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View Full Version : Scariest Sin in movie "Se7en"?


Freudian Slit
08-05-2001, 05:11 PM
What do you think is the creepiest one?

I personally would have to vote for-
Sloth. The idea of having that done to you and no one knowing about it. For up to a year. One of the things that has shaken me up the most in a movie.

But since I think a lot of you might say that one, I'll include my second choice, lust. The idea of having to have sex with someone to kill them. And what a way to go. It's one of those situations where you'd like to say that you would do the noble thing and not kill the person and die yourself, but you know you probably wouldn't.

Conversely, do you have a vote for most tolerable? I didn't think pride was too bad- in comparision with the other ones. After all, she could have survived. Yes her nose was cut off (and that probably hurt a lot), but she wouldn't have died if she hadn't overdosed.

Mythos45
08-05-2001, 05:20 PM
Yea, definetely Sloth. That scene messed with me like few in any films have.

ladyfoxfyre
08-05-2001, 05:59 PM
I don't know, I'd say greed was pretty bad. Having to cut off a pound of your own flesh, no bone, no cartelidge.
Eeekk.....:::shudder:::

I haven't seen that movie in years, anyone know when it's coming up on DirecTV? I have all the movie channels, so if anyone knows, I'd appreciate it.

Guinastasia
08-05-2001, 06:07 PM
What exactly happened with Lust-rape with a knife, or something like that?

I'd go with Sloth, because the figure was so scary looking it gave me nightmares, especially when it MOVED...

Ross
08-05-2001, 06:25 PM
Wrath. I know it's corny but that messed me up. Getting your wife's head in a box before you even know she's dead, or pregnant?

I have tried and tried but I can't find any way to justify Se7en. From Morgan Freeman on "one last case", to the gigantic sets (you do NOT have to hunt down the Divine Comedy in a magnificent, timeless New York library - any corner bookstore has it, and that's where they'd go because these guys are COPS and they should be BUSY) to the murderer's final victory, leaving us impotent, our hunger to see justice done left suddenly, agonisingly starved. Wouldn't it have been more interesting to explore the flipside of Dante's coin? To have Pitt on a journey upward toward the rose, as Spacey trudges down the circles? What was the point? To make me ill?

Freudian Slit
08-05-2001, 07:36 PM
Lust was, I believe, where a guy was having sex with a prostitue, and John Doe/Kevin Spacey came in. He put a gun to the guy's head, made him put this really scary looking contraption on his penis (very very sharp), and then have sex with her. If he refused, Kevin Spacey's character would have shot him. She ended up dying, and the guy who (unwillingly) killed her was in masses of guilt.

Ross, I think that one with the wife's head was really more envy. Because he was envious of their great life, that's why he killed her. Wrath was when Brad Pitt's character killed Spacey.

Wicked Blue
08-05-2001, 07:51 PM
Gluttony was pretty bad....being forced to eat until your stomach explodes.. Gah.

Rose

SPOOFE
08-05-2001, 08:11 PM
I always found the notion of being the victim of Sloth to be creepy. Imagine feeling your body dissolve over the course of a year... ::shudder::

However, I have to say that the notion of being the perpetrator of envy is something that I just can't fathom.

Guinastasia
08-05-2001, 08:44 PM
When I watched it with a friend and a friend's mom, we were almost positive it would be a dead fetus in the box, not the wife's head.

Myrnalene
08-05-2001, 10:31 PM
Sloth made the guy I was with scream like a wee lassie when we saw it in the theater. He was typically a very unemotional person. So that scene always simultaneously repulses and amuses me when I see it now.

Myrnalene
08-05-2001, 10:41 PM
This is only somewhat related to the OP, but it is amusing, at least to me. This movie came out when I was in high school and one Friday night a group of us went over to my friend's house to watch the video. Right after it was over we were all sitting there with a pretty strong case of bone-shivers. My friend hit the rewind button and the regular TV came on, and by some stroke of Providence, there was Kevin Spacey, grinning maniacally with his Golden Globe in hand. He had just won for the Usual Suspects and was on David Letterman doing the Top Ten list (or something). We stared in silence for a few seconds and then erupted into screams. Ahh, to be 17 again........

Jeep's Phoenix
08-05-2001, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Guinastasia
What exactly happened with Lust-rape with a knife, or something like that?


In the book (which was much more graphic than the movie), the man is wearing a leather dildo with some kind of blade sewn into it. The book wasn't very clear about why the man was wearing it, but I'm assuming he was forced to use it by John Doe.

Freudian Slit
08-05-2001, 11:02 PM
Good god, there was a BOOK? I never even knew! Who is it by? Maybe I should read it.

