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fessie
04-07-2008, 01:38 PM
yesterday and now the engine light is on! AAAAACK!

It was only about 4 gallons' worth. I've since filled it up with Shell's lowest octane.

I'm afraid to go to the dealer and confess my sins, since I've probably just voided the warranty.

NOT my best moment.

OTOH, my husband dropped my garage door opener into my cup of tea, and now it's dead.

We're techno-challenged at Chez Fessie.

TheLoadedDog
04-07-2008, 01:56 PM
I'm not Rick or any of the other mechanics, but until they come along, I hope I will do.

I don't think you've done much harm to your car. You've probably just freaked out the engine monitoring system because it's noticed a loss of efficiency. Now if you'd put normal gas into an engine designed for E85 (ie. done the opposite), you might have a problem. But in your case, I think it's ok.

I'd wait for confirmation from one of our mechanic dopers before I visit the dealer, if I were you. It might transpire that you haven't hurt the car, but they will use it as an excuse to screw you out of your warranty anyway.

fessie
04-07-2008, 02:01 PM
:::biting nails::: Thank you so much!

It's riding just fine. Not that I'm going to take it on the highway right now or anything.

Telperien
04-07-2008, 02:02 PM
Never mind. I left my reading comprehension in my other brain.

fessie
04-07-2008, 02:03 PM
Only noticed it for the first time at this one particular station. We're in Corn Country out here.

I'd never heard of it before - just got excited by that $2.77 price tag.

Santo Rugger
04-07-2008, 02:15 PM
Could have been worse, you could have put diesel (http://boards.academicpursuits.us/sdmb/showthread.php?t=461625) in instead!

3waygeek
04-07-2008, 02:50 PM
Note that the E85 may loosen some of the crap (rust, dirt, etc.) in your fuel system, especially if you have an older car, and burn straight gasoline (as opposed to gasohol) on a regular basis. Replacing the fuel filter may not be such a bad idea -- they're cheap and usually easy to change.

Really Not All That Bright
04-07-2008, 02:56 PM
Note that the E85 may loosen some of the crap (rust, dirt, etc.) in your fuel system, especially if you have an older car, and burn straight gasoline (as opposed to gasohol) on a regular basis. Replacing the fuel filter may not be such a bad idea -- they're cheap and usually easy to change.
Since it's still under warranty, I imagine it doesn't have many miles on it. Honda's powertrain warranty is 60k miles in the US.

Amblydoper
04-07-2008, 02:58 PM
We discussed this issue before, here at the Dope, and The consensus is that filling your tank with E85 once, will not do any damage to your engine. Doing it often will cause problems. Here in Denver, you get some Ethanol with every fill up any way.

As for the reverse, putting regular gas into the tank of a car designed for E85? Well, they call it a "flex-fuel" vehicle for a reason. They allow flexible fuel mixtures, ranging from 0% ethanol (pure gasoline to 85% ethanol (E85).

fessie
04-07-2008, 03:01 PM
Thank you! :cool:

E-Sabbath
04-07-2008, 03:15 PM
If you havn't burnt it all, you _might_ want to siphon it out and pour a few gallons of the good stuff in.

TheLoadedDog
04-07-2008, 03:43 PM
As for the reverse, putting regular gas into the tank of a car designed for E85? Well, they call it a "flex-fuel" vehicle for a reason. They allow flexible fuel mixtures, ranging from 0% ethanol (pure gasoline to 85% ethanol (E85).

Aah, OK. I was under the impression that you'd get detonation and all sorts of nasty stuff.

Really Not All That Bright
04-07-2008, 03:50 PM
Aah, OK. I was under the impression that you'd get detonation and all sorts of nasty stuff.
Well, you would if you put petrol/gasoline in an ethanol-only car, (like the ones used in Brazil).

Solfy
04-07-2008, 04:10 PM
I judged a science fair yesterday where a student studied the long term effects of E85 on various types of fuel lines (they softened, eventually). It was a great project, even though I think his dad did most of it (by his own admission on the poster board). This was a 6th grader! Dopers, there is hope for the next generation. Maybe.

