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#1
Old 01-15-2003, 01:20 PM
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Nipple hypocrisy in Fantasia

I was reading an article someone linked from a previous post that said that Walt Disney did not want the Nymphs (which looked more like Centaurs to me) to have nipples, in some attempt to de-sexualize the cartoon or somesuch silliness to make it more 'family' oriented. Well, if that was such a concern, why not do the same with the Harpies? Why give the Harpies nipples and not the nymphs? Was this something that slipped through the cracks?

Granted, there was more footage of topless nymphs than there were of harpies in the movie, but it still seems rather inconsistent to me.
#2
Old 01-15-2003, 01:27 PM
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Cite?
#3
Old 01-15-2003, 01:31 PM
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This was (briefly) discussed in some of the extra material on the Fantasia Legacy DVD. IIRC, the main objection was the screen time the nymphs were getting, and it was a last-minute change. The harpies just slipped through the cracks; they weren't mentioned at all.

And I think "nipple hypocrisy" is my phrase for the day.
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Old 01-15-2003, 01:31 PM
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He also made them draw all the guys with short hair, too. He had a bit of a problem with long hair on men. But that's not important right now.

From the IMDB trivia for Fantasia:

Quote:
In the "Pastoral Symphony" segment there was originally a scene showing black centaurs shining the hooves of white centaurs. It was not until the 1969 re-release that this was thought objectionable, and all subsequent releases until 1980 had an abrupt cut at this point. The current video release includes the scene, but with the frame cropped to show only the face of a white centaurette.
#5
Old 01-15-2003, 01:31 PM
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Kids back then would be all excited to see the naked Nymphs, but not the Harpies. Walt unfortunately did not predict the Goth trend, which brought up kids who would start flogging the dolphin to the naked Harpies.

Just my take on it!
#6
Old 01-15-2003, 01:32 PM
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I posted a thread about this exact thing a couple of years ago. It seems you can't have nipples in a Disney film unless you're EVIL! A real letdown for those good little centauresses.


Cite? Go see the film.
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#7
Old 01-15-2003, 01:33 PM
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No, no skaterboarder87 you've got it all wrong. It should now be, " cite?"
#8
Old 01-15-2003, 01:33 PM
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My WAG would be that while nymphs can be considered "sexy", there is no way in God's green earth that a harpy ever will be, so it doesn't matter if the harpy has nipples because no one is gonna notice in "that way"..
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Old 01-15-2003, 01:37 PM
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According to Richard Shickel's "The Disney Version," the centaurs were supposed to be nude, and there were nipples.

It wasn't Disney that had them removed, however; it was the Hays Office. There was absolutely no way a film in 1941 was going to get away with showing bare breasts. (Though evidently showing buttocks were OK -- see the last shot of the sequence )

The harpies were probably missed. I hadn't heard of it before.
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#10
Old 01-15-2003, 01:40 PM
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here is the link for all you who are still in doubt-

http://harbeck.ca/James/nipples.html

Just briefly touches on that fact. But it had me wondering.

And Arden Ranger, you do make a good point that the Centa- I mean nymphs are much more provocative than harpies.
#11
Old 01-15-2003, 03:14 PM
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Harpies are scary.

Just like female sexuality.

Makes sense to me.

#12
Old 01-15-2003, 03:14 PM
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The part with the nymphs/centaurs always makes me sleepy.
#13
Old 01-15-2003, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Incubus
here is the link for all you who are still in doubt-

http://harbeck.ca/James/nipples.html

Just briefly touches on that fact. But it had me wondering.
You can't trust this. He make an glaring error in the first paragraph. Chip 'n Dale couldn't have been incinerated in Bambi (1942); they first appeared five years later.
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Old 01-15-2003, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RealityChuck
You can't trust this. He make an glaring error in the first paragraph. Chip 'n Dale couldn't have been incinerated in Bambi (1942); they first appeared five years later.

Do any animals die on screen in Bambi? I don't think they do.
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Old 01-15-2003, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by RealityChuck
You can't trust this. He make an glaring error in the first paragraph. Chip 'n Dale couldn't have been incinerated in Bambi (1942); they first appeared five years later.
You're right and you're wrong. They couldn't have been in Bambi, but their first appearance was the following year (1943) in the short "Private Pluto."
#16
Old 01-15-2003, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zebra
Do any animals die on screen in Bambi? I don't think they do.
Umm... don't want to spoil it or anything...

