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Mr. Blue Sky
11-04-2001, 06:38 PM
There's a car company, Vauxhall, a division of GM in Europe. How do you pronounce it?

What's the deal with Jaguar? Most Americans tend to pronounce it JAG-WAHR, while I hear Brits pronounce it JAG-WIRE, Which is it? Or is it both?

And Citroen (I know, it's French): SI-TRON, or SIT-ROW-IN?

mancunian
11-04-2001, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Blue Sky
There's a car company, Vauxhall, a division of GM in Europe. How do you pronounce it?

What's the deal with Jaguar? Most Americans tend to pronounce it JAG-WAHR, while I hear Brits pronounce it JAG-WIRE, Which is it? Or is it both?

And Citroen (I know, it's French): SI-TRON, or SIT-ROW-IN?

Vox All

Jag U Ar

Sit-ron

Wallenstein
11-04-2001, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Blue Sky
There's a car company, Vauxhall, a division of GM in Europe. How do you pronounce it?

What's the deal with Jaguar? Most Americans tend to pronounce it JAG-WAHR, while I hear Brits pronounce it JAG-WIRE, Which is it? Or is it both?

And Citroen (I know, it's French): SI-TRON, or SIT-ROW-IN?

Vauxhall = "vox haul" (or maybe "vox hall")

Jaguar = "Jag You Are" (say it quick to get the right sound)

Citroen = "Sit-tron" (closest I could get to that I'm afraid :))

Depends also which part of the UK you are from.

e.g. round here it tends to be "JaagYoowa".


-- Quirm

Mr. Blue Sky
11-04-2001, 06:47 PM
Whew! That was quick! I figured I was right on Vauxhall. I figured Jaguar wass one of those regional things since I've heard different Brits pronounce different ways.

Thanks!

kniz
11-05-2001, 12:11 AM
How do you pronounce wass?

Floater
11-05-2001, 05:24 AM
Originally posted by Mr. Blue Sky

And Citroen (I know, it's French): SI-TRON, or SIT-ROW-IN?

The spelling is actually CitroŽn, the trema on top of the Ž indicating that each of the letters "e" and "n" is to be pronounced separately, thus it's SI-TRO-EN instead of the nasalation which should be there in the normal case.

Gyrate
11-05-2001, 05:33 AM
Also:

Renault

UK: REN-owe
US: Ren-OWE

Peugeot

UK: PER-zhow
US: Poo-ZHOW

Daewoo

UK: DAY-oo
US: DAY-woo

Yes?

Mangetout
11-05-2001, 05:36 AM
Pronouncing CitroŽn as SIT-RON is a tricky one because in French, Citron means lemon, Since CitroŽn is a French name, I try to emulate the French pronunciation as nearly as I am able*, but anyway, if I met a German named Schmitt, I wouldn't call him Smith.

*(I'm right on the South coast of England, so this IS an issue)

Wallenstein
11-05-2001, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by Mangetout
Pronouncing CitroŽn as SIT-RON is a tricky one because in French, Citron means lemon, Since CitroŽn is a French name, I try to emulate the French pronunciation as nearly as I am able*, but anyway, if I met a German named Schmitt, I wouldn't call him Smith.

*(I'm right on the South coast of England, so this IS an issue)

From Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: 1lem∑on
Pronunciation: 'le-m&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English lymon, from Middle French limon, from Medieval Latin limon-, limo, from Arabic laymun
Date: 15th century
1 a : an acid fruit that is botanically a many-seeded pale yellow oblong berry and is produced by a small thorny tree (Citrus limon) b : a tree that bears lemons
2 : one (as an automobile) that is unsatisfactory or defective

A very apt name for a French-made car, I've always thought... :D


-- Quirm

Mangetout
11-05-2001, 07:09 AM
I believe the general term 'Lemon' describing something unsatisfactory extends to the french language too, making it equally important not to mess up the pronunciation.

BTW, french cars seem OK to me, if this wasn't true, I suppose there wouldn't be any French cars* (I had a 2CV once, what a fantastic car that was; I mourn it's loss)

*(Market Forces, blah blah etc)

Wallenstein
11-05-2001, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by Mangetout
I believe the general term 'Lemon' describing something unsatisfactory extends to the french language too, making it equally important not to mess up the pronunciation.