Thanks to the wonders of the internet, I found this (http://iowarfa.org/PDF/E85_values_fund/E85%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf) (pdf):
"What happens if I accidentally fuel my gasoline-powered vehicle with E85?
According to the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition, no problems should occur if you mistakenly fuel once with E85. The “check engine light” may appear due to the higher oxygen content in E85. Long-term use of E85 in gasoline-only vehicles may cause damage because of the incompatibility of high-ethanol blends with parts in gasoline-only engines. Alcohol fuels can be more corrosive than gasoline. Therefore, fuel system parts have been upgraded to be ethanol-compatible. Also, improper use of E85 may compromise performance and emissions. For instructions on how to read a vehicle identification number to determine if your vehicle is E85 compatible, go to e85fuel.com/information/vin.php"

Joey P
04-08-2008, 08:13 AM
If you havn't burnt it all, you _might_ want to siphon it out and pour a few gallons of the good stuff in.
Based on replies in this thread, I think it would be easier to make sure the tank stays full for a while with regular gas to keep the E85 going to a lower and lower dilution.

Musicat
04-08-2008, 08:39 AM
Anyone know if putting an ethanol mixture in a 50cc moped-class 2-stroke scooter will do anything good or bad? I hesitate to try it, but I am curious. I think one local station has a 15% mixture.

fessie
04-08-2008, 09:11 AM
Based on replies in this thread, I think it would be easier to make sure the tank stays full for a while with regular gas to keep the E85 going to a lower and lower dilution.

That's what I was thinking, too.

Thanks for everyone's helpful replies!

ZebraShaSha
04-08-2008, 10:46 AM
To get rid of the check engine light, take the leads off the battery and let your car sit for, oh, I don't know, 10 minutes or so. Check engine lights usually have nothing to do with the engine going tits up, it's mostly a system that warns about inefficiency, oxygen sensors, emissions, timing being off, etc. It doesn't mean "OH NO WE'RE ALL GOING TO CRASH", even though that's what I feel like every time I see one.

Sophistry and Illusion
04-08-2008, 11:00 AM
To get rid of the check engine light, take the leads off the battery and let your car sit for, oh, I don't know, 10 minutes or so. Check engine lights usually have nothing to do with the engine going tits up, it's mostly a system that warns about inefficiency, oxygen sensors, emissions, timing being off, etc. It doesn't mean "OH NO WE'RE ALL GOING TO CRASH", even though that's what I feel like every time I see one.
Another way to make a warning light go away (as practiced by one of my wife's college classmates on the new Volvo her daddy just bought her) is to put a bandaid over it. Apparently, the oil light was 'bugging' her with its constant irritating glow. Not surprisingly, the engine eventually seized up due to lack of oil.

Figaro
04-08-2008, 11:08 AM
...going tits up....I hereby vow to use this expression at least once a day from now on. :cool:

fessie
04-08-2008, 11:58 AM
Hey, it's my lucky day!

Check Engine light -- off!

Garage door opener -- working!

Time to buy a lottery ticket :D

Madd Maxx
04-08-2008, 02:53 PM
Hey, it's my lucky day!

Check Engine light -- off!

Garage door opener -- working!

Time to buy a lottery ticket :D

Nope. Shoulda bought one earlier. Now all your luck is used up. :D

captainhurt
02-04-2013, 11:03 PM
your car will run ok! all cars after 1998 were designed for ethanol.
ethanol runs cooler, cleaner, FAR less toxic.
others fail to tell you that "gasoline" holds water bigtime and corrodes bigtime, and creates bigtime junk deposits throughout your engine. ethanol doesnt.
sites exist with REAL e85 users experiences with real cars, not a bunch of heresay pundits, not a bunch of theory, not a bunch of propoganda from bigoil.

Ferret Herder
02-04-2013, 11:23 PM
your car will run ok! all cars after 1998 were designed for ethanol.
ethanol runs cooler, cleaner, FAR less toxic.
others fail to tell you that "gasoline" holds water bigtime and corrodes bigtime, and creates bigtime junk deposits throughout your engine. ethanol doesnt.
sites exist with REAL e85 users experiences with real cars, not a bunch of heresay pundits, not a bunch of theory, not a bunch of propoganda from bigoil.
She might have found your advice more handy 5 years ago when she had the accidental fueling. Check the dates.

Chimera
02-04-2013, 11:24 PM
I don't recall any fearmongers in this thread. Everyone said it was fine.

toofs
02-04-2013, 11:39 PM
your car will run ok! all cars after 1998 were designed for ethanol.
ethanol runs cooler, cleaner, FAR less toxic.
others fail to tell you that "gasoline" holds water bigtime and corrodes bigtime, and creates bigtime junk deposits throughout your engine. ethanol doesnt.
sites exist with REAL e85 users experiences with real cars, not a bunch of heresay pundits, not a bunch of theory, not a bunch of propoganda from bigoil.