SPOILER:
Bambi's mom isn't exactly in the sequels, ya know...
#17
Old 01-15-2003, 04:40 PM
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It always bothered me that the nymphs/centaurs paired off according to color. The thing with the nipples was just the icing on the cake. I've never liked the Pastorale section... I bet Beethoven would have hated it.
#18
Old 01-15-2003, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ethilrist
Umm... don't want to spoil it or anything...

SPOILER:
Bambi's mom isn't exactly in the sequels, ya know...
Yeah, but unless there's some super-secret version running around she didn't die on-screen.

I never noticed be-nipple harpies; actually, I never noticed harpies at all. I'll hafta watch it again.
#19
Old 01-15-2003, 09:03 PM
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They were ghost harpies, flying around near the end during that "Night On Bald Mountain" segment with the giant demonic bodybuilder.
#20
Old 01-15-2003, 09:23 PM
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I feel I must point out that the correct term is "nipocrisy".
#21
Old 01-15-2003, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bryan Ekers
I feel I must point out that the correct term is "nipocrisy".
Oooooh! Are they still around? I loooove the Disposable Heroes of Nipocrisy! The stuff they did on Spare-Ass Annie was awesome!
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#22
Old 01-15-2003, 09:52 PM
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Oh....that Fantasia.

Never mind. Carry on.
#23
Old 01-16-2003, 12:17 PM
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This whole post is nothing but spoilers.

Bambi's mother dies off screen. I'm pretty sure that nobody dies on screen in Bambi.

Actually I'm trying to think of ON SCREEN deaths in the Disney Animated films.

Snow White No on screen deaths Witch falls off cliff and buzzards exchange a knowing look.

Pinocchio No on screen deaths. Well Pinocchio dies but he's made of wood and is brought back to life.

Dumbo Nope

Fantasia Some Dinos die.

Bambi Don't think so

Sleeping Beauty The witch dies but as a dragon and when we look down at the body there is none. He crow is turned to stone.

Lady and the Tramp The rat dies.

Jungle Book Nope Although Baloo plays dead for a bit.

101 Dalmatians Nope

Alice in Wonderland Nope (well some clams in the Walrus and the Carpenter)

Lion King Yes Mufasa dies and we see the body.

Little Mermaid The witch blows up real good as do her hench eels.

Aladdin nope


I'm pretty sure that the only dead body we get to see is Mufasa.










Back to the OP

I think The Little Mermaid gives far more than a 'kiss me' look to the prince during Kiss the Girl. It's more of a 'You may not survive the sexual encounter you are about to have with me the the mortician will not be able to get the smile off your face' type of look.
#24
Old 01-16-2003, 01:05 PM
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giant demonic bodybuilder--he has a name. The demon in the Night on Bald Mountain sequence is named Chernabog.

I only know that because I am fascinated with Disney villains and he's one of my faves.


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#25
Old 01-16-2003, 01:21 PM
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I can completely understand you not wanting to draw any attention whatsoever to the pile of a-historical bat crap that is Pocahontas, however, in the interests of accuracy/completeness, I feel it is only right to point out that Kocoum dies after being shot by Thomas.
#26
Old 01-16-2003, 01:41 PM
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I've actually heard that "The Lion King" is the first movie to show the on-screen death of a good character. I even started a thread about it.
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Old 01-16-2003, 01:48 PM
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I think you're right on t hat,zoggie.

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#28
Old 01-16-2003, 01:51 PM
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Actually upon further research, the first death of a 'good' character was in the movie "Bambi". Bambi's mother (who was never given a name but was a major character throughout a good portion of the film nonetheless)is shot by the hunter upon entering the meadow.

