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#1
Old 01-13-2003, 06:26 PM
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Was Jaimie Lee Curtis born a hermaphrodite?

It is not my intention to insult or slander the actress, but I have heard numerous rumors that Jamie Lee Curtis was born a hermaphrodite. I've tried to research this myself but the most conclusive answer I was able to glean was "maybe". I must know!
#2
Old 01-13-2003, 06:30 PM
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Hmmm
#3
Old 01-13-2003, 06:32 PM
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Perhaps 'maybe' is the best you're ever going to get; not everybody is entirely comfortable discussing the precise configuration of their genitals - just because she is an actress, she is under no greater obligation than the rest of us.
#4
Old 01-13-2003, 06:34 PM
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Wasn't this answered in the column once?
#5
Old 01-13-2003, 06:36 PM
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I tried searching the various databases on TSD, but got not hits either for "Jaimie Lee Curtis" (tried a couple of spellings of her name) or for "hermaphrodite". I thought it very odd that "hermaphrodite" did not return any hits, knowing the audience . . .
#6
Old 01-13-2003, 06:44 PM
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G'day

The rumour I heard was not that she was a hermaphrodite, but that she is genetically male with androgen insensitivity syndrome. But even if that were true, how would anyone know? Most AIS patients are themselves unaware of their condition until they go to a fertility clinic or attempt to compete in the Olympics.

My guess is that the rumour was started by someone jealous of Ms. Curtiss's looks.

Regards,


Agback
#7
Old 01-13-2003, 06:44 PM
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According to the Discovery Channel, other documentaries, most biology teachers, and many other things I read and saw, Jamie was born with XY chromosones, and is, therefore, according to the World Olympics committe, a male.

To me, I consider her a female, that is what Tony Curtis, Janet Leigh chose to raise her, and who she is choosing to live as.

She looks very butch to me, with mannish features, and more so all the time. She looks like a man who has taken female hormones.

The doctors offices leaked out that she had xy chromosones.

Jamie, with xy chromosones, cannot bear children, and therefore, adopted 2 chidren.

As far as being a hemephrodite(having both sexes), that is just a rumor, and I dont believe so. She was not in the hospital very long as a baby, so if they did an operation to make her female, I dont know when it would have been done. In press releases and in the news, Jamie was announced as a "baby girl" as soon as she was born.
#8
Old 01-13-2003, 06:52 PM
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Alas, there is no evidence for any of the claims in Susanann's post.
#9
Old 01-13-2003, 06:55 PM
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Uh, do you have a cite for that XY chromosome claim, Susanann?
#10
Old 01-13-2003, 07:03 PM
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Well she's got a damn fine set of cans for a guy!
#11
Old 01-13-2003, 07:24 PM
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To echo Zoggie: is there a citation for Susanann's information?

A search of the Discovery Chnnel and Discovery Health websites came up with nothing: I tried
"Jamie Leigh Curtis", "intergender" and "hermaphrodite". If there had been a program such as the one described (and maybe there was), you'd think something would come up under one of those searches.

The Snopes.com site listed by a previous writer provides an article saying that the story has been circulated, but was, as of the time of that writing, unconfirmed. A check of urbanlegends.com comes up with the same. The urbanlegends.com site adds that a Baltimore Sun article is sometimes cited as authority, but that the real article as published said nothing whatever about Curtis.

No offense is intended, but the assertion that Curtis made a statement sometime somewhere on a talk show is one I've heard before, and in and of itself it makes me suspicious.

For twenty years people have been telling me that an executive with Proctor & Gamble has "recently" admitted on a national talk show that his company gives financial support to organized Satanism. Similarly, I remember a time back in the late 1970s when "everybody knew" that Farrah Fawcett and/or Olivia Newton John had announced on The Tonight Show that she was gay.

It is entirely possible that Curtis is genetically male. But I remain highly doubtful that she has ever gone on record as acknowledging this.

