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#1
Old 04-23-2003, 03:04 PM
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F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18..which one should I have in a dogfight?

...with guns only, no missiles. Against anything that is currently flying.

My wild guess is: F-15, F-16, F-18, F-14

And where is the MiG 29 in this group?
#2
Old 04-23-2003, 03:13 PM
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Normally, I'd say an F15 without question. But, since you wanted guns only, you're in close. I'd say the F16 would be my first choice. Definetly not the Tomcat for guns dogfight.

Where's the Mig29 in this group? As a dogfighter, I'd say somewhere around the F18.
#3
Old 04-23-2003, 04:24 PM
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What the hell are you people talking about? I've had it with these dog-bashing threads, with people talking about shooting dogs, or poisoning dogs, and now this! Are you people so terrified of dogs that you have to...

Oh.

nevermind.
#4
Old 04-23-2003, 04:38 PM
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This is definately an IMHO thread and I'm sure the mods will be along soon.

That said guns woudn't be a good option in a dogfight as you rarely get the chance to choose what weapons your enemy would use in the real world.

Anyway, the F-14 is an excellent dogfighter considering it's size and weight but I honestly think a skilled pilot could do equally well in any of the other three planes.
#5
Old 04-23-2003, 04:46 PM
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F-16 for guns only. I think it's the most agile of the bunch.
#6
Old 04-23-2003, 04:47 PM
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Since we're guns only, what about the A-10? Certainly its manueverability is exceptional and it could turn well inside any of the others.
#7
Old 04-23-2003, 05:10 PM
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...And if you're going to go there, since gunfights almost by definition have to be subsonic, why not go for a Harrier?
#8
Old 04-23-2003, 05:15 PM
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I'd rather have a Sukhoi Su-27.
#9
Old 04-23-2003, 05:17 PM
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Whoops....that should be 37, not 27...
#10
Old 04-23-2003, 05:33 PM
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Okay, talking to the Col (Marine Corps fighter Pilot) he says it depends on what you are up against and the situation, distance, altitude...etc. but his preference was either the F-16 or the F-18. He also said if you get down low enough and slow enough to try to fight an A-10, that warthog will eat you up. He said the same for an attack helo.
#11
Old 04-23-2003, 05:40 PM
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hijack

Quote:
Originally posted by WillSantini
Okay, talking to the Col (Marine Corps fighter Pilot) he says it depends on what you are up against and the situation, distance, altitude...etc. but his preference was either the F-16 or the F-18. He also said if you get down low enough and slow enough to try to fight an A-10, that warthog will eat you up. He said the same for an attack helo.
I might make this a new thread, but here goes anyway.

How much do helicopter pilots practice dogfighting?

And since it's helicopters, not planes, do they call it catfighting?
#12
Old 04-23-2003, 06:14 PM
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Speed and K.E. count for a lot but with a smaller caliber, faster firing gun the A-10 could hold its own. IIRC a spad* shot down the first MiG in Vietnam with 2" rockets. The F8 crusader had the best reputation and I'm told an unarmed photo F8 from VFP-63 got a kill. The story goes he got in behind the MiG and the godless commie decided he was done for and punched out.

*not the WWI French made Spad but the AD-1 Skyraider, a piston engine plane that went into service at the tail end of WWII
#13
Old 04-23-2003, 07:04 PM
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Airwolf!
#14
Old 04-23-2003, 09:07 PM
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While you're all at it, could someone explain to me in plain language the different purposes and roles of these different fighters. I've seen websites that describe them as "air superiority" fighters and similar technobabble, but as a layman I've never really understood which was which, and why a military commander would use one over the other (except that some are carrier-capable and others are not).
#15
Old 04-23-2003, 09:16 PM
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Air superiority means just that, it dominates the skys by shooting everything else down (allies excluded preferably) and making sure none of the enemies planes go up.