BTW, french cars seem OK to me, if this wasn't true, I suppose there wouldn't be any French cars* (I had a 2CV once, what a fantastic car that was; I mourn it's loss)

*(Market Forces, blah blah etc)

Hmm... I would contend that the continued appeal of Rover cars would seem to tell against this claim... :D

I've lost count of the amount of Rovers I have seen with a little union flag sticker by the logo - I honestly think that people still persist in buying these rust-buckets cos they think they are somehow "buying British". :)

Anyway, nowt to do with the OP (and beginning to wander off into GD territory) so I'll leave it there :D

-- Quirm

Johanna
11-05-2001, 09:53 AM
A few corrections are in order.

CitroŽn is in three syllables, as Floater correctly noted ó except that the final syllable is in fact nasalized. The -n is not articulated as a consonant; it's there to show that the /e/ vowel goes through the nose. In French the usual way to indicate non-nasalization is a final -e which is absent here.

Merriam-Webster traced the origin of lemon only as far back as Arabic laymŻn; I don't know why M-W stopped halfway. Arabic got the word from Persian, which got it from Sanskrit limbu, originally nimbu. According to the etymology in the Oxford Hindi Dictionary, Sanskrit in turn borrowed nimbu from Austro-Asiatic, a language family spoken by prehistoric indigenous inhabitants of India, now represented by the Munda languages spoken by hill tribes of Orissa. Other Austro-Asiatic languages include Khmer and Vietnamese.

The Korean vowel transliterated as "ae" is the same as the English vowel "a" in "dad." For the Korean pronunciation of Daewoo, say the first syllable the same as "dad" minus the final -d. Similarly, the beginning of taekwondo is pronounced like English "tack."

Jag-yoo-ah? Excuse me, that word comes from Spanish (originally TupŪ-GuaranŪ). It really has only two syllables. The u (between g and a vowel) has the sound of /w/. I hear Brits saying names like Nicarag-yoo-a and wonder how on earth they can justify inserting this Angloid pronunciation, extra syllable and all, in a foreign name where it obviously does not belong. Here in the United States we are in constant proximity to Spanish speakers and so are less inclined to gross distortion of Spanish pronunciation. There is this condition called "insularity" that comes of living on an island....

Wallenstein
11-05-2001, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Jomo Mojo
A few corrections are in order.

CitroŽn is in three syllables, as Floater correctly noted ó except that the final syllable is in fact nasalized. The -n is not articulated as a consonant; it's there to show that the /e/ vowel goes through the nose. In French the usual way to indicate non-nasalization is a final -e which is absent here.

Merriam-Webster traced the origin of lemon only as far back as Arabic laymŻn; I don't know why M-W stopped halfway. Arabic got the word from Persian, which got it from Sanskrit limbu, originally nimbu. According to the etymology in the Oxford Hindi Dictionary, Sanskrit in turn borrowed nimbu from Austro-Asiatic, a language family spoken by prehistoric indigenous inhabitants of India, now represented by the Munda languages spoken by hill tribes of Orissa. Other Austro-Asiatic languages include Khmer and Vietnamese.

The Korean vowel transliterated as "ae" is the same as the English vowel "a" in "dad." For the Korean pronunciation of Daewoo, say the first syllable the same as "dad" minus the final -d. Similarly, the beginning of taekwondo is pronounced like English "tack."

Jag-yoo-ah? Excuse me, that word comes from Spanish (originally TupŪ-GuaranŪ). It really has only two syllables. The u (between g and a vowel) has the sound of /w/. I hear Brits saying names like Nicarag-yoo-a and wonder how on earth they can justify inserting this Angloid pronunciation, extra syllable and all, in a foreign name where it obviously does not belong. Here in the United States we are in constant proximity to Spanish speakers and so are less inclined to gross distortion of Spanish pronunciation. There is this condition called "insularity" that comes of living on an island....

Um, the Op was asking how we pronounce "Vauxhall" here in the UK, which was answered pretty well I think.

As regards Jaguar etc, no-one is suggesting that the British (or indeed American) way of pronouncing it is "correct" in some absolute sense! It's just a point of information that there exists a difference, and that is what was pointed out.

There must be a million threads already about the "rights" and "wrongs" of pronunciation - I think the idea of this thread was to clarify some factual differences which exists. It wasn't evaluative.