And yes, I thought that this question had been addressed by Cecil in the past, and that he had said that condition in question was called "testicular feminization" (something else I looked for at the Discovery sites without success), and that Curtis had never confirmed the stories. A search of the Straight Dope archive came up with nothing though.
#12
Old 01-13-2003, 07:55 PM
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Here is the Snopes page on Jamie Lee.
Quote:
As only someone who has seen True Lies can say, if that's not all woman, then maybe we need to rethink what is. And while we're at it, let's see if we can't rethink what's a fit topic for gossip and what isn't.
#13
Old 01-13-2003, 07:58 PM
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Cecil *did* write on it...

I just can't find it.
#14
Old 01-13-2003, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Chance
Cecil *did* write on it...

I just can't find it.
He didn't write a column on it -- he commented on the question on the old AOL boards, which comment (along with others) is appended to one of his books.
#15
Old 01-13-2003, 08:04 PM
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"Most biology teachers"?? How many have you talked to?
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Old 01-13-2003, 08:05 PM
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And IIRC, Cecil's answer was it's "nunuvyerbizniz" or words to that effect. susanann's comments do not fit with the medical model of testicular feminization (aka androgen insensitivity syndrome).
#17
Old 01-13-2003, 08:12 PM
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I read an article recently which suggested that babies born of 'indeterminate sex' are not as uncommon as you might think.

According to the research this journo had done - as many as 1 birth in 200 has 'gender complications' and 1 in 5 of those require the parents to make a 'gender decision' and the child to undergo follow-up surgery/hormone treatment etc. to "better determine their sex".

Shocked me at the time - but when you realise that sex is a complex issue which cannot be totally determined by any one physical factor - I suppose 'issues' are not that unusual.

As for JLC - I've no idea, but with the 1/200 and 1/1000 figures - SOME 'famous' people have to be included surely...

TTFN

JP
#18
Old 01-13-2003, 08:17 PM
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It would be nice if susanann would, for once, return to a thread and back up fantastic and somewhat unbelieveable statements like that. Hey, a guy can dream.
#19
Old 01-13-2003, 08:39 PM
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Heckfire, Unc, I'd just be happy to find out what "chromosones, committe and hemephrodite" mean.

That's a LOT of reckless data to spew without some sort of cite to back it up.

Most biology teachers are angry right now about those assertions (I've polled 53% of them already).
#20
Old 01-13-2003, 08:40 PM
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Even if she does have AIS, a few things about that condition should be pointed out:

1 - In the case of complete AIS, it often is not detected until puberty - the individual is, to all external appearances, female.

2 - By the time it is detected at puberty (lack of onset of menstruation), the individual has grown up thinking of themselves as female, whatever their chromosomes might say, and will probably continue to do so. Particularly since their external appearance will be that of a normally developed woman. Best that they think of themselves as a woman who happens to be infertile, similar to women who are infertile for any number of other reasons.

A program on NPR about this condition actually mentioned that many women who have it tend to be tall and quite striking in appearance, and have flawless skin, oddly enough (the doctor being interviewed commented that they often looked like fashion models). That, and the fact that JLC has adopted might be considered circumstantial evidence, but we can't no for sure, and, at the end of the day, it's really none of our business.

Background on AIS:

http://geneclinics.org/profiles/androgen/
#21
Old 01-13-2003, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Susanann
According to the Discovery Channel, other documentaries, most biology teachers, and many other things I read and saw...
Would there be any non-anecdotal evidence to any of this which you would share with me here?
#22
Old 01-13-2003, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by maralinn
"Most biology teachers"?? How many have you talked to?
Four out of five biology teachers recommend Jamie Lee Curtis to their students who chew gum.
#23
Old 01-13-2003, 09:32 PM
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If she is the product of corrective surgery, she definitely got her money's worth.

