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tdn
06-25-2012, 02:33 PM
I know there was a previous thread on this, but I can't find it and I don't think that it really answered the question anyway.

At the end of last season, the local pool -- which is a municiple pool -- started construction. It just ended about a week ago, and opened to the public this past weekend.

The deep end, which was 10' deep, is now only 5' deep. From the previous thread, my understanding is that this is happening all over the country. Back in March I was in a hotel swimming pool and the deep end was just over 6', but I think it was always that. In October I was in a hotel pool that went to 8'.

When I asked a life guard yesterday, she said it was because "There was an incident. Someone drowned. Not here." Later in the day I was telling someone else about it, and she said that it was because of that incident last year where someone drowned and no one saw the body for 3 days -- a story I still find hard to believe.

So what's the dope? What was the actual impetus for the change? Does it only affect public pools, or are privately owned pools subject to this as well?

Si Amigo
06-25-2012, 02:45 PM
Insurance rates. It cost more to own a pool with a deep end that an adult cannot stand up and have their head above water. Smaller children also stand a better chance of surviving an incident in 5 feet of water because they can sort of hop out of danger. Not finding a body for days is not relevant, since it's dead when you find it anyway whether it be 3 days or 1 minute.

Also, owning a pool actually makes your house value go down, It's a luxury that doesn't pay for itself and can cost the owner huge amounts of money in lawsuits. Unless you just have to have a high dive I don't see why anyone would really want a deep end pool more than 5 feet; more of a headache/heartache than they are worth.

leahcim
06-25-2012, 02:46 PM
I found one story (http://telegram.com/article/20120623/NEWS/120629744/1116) about a woman who drowned and whose body was missing for two days. But it seems like there were a lot of problems at that pool -- most notably the fact that the water was murky enough that a body could go missing in it.

The article also cites making the pools less expensive as a reason, which I expect is the main one for most pools. If 90% of the pool users would be satisfied with a shallower pool, why incur the additional construction, maintenance, and safety costs of having a deep end?

steronz
06-25-2012, 02:49 PM
Link. (http://riverpoolsandspas.com/blog/bid/32103/5-Reasons-Why-Diving-Boards-and-Diving-Pools-Have-Gone-the-Way-of-the-Dinosaur) You only need a deep end if you have a diving board, and diving boards are going away for various reasons.

RedSwinglineOne
06-25-2012, 02:50 PM
This (http://sfgate.com/entertainment/morford/article/The-End-Of-The-Deep-End-The-swimming-pool-as-2603900.php) doesn't answer your question, but confirms your observations. "The End Of The Deep End" from 2003.

And this, "Inground Pool With No Deep End Pros & Cons" (http://ehow.com/list_6598771_inground-deep-end-pros-cons.html) discussed pros and cons.

dracoi
06-25-2012, 02:58 PM
Since the cost of water, water heating and water treatment depend (in part) on volume of water, there are certainly incentives to have less water, especially when you don't need much depth for most pool activities.

Reducing the cost of insurance and risk of drowning may also be substantial.

While there may be a single event as an impetus for some pools taking this measure (clearly leahcim's cite shows a single event), the US has thousands of individual jurisdictions setting rules and enforcing codes. It's likely that many people are responding to a general analysis rather than a single event.

As for not finding a body... I can believe it happened, but any pool with water conditions that bad shouldn't be open to the public in the first place.

tdn
06-25-2012, 03:08 PM
I found one story (http://telegram.com/article/20120623/NEWS/120629744/1116) about a woman who drowned and whose body was missing for two days. But it seems like there were a lot of problems at that pool -- most notably the fact that the water was murky enough that a body could go missing in it.

There are a lot of good responses here, but this:

During the off-season, the agency spent more than $1 million to renovate the Fall River pool as well as pools in Boston and Cambridge. In each case, the deep ends were filled in to under 6 feet, part of a long-term process to make the pools less expensive and safer.

probably explains the pool that I was at yesterday. That's consistent with what people told me. Too bad, because that pool is never murky and has an excellent safety record.

Bozuit
06-25-2012, 03:20 PM
Not finding a body for days is not relevant, since it's dead when you find it anyway whether it be 3 days or 1 minute.