Back when I was in AWG-9 weapons school I learned that the F-14's primary role was not air superiority but fleet air defense. The idea was to use long range AIM-54 Phoenix missles to shoot down attackers before they became a threat. In reality I don't think I ever saw an F-14 loaded with more than two Phoienix missles at sea and rarely more than one. The aft stations caused an unfaforable center of gravity (two AIM-54 + rails = about 4,000 at the back of the plane) and the wing pylon stations were dangerously awkward to load with such heavy missles at sea. Typical load was a single Phoenix on a forward belly station, a single AIM-7 Sparrow on a pylon (they weigh 450-550lbs so could be loaded by hand) and one or two AIM-9M Sidewinders.
#16
Old 04-23-2003, 09:21 PM
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Me I'll go with what Chuck Yeager said (working from memory so don't flame me if it's not word or word)
Quote:
A good pilot in a bad plane, will shoot down a bad pilot in a good plane
In his autobiography he tells the story of telling this to anther pilot when he was test flying a captured MIG 15. The other guy did not believe him and thought that the -15 was flat a better plane. He let the other guy fly the -15 and Yeager waxed his tail with an F-86. Then they changed planes and Yeager did it again.
#17
Old 04-23-2003, 09:40 PM
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I agree with WillSantini. Of course, the said F-1X could jusy do many, fast passes and jjust try to shoot it out of the sky. But, if the supersonic planes went low enough, say goodbye. A 30mm cannon firing at 3,900 rounds per minute tears pretty much anything to shreds. Might I also say that the A-10 carries twice as much ammunition as these "fancy" plans. Of course, that's neccesary when you fire it twice as fast...
#18
Old 04-23-2003, 10:00 PM
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F/A-18E Super Hornet, without a doubt. Assuming, of course, equal pilot quality, enviromental conditions, etc.

The F/A-18E is not simply a improved Hornet, it is a all-new aircraft, cleverly called 'Super Hornet' to sneak development funds through a Congress that didn't want to approve a F-14 replacement for the Navy. (The F-14 is at the end of its usefull life.)

The F-15C is a fine aircraft, but does not have the incredible angle-of-attack flight envelope of the Super Hornet, nor is its electronic suite as modern.

The F-16 series is the jack of all trades of the USAF, but master of none.
#19
Old 04-23-2003, 10:04 PM
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Can I please get the new YF-22 Raptor? Awesome machine.
#20
Old 04-23-2003, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dr hermes
Airwolf!
No way, dude!
Blue Thunder!
#21
Old 04-23-2003, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Billdo
While you're all at it, could someone explain to me in plain language the different purposes and roles of these different fighters
So, this has a lot more to do with how procurement works than some master plan on the part of the armed force. The F-15 was designed as the fighter, but as the process dragged on it became more expensive than anticipated, forcing a smaller order, which drove costs up further. So, the Air Force wanted a lighter, cheaper airplane to "flesh out" the fleet. Enter the F-16.

I'm murkier on the F-14/F-18 relationship, but I believe it's a similar story, with the F-18 being the lighter, cheaper one. The F-18 is also a dual-role aircraft, capable of filling a ground attack role better than the F-14, which makes it beloved of the marines.

All of these planes have many different versions; for example, while the F-15 was designed solely as an air-to-air fighter, there's a variant that specializes in ground attack. And I get a chance to use one of my favorite tidbits. An F-15 can carry 8 tons of bombs. A B-29 Superfortress (WW II era heavy bomber) could carry 10.

Today, the Air Force is buying a complex, capable aircraft in the F-22, which is becoming much more expensive than anticipated, leading to smaller order which drives costs up further. The remainder is left as an excercise for the reader.

Online, I've only got a cite that's a geocities page, which is garbage as a reference, but is here anyways.

Hal
#22
Old 04-23-2003, 11:27 PM
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F-22 anyday, not only do you have supercruise, and excellent maneuverability, but you have stealth. Cant really shoot, when you dont know where they are you know.... lol

Gun fights are stupid anyways... Anyone who gets into a gun fight with a jet nowadays... *Sigh* obviously doesnt know how to use their plane right... Because either you, or the other pilot will be dead by missiles.


F-14's are good, but not THAT good anymore.

F-15E's are the latest and greatest Air Superiority fighters.. Still... No match for the new F-22.
#23
Old 04-24-2003, 12:14 AM
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Years ago, I read a profile in a military magazine about the top Air Force wing. These were the guys who flew in mock dogfights against every other fighter wing in the Air Force. I don't remember which wing it was, but they were a reserve unit from the Dakotas who did it while flying F-4s! That's right, reservists, flying a Vietnam era plane were able to take out the best modern aircraft in the USAF!
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#24
Old 04-24-2003, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tuckerfan
Years ago, I read a profile in a military magazine about the top Air Force wing. These were the guys who flew in mock dogfights against every other fighter wing in the Air Force. I don't remember which wing it was, but they were a reserve unit from the Dakotas who did it while flying F-4s! That's right, reservists, flying a Vietnam era plane were able to take out the best modern aircraft in the USAF!
Yep. The 119 Fighter Wing, North Dakota Air National Guard,(The Happy Hooligans) based in Fargo. IIRC, they also won the contest several years later while flying the F-16.