Yowza!
#24
Old 01-13-2003, 10:02 PM
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The snopes article, referenced first by Mangetout and within a mere 4 minutes of the OP, treats this question pretty well. [aside] Some of the subsequent comments in this thread make me wonder if the posters bothered to follow the link provided. [/aside]

The only thing I would add that the snopes article doesn't state the case as strongly as it might, beginning the discussion with a very weak: "We may never know." For the benefit of those who remain determined to cling to this ill-gotten smear campaign, I'd add a line that says something like "Although we're unlikely ever to have visual proof that confirms or denies this rumor, there is absolutely no evidence AT ALL to believe the Jamie Lee is anything other than female."


If you want to learn more about this condition without wading through medical journals or scholarly articles or waiting for the next broadcast of the right Discovery channel show, I'd recommend Jeffrey Eugenides' recent (2002) novel, "Middlesex," whose first person narrator is 'intersex', as a result of androgen insensitivity.
As a 40-year-old male, the narrator recounts her family history, the gene responsible for the condition, and her experience growing up as a female with no suspicions to the contrary until age 14. Makes for a good read and may help to disabuse you of any lingering obsessions you have about Jamie Lee.
#25
Old 01-13-2003, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
According to the Discovery Channel, other documentaries, most biology teachers, and many other things I read and saw, Jamie was born with XY chromosones, and is, therefore, according to the World Olympics committe, a male.
<snip>
The doctors offices leaked out that she had xy chromosones.
Rather than just an inspecific request of "cite", I would like to request (1) the name and date of the program on the Discovery Channel (2) the names of some of the "other documentaries" (3) the names of the magazine articles (and magazine and date) or newspaper articles (and paper and date) or books that reported this "fact" and (4) the place that the doctor's office leaked to (paper and date of article or magazine and date of article or channel and date of news broadcast).
#26
Old 01-13-2003, 10:28 PM
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My graduate and undergraduate work was in sexual differentiation. I was at a conference on sexual differentiation with many of the notable professors in the field about 7 years ago. We were out drinking after the conference one night when this subject came up. Many of the "experts" swore that this rumor is true.

What does this mean? Nothing except that even respected researchers in sexual differentiation do indeed believe this and at least one that I know brings it up in his undergraduate classes. That doesn't mean that it is true in the least but it does lend credit to the claim that students heard it from their professors in a biology class or other related discipline. Urban legend or not, many educated people are more likely to believe this rumor when they hear from a professor in the field.
#27
Old 01-13-2003, 10:50 PM
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Uh, do you have a cite for that XY chromosome claim, Susanann?
Well, I am certainly not Susanann, nor do I make any claims as to the validity of these sites (didn't sift through them), but there are indeed a few references made to JLC having been born with XY chromosomes.

Jamie Lee Curtis + XY Chromosomes

True, rumor, nasty gossip, as Snopes says, I doubt anyone but her closest relatives and doctors know for sure. Doesn't make any difference to me. She identifies herself as a woman, and I find the evidence put forth, er..eye-popping?

Methinks it's time to rent "True Lies" again
#28
Old 01-13-2003, 11:41 PM
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I have to preface this by asking:

Why the heck would anyone care if Jamie Lee Curtis has XY chromosomes.

The reason I ask is:

1. She lives as a woman
2. She dresses like a woman
3. She LOOKS like a woman (A really hot woman, by most accounts).

As far as I'm concerned, she's a woman.

That being said, one of the reasons I had heard for people spreading this (In my opinion) malicious rumour, is jealousy.

Jamie Lee Curtis is hot. She's in her 40's and has a body that I didn't even have in my 20's when I was working out twice a day. She's been a sex symbol for almost 30 years. She looks good.

People get jealous of that - either because they don't look like that, or can't date someone who does.

As far as I'm concerned, the rumour should be treated as totally false, until Ms. Curtis decides to tell the world otherwise.

Al.