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#29
Old 01-16-2003, 05:16 PM
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IDBB
We are talking about ON SCREEN deaths. Meaning where you see the dead body. (which is a bit silly since it is a drawing after all) Bambi's mother is killed off screen. They run from the hunters and Bambi pulls ahead. You hear a shot and mother never shows up back at the den. Bambi never finds her body and in fact they never say. "Shes dead" (Jim)

There is a bit of a difference and you could in theory tell a kid. 'Bambi's mom is just lost.' They rarely even show the villians death.
#30
Old 01-16-2003, 05:29 PM
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huh? All the villians keep falling to their doom. It's like Disney villians are negatively charged and the bottoms of ravines and cliffs are positively charged!
#31
Old 01-16-2003, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by I_Dig_Bad_Boys
[B]The demon in the Night on Bald Mountain sequence is named Chernabog
Isn't that Russian for 'Black God'? If you dig bad boys, can you handle him?

All I can tell you is I saw Fantasia's 1969 re-release as a kid, right after I first finished reading The Lord of the Rings. I remember being convinced that that was exactly what Morgoth looked like.
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Old 01-16-2003, 11:07 PM
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Having re-watched it, I'm surprised on several counts:
1) That apparently no great uproar was raised.
2)Why they were there at all (was it absolutely necessary to focus on tits instead of, say, face or hand or something?)
3) That Opal didn't make an appearance
4) That they weren't edited out of future versions
and
5) That I never noticed this before! I was expecting some kind of blurry, split screen thing. But when they did come they were pretty hard to miss.

As an aside, what was up with the whole Bald Mountain vs. Ave Maria juxtaposition. I mean, evil gets to have wings and a mountain and skeletons and morphing succubi and titted harpies. And what does good get? Just some boring lanterns and a sunrise! What's up with that?
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Old 01-17-2003, 02:51 PM
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Bambi's mother didn't DIE, people. Haven't you seen the sequel- Bambi 2002?

"I'm rappin' Bambi
I'm here to say
I'm the breakfast of the forest every day!
I've got Flower, and Thumper
by my side
And I know how to kick!"
(kicks Osama bin Laden)
Forest Animals: USA!! USA!! USA!!

with- David Spade as a sassy new Thumper, Jared from the Subway commercials and the New York Yankees!

(all care of SNL's TV Funhouse)
#34
Old 01-17-2003, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jomo Mojo

All I can tell you is I saw Fantasia's 1969 re-release as a kid, right after I first finished reading The Lord of the Rings. I remember being convinced that that was exactly what Morgoth looked like.
Interesting...when I first saw Fantasia (1971), my first reaction is that that he would make a great Balrog.
#35
Old 01-17-2003, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Avalonian

And I think "nipple hypocrisy" is my phrase for the day.
better than that, i think i could be a...well...you know
#36
Old 01-17-2003, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tars Tarkas
huh? All the villians keep falling to their doom. It's like Disney villians are negatively charged and the bottoms of ravines and cliffs are positively charged!
Hey! You don't have to get all tech-geeky about it. "Gravity" is a perfectly valid physical principle, and I think saying "they fall to their doom" is a perfectly valid way of explaining it.

Sheesh.
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Old 01-17-2003, 08:54 PM
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Yeah, but it's ONLY the villains that fall to their doom in Disney movies. No one else ever does. Maybe everybody but the villains is wearing magical anti-gravity underwear.
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Old 01-17-2003, 08:57 PM
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Re: the Chernabog

Quote:
Originally posted by Jomo Mojo
All I can tell you is I saw Fantasia's 1969 re-release as a kid, right after I first finished reading The Lord of the Rings. I remember being convinced that that was exactly what Morgoth looked like.
Waaaaaaaait a minute ... Morgoth is hardly even mentioned in Lord of the Rings! It's always "Sauron this" and "Sauron that." Morgoth only had a major role in The Silmarillion.
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Old 01-17-2003, 10:53 PM
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Avalonian, 'Nipple Hypocrisy' is a wonderful quote (actually, didn't they open for STP in 1998?), but I've got to give my props to Tars ' "flogging the dolphin to the naked harpies".
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Old 01-18-2003, 04:03 AM
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Re: Nipple hypocrisy in Fantasia

Quote:
Originally posted by Incubus
Why give the Harpies nipples and not the nymphs? Was this something that slipped through the cracks?
Well if they couldn't show nipples, they certainly shouldn't have shown their cracks.
#41
Old 01-18-2003, 04:04 AM
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BTW, when they were running ads for the re-release of the original Fantasia, the harpies were in the footage, nipples and all. Kind of illicited an from me, not only did Disney have nudity in one of its cartoons, but in a trailer/ad for it!