Montfort
08-05-2001, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Jeep's Phoenix
In the book (which was much more graphic than the movie), the man is wearing a leather dildo with some kind of blade sewn into it. The book wasn't very clear about why the man was wearing it, but I'm assuming he was forced to use it by John Doe.
Just a quick point of order.

The "book" version of Se7en was a novelisation based on Andrew Kevin Walker's screenplay. It was not an original novel, and, quite frankly, the screenplay is very readable and available (http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0571200982/qid=997066982/sr=2-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/103-4374368-1267040). (Just ignore the script for the atrocious 8mm and you'll be fine.)

-- Montfort, on behalf of all screenwriters who think that novelisations are evil.

Katisha
08-05-2001, 11:06 PM
I haven't even seen this movie, and this thread is still freaking me out...

So I guess I shouldn't post this link (http://emode.com/emode/tests/seven_deadly_sins.jsp).

Kaitlyn
08-06-2001, 02:08 AM
"Lust" was a strap-on dildo with a long, sharp, curved knife on the end that John Doe forced the john to wear while he screwed the prostitute. The john was the "victim" in the "lust" punishment; he was the one being punished for his lust. The prostitute was merely a convenient way of providing the punishment.

John Doe was "Envy"--he envied the life that Pitt had, specifically he covetted Pitt's wife--and Pitt was "Wrath", exacting vengence on Doe for killing Mrs. Pitt.

Ross: Det. Somerset looks up a lot of stuff related to the seven deadly sins at the library; the Inferno is just one of them. Of course he's busy, which is why he does it in the middle of the night. Personally, I thing a library is a good place to do research.

As for a more interesting ending. The DVD discusses alternate endings that were discussed and one that was storyboarded. In that ending, Somerset kills John Doe before Pitt has a chance. The idea being that it wouldn't matter if Somerset ended his career, because he was retiring anyway, and this way Pitt gets his vengence, but doesn't ruin his life in the process. It was decided that the ending as originally shot worked better.

Gene Siskel had the same kind of moral objection to this movie as you seem to have. He referred to it as murder as entertainment, because it focused so closely on the grisliness of the murders themselves. I disagree, but I can understand that point of view.

Atreyu
08-06-2001, 02:33 AM
I concur with the others about Sloth. The scene with the victim representing the sin of Sloth creeped me out in ways few other movie scenes ever have. It's rare for me to be genuinely disturbed by a movie, but this one joins other films like The Exoricst and Misery for having scenes that genuinely freaked...me...out.

pldennison
08-06-2001, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by Number Six
"Lust" was a strap-on dildo with a long, sharp, curved knife on the end that John Doe forced the john to wear while he screwed the prostitute. The john was the "victim" in the "lust" punishment; he was the one being punished for his lust. The prostitute was merely a convenient way of providing the punishment.

I think an argument can be made for either of them as the victim. After all, when Mills tells Doe, "I thought all you did was kill innocent people," one of the people Doe mentions in reply is "the filthy, disease-spreading whore." It would be as easy to say that he punished the prostitute for inciting lust as that he punished the john for giving in to it.

Kaitlyn
08-06-2001, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by pldennison
Originally posted by Number Six
"Lust" was a strap-on dildo with a long, sharp, curved knife on the end that John Doe forced the john to wear while he screwed the prostitute. The john was the "victim" in the "lust" punishment; he was the one being punished for his lust. The prostitute was merely a convenient way of providing the punishment.

I think an argument can be made for either of them as the victim. After all, when Mills tells Doe, "I thought all you did was kill innocent people," one of the people Doe mentions in reply is "the filthy, disease-spreading whore." It would be as easy to say that he punished the prostitute for inciting lust as that he punished the john for giving in to it.

Good point. I would maintain that the john was the primary target, as each of the other targets was actually guilty of the sin itself, and a prostitute is seldom guilty of lust. Much in the way that killing Mrs. Mills wasn't done to punish her, but to punish Det. Mills; she was a tool to get at him. I see the prostitute as a tool to get at the real target, which was the john. But clearly both the john and the prostitute were victims, and John Doe cared nothing about her for the reason that you stated.

Freudian Slit
08-06-2001, 04:23 PM
What about Greed? I don't really see how cutting off a pound of your own flesh has anything to do with that sin...didn't he end up cutting off around his lovehandles?

Hello Again
08-06-2001, 05:39 PM
ugh. The movie was both horrifying and predictable. Have to say it was Sloth that gave me nightmares though. My boyfriend didn't speak to me for the rest of the night when I hollered "head in a box, Brad!" shortly before the "surprising" Envy/Wrath ending. (my reasoning: what is the very worst thing that could happen to his character right now?) On the other hand I didn't speak to him because he tried to *prevent* me from covering my eyes during certain scenes.

Turbo Dog
08-06-2001, 06:06 PM
The pound of flesh for greed was pretty ickky. To have to cut off a pound of ass just seems pretty bad.