Sorry for the sanctimoniousness, but this has always cheesed me off. People sprouting "Cites" and "Proof", when really the only substantial thing they have is a bad attitude. And no, I am not refering to any of you folks that actually linked to a web site, or did a little reading before making your posts.
#29
Old 01-14-2003, 12:55 AM
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About 1 in 2000 people are born with "sexually ambiguous genitalia." There are a myriad of reasons for this but the one I've heard most in reference to the lovely actress is AIS.

http://ifas.org.au/congenital_intersex.html

Quote:
androgen insensitivity syndrome a genetic condition occurring in approximately 1 in 20,000 individuals, in which a fetus with male chromosomes lacks the capacity to respond to the male hormones its embryonic testes produce. As a result, the fetus often grows into an unusually beautiful woman, with long legs, clear skin, ample breasts and thick hair. A number of famous models and actresses are thought to have androgen insensitivity syndrome. Yet women with A.I.S. lack normal reproductive organs and are infertile. With AIS, the body's cells fail to respond to testosterone and cannot absorb either fetal or pubertal androgens.

Those with the complete form of AIS are born with XY (male) chromosomes, internal testes and female genitals. Their vaginas may be short or nearly absent, which is related to their absent uterus and cervix. However, because cells fail to respond to testosterone, there are no epididymis, vas deferens or seminal vessicles either. Without medical intervention, these children usually experience feminine puberty, because testes produce estrogen as well as testosterone. For this reason, AIS used to be labeled "testicular feminization."
#30
Old 01-14-2003, 01:51 AM
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Like the Tootsie Roll owl said,

the world may never know.
#31
Old 01-14-2003, 01:58 AM
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I don't care what her chromosomes say, the woman has an amazing body.

Take a look.
#32
Old 01-14-2003, 02:37 AM
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Unless you intend to get a lot closer than it is likely you ever will, what difference does it make?

There used to be stories that Babe Didrickson Zaharias must be a man. A mere woman couldn't possibly have such athletic talent!
#33
Old 01-14-2003, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sue Duhnym
I don't care what her chromosomes say, the woman has an amazing body.

Take a look.
Don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but for at least 10 years, all pictures of her have been manipulated to some degree. As a part of her alcoholism therapy, she published pictures of herself as she really looks a few months ago.

Take a look.

Not bad for a 43 year old woman, but hardly the perfect body we're used to seeing.
#34
Old 01-14-2003, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Susanann
[B]According to the Discovery Channel, other documentaries, most biology teachers, and many other things I read and saw, Jamie was born with XY chromosones, and is, therefore, according to the World Olympics committe, a male.

To me, I consider her a female, that is what Tony Curtis, Janet Leigh chose to raise her, and who she is choosing to live as.

She looks very butch to me, with mannish features, and more so all the time. She looks like a man who has taken female hormones.
See, the problem with this line of reasoning is that someone who actually is an "XY female" usually looks more feminine than usual, not less.

These women (despite their chromosomes, they ARE women) are, as has been mentioned, tall, with "flawless" skin, and ample female curves. While the hair on their heads is thick and full it is scanty or entirely absent elsewhere (armpits, crotch, legs) The do not exhibit unusual muscle development (in fact, they probably put muscle on slower than chromosomally normal women) You see, XX women also produce small amounts of testosterone and respond to it - XY women do not respond to testosterone at all. Pump an XX women full of testosterone she'll not only grow muscles, she'll wind up with a beard as well and a lower voice. Do that to an XY female and it will have no effect - she'll still have that flawless skin, that hairless, chin, and her voice won't change.

Now, there ARE other conditions that can lead to "intersex". I had a friend in high school who had the one where her adrenal glands overproduced testosterone - she looked sort of mannish, no doubt the 5 o'clock shadow helped. (She got hormone treatments and electrolysis). Whether this was a life-long problem present from and involved surgery I never asked and frankly don't care either way. IF Jamie Lee is intersex (which I highly doubt anyhow, just on lack of solid evidence) I'd say it's more likely to be one of the adrenal gland based disorders rather than the XY female situation.

However, it IS perfectly possible to be a very athletic, tall, long-legged, sexy woman without having a disorder.
#35
Old 01-14-2003, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Susanann
According to the Discovery Channel, other documentaries, most biology teachers, and many other things I read and saw, Jamie was born with XY chromosones, and is, therefore, according to the World Olympics committe, a male.