So, propaganda from bigethanol instead? Where were you guys five years ago?

cochrane
02-05-2013, 02:56 AM
The only fearmongers I hear are the ones running from the zombies. :D

Musicat
02-05-2013, 08:56 AM
Anyone know if putting an ethanol mixture in a 50cc moped-class 2-stroke scooter will do anything good or bad? I hesitate to try it, but I am curious. I think one local station has a 15% mixture.Five years and no one can answer my question?

jz78817
02-05-2013, 09:22 AM
Five years and no one can answer my question?

I've heard (anecdotally) from small-engine equipment vendors/shops that small engine fuel systems can't handle ethanol very well. Newer engines might be better, but I've seen on old outboards and lawnmower engines that even regular use of E10 can accelerate the wear on the needle valve causing over-rich operation and/or flooding.

your car will run ok! all cars after 1998 were designed for ethanol.
ethanol runs cooler, cleaner, FAR less toxic.
others fail to tell you that "gasoline" holds water bigtime and corrodes bigtime, and creates bigtime junk deposits throughout your engine. ethanol doesnt.
sites exist with REAL e85 users experiences with real cars, not a bunch of heresay pundits, not a bunch of theory, not a bunch of propoganda from bigoil.

no. E85/flex fuel capability is far more than just material compatibility. it's PCM calibration (a non-flex-fuel car can't use E85 or else it'll put the check engine light on 'cos it's detecting a persistent lean condition) and port/combustion chamber design. You can't just dump E85 into any old car and expect it to work fine.

captainhurt
02-05-2013, 11:50 AM
http://forum.chryslerminivan.net/showthread.php/3724-Using-E85-in-a-non-flex-fuel-vehicle
"05-19-2006 01:09 PM #1 Hokiefyd
Certified Minivan Freak

Join Date
Jan 2005
Location
Fayetteville, NC
Posts
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Country: Thanks
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Thanked 66 Times in 50 Posts

Using E85 in a non-flex fuel vehicle
This was an email to the NEVC (National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition):

Filler Er Up with E85!

Hello,

For the past 5 to 8 years, regardless of what kind of vehicle I am driving, I almost always fill up with E85. None of these vehicles were or are E85 equipped. I always start out with E10 and gradually add E85 into each tank, until I am all E85. Presently, I am running E85 in my 1992 Ford F 150 Pick Up Truck, 100,000 miles, 5.8 V8, and my non-E85 equipped, 2006 Dodge Gr. Caravan SXT, 10,000 miles, 3.8 V6.

I have heard all the stories, like your gas tank will rust through, your carbonator may blow up, blah, blah, blah.

I had a 1994 Dodge Grand Caravan, 3.3 V6, and I ran E85 from 50,000 miles to 138,000 miles, at which time I sold the van, only because it was getting rusty, and we needed a larger vehicle.

I would fill up with E85 even more often but there are only two or three stations in Lincoln, Nebraska that provide E85, making it a trip across town.

I thought I would pass this along. I have not had trouble, ever, with any vehicle and E85, (equipped for E85 or not equipped for E85).

Recently, I have switched to 100% synthetic motor oil, so basically, my cars are almost foreign oil free.

Thank you for all you do. Regards,
Andy Stebbing
Lincoln, NE

NEVC note: The NEVC does not endorse fueling a non-FFV with E85.
'11 Toyota Camry | 2.5/6AT | Sandy Beach
'07 Chrysler T&C | 3.8/4AT | Cognac Crystal
'05 Acura MDX | 3.5/5AT | Billet Silver
'97 Dodge Dakota | 5.2/4AT | Emerald Green"

Really Not All That Bright
02-05-2013, 12:21 PM
Actually, that's pretty much the definition of hearsay.

In any event, you will find that people on these boards are much more interested in empirical data than "communicated real world" like "I put E85 in my van and it hasn't blown up yet, so there!" Bonus points for having a van with a "carbonator", though.

jz78817
02-05-2013, 12:36 PM
here's an example of communicated real-world,not heresay and theory...

that is an anecdote. This guy has NO IDEA what is going on with his cars other than there aren't any warning lights on. His anecdotes are worthless.

captainhurt
02-05-2013, 12:46 PM
empirical...real world...exactly!