Off topic a little bit, they were also the first planes to fly air cover over Washington, D.C. on September 11.

Quote:
The scramble horn wailed, and the green launch light flashed on. Capt. Craig Borgstrom, operations officer for a detachment of the North DakotaAir National Guard at Langley,raced to the hangar with two on-duty pilots. It was 9:24, Sept. 11: The chaos had just begun
#25
Old 04-24-2003, 01:12 AM
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Quote:
Gun fights are stupid anyways... Anyone who gets into a gun fight with a jet nowadays... *Sigh* obviously doesnt know how to use their plane right... Because either you, or the other pilot will be dead by missiles.
You know, that's what McDonnell-Douglass said about the original F-4, and that's why it didn't have a gun on it.

They had to fix that problem.
#26
Old 04-24-2003, 01:17 AM
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As much as we romantisize guns in a fighter plane realize that for US planes the AIM-9 missle has more kills than guns and all other missles combined. It's a close in weapon so requires good dogfighting skills while being very superior to guns.
#27
Old 04-24-2003, 01:29 AM
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Well, if Ace Combat 4 is any indication, put me in an F-15(ACTIVE) and i'll ownz0r the skies from here to Baghdad and back.
#28
Old 04-24-2003, 03:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bernse
Normally, I'd say an F15 without question. But, since you wanted guns only, you're in close. I'd say the F16 would be my first choice. Definetly not the Tomcat for guns dogfight.

Where's the Mig29 in this group? As a dogfighter, I'd say somewhere around the F18.
The Tomcat is actually supposed to be a remarkably agile aircraft - the variable geometry wings improve it's ability to sustain high angles of attack.
#29
Old 04-24-2003, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brutus
F/A-18E Super Hornet, without a doubt. Assuming, of course, equal pilot quality, enviromental conditions, etc.

The F/A-18E is not simply a improved Hornet, it is a all-new aircraft, cleverly called 'Super Hornet' to sneak development funds through a Congress that didn't want to approve a F-14 replacement for the Navy. (The F-14 is at the end of its usefull life.)
What do you mean by that? Did they actually design a new body from scratch?
#30
Old 04-24-2003, 03:31 AM
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Re: hijack

Quote:
Originally posted by Jake4
I might make this a new thread, but here goes anyway.

How much do helicopter pilots practice dogfighting?

And since it's helicopters, not planes, do they call it catfighting?
I don't think they practice 'dogfighting' as such. Modern attack helicopters are armed with stingers, as well as cannons, generally. With helicopters, the first one to spot the other guy and fires first usually wins. There's not really a romantic 'dog fight' aspect to it.

At least that's my impression.
#31
Old 04-24-2003, 07:00 AM
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How does the F-22 compare with the SU-37? I haven't heard of anyone taking up the "any time, any place" challenge...
#32
Old 04-24-2003, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by SenorBeef
What do you mean by that? Did they actually design a new body from scratch?
Yep. 33% greater fuel capacity over the F/A-18C/D, longer LERX's, all sorts of room for more avionics (Hence, the Navy is going to be modifying a few into a 'F/A-18G Wild Weasel' configuration. New, larger, airframe, that happens to look A LOT like the Hornet.

Granted, I am only as accurate as Discovery Wings!, so...
#33
Old 04-24-2003, 07:45 AM
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How about the JSF? I've not heard if the Marine version can use the ducted thrust fan in flight... Could beat the Harrier.
#34
Old 04-24-2003, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alien2022
F-22 anyday, not only do you have supercruise, and excellent maneuverability, but you have stealth. Cant really shoot, when you dont know where they are you know.... lol

----(snip)------

F-15E's are the latest and greatest Air Superiority fighters.. Still... No match for the new F-22.
The F-22 is equipped with the M-61 20mm gatling gun, just like the F-14, F-15, F-16 and F-18. Cite