Don't be so touchy :)

-- Quirm

TheLoadedDog
11-05-2001, 08:42 PM
Most of the Aussies I know pronouce it JAG-you-are, but I've heard the English say JAG-wahr.

everton
11-05-2001, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by TheLoadedDog
Most of the Aussies I know pronouce it JAG-you-are, but I've heard the English say JAG-wahr. Nope. The English say JAG-you-are too Ė it's Americans who say JAG-wahr.

Floater
11-06-2001, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by Jomo Mojo
A few corrections are in order.

CitroŽn is in three syllables, as Floater correctly noted ó except that the final syllable is in fact nasalized. The -n is not articulated as a consonant; it's there to show that the /e/ vowel goes through the nose. In French the usual way to indicate non-nasalization is a final -e which is absent here.


Could you discuss that with my french teacher, please. The final -e you are talking about has is the French way of turning a masculine word into a feminine, eg Parisien - Parisienne (note also thar the "n" has been doubled). The trema is indeed, as I wrote, there to indicate that although it's a masculine spelling, the last syllable is pronounced as if it was feminine.

Izzardesque
11-06-2001, 09:47 AM
I must say that I say Jag- war too, and I'm British

hibernicus
11-06-2001, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Jomo Mojo
A few corrections are in order.
CitroŽn is in three syllables, as Floater correctly noted ó except that the final syllable is in fact nasalized. The -n is not articulated as a consonant; it's there to show that the /e/ vowel goes through the nose. In French the usual way to indicate non-nasalization is a final -e which is absent here.

No. It is pronounced sit-ro-en.

The Korean vowel transliterated as "ae" is the same as the English vowel "a" in "dad." For the Korean pronunciation of Daewoo, say the first syllable the same as "dad" minus the final -d. Similarly, the beginning of taekwondo is pronounced like English "tack."

Correct for Korean pronunciation, but not for English. The correct pronunciation of Daewoo in British English is dei-u, whether you like it or not.

Jag-yoo-ah? Excuse me, that word comes from Spanish (originally TupŪ-GuaranŪ). It really has only two syllables. [...] so are less inclined to gross distortion of Spanish pronunciation.
Gross distortion of Spanish pronunciation is not an issue when speaking English. And "Jaguar" is an English word.

Do you also feel the need to correct people who do not pronounce "omelette" or "croissant" in the French manner when speaking English?

Floater wrote:
The final -e you are talking about has is the French way of turning a masculine word into a feminine
Well, it's a way of making masculine words feminine (along with -eur -> -euse, -teur -> -trice, etc.), but lots of words ending in consonant+e are masculine.

Gary Kumquat
11-06-2001, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Jomo Mojo
Jag-yoo-ah? Excuse me, that word comes from Spanish (originally TupŪ-GuaranŪ). It really has only two syllables. The u (between g and a vowel) has the sound of /w/. I hear Brits saying names like Nicarag-yoo-a and wonder how on earth they can justify inserting this Angloid pronunciation, extra syllable and all, in a foreign name where it obviously does not belong. Here in the United States we are in constant proximity to Spanish speakers and so are less inclined to gross distortion of Spanish pronunciation. There is this condition called "insularity" that comes of living on an island....

Sorry, but you're talking drivel. Considering that the word Jaguar has been in use in the English language for some hundreds of years, to accuse people of being insular for having distorted it's pronunciation would be like taking the french to task for their pronunciation of "la hovercraft".

On the subject of words, I'd note that you can also define insularity as "having, or reflecting a narrow provincial viewpoint".

mancunian
11-06-2001, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Jomo Mojo
Here in the United States we are in constant proximity to Spanish speakers and so are less inclined to gross distortion of Spanish pronunciation. There is this condition called "insularity" that comes of living on an island....

Real Spanish speakers are from Spain, no? Thus have the same type of differences from Latin Americans, as British and Americans have.

I bet I live nearer Spain than the Majority of Americans do to Mexico.

How do you Pronounce MeXico over there? Just wonder.

mancunian
11-06-2001, 02:28 PM
Wouldn't this also be pronounced Y-aguar in Spanish?

Fretful Porpentine
11-06-2001, 03:21 PM
No, it would be pronounced H-aguar, but close enough.

I never really thought about it before, but I tend to think "car" when I hear jag-YU-war and "animal" when I hear jag-war. (I am an American who has spent a fair amount of time in the UK.)

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