It is if people are still using the pool up until the body is discovered!

tdn
06-25-2012, 03:26 PM
Yeah, I don't want to swim in corpse soup.

Anne Neville
06-25-2012, 03:30 PM
Link. (http://riverpoolsandspas.com/blog/bid/32103/5-Reasons-Why-Diving-Boards-and-Diving-Pools-Have-Gone-the-Way-of-the-Dinosaur) You only need a deep end if you have a diving board, and diving boards are going away for various reasons.

That link also says that most people spend about 80% of their time in parts of the pool where they can stand. It doesn't make much sense to have a deep end if nobody is spending much time in it. You could have more shallow end for the same ground area, and accommodate more people.

That Don Guy
06-25-2012, 03:42 PM
You only need a deep end if you have a diving board, and diving boards are going away for various reasons.
This. +1. Agreed. Whatever the term is this week.

When I went to high school in the late 1970s, the swimming pool (which was separate from the "diving pool") had a maximum depth of 5 feet. Not that this didn't cause problems of its own; each end was only 3 1/2 feet, which meant (a) even if you wanted to use it for water polo, the goals would have to be 4 1/2 feet high, and (b) under current swimming rules, all races would have to start in the water.

Besides - who uses a diving board? Isn't that what the roof of your house is for?

blondebear
06-25-2012, 03:47 PM
Besides - who uses a diving board? Isn't that what the roof of your house is for?Only if you're a golden god. :p

Kevbo
06-25-2012, 04:15 PM
Just curious:

Can you actually teach taller people to tread water in only 5' of depth? At 6'5" I think I'd need at least 8'. Seems like being able to tread water is an important element of how not to drown.

Emtar KronJonDerSohn
06-25-2012, 04:50 PM
In a standard residential sized pool, having a deep end and a shallow end makes for a steep transition. If you dive in at an angle you can easily hit this transition head on at high speed and sustain a spinal injury.

I am 6'4" and I can tread water in shallow pool without touching the bottom. I put my heels on the main drain and my nostrils are 1/2" above water. I would suppose it's 5'10" or so?

tdn
06-25-2012, 04:59 PM
Can you actually teach taller people to tread water in only 5' of depth?

I'm 6'1" and can do it, but sometimes I bump my foot.

Hari Seldon
06-25-2012, 05:06 PM
I assume it is a liability question. But I don't see how you can learn to tread water in 5'. But even if the pool has a diving board they won't let you practice treading water there anyway; you might get conked by a diver. I really prefer swimming in the ocean anyway. Lots of extra buoyancy there.

Hilarity N. Suze
06-25-2012, 05:08 PM
Most pools are getting rid of the diving board, and if you don't have a diving board you don't need a deep end.

When I was a lifeguard, if the water got so murky that we couldn't see the bottom of the deep end, we closed the pool. (I think people thought it was because something was wrong with the water, and that could have been true, too--but we closed it because we couldn't see to the bottom so someone could be down there and we wouldn't know it.)

Unfortunately, this means that a lot of pools won't let you dive at all, either. Which I guess i can understand. But that is how I prefer to enter the water, and frankly I can dive into water 3 ft. deep without getting near the bottom (when I dive from the side, I mean; I wouldn't do it from a board).

It probably also saves a lot of the water cost, and less water means lower cost for the chemicals, too.

RedSwinglineOne
06-25-2012, 06:53 PM
Yeah, I don't want to swim in corpse soup.

"Waiter! There is a maggot in my soup!"

John DiFool
06-25-2012, 07:11 PM
So, has anyone been to a pool recently which still had a deep end and a diving board? How about a high dive? I used to love jumping off of the latter...

Martin Hyde
06-25-2012, 07:45 PM
Just curious:

Can you actually teach taller people to tread water in only 5' of depth? At 6'5" I think I'd need at least 8'. Seems like being able to tread water is an important element of how not to drown.

I'm 6'5" but wasn't anywhere close to it when I learned how to tread water...I don't know how tall I was (maybe my mom kept a growth chart?) at 5 years old, maybe around 3.5'??

blondebear
06-25-2012, 09:13 PM
So, has anyone been to a pool recently which still had a deep end and a diving board?Yes--I was in Glenwood Springs (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/csnnZK1TnCKzvDN6dFri79MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink) last month. Jumping off a diving board is one of my greatest joys in life. When I'm on the road, I'm always on the lookout for a public pool with a diving board--they're getting harder and harder to find.

