he had that whole, y'know, fictional thing going for him. :p

sturmhauke
10-09-2007, 07:29 PM
I'm not a martial arts expert, but the comic book lore always says a punch straight to the nose will push the nose bone through the skull.
I asked that question once, but it seems to have fallen off the Board. (I really wish they'd archive old threads. Anyway...) The answer is that the front of your head is the thickest, densest mass of bone in your entire body. If you kill someone with a punch to the nose, it won't be because you shoved their nose into their brain but because their brain sloshed around too hard inside the skull.

pravnik
10-09-2007, 07:47 PM
Plus, he had that whole, y'know, fictional thing going for him. :pHis modern day mountain man counterpart may live, though: check out this guy I saw on one of the martial arts message boards:

Hunter Kills Grizzly With Knife (http://edmontonsun.com/News/Alberta/2007/08/25/4445512-sun.html) :eek: That's some knife.

It requires registration now, but I read it before, and the gist of the story is "guy kills grizzly bear with knife." If this weren't reported in a major paper, I'd call absolute bullshit. Hell, I'm still having troubling swallowing it.

The Great Sun Jester
10-09-2007, 07:50 PM
Heck, Tarzan used to kill lions with his bare hands all the time. 'Course, he was the one attacking from behind. And he was one tough dude, too.
You saying Tarzan could take Chuck Norris? :dubious:

WonJohnSoup
10-09-2007, 07:53 PM
If lions and tigers are built similar to humans in regards to getting blood to the brain, I can imagine a well-muscled 200-lb martial artist taking out a lion or tiger smaller than him with some sort of blood choke. Funnily enough, Brazillian Jiu-jitsu practioners call the Rear Naked Choke, "Mata leao," or, "Lion killer," though I'm sure that's just for effect.

pravnik
10-09-2007, 07:56 PM
Hunter Kills Grizzly With Knife (http://edmontonsun.com/News/Alberta/2007/08/25/4445512-sun.html) :eek: That's some knife. Same story, no registration:
http://cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/2007/08/21/bear-attack.html

pravnik
10-09-2007, 08:13 PM
If lions and tigers are built similar to humans in regards to getting blood to the brain, I can imagine a well-muscled 200-lb martial artist taking out a lion or tiger smaller than him with some sort of blood choke. Funnily enough, Brazillian Jiu-jitsu practioners call the Rear Naked Choke, "Mata leao," or, "Lion killer," though I'm sure that's just for effect.Speaking as a modestly well-muscled 200-lb martial artist myself, I sure wouldn't bet on it. The mata lećo is probably a reference to Hercules and the Nemean lion, but without Herculean strength I don't see any way possible of getting and maintaining position long enough to pull it off, even if it is humanly possible to clamp the beast's neck off. Even with a size advantage, it would be like trying to wrestle an insanely strong and fast child with a neck like a car tire and knives where their fingers and teeth should be. I can't even hold my housecat down to give it a pill. :D

Still, if the Mythbusters guys want to give it a try, I'll sure watch.

Mangetout
10-09-2007, 08:31 PM
At best you might hope to drive it off before it killed you but you woudl never kill it.I agree - if you have the chance to confound or startle it (I guess by acting in the opposite manner to that typical of a timid prey animal), you could end up living to tell the tale, but once the animal engages physically, survival would be some kind of freakish fluke. (i.e. you'd better hope a huge crocodile comes along and mauls the big cat and scares it away).

WonJohnSoup
10-09-2007, 08:54 PM
Speaking as a modestly well-muscled 200-lb martial artist myself, I sure wouldn't bet on it. The mata lećo is probably a reference to Hercules and the Nemean lion, but without Herculean strength I don't see any way possible of getting and maintaining position long enough to pull it off, even if it is humanly possible to clamp the beast's neck off. Even with a size advantage, it would be like trying to wrestle an insanely strong and fast child with a neck like a car tire and knives where their fingers and teeth should be. I can't even hold my housecat down to give it a pill. :D

Still, if the Mythbusters guys want to give it a try, I'll sure watch.

Oh, yeah, I'd imagine it'd be a close fight with the man not looking too pretty afterwards, but I dunno, I can't help but imagine it'd be possible if the man was larger than the cat.

Personally, I'm still waiting for the UFC "Taekwondo Vs. Polar Bear" matchup. :D


And oh, if we're going off onto other animals and bringing in weapons, I once saw a video of an African pygmy taking out an elephant single-handely with one thrust from his spear. No joke.

Chronos
10-10-2007, 12:49 AM
A human in good shape vs. a cat that weighs less than him? Sure, if he's lucky. But are there any adult lions or tigers that weigh less than a human? I would doubt it.

