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#1
Old 07-18-2002, 08:20 PM
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Would mixing urine and bleach create toxic fumes?

I remember being told once not to mix ammonia and bleach because it would create some sort of "mustard gas." I've also heard that urine contains ammonia. So would pissing into a bucket of bleach do anything or what?
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#2
Old 07-18-2002, 08:45 PM
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If you haven't ever peed into a toilet that someone has bleach soaking in, you haven't experienced much. It's nasty and definately toxic.

It's nasty enough you'll likely flush it down and make your escape before you are overcome by the fumes.
#3
Old 07-18-2002, 09:03 PM
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According to one of my Chemistry textbooks, the danger of mixing bleach and ammonia comes from the production of hydrazine, not mustard gas.

2NH3(aq) + OCl-(aq) ---> N2H4(aq) + Cl-(aq) + H20(l)

I don't believe there's much ammonia in fresh urine. Most of the nitrogen in urine is in urea. I have no idea how urea reacts with bleach.
#4
Old 07-18-2002, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bibliophage
According to one of my Chemistry textbooks, the danger of mixing bleach and ammonia comes from the production of hydrazine, not mustard gas.
Actually, the danger is that chlorine ion, aka chlorine gas. While not mustard gas, it was used as a chemical weapon in WWI. Nasty stuff.
#5
Old 07-18-2002, 10:30 PM
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Chlorine gas is toxic to breathe (can seriously damage both nasal passages and brain cells in large doses) and is flammable to boot .

Remember the pipe bombs Michael Biehn was making in the first "Terminator"? I do believe those were bleach-ammonia. So if you're gonna piss in your Clorox, don't smoke.
#6
Old 07-19-2002, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Karellen
So if you're gonna piss in your Clorox, don't smoke.
I must say this would make a good sig.
#7
Old 07-19-2002, 06:45 AM
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Urea degrades under microbial action to form ammonia. If you urinate then, say, go on holiday without flushing, you will definitely notice the ammonia smell on returning.

Alkaline solutions can react with bleaches to form chloride ions and there would be a risk of some chlorine formation.
Essentially, if you flush your toilet, it's not a problem.

BTW, don't ever mix different brands of cleaning products, since they might possibly react quite quickly to form noxious fumes.
#8
Old 07-19-2002, 07:36 AM
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So if chloride ions are all that nasty, We will have to do something about all that salt water thats around us. I've got a 3 molar solution of NaCl on my bench, should I call a HazMat team? Will it "spontaneously" form chlorine gas?

It's been my understanding that the reaction of ammonia and bleach is still under some dispute.

http://leas.ca/publications/bleach.htm
Untitled Document

http://ilpi.com/msds/ref/incompatible.html
The MSDS HyperGlossary: Incompatible

http://newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem00/chem00776.htm
Bleach and Ammonia </.head>

After about 2 minutes of looking on Google.

I hope those links work
#9
Old 07-19-2002, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Remember the pipe bombs Michael Biehn was making in the first "Terminator"? I do believe those were bleach-ammonia.
- - - I am not any authority on the subject, but in my excessively misspent youth, I don't ever recall making any explosives with bleach at all. Ammonia, yes. Bleach, no. What explosives involve bleach as an ingredient?
...
(Grocery store, what a wanker. Any delinquent worth his unfiltered Camels knows that if you wanna make bombs, you go to the auto parts store! sheesh!)
#10
Old 07-19-2002, 04:41 PM
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I don't ever recall making any explosives with bleach at all.
Bleach breaks down into chlorate. Chlorate is a powerful oxidizer, and is used in a variety of pyrotechnic and explosive devices.
#11
Old 07-19-2002, 04:47 PM
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I don't ever recall making any explosives with bleach at all.
Bleach breaks down into chlorate. Chlorate is a powerful oxidizer, and is used in a variety of pyrotechnic and explosive devices.
#12
Old 07-19-2002, 09:02 PM
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I lived in California for a number of years, during which there was a drought and everyone was urged to flush only when necessary. I would clean my toilet with ¼ cup of bleach and later pee without flushing before or afterwards, even for hours. Nary a hint of toxic fumes.
#13
Old 07-19-2002, 09:21 PM
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Didn't some of the doughboys use clothes soaked in their own piss as gas masks?
#14
Old 07-19-2002, 09:37 PM
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Chlorine gas is, of course, Cl2, not Cl-. I suppose that in principle if you had enough of the ion sitting around with the right other substances, you could manage to get it to react to form a poisonous gas, but then again, people don't seem to have too much problem with dying by standing next to brackish water (lots of chlorine from the dissolved salt) or hydrochloric acid, so I'd think the risks from that are slight. The hydrazine explanation sounds more reasonable to me, but it's been a few years since I was a chemist.