Pork Rind
06-25-2012, 09:19 PM
So, has anyone been to a pool recently which still had a deep end and a diving board? How about a high dive? I used to love jumping off of the latter...

Hell, I was at a pool (http://kingcounty.gov/recreation/parks/pools.aspx) this weekend that had a 10 meter platform!

Colophon
06-26-2012, 09:14 AM
I'd have thought a pool with no deep end would be more dangerous, as people diving in stand more chance of hitting the bottom.

Anne Neville
06-26-2012, 10:42 AM
I'd have thought a pool with no deep end would be more dangerous, as people diving in stand more chance of hitting the bottom.

There are probably "no diving" signs all around the pool, and no diving board.

Si Amigo
06-26-2012, 10:53 AM
I put my heels on the main drain and my nostrils are 1/2" above water. I would suppose it's 5'10" or so?

How can you thread water with your heels up against your crouch? :eek:

Ulfreida
06-26-2012, 11:03 AM
The two coolest public swimming pools I have ever been to:

Tenino, WA (http://ci.tenino.wa.us/newsite/quarry-pool/)
Town pool created from an abandoned quarry, features an apparently bottomless deep end and an enormous waterfall from the top of the quarried wall. Couldn't do this today.

Ahalunui Park (http://funhawaiitravel.com/Puna%20Hot%20Springs.html), Puna, Hawaii
A rich guy carved this giant pool out from lava, between a hot springs and the sea, fed by both. Donated it to the state.

Both of these pools are worth a day trip.

Anaamika
06-26-2012, 11:16 AM
So, has anyone been to a pool recently which still had a deep end and a diving board? How about a high dive? I used to love jumping off of the latter...

I go to the Y daily. I've been reading this thread with interest, because the pool at the Y, while small-ish (it's only 20 yards) they certainly do have a deep end. I can't remember if it's 10 or 12 feet deep right now, but I think it's ten feet. Anyway when I go, early in the morning, people are using it for lap swimming, so they certainly use both ends. There are diving boards but I've never seen anyone use them. I assume they are used in "open swim" when all the kiddies come and pee in the pool.

Meurglys
06-26-2012, 12:59 PM
Edinburgh's international-sized pool has recently re-opened after extensive renovations - it still has a deep end, in fact, it only has a deep end!
The shallow end has been deepened and it's now 2 metres deep for it's full length.

I never was a very strong swimmer but I had been thinking of taking it up again after many years. But I think for my first few efforts I'll go somewhere else where I'm not so likely to drown!

Anaamika
06-26-2012, 01:00 PM
Edinburgh's international-sized pool has recently re-opened after extensive renovations - it still has a deep end, in fact, it only has a deep end!
The shallow end has been deepened and it's now 2 metres deep for it's full length.

I never was a very strong swimmer but I had been thinking of taking it up again after many years. But I think for my first few efforts I'll go somewhere else where I'm not so likely to drown!

Yeah even if you can swim it doesn't feel as safe. I can swim but I really need to build up my cardio, so for the first week I didn't go anywhere near the deep end.

ZipperJJ
06-26-2012, 01:05 PM
So, has anyone been to a pool recently which still had a deep end and a diving board? How about a high dive? I used to love jumping off of the latter...

My local rec center was built in 2002 and has a deep end. But it's perpendicular to the not-deep lap pool (the whole setup forms an L), so you can't really swim laps there. It doesn't have a high dive but 2 low diving boards.

IIRC a local Y I did a Swim for Diabetes at had a deep lap pool, but it was quite an old facility.

tdn
06-26-2012, 01:34 PM
There are probably "no diving" signs all around the pool, and no diving board.

This actually might be a good thing. I love the pool, but get really annoyed at the teenagers/young adults who fling themselves (or throw their girlfriends) into the deep end. It makes swimming there a splashy pain and a little dangerous.

Si Amigo
06-26-2012, 01:53 PM
This actually might be a good thing. I love the pool, but get really annoyed at the teenagers/young adults who fling themselves (or throw their girlfriends) into the deep end. It makes swimming there a splashy pain and a little dangerous.