Sloth wasn't exactly fun either. It's a toss up between the two for me.

Zoggie, about the greed/pound of flesh thing. It's from Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice. "This bond doth give thee here no jot of blood; the words expressly are 'a pound of flesh:' Take then thy bond, take thou thy pound of
flesh; But, in the cutting it, if thou dost shed one drop of Christian blood, thy lands and goods are, by the laws of Venice, confiscate unto the state of Venice."

Antonio borrowed a lot of money from Shylock, who held a pound of Antonio's flesh as collateral. Antonio couldn't repay the loan and Shylock demanded his collateral and intended to take out his heart. But his woman saved him by warning Shylock that he must take exactly one pound, no more no less, or else he would forfeit all his money to Venice.

Demanding a "pound of flesh" means holding to your rights to what is owed to the point of terrible cruelty. In other words, you would cut a pound of flesh from someone for money owed, regardless of amount. The guy had to cut a pound of flesh from his own body because of his greed for money. Get it?

Jeannie
08-06-2001, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Guinastasia
When I watched it with a friend and a friend's mom, we were almost positive it would be a dead fetus in the box, not the wife's head.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Back when I saw the movie with my best friend, I was also sure that the fetus would be in the box. Whenever I discussed it with people afterward, everyone said that they just knew it was the wife's head. And when I would mention my fetus theory, they would all stare at me as though I had just told them that I was a space alien. So now at least if it comes up ever again, I can say that I know other people who think like me.

Anyway, about the OP: You could make an argument for any of the murders. But "Sloth" freaked me right the hell out. When he moved, I screamed right there in the movie theatre. I think I scared the crap out of anyone who wasn't already shocked by the movie.

Guinastasia
08-06-2001, 09:54 PM
Hell, not only did we suspect it, but we were disappointed when it wasn't. I think that would have been a much better ending. But of course, no, they had to go for the head.

Lionors
08-06-2001, 10:06 PM
I'll vote with the Sloth crowd, but not quite for the same reason. Gore, gross and just plain sick don't bother me. Psychos scares hell out of me, however. Is there anyone else besides me who STILL can't stand the thought of putting those darn tree air fresheners in their car because of that scene??

Yes, what the guy had done to him was just mind-bogglingly repellent....but what squicked the heck out of me was the mind in the person who created the situation. It wasn't what Doe made that poor guy into as much as the fact that he could single-mindedly work on that, completely disregarding the guy's suffering, for as long as that process took... <cringe> I guess have a harder time believing that someone could actually accomplish that without getting caught than I do that someone could actually do it, given the opportunity.

My husband, however, votes for Envy. Hands down.

Freudian Slit
08-06-2001, 10:50 PM
Thank ye, Turbo Dog. Now I finally understand.

Wait what do tree freshners have to do with sloth?

I guess the fetus would have been more effective. Particularly if they had shown it. And when you think about it, Brad Pitt's character is always getting angry about something. I didn't really think of John Doe as the type of guy would would be envious of Brad and Gwyneth, though, too critical of everything. But you really don't know what's in the mind of the average serial killer (or in our case, NOT so average), do you?

mnemosyne
08-06-2001, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Zoggie
Wait what do tree freshners have to do with sloth?


The room was filled with them, hanging from the ceiling, etc., to hide the stench that must have been created by the guy's rotting body.

I also think sloth was the freakiest, and I, too, thought it was going to be the fetus rather than the head. Or both, to bring home the point that she was pregnant (IIRC, Pitt didn't know yet. Wouldn't showing BOTH be scarier and more anger-inducing?).

SE7EN is definitely one of he scariest movies I've ever seen - maybe I should watch it again sometime... :)

exchicagoan
08-07-2001, 12:32 AM
SLOTH of course, with LUST coming in a VERY close second. I also perceived that penis/blade contraption to be 14/16" long.

Mind blowing concept----the horrors that one human brain can conceive to do to another human being.

I'm sure that ANY big-city homicide detective could blow us all away with stories of what we do to each other. I forget where it was---they found some kid with 12/15 6" NAILS pounded into his head.

Ever read the COMPLETE description of what, exactly, JACK THE RIPPER did to Mary Kelly? Grizzley---FOR REAL!

pldennison
08-07-2001, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by Lionors
I'll vote with the Sloth crowd, but not quite for the same reason. Gore, gross and just plain sick don't bother me. Psychos scares hell out of me, however. Is there anyone else besides me who STILL can't stand the thought of putting those darn tree air fresheners in their car because of that scene??

Heh . . . the other day, when we were on our way home from work, my wife and I stopped at a light next to someone who had about 15 pine air fresheners hanging from his rearview mirror. I said, "Well, either he's got terrible B.O. or is a big fan of Se7en," sending my wife into paroxysms of laughter.

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