Actually, checking my various texts and the CRC, it looks like ClO- (hypochlorite) is a typical bleaching agent but is not overly involved with redox reactions in that the standard reduction potential is not large. As Squink says, ClO3- (chlorate) is another story entirely, but I would have thought that people who make bleach would want to create a product that isn't likely to lead to the formation of this less than entirely charming species.
#15
Old 07-19-2002, 10:58 PM
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OK, this was enough of an interesting mystery to me that I began to dust off my chemistry background. What I have to say is basically a WAG, but I think it may have the answer in some form.

I was inspired mostly from the final site that Sigene gave us. From that URL, it at first it seems that the danger is not chlorine gas but rather chloramine gas. That is NH_2Cl. This and other nitrogen hydrochlorides with which it will be in equilibrium are particularly nasty (as one of my favorite chemistry professors liked to classify compounds that were dangerous). For example, NCl_3 that will explode when exposed to sunlight.

It is possible, however, for some of the nitrogen hydrochlorides to undergo some oxidation/reduction reaction I have buried away somewhere in my brain from organic chemistry that will release a Cl_2 product, so chlorine gas is also a danger. I tried to work it out, and it seems plausible, though probably fairly unlikely.

This actually satisfies a nagging problem I've always had when hearing this old-wivish proclamation about never mixing chlorine and ammonia. It always bothered me because I knew they were both bases... so there was no danger in forming a neutralization reaction (ala baking soda and vinegar). I'd also heard about chlorine gas being formed, but as others have rightly pointed out this requires pretty special circumstances in order for it to occur. Mostly it requires getting a chlorides into an oxidation state that requires a significant activation energy or catalyst to allow for it to happen. The peculiar chemical properties of N, O, and Cl in odd ratios together with the fact that they are both bases seems to actually allow for the formation of chlorine gas. Eureka!

However, the ratios of which chloramines and chlorine are produced is the real question. Are you going to die of chloramine poisoning, chlorine poisoning, or frustration from trying to figure out the kinetics and thermodynamics of these reactions in order to determine which products will actually occur and in what quantities?
#16
Old 07-19-2002, 11:54 PM
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JS is right, you make chloramine. It is really nasty stuff. There was a story recently around here of a guy who would mix bleach and ammonia and pour it on his outside stairway so people wouldn't use it. A chemist wrote in to the paper explaining that it made chloramine and that's what caused the burning eyes and nausea that followed people who breathed it in. Chloramine is a war gas, just to put it in perspective.
#17
Old 07-20-2002, 12:04 AM
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I move we do the experiment, since I'm far far far too lazy to work out the kinetics. My guess is still that Cl2 is not likely to be a major contributor.

From the data in my freshman chem book (hey, it's good enough...), I get DGhydrazine to be about -60 kJ/mol. I can't find chloramine either there or in Atkins or in my CRC, so I'm just estimating using bond energies. Conveniently, DG more or less cancels for the rest of the reaction and it's just DG for NH2 + Cl -> NH2Cl, which looks to be on the order of ~ -200 kJ/mol. So thermodynamically, assuming I haven't messed up any figures, JS Princeton has it right that chloramine will be favored over hydrazine. I'm not even going to touch the kinetics or the redox stuff at this point, because I've realized that it's late on a Friday night and I... am doing chemistry. That's really sad.