I almost died at 21 when two drunken roommates tossed me into the deep end at the apartment pool. The were too screwed up to pull me out; thank god for that a lifeguard was hanging out on his apartment balcony and saw it; ran down the stairs, jumped in and pushed my "buddies" aside so he could pull me out. I didn't learn how to swim for another 27 years because of that.

Anne Neville
06-26-2012, 02:03 PM
This actually might be a good thing. I love the pool, but get really annoyed at the teenagers/young adults who fling themselves (or throw their girlfriends) into the deep end. It makes swimming there a splashy pain and a little dangerous.

And you just know that, if some idiot gets injured while doing something dumb, they or their parents might sue the owners of the pool. Is it any wonder a public pool doesn't want to deal with that?

If it keeps rowdy teenagers and young adults from coming to the pool, that might not be a bad thing from the POV of pool management. If they're annoying other pool users or scaring off potential pool users, it might be a net positive for the pool owner if they stayed away.

Not having a deep end might make the pool less attractive to people who want to do risky stuff, but be neutral or make it more attractive to people who want to do less risky things. As long as there are enough people interested in doing the less risky stuff (which seems to be the case, from the data and from my experiences at pools), that's a big win for a pool owner. If not having a deep end also reduces the costs of operating the pool, that's even better.

The Man In Black
06-26-2012, 02:12 PM
This is why I swim in rivers, lakes and dams. They are nice and deep (the part of the river I swim in is deep). And the people who can't swim and are afraid of water they can't stand up in don't usually go there.

Ulfreida
06-26-2012, 02:16 PM
I almost died at 21 when two drunken roommates tossed me into the deep end at the apartment pool. The were too screwed up to pull me out; thank god for that a lifeguard was hanging out on his apartment balcony and saw it; ran down the stairs, jumped in and pushed my "buddies" aside so he could pull me out. I didn't learn how to swim for another 27 years because of that.

You were 21 and didn't know how to swim? Your parents/school system were criminally negligent.

Ludovic
06-26-2012, 02:19 PM
Town pool created from an abandoned quarry, features an apparently bottomless deep end and an enormous waterfall from the top of the quarried wall.

I love the pool, but get really annoyed at the teenagers/young adults who fling themselves (or throw their girlfriends) into the deep end.
Let's go to the quarry and throw girlfriends in there!

Anaamika
06-26-2012, 02:23 PM
You were 21 and didn't know how to swim? Your parents/school system were criminally negligent.

My SO doesn't know how to swim and he's 36 AND he grew up on Long Island. :confused: I'm not sure how this happens, to be honest. My mother had a severe fear of water - so she went out of the way to make sure I had swimming classes and knew how to swim, so I would never have that fear.

TGWATY
06-26-2012, 02:28 PM
So now that we have various reasons as to why the deep ends are disappearing... why now? If these reasons make such sense (and I'm not saying they don't) why didn't they make as much sense 20 years ago? or 50 years ago?

Our municipal pool has separate deep pool for the diving boards. You can only use it for the boards. You have to dive off, swim straight for the ladder and get out. I miss being able to play in the deep end.

tdn
06-26-2012, 02:30 PM
If it keeps rowdy teenagers and young adults from coming to the pool, that might not be a bad thing from the POV of pool management. If they're annoying other pool users or scaring off potential pool users, it might be a net positive for the pool owner if they stayed away.

I don't know if it's going to keep them away or not. The pool's only been open for 4 days now, so time will tell. Anyway I usually go in the mornings, before they show up. In the afternoon it gets super crowded, so I don't think they've been scaring people away so far.

aruvqan
06-26-2012, 02:34 PM
You were 21 and didn't know how to swim? Your parents/school system were criminally negligent.
The school my brother went to didn't have a pool. Not all schools have them, you know.

Of course we both learned to swim in the summers, there was a very active Red Cross program at the lake our cottage was on, but we both knew how to swim already.

DeepLiquid
06-26-2012, 02:45 PM
So, has anyone been to a pool recently which still had a deep end and a diving board? How about a high dive? I used to love jumping off of the latter...

I swim at the local university pool, it has a 14' diving well with a three meter board. Unfortunately the only people who get to use the boards at the dive team.

Si Amigo
06-26-2012, 02:54 PM
You were 21 and didn't know how to swim? Your parents/school system were criminally negligent.