To me, I consider her a female, that is what Tony Curtis, Janet Leigh chose to raise her, and who she is choosing to live as.

She looks very butch to me, with mannish features, and more so all the time. She looks like a man who has taken female hormones.

The doctors offices leaked out that she had xy chromosones.

Jamie, with xy chromosones, cannot bear children, and therefore, adopted 2 chidren.

As far as being a hemephrodite(having both sexes), that is just a rumor, and I dont believe so. She was not in the hospital very long as a baby, so if they did an operation to make her female, I dont know when it would have been done. In press releases and in the news, Jamie was announced as a "baby girl" as soon as she was born.
As usual from susanann, we have a bunch of claims here without any corroboration. As usual, I do not expect her to provide any substantive support for those claims so I will not waste much time on them but I will just pick one: "The doctors offices leaked out that she had xy chromosones." HUH? What doctors? When? Where was it published? I am sure they were subject to legal and disciplinary action. Please give us the details susanann.
#36
Old 01-14-2003, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Priceguy
Don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but for at least 10 years, all pictures of her have been manipulated to some degree. As a part of her alcoholism therapy, she published pictures of herself as she really looks a few months ago.

Take a look.

Not bad for a 43 year old woman, but hardly the perfect body we're used to seeing.
Was that for therapy? I saw the magazine article- the "undone" picture published above and the "after" picture, which was stunning. Man, I thought it was to give us all hope.
#37
Old 01-14-2003, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sugaree
Was that for therapy? I saw the magazine article- the "undone" picture published above and the "after" picture, which was stunning. Man, I thought it was to give us all hope.
Note: the "after" picture in the linked article was actually from the movie Perfect and was taken in 1984 or 1985. It may well be real.

Anyway, you're not the only one on the "hope" angle. The last paragraph in the article translates thusly:

Quote:
- This is brave of Jamie. Many forget that Hollywood movies don't portray real life, which leads to many women disliking themselves. Now, all these women have a friend in Jamie Lee Curtis.
#38
Old 01-14-2003, 08:08 AM
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The Straight Dope Tells All, in which Cecil responds to message board questions about JLC's supposed hermaphrodism:
Quote:
Fun's fun, kids, but let's get serious. The sole evidence for the belief that Jamie Lee Curtis suffers from hermaphroditism, testicular feminization, or what have you is that:

1. She has slim hips.
2. Her kids are adopted.

Not to cast aspersions on any of the contributors above, but they had better evidence at the Salem witchcraft trials.
#39
Old 01-14-2003, 08:32 AM
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The comments by Cecil Adams on this topic can be found on p. 171 of The Straight Dope Tells All
Quote:
Fun's fun, kids, but let's get serious. The sole evidence for the belief that Jamie Lee Curtis suffers from hermaphroditism, testicular feminization, or what have you is that:

1. She has slim hips.
2. Her kids are adopted.

Not to cast aspersions on any of the contributors above, but they had better evidence at the Salem witchcraft trials. I'm not about to call up Ms. Curtis and ask because, first, I would have every expectation of being told to buzz off; second, if she did answer and denied the story, no one would believe her; and third, it is no damn business of mine or yours anyway.

Then again, maybe I'm just being old-fashioned. Maybe NOBODY should have secrets. Tell you what, Wheatley, pull down your pants and let Dr. Tyson take a look.
Wheatley was a poster who was convinced JLC suffered from testicular feminization.
#40
Old 01-14-2003, 08:35 AM
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I could have saved myself 24 minutes of index-searching and typing.
#41
Old 01-14-2003, 09:12 AM
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See, the problem with this line of reasoning is that someone who actually is an "XY female" usually looks more feminine than usual, not less.


Ah, you beat me to it. Yes, the reasoning is entirely mistaken: it can't be stressed enough that the androgenous appearance that presumably inspired the story is actually counter-evidence, since it's not a characteristic of the claimed disorder. If she were an XY with testicular feminization, no-one would know.
#42
Old 01-14-2003, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Priceguy
Don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but for at least 10 years, all pictures of her have been manipulated to some degree. As a part of her alcoholism therapy, she published pictures of herself as she really looks a few months ago.

