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View Full Version : What would happen if Western terrorists bombed Mecca?


bump
12-06-2007, 09:26 PM
I got to wondering what might happen if say, someone's spouse or child gets killed by Muslims in some way, and the surviving spouse or parent goes off the deep end and proceeds to somehow blow up a great deal of the Grand Mosque in Mecca during the Hajj.

What might happen? How would things play out? What would various governments do? What would public opinion in different places be?

The Flying Dutchman
12-06-2007, 10:01 PM
You have a great imagination ! Mobilizing millions of hot headed young muslims to seek revenge against the west

I would be more fearful of Putin covertly planning such an attack.

Hail Ants
12-06-2007, 10:03 PM
Given their reaction to most things (i.e. naming a teddy bear) I'd say that at least several Islamic countries would do no less than declare war on whatever country the westerners were from. And, even if they weren't actually from the US, they'd declare war on America too because they'd blame it on us regardless.

carnivorousplant
12-06-2007, 10:05 PM
Five hundred dollars a barrel oil.

Paul in Qatar
12-06-2007, 11:23 PM
People who ought not would die.

Bryan Ekers
12-07-2007, 12:15 AM
Somehow I see Gene Hackman in the film adaptation.

stolichnaya
12-07-2007, 01:09 AM
As a student of history and terrorism, I'd say it seems clear that their president would become retarded.

MrDibble
12-07-2007, 03:41 AM
It'll be like Paul Atreides' vision from Dune:
A mass of fanatic warriors flooding all of civilization. "They denied us the Hajj!"

or, you know, there'll be a police investigation (maybe by Interpol), and any surviving perpetrators will be tried and probably executed.

It could go either way ;)

Unless, of course, the perpetrator was a Jew. WWIII is what I'd expect then.

Mosier
12-07-2007, 03:52 AM
I would expect WWIII, but it would probably be over really fast. It's not exactly like important Western military/industrial targets are easy for Muslim countries to attack. I can't imagine how frustrated they would feel, being unable to really fight back against the people they blamed for the attack.

I don't know what we'd do in response, though. How far would Western countries go in a major war against Islam? It would be like kicking a growling puppy that's nipping at your heels. It just wouldn't feel right to use a total war strategy and firebomb the living daylights out of them, like the previous world war wound up like.

JohnnieEnigma
12-07-2007, 04:01 AM
I got to wondering what might happen if say, someone's spouse or child gets killed by Muslims in some way, and the surviving spouse or parent goes off the deep end and proceeds to somehow blow up a great deal of the Grand Mosque in Mecca during the Hajj.

What might happen? How would things play out? What would various governments do? What would public opinion in different places be?

geez, what a thought.

for anyone to want that kind of revenge makes them almost as bad as the hypothetical muslims who killed their family which you used as an example.

that's like bombing an abortion clinic... if someone claims to be pro-life than proceeds to bomb a clinic with people in it - it goes against their pro-life belief system. I mean, although aborting a abortionist's life, although ironic (heh), is meant to save unborn lives, it's also wrong... two wrongs don't make a right.

ralph124c
12-07-2007, 06:46 PM
I could see this happening, except that Bin Laden would do it ..and blame it on western terrorists. Al Quedah wants to overthrow the Saudi regime, and it views the saudi royal family as corrupt and evil. What better plan than this? Of course, how would anyone get enough xplosives into Mecca to do serious damage? I understand that security is preety tigh.

mswas
12-07-2007, 06:48 PM
They'd be killed by a Hajji on the outskirts of town.

Lemur866
12-07-2007, 06:59 PM
I would expect WWIII, but it would probably be over really fast. It's not exactly like important Western military/industrial targets are easy for Muslim countries to attack. I can't imagine how frustrated they would feel, being unable to really fight back against the people they blamed for the attack.