Where I grew up the nearest public pool to take lessons at was over 20 miles from our home. Same for lakes, none near by, just ponds and creeks which are nasty things to swim in. Except for rich folks no one had real pools back then in our area and most of those were only 3 foot deep kiddie pools. I would have learned to swim in college when I got out into the world; had it not been for the assholes throwing me in. Near death experiences tend to have severe reactions on people.

I only learned to swim at 48 because I started doing water aerobics due to tendentious and pulled muscles from running and lifting weights. Once I overcame the fear of just being in the water it became easy to swim. Still don't care for the deep end; five foot is enough to swim in.

ducati
06-26-2012, 06:32 PM
You want deep? You can't handle the deep.

Unless you go to Belgium (http://anvari.org/cols/Deepest_Pool_in_the_World/)!

Ludovic
06-26-2012, 06:33 PM
In India, deep handles YOU! (http://google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q="anil+mandeep"&oq="anil+mandeep)

Mdcastle
06-26-2012, 06:35 PM
I'm 39 and don't know how to swim...

fiddlesticks
06-26-2012, 06:47 PM
The town that I grew up in Wisconsin had a municipal outdoor pool built during the Depression years that was shallow at both ends (3'), medium deep in the middle (6' maybe?), then a 12' diving well extending from the middle with two 1 meter diving boards and a 3 meter "high dive". (Well, maybe 3 yards, or whatever system they built diving boards to in the 30's). It also had a concrete starting block at one of the shallow ends, surely an insurance nightmare by the eighties. I remember even thinking about getting up on the block would get you tossed out of the pool. It was built to host swim meets, and my parents said it held pretty major regional AAU (or the 1960s swimming equivalent) meets into their childhoods.

The pool got massively rebuilt in the 1990s and looks nothing like it used to. It has water slides instead of diving boards, it has a walk out shallow end and the deepest part probably isn't more than 5 feet. Both the town high school and the local Y have indoor pools with diving wells in them so there really was no more need to have a deep end anymore for the local swim teams, and I'm sure it is cheaper to insure!

alphaboi867
06-26-2012, 11:31 PM
The school my brother went to didn't have a pool. Not all schools have them, you know.

Of course we both learned to swim in the summers, there was a very active Red Cross program at the lake our cottage was on, but we both knew how to swim already.

My school district didn't have a pool. Plans for one were drawn up when the high school was built 40 yrs ago, but they opted for shop classrooms (including a garage for auto shop). Then in the early '90s when the attached middle school was built there were plans for a shared pool, but the board opted for a clocktower (which is why both sets of lockerrooms open into a huge empty courtyard). From what I've heard most of the districts in the region that do have pools have now closed them for budgetary reasons. I learned to swim at home and at the YMCA when I was very young. My grandparents had an indoor pool and my parents later got an above ground one.

Guinastasia
06-26-2012, 11:44 PM
No more deep ends? That sucks. Some of the best times I had when I was a teenager were hanging out at the pool with my friends. My best friend used to do all kinds of trick dives and all the little kids used to love watching her. We used to move the fulcrum to make the board more springy, and the lifeguards didn't even care. (Well, we knew most of them from school, or they were older siblings of friends)


I just looked up my local pool, and it seems they still have the diving board, thank god. (In fact, it looks like they've added more since the last time I was there!)


Besides, it isn't like you need deeper water in which to drown -- you can certainly drown in five feet of water. Hell, you can drown in an inch of water, technically.

Ulfreida
06-27-2012, 12:00 AM
Where I grew up the nearest public pool to take lessons at was over 20 miles from our home. Same for lakes, none near by, just ponds and creeks which are nasty things to swim in. Except for rich folks no one had real pools back then in our area and most of those were only 3 foot deep kiddie pools. I would have learned to swim in college when I got out into the world; had it not been for the assholes throwing me in. Near death experiences tend to have severe reactions on people.

I only learned to swim at 48 because I started doing water aerobics due to tendentious and pulled muscles from running and lifting weights. Once I overcame the fear of just being in the water it became easy to swim. Still don't care for the deep end; five foot is enough to swim in.