Bryan Ekers
10-10-2007, 01:13 AM
And oh, if we're going off onto other animals and bringing in weapons, I once saw a video of an African pygmy taking out an elephant single-handely with one thrust from his spear. No joke.

Pfffft, big deal. It's a herbivore.


Best bet vs. a lion? Make yourself look big.

Stranger On A Train
10-10-2007, 02:29 AM
Well cat's arent really any more invulnerabe than humans. They still have all the same basic weak spots such as the eyes, spinal column or the abdomen and you can still break legs, choke them and so forth and you can still presumably knock one out with a solid blow.

The problem is how the hell you manage to even land a blow on a cat, much less grab it. They're amazingly fast and flexible animals with impresive strength for their size and they have a choice of five weapons, any of which will likely disbale you if it connects.The basic barehanded lethal striking points on a human being, neglecting ninja black-art Instant Death Kill PointsTM, are the temples, throat, and back of the neck. You might incapaciate someone with a strike to the solar plexus, kidneys, or bladder, and breaking an arm or leg joint or poking them in the eye or ear may seriously inconvenience them. Most of these just aren't going to be available on a big cat; as you note, they're incredibly quick and you just don't have a chance of locking up a joint fast enough to break or strike at a limb; the organs are better protected under the animal, and given the amount of pure muscle tissue on the torso I doubt you could make a credible strike; nor would a normal person, or even Arnold Schwartzenegger, have much of a chance breaking a cat's neck. That leaves you back with throat, eyes, and ears, and if you're in position to do that, you're going to likely suffer lethal injury yourself.

The thing is (as I'm sure Blake is aware) cats are strictly predators; they can't forage, and so any injury that might conceivably impact their ability to hunt is something they'll avoid at all cost. Hence, they seek out the weakest of the herd, nand any creature that stands up to them is likely to cause them to back off and find easier prey...unless, of course, they're desperate or habituated and know that an unarmed man poses no real threat. Then it's H. sapiens a tartar for dinner.

Stranger

RaftPeople
10-10-2007, 02:31 AM
One of the stories on this page is a person wrestling a cougar into submission.

http://cycling.ahands.org/bikecougar.html

DrDeth
10-10-2007, 02:50 AM
A human in good shape vs. a cat that weighs less than him? Sure, if he's lucky. But are there any adult lions or tigers that weigh less than a human? I would doubt it.

Right. If it is a cage death match, I'd bet on a human in good shape and with training (That's fair as wild cats are also in good shape and have "training"). But I'd also bet the man would need some serious medical attention. I have even heard that pound for pound a human (in great shape) is stronger than a cat (We are primates, after all!) I am talking vs a puma, leopard or Jaguar, which we generally outwiegh.

The problem is, as Blake, Stranger On A Train and others have said: generally with big cat vs human, the human is ambushed. Then, really he has little chance. Still, if he shows enough fight and injures the cat, the cat will likely give up, more or less as Stranger On A Train posted.

I remember a story about a naturalist who only had one arm, but still fought off a leopard who jumped him. Can't find it right now. I think it was in "On the Track of Unknown Animals" by Bernard Heuvelmans, but I wont swear to it.

But note that african natives, with just a spear can handily kill a lion.

Without a spear, etc, an ambushed human vs something as large as a lion or tiger is pretty well toast.

Confused
10-10-2007, 04:14 AM
Doesn't the claws and fangs on the cat count as weapons? So wouldn't it be fair for a human to wield at least a spear?

slaphead
10-10-2007, 04:34 AM
There are quite a few anecdotes (some well documented) from the Days of Empire(TM) of various europeans and locals being attacked by Leopards and managing to either hold the thing off until others came to their aid, or fighting it off, and occasionally managing to e.g. strangle the cat. Almost invariably they were horribly maimed, usually by the Leopard doing that 'kick with the back legs' thing that housecats do when wrestling, often resulting in partial evisceration. However the number of people who simply died within seconds of being attacked must be many orders of magnitude greater.

As for really big cats - I've never heard of it someone overcoming a lion or tiger, but it has probably happened now and again, on the basis that even million-to-one chances will happen given enough chances.

But in general I think it's fair to say that in a cage match between two healthy specimens, with no weapons but a world-class ER just outside the cage, a human has a small chance against a leopard or similar but essentially no chance against a lion/tiger. I'd be willing to place a small bet on the human since I'd get great odds, but not any significant amount. I certainly wouldn't want to pay for their medical treatment and under no circumstances would I want to be the person in the cage.

No Pratchett references at this time, please.

muldoonthief
10-10-2007, 09:43 AM
But note that african natives, with just a spear can handily kill a lion.

Without a spear, etc, an ambushed human vs something as large as a lion or tiger is pretty well toast.