empirical = " Relying on or derived from observation or experiment:"
so dont listen to a bunch of "theoretically, this willl happen", nor "i'm an expert, so trust me".
just google "Using-E85-in-a-non-flex-fuel-vehicle" also can substitute "ffv"
judge for yourself...dont automatically "trust" anybody (including me)

here's more empirical data in nice video:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=HuOs1yap8mU

here's a list of people who have shared their successful experiences with "e-85 in non-ffvs" .
http://nonffvrunninge85.blogspot.com/
i would add, "me too". :-D

cooler, cleaner, FAR less toxic. BAM! add this: drive only when necessary, combine trips. that way fewer people will DIE and get paralyzed. Cars kill over 1 million humans per year, and more animals.

captainhurt
02-05-2013, 01:31 PM
its amazing how the exhaust doesnt smell nasty since using e-85. no chance of CO poisoning. Thats cuz ethanol results in far less toxic exhaust!

engineer_comp_geek
02-05-2013, 02:22 PM
captainhurt's obviously pro-ethanol stance aside, there are plenty of reasons not to use E-85.

First of all, a gallon of ethanol contains only 76,100 BTU of energy, compared to 114,100 BTU for a gallon of gasoline. So while E-85 costs a lot less, you get a lot less energy out of it. If I did my math right, that works out to 81800 BTU/gal for E-85. In other words, E-85 only has 72% as much energy in it as gasoline. Assuming that your engine can burn either fuel equally efficiently, you can expect your mileage to drop 28% just by switching from gasoline to E-85 (probably closer to 25% in areas that already have some ethanol in gasoline).

So E-85 is going to make your MPG drop significantly and will also significantly reduce the range of your vehicle, requiring you to fill up more often. But, E-85 is also cheaper than gasoline. The important question though is whether the reduced cost of E-85 is greater than the reduced MPG of E-85, because if you can get E-85 cheap enough then your cost per mile is actually better even though the energy content per gallon is worse.

So, let's look at prices. Using some numbers from google, in my area they seem to be selling gasoline for $3.69 per gallon. The break even point at which E-85 costs exactly the same per mile as gasoline would therefore be about 75% of that, or $2.76 per gallon. However, they are selling E-85 at $3.38 per gallon. That means that even though the cost per gallon is cheaper, you'll spend more money per mile using E-85. Thanks, but I don't really want to spend more on fuel to go the same distance. That's just foolish.

Every time I personally have done this calculation it has worked out the same. The cost per mile is always worse for E-85. I've only done it a few times though and only for my area, so YMMV. I haven't checked prices nationwide. There may be areas where E-85 is economical. For your area, take the cost per gallon of gasoline and multiply it by 0.75. If the cost of E-85 is less than that, then go ahead and switch. Otherwise, don't. You are wasting money.

The second issue is long term damage to your vehicle. In the short term, doing something like the OP did five years ago isn't going to do any appreciable harm. In the long term though, using that high of an alcohol content in vehicles that aren't designed for it causes corrosion problems all throughout the fuel system. Some of this depends on your exact vehicle,but alcohol corrodes certain types of rubbers and other materials that are not affected by gasoline. If your car's manufacturer says that the car can safely run E-85, then there's no problem. If not, then using E-85 could cause damage to your vehicle.

I can't find a cite one way or the other for captainhurt's assertion that all cars after 1999 are designed for ethanol, but I don't believe that it is true. All reasonably modern cars should be able to handle lower concentrations of ethanol such as the E10 and E15 that are common these days, but that doesn't mean that they can handle higher concentrations above say E50 or so.

Even if your car's engine won't be damaged by E-85, the cost alone makes it a poor choice. Fuel vendors seem to be taking advantage of the lower cost per gallon and the inability of the average consumer to do basic math and figure out the cost per mile, which is what really matters.

engineer_comp_geek
02-05-2013, 02:29 PM
I've heard (anecdotally) from small-engine equipment vendors/shops that small engine fuel systems can't handle ethanol very well. Newer engines might be better, but I've seen on old outboards and lawnmower engines that even regular use of E10 can accelerate the wear on the needle valve causing over-rich operation and/or flooding.

I've heard the same thing, but again it's just anecdotal. I don't have any hard data.