I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking. My mother grew up on a Wisconsin farm in the '30's and never really learned to swim, so when she raised her children out in California (where I believe it is pretty standard for high schools to have pools that offer summer programs for younger kids), she was adamant that we all take swimming lessons every summer, beginning around first grade, until we passed "Advanced". She never said, but I think she was afraid we'd drown and she wouldn't be able to save us. Where you can swim outdoors even in winter (if your gym teacher makes you, anyway), I guess pools are more of a school fixture.

I really don't like swimming in pools any more. Too many chemicals. Rivers and lakes for me (exceptions being those amazing pools I posted about up thread).

N9IWP
06-27-2012, 06:35 AM
My small city (~5k) just got a new pool. It has a deep end - there is both a 1M and a 3M diving board, and a climbing wall (which is hard to climb because you are wet and it leans out over the pool). I know it is 11' near the climbing wall.
We also got two water slides, but it is only 3' 6" deep there.


Brian

Shalmanese
06-27-2012, 07:12 AM
Can you have a pool without a deep end and still have starting blocks (http://swimmerscorner.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/swimmer-starting-block.jpg)? I remember when using starting blocks that you would go a decent way into the water if you wanted to.

Si Amigo
06-27-2012, 07:33 AM
Can you have a pool without a deep end and still have starting blocks (http://swimmerscorner.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/swimmer-starting-block.jpg)? I remember when using starting blocks that you would go a decent way into the water if you wanted to.

Olympic pool standards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic-size_swimming_pool) are 2 meter depth minimum and often go deeper. I imagine that most pools used for competition use the Olympic standard or close to it. Six and half minimum qualifies as deep end for me; in fact the whole thing is deep.

fiddlesticks
06-27-2012, 08:28 AM
Can you have a pool without a deep end and still have starting blocks (http://swimmerscorner.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/swimmer-starting-block.jpg)? I remember when using starting blocks that you would go a decent way into the water if you wanted to.

The new YMCA pool in my hometown (2nd one in the building) that was built in the 1980s had starting blocks in the shallow end. Thinking the shallow end was 4 feet, because it wasn't "up to the waist" shallow, but you could still stand easily as a kid. The deep end had a movable walkway to adjust the length of the lap section of the pool and separated it from the diving well. I used the blocks during swimming lessons but during open swim lifeguards would throw you out if you got up on them. I remember I used to scrap my chest half the time, and the instructors put the fear in God to us about being careful to protect our heads and necks.

BigT
06-27-2012, 08:54 AM
So far, I don't believe my local pool has been renovated to remove the deep end, though I haven't been there in a while, anyways. It's just not something they are likely to spend money on. Few people around here are in the "save money by spending money" wave of thought.

billfish678
06-27-2012, 11:10 AM
. I remember I used to scrap my chest half the time, and the instructors put the fear in God to us about being careful to protect our heads and necks.

Wouldn't it be ironic that in trying to make pools safer by having no deep end we significantly increase the number of serious head and neck injuries? Many people like to dive in water. Most people have enough sense to do it in the deep end. But if there isn't one it will be in the shallower water and thats not as safe.

Also, this no deep end business might make more people afraid of the water. Yeah you can learn to swim in water you can stand up in. But you are less likely to do so or feel the need to do. And even if you do learn to swim, water over your head is still gonna be a bit scary because you've never/rarely actual staked you life on your ability to swim.

And durn it I like deep ends. And not for the diving board. I just liked swimming around down there. I hate to see them go :(

Diceman
06-27-2012, 12:11 PM
My in-laws have a pool with a deep end. The pool isn't deep enough to dive in, so the deep end is mostly a nuisance that makes it impossible to stand up in half the pool.

Anne Neville
06-27-2012, 12:51 PM
Also, this no deep end business might make more people afraid of the water.

That might not be an entirely bad thing. According to the CDC, about 3500 Americans drown every year. (http://cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/Water-Safety/waterinjuries-factsheet.html/) We should be at least as afraid of drowning as we are of terrorism.

The Man In Black
07-17-2012, 08:07 PM
That might not be an entirely bad thing. According to the CDC, about 3500 Americans drown every year. (http://cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/Water-Safety/waterinjuries-factsheet.html/) We should be at least as afraid of drowning as we are of terrorism.

I would think being able to swim (or swim better) would take care of at least some of those deaths.

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