I can imagine that most of the fighting would be within Muslim countries themselves. That is, rioting and civil war and mutinies and coups as various mobs demanded that governments "do something" and that "something" proved insufficient. And of course, pogroms where westerners who were still present in those muslim countries were mostly lynched unless they could be evactuated.

mswas
12-07-2007, 07:04 PM
I hate to rain on this parade but the premise is rather ridiculous.

Osama bin Laden and Vladmir Putin have no incentive to blow up the Mosque. What's interesting is how ignorant of Osama bin Laden's motivations and strategy people are when he is quite explicit and lays it out very plainly in his videos. This would not work toward his goal. His stated goal is to get America into a state of panic so that we spend lots of money on stupid projects and it hurts our economy.

From what I understand one has to have a recommendation from a Muslim Cleric in order to get the Saudi Government to sanction one's trip to Mecca. Access is strictly controlled. Once in Saudi Arabia, one would have to acquire the explosives, meaning they'd have to deal with Muslim terrorists who have a vested interest in not seeing the Mosque blown up.

This wouldn't be pulled off by America, because America wants the Saudi Regime in power because they put a check on Wahabi extremism and keep the oil flowing.

I have read arguments that if the Kaaba were successfully destroyed it would cause a crisis of faith in the Muslim world. One of the main arguments for why the Muslims are so pissed off right now is because of the shame that Dhimmi armies march all over Dar al Islam. It is an affront to Islam that we are so powerful in their land. To destroy the object of the Hajj would make them question the Will of Allah as they have been brought to understand it.

It is possible that the Muslim hordes would launch a sort of Crusade against Europe, but it is also possible that there would be a mass apostasy as the destruction is evidence of Allahs lack of protection over the Hajj.

Nuking Mecca is a more likely scenario than a terrorist bombing the Hajj.

Der Trihs
12-07-2007, 07:06 PM
I doubt that much would happen. We are already busy provoking the more reasonable Muslims, and the unreasonable ones can already be provoked by any random incident. The more reasonable ones wouldn't care, since it's obviously the result of a lone nut, and they already have perfectly rational reasons to hate us. The unreasonable ones are just looking for an excuse. If it's not one thing, it'll be another.

There's be a flurry of rhetoric, some speeches by various politicians and religious leaders, and that's pretty much it.

Der Trihs
12-07-2007, 07:09 PM
I have read arguments that if the Kaaba were successfully destroyed it would cause a crisis of faith in the Muslim world. One of the main arguments for why the Muslims are so pissed off right now is because of the shame that Dhimmi armies march all over Dar al Islam. It is an affront to Islam that we are so powerful in their land. To destroy the object of the Hajj would make them question the Will of Allah as they have been brought to understand it. I doubt it; it's been destroyed and rebuilt before.

mswas
12-07-2007, 07:13 PM
I doubt it; it's been destroyed and rebuilt before.


The Kaaba has been destroyed? Cite?

Lemur866
12-07-2007, 07:27 PM
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba:

The Kaaba has been repaired and reconstructed many times since Muhammad's day.

Abd-Allah ibn al-Zubayr, an early Muslim who ruled Mecca for many years between the death of Ali ibn Abi Talib and the consolidation of Ummayad power, is said to have demolished the old Kaaba and rebuilt it to include the hatīm, a semi-circular wall now outside the Kaaba. He did so on the basis of a tradition (found in several hadith collections[31]) that the hatīm was a remnant of the foundations of the Abrahamic Kaaba, and that Muhammad himself had wished to rebuild so as to include it.
This structure was destroyed (or partially destroyed) in 683, during the war between al-Zubayr and Umayyad forces commanded by Al-Hajjaj bin Yousef. Al-Hajjaj used stone-throwing catapults against the Meccans. This episode has been depicted by many Muslim chroniclers as a black mark against the Ummayad caliph Yazid I, who ordered the campaign against Mecca. Yazid died in 683, the year his forces attacked the Hijaz.
The Ummayads under Abdul Malik bin Marwan finally reunited all the former Islamic possessions and ended the long civil war (see First Islamic civil war). In 693 he had the remnants of al-Zubayr's Kaaba razed, and rebuilt on the foundations set by the Quraysh.[32] The Kaaba returned to the cube shape it had taken during Muhammad's lifetime.
Apart from repair work, the basic shape and structure of the Kaaba have not changed since then.[33]

Der Trihs
12-07-2007, 07:29 PM
The Kaaba has been destroyed? Cite?As mentioded on Wiki : (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba)

The Kaaba has been repaired and reconstructed many times since Muhammad's day.