I have also heard that blended fuels aren't as stable in the long term, so for something that sits for a long time (like a lawnmower in the off-season) you can have serious problems with fuel degradation. In my area (southeastern PA) I don't bother to drain my lawnmower at the end of the season, although I don't leave it full either. With maybe a quarter tank of stale E10 gasoline and three quarters of fresh the mower always starts. I haven't had any problems with corrosion in my lawnmowers or snow blower either. YMMV.

captainhurt
02-05-2013, 03:29 PM
now guys (that includes those with hi-sounding titles in their id designed to impress :P ) to make a fair FEAR assessment: now that several id's post statements of dire consequences and fear....let's devote some time to the KNOWN problems with using "gasoline" in automobiles...and extend those to hundreds of millions of cars i mean aside from the buried gas tanks and oil spills and deadly smog. Anybody? Bueller? :)
Frankly i have no interest whatsoever in 100 yr old standard "engines" (ICE). Electric motors are far more efficient, never break down, and dont require all the auto's toxic "FLUIDS", pumps and other toxic crap that LEAK everywhere. best of all electric vehicles are FAR SIMPLER STRUCTURE/DESIGN. that should give folks a start.

here's some links for those interested in e-85:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=HuOs1yap8mU
http://forum.chryslerminivan.net/sho...x-fuel-vehicle
http://nonffvrunninge85.blogspot.com/

Ellen Cherry
02-05-2013, 04:35 PM
captainhurt, welcome to the Straight Dope. As was noted above, your posts on this topic revived a nearly five-year-old thread, so you are responding to a discussion that happened that long ago.

We'd like to welcome you as a new member, but if you've signed up here as a result of a search on this topic in order to further an agenda, you'll find that we don't welcome spammers. Please back off on the attitude and we'll all get along a lot better. (FYI: engineer_comp_geek has been here, using his name here since 2001, and you might do well to be less dismissive of his expertise.)

Ellen Cherry, moderator
Academic Pursuits Message Board

MikeG
02-05-2013, 04:47 PM
Re: small engines, i have first hand experience with the damage ethanol does to the o rings and other rubber parts of motorcycle engines. Goldwings, GS750, Honda scooters, all had significant degradation until I put in Viton rings and seals. I'd gladly pay for 100 gasoline but I have to drive to Indiana to get it.

Musicat
02-05-2013, 04:51 PM
I've heard (anecdotally) from small-engine equipment vendors/shops that small engine fuel systems can't handle ethanol very well. Newer engines might be better, but I've seen on old outboards and lawnmower engines that even regular use of E10 can accelerate the wear on the needle valve causing over-rich operation and/or flooding.

E85/flex fuel capability is far more than just material compatibility. it's PCM calibration (a non-flex-fuel car can't use E85 or else it'll put the check engine light on 'cos it's detecting a persistent lean condition) and port/combustion chamber design. You can't just dump E85 into any old car and expect it to work fine.None of what you say seems to match my experience. I fuel my snowblower and lawnmower (a really old model), a 1985 Toyota and a 1985 Yamaha scooter, all with the only fuel I can get locally, supposedly 15% Ethanol. Haven't had any problems that I could blame on it, and my "check engine" light doesn't come on.

jz78817
02-05-2013, 06:10 PM
None of what you say seems to match my experience. I fuel my snowblower and lawnmower (a really old model), a 1985 Toyota and a 1985 Yamaha scooter, all with the only fuel I can get locally, supposedly 15% Ethanol. Haven't had any problems that I could blame on it, and my "check engine" light doesn't come on.

1) I said it was anecdotal, and this came from equipment vendors saying they were rebuilding carburetors more frequently than in the past once E10 became widespread.

2) The only one of the things you mention that would likely have a relevant "check engine" light is the Toyota, and I'm not so sure a 1985 would monitor emissions that closely to light it when E85 was in use.

I have also heard that blended fuels aren't as stable in the long term, so for something that sits for a long time (like a lawnmower in the off-season) you can have serious problems with fuel degradation. In my area (southeastern PA) I don't bother to drain my lawnmower at the end of the season, although I don't leave it full either. With maybe a quarter tank of stale E10 gasoline and three quarters of fresh the mower always starts. I haven't had any problems with corrosion in my lawnmowers or snow blower either. YMMV.

the problem with ethanol is its affinity for water (i.e. hygroscopic.) low blends like E10 usually aren't problematic, but E85 is another kettle of fish. R/C glow engine fuels are roughly 60-90% methanol which like ethanol is hygroscopic, and they go off within weeks if not kept in tightly sealed containers.