You say "just a spear" as if it's almost inconsequential. A human with a spear is many times more effective than an unarmed human. It gives you a distance attack, a way to hold off an enemy without taking damage, and a sharp piercing or cutting instrument. You might even be able to throw it in a pinch. A spear is pretty much the ideal handheld weapon until you get into firearms.

flight
10-10-2007, 10:02 AM
For example, imagine the outcome of "Human with spear" vs "Human without spear."

cmkeller
10-10-2007, 10:35 AM
Q.E.D.:

Plus, he had that whole, y'know, fictional thing going for him.

Yeah, but the lions were fictional too, so it's not like that's an advantage for him alone. :)

Tibidabo
10-10-2007, 10:39 AM
Although doubtful I began thinking about going for the neck etc...

But there's just no way. Remember the cat will be going for your neck too...

Wiki:
Tigers prefer to bite the throats of large prey and use their muscled forelimbs to hold onto the prey, bringing it to the ground. The tiger remains latched onto the neck until its prey dies
The combination of claws and power behind a tiger's paws enables it to kill an adult human with one swipe.[42]


From the reference (42) above:
A tiger paw flashed out from underneath the chain-link cage at the Siberian Magic exotic-animal farm, slashing at Tanya Dumstrey-Soos and dropping her to the ground. For nearly an hour, her 14-year-old son and the 15-year-old son of her fiancé tried to stanch the bleeding from a severed artery in her leg while an ambulance made its way over the winding road to the remote farm in the British Columbia Interior

Even if you somehow managed to get it's neck before it got to yours, I don't think you'd stay behind it for very long... they're too strong, too flexible. And don't forget they scratch their neck area with their hind legs... so I dunno, can you maintain a choke hold on a tiger while he's systematically removing the flesh and er.. probably some of your kidneys from your back!? :eek:

Mr. Slant
10-10-2007, 11:34 AM
For example, imagine the outcome of "Human with spear" vs "Human without spear."

Another note is that the accounts I can recall of "African fellow hunts great big animal" usually involve a half-dozen or so little spear-carrying men chasing after their prety.
I'd be a whole lot less skeptical of going hunting for a deadly animal if 5 guys who knew what they were doing were going to have my back.

Mosier
10-10-2007, 11:35 AM
Man vs. tiger, man vs. lion, man vs. sabretooth or man vs. Tyranosaurus fucking Rex, my money's still on the man.

Mr. Slant
10-10-2007, 11:38 AM
You did note that the OP pretty much specifies "unarmed" man, right?
Sure, give me an A-10 Warthog and I'll hunt T-Rex all day, with occasional breaks for fuel and ammo.

Mosier
10-10-2007, 11:47 AM
Do I lose if the hypothetical man crushes the lion's skull with a rock or pokes him in the eye with a stick or something?

Mr. Slant
10-10-2007, 11:59 AM
Well, that would be down to luck.
I mean, we could posit that you might have a suitable natural tool handy, but really the odds that a stick the right size, shape and strength is handy are pretty low. Same thing with a rock... there's probably a rock nearby, but 99% of rocks are NOT suitable for this endeavor.
It's unlikely.. I mean, since this is a completely random scenario, it MIGHT take place in the back of a fully loaded SWAT van, and you might HAPPEN to be able to get your hands on an AR-15 before you got turned into Meow Mix, but that's pretty unlikely too.
I'm saying the pointy stick or conveniently placed rock are out of bounds. I suppose the OP here is Supreme Arbitrer for that question.

slaphead
10-10-2007, 12:03 PM
Do I lose if the hypothetical man crushes the lion's skull with a rock or pokes him in the eye with a stick or something?
Those count as weapons, even if not particularly good ones. If it isn't part of the normal human body, it's not allowed. Not sure if growing your hair really long, plaiting it into a rope and strangling the lion with it would be legit in our hypothetical World Lion-Wrestling Entertainment series.

glee
10-10-2007, 12:11 PM
OK, I have no weapons.
But if I have this (http://newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1637), I'm pretty confident I can wear the cat down:

'The suit has proven itself to be virtually indestructible. It has survived two strikes with a 136-kilogramme tree trunk, 18 collisions with a 3-tonne truck at 50 kilometres an hour, and numerous strikes by arrows, bullets, axes and baseball bats.'

Mr. Slant
10-10-2007, 12:26 PM
Actually, the 2001 model of the Ursa (Mark V) suit you link to does have a helmet that a bear COULD rip off.
As such, I wouldn't reccomend it.
You'd want to contact Troy Hurtubise
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Hurtubise
and arrange to get your hands on the current model, the Mark VI. The helmet on it is part of the top half of the suit.

Mr. Slant
10-10-2007, 12:34 PM
Correction:
I was wrong about the name of the current model. My bad.