Someone brought up the succubi- 3 flaming naked chicks dancing around on demon's hand, then he does some gesture and they morph into a pig, a goat, and a wolf, then they poof into demon thingys...hold on this plot is getting confusing!
#42
Old 01-18-2003, 08:42 PM
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Re: Re: the Chernabog

Quote:
Originally posted by tracer
Waaaaaaaait a minute ... Morgoth is hardly even mentioned in Lord of the Rings! It's always "Sauron this" and "Sauron that." Morgoth only had a major role in The Silmarillion.
Just goes to show, you didn't read the LotR Appendix. That was where I read about Morgoth, Lúthien and Beren, the Silmarilli, and all that First Age stuff, years before the Silmarillion was published.

He couldn't have been a Balrog! He didn't have any wings!
<ducking & running...>
#43
Old 01-18-2003, 09:05 PM
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They rarely even show the villians death.
Apparently some villains look death in the eye. Upon watching the new Beauty and the Beast DVD I recieved for Christmas I noticed something I hadn't before. At the end, when Gaston is pushed over t he edge of the cliff and you see him take that loooooong tumble down, there is a split second when his face comes very close to the 'camera'. Pause it really quickly then and take a good look at his pupils. You will see ittybitty little white skulls in the center of his very dark eyes.

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#44
Old 01-18-2003, 10:01 PM
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IDBB maybe you can answer this for me then. How do people notice these little things? Do they have too much time on their hands? Or do they like to sit and pick apart movies for any little thing that could be construed as evil/sexual or whatever?*

All in reference to the skulls in Gaston's eyes as well as the people who pick out stuff like the word sex being spelt out in the dust flying up from Simba's flopping on the ground. WhYYY yy?
#45
Old 01-18-2003, 10:23 PM
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Obsidian--some of us DO just sit around and pick the movies to pieces. That's why the frame-by-frame option on your remote (i.e. hitting pause again and again and again) exists my friend!

I don't think that the legendary "SEX" in the Lion King is really "SEX".To me it just looks like SFX and I never saw it as a dirty word till some fundie pointed it out to me...that and the penis on the castle in the background of the original pic on the cover of the original release of the Little Mermaid.

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#46
Old 01-19-2003, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Obsidian Flutterby
IDBB maybe you can answer this for me then. How do people notice these little things? Do they have too much time on their hands? Or do they like to sit and pick apart movies for any little thing that could be construed as evil/sexual or whatever?*[/sub]
The skull in the eyes thing is mentioned in the commentary.
#47
Old 01-19-2003, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by I_Dig_Bad_Boys
[B]that and the penis on the castle in the background of the original pic on the cover of the original release of the Little Mermaid.

IDBB
Actually, the penis appears as one of the turrets on the castle in the background of the Aladdin video box cover art, and the penis in the Little Mermaid is that staff thing that whoever performs the marriage ceremony is carrying viewed at a certain angle. So I've read...
#48
Old 01-19-2003, 09:36 PM
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Really? Cause I heard Disney pissed off some drawer/animator, so in revenge he drew penises on the castle in the original video box cover art. Disney didn't know until it was released, so all subsequent releases are sans penises. But the urban legend goes, it you have a first release video box cover, you can still see them.
#49
Old 01-19-2003, 09:37 PM
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Crud! The above refers to The Little Mermaid.
#50
Old 01-19-2003, 10:00 PM
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Re: Re: Nipple hypocrisy in Fantasia

Quote:
Originally posted by blowero
Well if they couldn't show nipples, they certainly shouldn't have shown their cracks.
But they did! If you stop your VCR at just the right time in that scene with the nymphs flying all around the mountain, you can see pubic hair on them. I have an early VHS version of the film, so it may have been removed. It's tough to do because the scene lasts only for a split second, but it's there. Those early Disney animators were a fun-loving bunch!

And yes, I have too much time on my hands, dammit!

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