Electric motors are far more efficient, never break down, and dont require all the auto's toxic "FLUIDS", pumps and other toxic crap that LEAK everywhere. best of all electric vehicles are FAR SIMPLER STRUCTURE/DESIGN. that should give folks a start.

when half the weight of your car needs to be battery in order to get anything approaching comfortable range, EVs are not a mass-market thing.

captainhurt
02-05-2013, 07:48 PM
Ellen, Can you suggest a more recent discussion on the topic. There's no animosity here, just pure facts and help for those seeking advice. Dont confuse disagreement with hard-feelings. I gave links to scientific analysis and hard real-word experience and other boards to help the casual reader on the topic/thread. Thats positive i hope you agree, and not negative simply because of the evidence provided?
Again, there's no animosity or bad feelings, Ellen, but this discussion is still OPEN and not CLOSED, therefore, allows new posts, posts that dont necessarily follow a certain perspective with threats of censorship.
Its clearly demonstrated by new posts and posters that the subject is still actively searched for and contributed to with active readers that can benefit from discussion.
Again, if you have a more recent THREAD, that'd be handy, or if you feel this discussion is stale or needs to close, isn't there a way to close it?


[QUOTE=Ellen Cherry;15974438]captainhurt, welcome to the Straight Dope. As was noted above, your posts on this topic revived a nearly five-year-old thread, so you are responding to a discussion that happened that long ago.

jz78817
02-05-2013, 08:09 PM
There's no animosity here, just pure facts

no there aren't.

I gave links to scientific analysis and hard real-word experience and other boards to help the casual reader on the topic/thread.

no you didn't.

Thats positive i hope you agree, and not negative simply because of the evidence provided?

you haven't provided any evidence.

Again, there's no animosity or bad feelings, Ellen, but this discussion is still OPEN and not CLOSED, therefore, allows new posts, posts that dont necessarily follow a certain perspective with threats of censorship.

there's no CENSORSHIP here. most all internal combustion engines can burn ethanol as fuel. that does NOT mean that they all can burn ethanol WELL. An internal combustion engine designed to burn gasoline will run best burning gasoline. An internal combustion engine designed to burn alcohol will run best burning alcohol. A flex-fuel engine will do its best with a wide range of gasoline-ethanol blends. but I'd almost guarantee you it'll do far better on straight gasoline than it will E85.

Its clearly demonstrated by new posts and posters that the subject is still actively searched for and contributed to with active readers that can benefit from discussion.
Again, if you have a more recent THREAD, that'd be handy, or if you feel this discussion is stale or needs to close, isn't there a way to close it?

ethanol has lower energy density per gallon. it takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than you'll get back by burning it.


captainhurt, welcome to the Straight Dope. As was noted above, your posts on this topic revived a nearly five-year-old thread, so you are responding to a discussion that happened that long ago.

captainhurt
02-05-2013, 10:49 PM
hehe.. "ok".

swampspruce
02-06-2013, 10:39 AM
I would also challenge the assertion that EVs are less toxic.
1) I grant that they are less toxic in your driveway, but many places are still reliant on coal for electrical production which pushes a LOT of pollution into the air so you have only offset the problem out of your back yard.
2) The manufacture of the battery packs involve a lot of REEs and older battery technologies use lead. What happens when these cars are in accidents or are scrapped? Until N.America embraces the idea of corporate recycling and makes it profitable, they will end up in land fills.
3) Batteries need a much higher energy density before they are mass marketable in a meaningful way. A car with a 200 km range is little use in rural America or Canada where distances between charges can be quite distant.
4) I like the idea of EVs and would even consider one in my future, but I can't afford $45k for a vehicle in which I can barely fit 4 adults and carry out a trip from where I live to the nearest major city 300 km away.
You make a few points about using the car less, but for some people, the paradigm shift required won't happen without some major changes.

Really Not All That Bright
02-06-2013, 10:43 AM
Frankly i have no interest whatsoever in 100 yr old standard "engines" (ICE). Electric motors are far more efficient, never break down, and dont require all the auto's toxic "FLUIDS", pumps and other toxic crap that LEAK everywhere. best of all electric vehicles are FAR SIMPLER STRUCTURE/DESIGN. that should give folks a start.
The electric motor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commutator_(electric)) predates the internal combustion engine. You may not have any interest in "100 year old standard engines", but you seem to have plenty in 180 year old ones.

Yes, the electric motor is far better than an internal combustion engine - in theory. In practice, we're not there yet. I know you hate theory.
I gave links to scientific analysis and hard real-word experience and other boards to help the casual reader on the topic/thread.
You gave us links to YouTube and a minivan message board. If you want to prove a point, try referencing a peer-reviewed study, or at least a source people have heard of.

People who post YouTube links in debates are generally (though not invariably) crackpots, so try not to do that.

Malacandra
02-06-2013, 05:14 PM
I have this strange inchoate urge to post the word "butt" in this thread.

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