Take a look.

Not bad for a 43 year old woman, but hardly the perfect body we're used to seeing.
As a complement to this, the Chicago Tribune published an article illustrating how many to most fashion magazine pictures are digitally manipulated to greatly enhance them. They broke down the process with a recent magazine cover (Madonna in a swimming pool, don't remember which magazine), and the difference between the two photos was striking. The changes included whitening her eyeballs and teeth, altering her hair color, digitally removing a forearm that was sticking out of the water (making it look like her arms were both down in the water), smoothing her skin, and so on.

And of course we know about the magic of makeup artists, etc., for films, photo shoots, and other public appearances. Jamie Lee Curtis may not be a glamour goddess in real life, but that's true for a lot of entertainers.
#43
Old 01-14-2003, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bibliophage
I could have saved myself 24 minutes of index-searching and typing.
Oh sure, just because you're a mod, you don't have to preview.

There are also at least five previous threads on the subject, as identified by Northern Piper in still another thread that was lost in the Diaspora and now exists only in Boardreader cache:
Quote:
jamie lee curtis - the truth (Last post: 12-23-1999 12:25 AM)

XY Females (Last post: 01-12-2000)

chromosomes (Last post: 10-25-2000 11:23 PM)

XXY, YYX? (Last post: 01-09-2001 08:44 PM)

does she have, have not, or both? (Last post: 06-07-2001 08:30 AM)
If anybody really cares, just search the titles. Or have a little dignity and let this slanderous rumor die the death it deserves.
#44
Old 01-14-2003, 10:02 AM
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So as near as I, a neutral observer, can tell, the evidence of Ms. Curtis being hermaphroditic are as follows:

1. She has a squarish jaw.
2. She adopted her kids.
3. Internet rumours.

She's female.

As to Mrs. Curtis's body, it's true many photos are altered, but anyone who watched her movies from "Trading Places" to "True Lies" knows that at least for a good 15 years she had an absolutely jaw-dropping, ultra-hot bod.
#45
Old 01-14-2003, 10:42 AM
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<hijack>

Maybe I'm just too cynical, but I look at JLC's 'brave' decision to publich an un-retouched photo of her 43-year-old body differently.

The standard take on this is that it was meant to say to women: "See, I'm not really so hot after all, so just buck up and don't be depressed because you always compare yourself to me and come up short."

Well, I say this: the message was really "Hey girls and women, you need to buy all these beauty products to plaster on your bods so you can transform yourself from blah to babe."

The JLC pics were, after all, published in a fashion mag that is 50% or more cosmetic ads and the like ...

</hijack>
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#46
Old 01-14-2003, 10:59 AM
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Well, you can see JLC's increasing frumpiness in the movie Drowning Mona (2000).

Or at least I saw it. I might be alone in that. It wasn't a very popular movie.

She was, nevertheless, on my "women to nail" list from 1984 to 1997, and may regain her position when True Lies II comes out in 2004.
#47
Old 01-14-2003, 11:16 AM
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But don't XY females have facial hair, like a man?
#48
Old 01-14-2003, 11:26 AM
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I wish Jamie Lee would put an end to all of these accusations.

So simple it would be.

With so many making rumours and stating that Jamie has xy chomosones, it would be a very simple matter to end them all!!! once and for good!!! and get many millions of dollars besides, for her to just sue them all in court for slander and for hurting her image.

So many actors and actresses have sued so many others for so much less.

It would be a quick and an open and shut case for her to win by simply having her doctor provide evidence that she indeed has xx chromosones.
#49
Old 01-14-2003, 12:02 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,920
But the real question here is: As hot as she is, would you still have sex with her if you knew she was once a man?
#50
Old 01-14-2003, 12:03 PM
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Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Uberwald
Posts: 1,517
Suzann!

Heh heh, now that you've come back, mind either providing a cite or a reason why you won't back up your assertions?
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