* Abd-Allah ibn al-Zubayr, an early Muslim who ruled Mecca for many years between the death of Ali ibn Abi Talib and the consolidation of Ummayad power, is said to have demolished the old Kaaba and rebuilt it to include the hatīm, a semi-circular wall now outside the Kaaba. He did so on the basis of a tradition (found in several hadith collections[31]) that the hatīm was a remnant of the foundations of the Abrahamic Kaaba, and that Muhammad himself had wished to rebuild so as to include it.

* This structure was destroyed (or partially destroyed) in 683, during the war between al-Zubayr and Umayyad forces commanded by Al-Hajjaj bin Yousef. Al-Hajjaj used stone-throwing catapults against the Meccans. This episode has been depicted by many Muslim chroniclers as a black mark against the Ummayad caliph Yazid I, who ordered the campaign against Mecca. Yazid died in 683, the year his forces attacked the Hijaz.

* The Ummayads under Abdul Malik bin Marwan finally reunited all the former Islamic possessions and ended the long civil war (see First Islamic civil war). In 693 he had the remnants of al-Zubayr's Kaaba razed, and rebuilt on the foundations set by the Quraysh.[32] The Kaaba returned to the cube shape it had taken during Muhammad's lifetime. Or just google "Kaaba" and "Destroyed" for a host of cites. It's not some secret.



Edit : Beaten to the punch !

mswas
12-07-2007, 08:08 PM
Thanks.

carnivorousplant
12-07-2007, 08:11 PM
What is the significance of the black stone?

Bryan Ekers
12-07-2007, 08:14 PM
Thanks.

Darn, you edited just as I was preparing a Civilization-related joke.

mswas
12-07-2007, 08:15 PM
Darn, you edited just as I was preparing a Civilization-related joke.


Sorry, I felt like I was hijacking the thread. ;)

begbert2
12-07-2007, 08:19 PM
So, no major crisis of faith. I bet they'd still be pretty pissed though.

Ludovic
12-07-2007, 08:51 PM
There wouldn't be any retaliation against Western countries, because Islam is a religion of peace.

Mosier
12-07-2007, 08:54 PM
People's religious symbols getting blown up doesn't typically result in them sitting down and thinking "hmm, maybe I've been wrong this whole time." There wouldn't be a crisis of faith, there would be a renewed fervor in it.

kitemaker_chuck
12-07-2007, 08:58 PM
Have there been cases where even rumors of attacks on Mecca resulted in retaliation against non-Muslims?

carnivorousplant
12-07-2007, 08:59 PM
So, anyone want to blow up Christ of the Ozarks? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_of_the_Ozarks)


:)

mswas
12-08-2007, 12:02 AM
People's religious symbols getting blown up doesn't typically result in them sitting down and thinking "hmm, maybe I've been wrong this whole time." There wouldn't be a crisis of faith, there would be a renewed fervor in it.

Actually historically the Jews would cut off the heads of idols when conquering their enemies. It is a sign that one person's God can beat up the other person's God. Like I said, I didn't want to hijack the thread anymore. I find the notion of a terrorist making it into the Hajj preposterous. It is more realistic to imagine us Nuking Mecca IMO. If we nuked it in such a way as to scatter the shards of the Kaaba to where it couldn't be repaired, that would be a little different than a catapult cracking it, but that's another matter for another thread.

Bryan Ekers
12-08-2007, 01:00 AM
I find the notion of a terrorist making it into the Hajj preposterous.
Really? I think a sufficiently determined group could pull it off. Further, I think if anyone actually staged such an attack, it wouldn't be a bereaved Westerner or a provocation-seeking Russian but a Muslim angry at other Muslims.