And on preview, what red_dragon said.
#18
Old 07-20-2002, 12:26 AM
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I'm new here but i think my guardian angel somehow started this thread then caused me to register and come here first thing.

i did recently put clorox in a bucket, add Purple Lightening tile cleaner, and before I could get my gloves on, I was poisoned, roomie had to call poison control, i fainted, instant headache like a stroke, hit the ground. control said to wash me, strip and wash clothes, get out of area of poison. i was down weak as kitten for 6-7 hours. headache 24 hrs. i had been warned but wanted mildew off jacuzzi more than....uh...life, i guess.

DUH! all good posts on this.
#19
Old 07-20-2002, 12:28 AM
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never mix, never sick

I'm new here but i think my guardian angel somehow started this thread then caused me to register and come here first thing.

i did recently put clorox in a bucket, add Purple Lightening tile cleaner, and before I could get my gloves on, I was poisoned, roomie had to call poison control, i fainted, instant headache like a stroke, hit the ground. control said to wash me, strip and wash clothes, get out of area of poison. i was down weak as kitten for 6-7 hours. headache 24 hrs. i had been warned but wanted mildew off jacuzzi more than....uh...life, i guess.

DUH! all good posts on this.
#20
Old 07-20-2002, 12:28 AM
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never mix, never sick

I'm new here but i think my guardian angel somehow started this thread then caused me to register and come here first thing.

i did recently put clorox in a bucket, add Purple Lightening tile cleaner, and before I could get my gloves on, I was poisoned, roomie had to call poison control, i fainted, instant headache like a stroke, hit the ground. control said to wash me, strip and wash clothes, get out of area of poison. i was down weak as kitten for 6-7 hours. headache 24 hrs. i had been warned but wanted mildew off jacuzzi more than....uh...life, i guess.

DUH! all good posts on this.
#21
Old 07-20-2002, 06:58 AM
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I have heard that mixtures of chlorine and ammonia (chloramines) can be explosive, but have not been able to track down anyoneone who has blown up their toilets with it (definitely toxic though)

much more interesting are mixtures of iodine and ammonia which form black ammonia triiodide which is a touch explosive when dry. Used to give the cleaners in the chemistry department a real shock in the middle of the night. Hee, hee they never caught me.
#22
Old 07-20-2002, 07:00 AM
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I should add before anyone shops me to the FBI that I only used very small amounts - enough to make a little bang and puff of smoke but not dangerous
#23
Old 07-20-2002, 07:46 AM
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To clean your toilet or remove mold from anything, use borax. It does a better job without the danger of toxic fumes (just don't eat it). Buy it in the laundry section.
#24
Old 04-18-2016, 11:17 AM
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Okay, what the hell just happened? It’s Spring cleaning time and my wife dumped a bunch of bleach into one of our toilets, cleaned the rest of the bathroom, and left the bleach soaking there to remove rust stains. No problem. We’ve done it a ton of times before. I go in, unaware that there’s anything but water in there, and pee. About fifteen seconds into it: “ahhhhhhhhhhhhh—FOOM!

The water foamed up and some caustic smell smacked me in the face. Holy shit, I think, because I know better than to mix ammonia and bleach. I shut the door, turned on the fan and looked up urine+bleach on the Google and found this ancient thread.

What gives? She insists there was nothing else in the bowl but bleach. She insists she doesn’t have an unknown life insurance policy. This thread says the gas was maybe an anomaly, and no mention of the thick foam. Has pee science developed over the past sixteen years?