OneCentStamp
10-10-2007, 12:42 PM
How about a human with no weapons versus a liger* without its skills in magic?













* pretty much my favorite animal

Mr. Slant
10-10-2007, 12:44 PM
How about a liger vs a lloigor?

Lemur866
10-10-2007, 12:59 PM
Another thing is that if you hit a human in the head, he's pretty much disabled. Our gigantic brain with a eggshell thin skull is incredibly vulnerable.

Now take a look at a tiger skull. Massively thick bones. A punch in the nose or the back of the head isn't going to disable a tiger like it can disable a human. It might make him back off and decide to kill something that doesn't fight back, because tigers don't like fair fights, they like sure things. Not even Chuck Norris can punch a tiger in the head hard enough to disable it.

If you've got a dog, feel around your dog's head sometime. Their head is much less vulnerable than yours. Thick bone, small non-sloshable brain, and the jaw muscles wrap all the way around the skull and connect to a giant ridge on the top of the skull. A blow to the head that would kill a human can be shrugged off by a dog or cat, or heck, most animals. Our gigantic and vulnerable heads are the equivalent of the abdomens of honeypot ants, and I bet honeypot ant message boards are full of ants posting that in a honeypot ant vs beetle fight, you just give the beetle a nip on the soft engorged abdomen and he's done for.

sturmhauke
10-10-2007, 02:44 PM
Why do these debates always exclude the use of improvised weapons? Disallowing A-10 ground attack aircraft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-10_Thunderbolt_II) is one thing, but you don't really think a caveman without a spear would try to wrestle a lion, do you? He'd try to find a rock or big stick, or try to lead it over a cliff or something.

Lemur866
10-10-2007, 03:50 PM
Well, if the human can try to trick the lion over a cliff, then why can't the lion crouch behind some bushes and jump on the human when the human's back is turned?

Either we're talking a Roman Colosseum style matchup, or we're not.

Of course a Masai hunter could fashion a weapon in short order and track and maybe kill a lion, even if dumped naked in the middle of the Serengeti. My mom, not so much.

In the real world, big cats would be extinct if humans decided to exterminate them instead of protecting them. But also in the real world big cat attacks on humans aren't Thunderdome style matchups where two mammals enter, one mammal leaves. Instead it's a big cat sneaking up on a human, armed or unarmed, and jumping them before the human has a chance to react. Or people who stick their hands in a tiger cage and then have the nerve to look surprised when they pull back a bloody stump.

OneCentStamp
10-10-2007, 03:59 PM
Not even Chuck Norris can punch a tiger in the head hard enough to disable it.[urgent whisper] Shhhh! Dude, he's gonna HEAR YOU. [/uw] :eek:

Elendil's Heir
10-10-2007, 04:28 PM
I agree - if you have the chance to confound or startle it...


I don't think Confuse-A-Cat Ltd. could get to you fast enough to help.

Elendil's Heir
10-10-2007, 04:29 PM
...Sure, give me an A-10 Warthog and I'll hunt T-Rex all day, with occasional breaks for fuel and ammo.

Now, that's the story Ray Bradbury should have written!

muldoonthief
10-10-2007, 04:54 PM
Sure, give me an A-10 Warthog and I'll hunt T-Rex all day, with occasional breaks for fuel and ammo.

Not these T-Rexes! (http://sdowner.deviantart.com/art/Calvin-and-Hobbes-Dino-Strip-14222868)

Elendil's Heir
10-10-2007, 05:49 PM
Heh. I love the goggles on the T-Rexes. :cool:

Belrix
10-10-2007, 06:01 PM
What if you did something like jam your fist down its throat? Do you think it would asphyxiate before it could gnaw your arm off?

Semi-serious on this...

Mr. Slant
10-10-2007, 06:20 PM
That has, in the past, worked with smaller cats.
I'm going to say a lion could probably dislodge your arm pretty quickly due to its size and strength.

Lust4Life
10-14-2007, 07:58 AM
Pfffft, big deal. It's a herbivore.


Best bet vs. a lion? Make yourself look big.

What tell the lion that you've had loads of women and that you own a Porsche?

Mr. Slant
10-14-2007, 08:28 AM
Not unless you told it you had a prepared Batman in the Porsche.

OneCentStamp
10-14-2007, 12:53 PM
What tell the lion that you've had loads of women and that you own a Porsche?I'd throw in an oblique reference to Harvard, just to be safe.

Lust4Life
10-14-2007, 12:57 PM
Reminds me of the two blokes who become aware that they're being stalked by a leopard .

One man starts running and his mate shouts out "Your wasting your time, you cant outpace a leopard"

The running man shouts back "I dont have to, Ionly have to outpace you"

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