Testy
12-08-2007, 01:54 AM
Really? I think a sufficiently determined group could pull it off. Further, I think if anyone actually staged such an attack, it wouldn't be a bereaved Westerner or a provocation-seeking Russian but a Muslim angry at other Muslims.

Brian Ekers
There are rumors of an incident 20+ years ago where a lot of Iranian Hajjis got into Mecca and tried to take over the religious sites. Supposedly they had some initial success. I'm not sure what happened but they weren't trying to destroy anything and were promptly arrested, shot, or whatever.
As an aside, I knew a Brit who claimed to have driven through Mecca one night. The guy was actually lost and the guards at the checkpoint were sleepy and just waved him through. He had some issues when he tried to leave but the guards really didn't want the hassle and told him to just go away and shut up.

Regards

Testy

Uzi
12-08-2007, 02:33 AM
Really? I think a sufficiently determined group could pull it off.

I agree, a duplication of what the 9-11 hijackers pulled would probably work fine. From my experience, airports in this region don't take security nearly as serious as other places, so I don't think it would be hard to smuggle items far more dangerous than box cutters on board.

Johanna
12-08-2007, 03:38 AM
the shame that Dhimmi armies march all over Dar al Islam.
By definition, there can be no such thing as a "dhimmi army." Dhimmi isn't a general synonym for 'non-Muslim', it means certain specific non-Muslim populations of some religions under Islamic rule who are bound by a covenant (dhimmah) which prescribes certain limitations on them-- including no bearing of arms. The word you're looking for is harbi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_the_world_in_Islam#Dar_al-Harb), which is in fact the antonym of dhimmi.

chowder
12-08-2007, 12:27 PM
There wouldn't be any retaliation against Western countries, because Islam is a religion of peace.
Really :dubious:

Menocchio
12-08-2007, 09:04 PM
Pro-Western Islamic Governments would be in deep shit. That's what would happen.

The House of Saud would almost certainly be overthrown. A great deal of their regime's legitimacy is wrapped up in their role as protectors of the Hajj. Add that failure to their cozy relations with the US, and they'd be much chaos in Saudi Arabia.

Which means we'd better start riding bikes to work.

Over in Pakistan, Musharaff would also be in trouble. He'd be more able to handle it, I think, especially since western powers would give him all the help he wants in keeping his nukes out of the hands of angry religious rebels.

Turkey and Egypt would have to make some angry noises to keep their populations happy.

Lebanon and Palestine would get a bit more stirred up than usual, but Palestine can't really get any more outraged than it already is.

Iran's stance wouldn't change much at all. But the Ayatollahs would become even more popular on a platform of "we fucking told you so".

And the US would be told to get the fuck out of Iraq. NOW. In terms that make it clear to everyone that there's absolutely no chance of getting any cooperation from Iraqis.

But really, overall, once the Pakistani rebels are beaten back, the big thing would be the loss of the Saudi oilfields to sworn enemies of the West, who may not even capture intact the infrastructure needed to pump the stuff.

Sapo
12-08-2007, 10:04 PM
What's security like over there? I mean with all those clothers, inspecting people must be a real chore, and if you don't, you could have pretty much anything hidden in there. And from what I have seen, the volume of people is just too much to even try. How does this work?

Testy
12-09-2007, 02:41 AM
What's security like over there? I mean with all those clothers, inspecting people must be a real chore, and if you don't, you could have pretty much anything hidden in there. And from what I have seen, the volume of people is just too much to even try. How does this work?
Sapo
Security is about the same as everywhere else. Metal detectors work just fine through a thobe. How intensely you get scanned depends on how things are going at the moment. Some days, the foil on a stick of gum will set the thing off, other days it won't. Most days you have to take off your shoes and belt. If you're coming into the country from somewhere else, your luggage gets X-rayed and occasionally gone over by either dope dogs or bomb dogs. In summary, security when entering or leaving is not much different than anywhere else. For Hajj, which is coming up shortly, the airport security people put a lot of additional staff on duty. Jeddah is a bit of a nightmare due to the traffic and I wouldn't go there for worlds while Hajj is going on.