(Oh, and remember that it takes headshots, not poison gas to take down a zombie)
#25
Old 04-18-2016, 12:01 PM
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Yes, absolutely. The amines in urine will do this. I've done it several times
#26
Old 04-18-2016, 12:19 PM
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And yet they sell bleach tablets for your toilet. Is Clorox trying to kill us?
#27
Old 04-18-2016, 05:34 PM
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I used to belong to a great YMCA, but I could never use the indoor pool because the "chlorine" fumes were so strong that I would get a headache and a rash. Turns out that this results not from too much chlorine, but too much pee and sweat in the pool, creating chloramines:

https://chlorine.americanchemistry.c...ing-Pool-Smell

EWWW!
#28
Old 04-18-2016, 06:22 PM
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When I was a health aide I had a client who use a commode and an idiotic
health aide poured bleach into her commode and left it in there . When the lady used her commode she got burnt from the fumes . The poor lady was in her
80's or older and was in pain. I couldn't believe anyone could be that stupid and pour bleach into a commode and leave it in there . You clean the commode out with beach then rise it out very good ! Then pour water into the commode to help keep the smell down . I knew a woman that was cleaning her bathroom and poured bleach and ammonia into a pail and she almost passed out, she walked into the doorway and got a black eye . She found out the hard way you can't use bleach and ammonia together and it said this right on the bottles .
#29
Old 04-18-2016, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmackFu View Post
Actually, the danger is that chlorine ion, aka chlorine gas. While not mustard gas, it was used as a chemical weapon in WWI. Nasty stuff.
No.. Cl is no more dangerous than the bleach was itself. that just bleaches the already dead skin and membrane mostly, and anything getting through just joins your stomach acid Cl- .. your blood and plasma has plenty of buffer to neutralise any HCl ..


The molecule of hydrazine survives until its metabolized in your body, inside a cell.. It poisons your nerve cells, as they need a special fat to operate, and the hydrazine changes the property of the fat... and it poisons your liver when the liver breaks it down.

Chronic expose to hydrizine and similar toxins, even in low levels is bad, and resulting in nerve failure or cancer.

Last edited by Isilder; 04-18-2016 at 07:17 PM.
#30
Old 08-21-2016, 08:11 AM
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Thank you! Finally, a straight, to-the-point answer!
#31
Old 08-21-2016, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Sigene View Post
Yes, absolutely. The amines in urine will do this. I've done it several times
Thank you! Finally, a straight, to-the-point answer!
#32
Old 08-21-2016, 08:31 AM
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I really don't think anyone is making hydrazine in their toilets. Chloramines, yes. But hydrazine will decompose faster than you can make it without a huge excess of ammonia.
#33
Old 08-21-2016, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Si Amigo View Post
And yet they sell bleach tablets for your toilet. Is Clorox trying to kill us?
These are not bleach as in sodium hypochlorite. Although you can still get chloramines as the DCDMH decomposes.
#34
Old 08-21-2016, 08:25 PM
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The reaction between urea and hypochlorite is complicated. There are several things going on in the reaction, and it depends on reactant ratios and concentration, as well as pH.

Generally most of the gas produced will be nitrogen and carbon dioxide, but some chloramine comes out as well. Hydrazine is transiently produced in the reaction, but generally it will get oxidized by hypochlorite at a much more rapid rate than the urea does.

Chloramine is kind of unstable too, in solution in water (especially at higher concentrations) it gradually decomposes.

The first step in the reaction is the oxidation of urea to a partial radical. H2NCON:
(If I remember correctly) this radical then hydrolyzes with a another molecule of water and reforms into carbon dioxide.

Last edited by Zach29; 08-21-2016 at 08:29 PM.
#35
Old 08-22-2016, 04:09 PM
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Sooo. I did heavy piss on a clorax filled toilet more than once. And I swear my eyes soaked. Hydrazine? Some other HCl2O7U2 chemical? Or just my imagination?

Last edited by yo han go; 08-22-2016 at 04:12 PM.
#36
Old 08-22-2016, 04:47 PM
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Does this have anything to do with jellyfish stings? They're dangerous too, but not banned-by-Geneva dangerous.
#37
Old 08-22-2016, 04:51 PM
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To my understanding, chlorine plus urea creates chloramine. When you go to a pool and it smells like pool, what you're smelling is chloramine, the piss of a thousand small children.

Absolutely don't mix ammonia and chlorine because you will physically die. But urine doesn't convert to ammonia without a lot of bacterial activity.
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