Regards

Testy

Testy
12-09-2007, 02:52 AM
I hate to rain on this parade but the premise is rather ridiculous.
<SNIP>
From what I understand one has to have a recommendation from a Muslim Cleric in order to get the Saudi Government to sanction one's trip to Mecca. Access is strictly controlled. Once in Saudi Arabia, one would have to acquire the explosives, meaning they'd have to deal with Muslim terrorists who have a vested interest in not seeing the Mosque blown up.


mswas
I agree. Bombing the Hajj would be one of those things where nobody wins. What's the incentive to do something like this?

Access to Mecca is controlled when someone is flying in for this purpose. There are quotas for each country and a lot of negotiation goes on every year over what the number should be. I think the bit you mentio about needing a Muslim cleric to vouch for you is applicable if you're coming in from overseas somewhere. People in Saudi tend to go quite frequently for what's called Umra in addition to the Hajj. Don't ask me too much more about Umra because it's not something I really know that much about.
If you're living in Saudi you get an Iqama (resident's permit) that is green if you are Muslim or brown if you're something else. Those with a green Igama can go most any time they like. There are outfits like religious tour organizers that will take you there and generally support you while you take care of your religious duties.

Regards

Testy

Sapo
12-09-2007, 05:59 AM
Sapo
Security is about the same as everywhere else. Metal detectors work just fine through a thobe. How intensely you get scanned depends on how things are going at the moment. Some days, the foil on a stick of gum will set the thing off, other days it won't. Most days you have to take off your shoes and belt. If you're coming into the country from somewhere else, your luggage gets X-rayed and occasionally gone over by either dope dogs or bomb dogs. In summary, security when entering or leaving is not much different than anywhere else. For Hajj, which is coming up shortly, the airport security people put a lot of additional staff on duty. Jeddah is a bit of a nightmare due to the traffic and I wouldn't go there for worlds while Hajj is going on.

Regards

Testy
Thanks for the response. I am more curious about the holy sites themselves, though. In videos you see this stream of people circling around with no interruptions. Is there any kind of security at the site itself?

Testy
12-09-2007, 06:24 AM
Thanks for the response. I am more curious about the holy sites themselves, though. In videos you see this stream of people circling around with no interruptions. Is there any kind of security at the site itself?

Sapo
Nothing automated. There are one hell of a lot of guards though. The guards tend to do more crowd-control, and emergency response than checking for bad guys. They do not let just anyone wander into the sites without some kind of ID. As an oh-by-the-way, the official Hajjis circling the box usually wear a robe of sorts made of toweling. I guess you could conceal something small under it but anything larger than a small pistol or the like would probably show up. Also, the crowds are amazing, people bumping into you and things like that. People have been knocked from their feet and trampled on occasion. According to a Saudi friend of mine, the African Hajjis are the worst as they link arms for the march and tend to be large people. I don't think you could get anything substantial into the area. Getting something into just the city would probably be no more difficult than other cities if you had the right ID.

Hope that was what you wanted.

Testy

Sapo
12-09-2007, 08:24 AM
ignorance fought. Thanks.

alphaboi867
12-09-2007, 04:50 PM
Sapo
Security is about the same as everywhere else. Metal detectors work just fine through a thobe...

Are women subject to the same level of screening as men (by female guards of course)?

Testy
12-09-2007, 05:36 PM
Are women subject to the same level of screening as men (by female guards of course)?

alphaboi867
In Mecca itself? I really don't know to much about that. There was a recent hassle about women being banished to a subsidiary area for their worship. The women fought back and won, BTW.
In airports and the like, women go through the same metal detectors as anyone else and get wanded in an enclosed area by female guards. Except for the screened area, not that much different than anywhere else.

Regards

Testy

Projammer
12-09-2007, 07:34 PM
What if the destruction were caused by some sort of natural event? I'm not familiar enough with the geology of the area to know if an earthquake would be a viable "act of god", but what about something along the lines of the Tunguska Event (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event)?

In theory we would know for some time in advance that a big rock was coming our way and someone would work out the point of impact more than a few days before it happened.

What sort of crisis of faith and response would that provoke?

Apologies for the slight hijack. I'll start a new thread if need be.

Johanna
12-09-2007, 10:06 PM
As an oh-by-the-way, the official Hajjis circling the box usually wear a robe of sorts made of toweling. I guess you could conceal something small under it but anything larger than a small pistol or the like would probably show up.Except that women Hajjis wear regular clothes (often quite voluminous).

a green IgamaGot one for you right here (http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/animals/images/1024/green-iguana.jpg).

Uzi
12-09-2007, 10:10 PM
SapoThey do not let just anyone wander into the sites without some kind of ID.

In the main airports security is better, but the small regional airports there are people wandering all over the place. If you sit in the waiting area you see a constant stream of people going back and forth through the metal detector with no one stopping them. The continuous beeping gets quite annoying after a while. So, it really depends which airport you are in and which country that is in. From what I've seen it wouldn't take much to smuggle assault rifles on board, let alone box cutters.

Testy
12-09-2007, 11:42 PM
In the main airports security is better, but the small regional airports there are people wandering all over the place. If you sit in the waiting area you see a constant stream of people going back and forth through the metal detector with no one stopping them. The continuous beeping gets quite annoying after a while. So, it really depends which airport you are in and which country that is in. From what I've seen it wouldn't take much to smuggle assault rifles on board, let alone box cutters.

Uzi

True enough, and not just here, either. Last summer I was entering a controlled area and remembered a large pocket knife I was carrying. I put it in a backpack and left it in the car. Several weeks later I went on leave and was trying to find the knife but couldn't. I figured I must have dropped it out and lost it. I flew from Riyadh to Abu Dhabi to Bangkok and then to a smaller city in Thailand. On the way back home they stopped me in Bkk and asked me about the knife. :smack: No one had noticed it prior to that.

Regards

Testy

Testy
12-09-2007, 11:44 PM
What if the destruction were caused by some sort of natural event? I'm not familiar enough with the geology of the area to know if an earthquake would be a viable "act of god", but what about something along the lines of the Tunguska Event (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event)?

In theory we would know for some time in advance that a big rock was coming our way and someone would work out the point of impact more than a few days before it happened.

What sort of crisis of faith and response would that provoke?

Apologies for the slight hijack. I'll start a new thread if need be.

Projammer

Well, it's suspected of being a meteorite anyway so maybe there'd just be a new stone.

Testy

Testy
12-09-2007, 11:45 PM
Except that women Hajjis wear regular clothes (often quite voluminous).

Got one for you right here (http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/animals/images/1024/green-iguana.jpg).

Johanna

Thanks for that! :p

Regards

Testy

nd_n8
12-10-2007, 06:28 PM
Somehow I see Gene Hackman in the film adaptation.Oh yeah, and Will Smith, gotta have Will Smith.

Der Trihs
12-10-2007, 06:36 PM
What if the destruction were caused by some sort of natural event? I'm not familiar enough with the geology of the area to know if an earthquake would be a viable "act of god", but what about something along the lines of the Tunguska Event (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event)?

In theory we would know for some time in advance that a big rock was coming our way and someone would work out the point of impact more than a few days before it happened.

What sort of crisis of faith and response would that provoke?Perhaps they would claim that we diverted the asteroid into Mecca for our own nefarious purposes ?

Gymnopithys
12-11-2007, 03:32 AM
What would happen if Western terrorists bombed Mecca?

Has anybody considered that the world would be swarming with terrorists intent on destroying churches, synagogues and other non-islamic religious symbols ?

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