The F-15E is not an air-superiority fighter, it is a fighter/bomber.Here's an F-15E - odd load-out for an air superiority fighter... . The F-15E is heavier and has added drag from its conformal fuel tanks than other F-15 versions. The "latest and greatest" F-15 variant that is an air-superiority fighter is the F-15C. Cite.
#35
Old 04-24-2003, 06:06 PM
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Yeah, saying you want an F-15E in a dogfight is like saying you want an F-117 in a dogfight. It wouldn't do you any good, especially the F-117.
#36
Old 04-24-2003, 06:10 PM
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It's not really like that at all. The f-117 has no ability to take on fighters, while the F15 is a dual purpose aircraft that's still very capable of taking on other fighters.
#37
Old 04-24-2003, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by SenorBeef
It's not really like that at all. The f-117 has no ability to take on fighters, while the F15 is a dual purpose aircraft that's still very capable of taking on other fighters.
Fair enough and you're quite right. I didn't mean to understate the F-15 capabilities. I was thinking more along the lines of the aforementioned F-15E.
#38
Old 04-24-2003, 07:30 PM
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Nobody has mentioned that the F-22 has thrust vectoring, making it more maneuverable than any current fighter. I'd pick that, especially for the slower dogfights using guns. Here's a quote, from here:

"The most obvious (difference from other jets) is the slow speed, high angle of attack region where the F-22 is still completely controllable while an F-16 (Fighting Falcon) or F-15 (Eagle) is completely uncontrollable"
#39
Old 04-24-2003, 08:04 PM
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Thrust vectoring. I thought the Harrier could do that to some degree thanks to its STOL (VTOL?) capabilites. Or is that not as a manuverability thing and just take-off and landing.
#40
Old 04-24-2003, 08:55 PM
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Damn! aeropl beat me to it!
From what I've seen on Discovery Wings and similar channels, the thrust vectoring of the F-22 is supposed to make it ridiculously agile.
#41
Old 04-25-2003, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by E-Sabbath
How about the JSF? I've not heard if the Marine version can use the ducted thrust fan in flight... Could beat the Harrier.
The lift fan in the JSF isn't designed to give any aid in manuvering, it's just to hold up the nose of the plane during hover. The doors that cover it open like big double jointed window shutters causing a lot of drag in foreward flight. Why they didn't just use louvered vents instead is beyond me. AFAIK the Harrier can use its vectoring nozzels to aid in certain manuvers.
#42
Old 04-25-2003, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by asterion
Fair enough and you're quite right. I didn't mean to understate the F-15 capabilities. I was thinking more along the lines of the aforementioned F-15E.
The Strike Eagle is still a very capable air-to-air fighter, it's just not optimized for it. It still carries air-to-air missiles and the gun for self-defense and will take out opposing aircraft if the need (or opportunity) arises - basically, if you're some MiG 25 pilot who thinks he's a hotshot, an F-15E will still smoke your ass - although they may have to jettison their bomb load for maneuverablility beforehand. And they won't do it quite as easily as a pilot in an F-15C would.

To put it in perspective, the F-15E is probably still superior in a dogfight to, say, an F-4 or possibly even an F-15A. Not an F-15C. And in a gunfight, the F-16 probably beats all comers, with the F-18 a close second.

Not sure where modern Russian fighters come in, though some of the fancy "cobra" maneuvers the Su-37 throws out look impressive - and cause chuckles among some of the fighter pilots I've been priveliged to speak with over the years. From what I understand, an F-16C could perform the same maneuvers if the flight control computer would allow it, but no American fighter pilot really wants the "ability" to stand on his tail at zero airspeed in a real fight...
#43
Old 04-25-2003, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sock Munkey
Why they didn't just use louvered vents instead is beyond me.
The lift fan provides more lift at lower power settings and lower exhaust temps than louvered vents, which leads to better safety, reliability and service life of the powerplant. I think VTOL capability was more important than vectored thrust during normal flight.
#44
Old 04-26-2003, 12:49 AM
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Oh, and as far as the variable angle thrust on VSTOL aircraft - that's not, as far as I know, used in manuevering at all, but just for taking off and landing.
#45
Old 04-26-2003, 02:29 AM
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Vectored thrust was used extensivey by Harrier pilots during the Flaklands war and was nicknamed 'vimping' which is rather too close to gimping.

There are two ways this is employed sidewards thrust is the more obvious but this is used to try outmanoever a missile, though it can be used to gain a better line on enemy aircraft.

Turning the nozzles forward stops the aircraft in a great hurry, the pilot may well get bruising from th seat harness, but when another aircraft is on your tail, epecially a supersonic one flying well below its combat speed and altitude it works spectacularly, the enemy aircraft simply overshoots past, does not have time to lock on and is then subsequently shot down, British pilots used both sidewinders and machine guns to do this.
#46
Old 04-26-2003, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Harrison
The lift fan provides more lift at lower power settings and lower exhaust temps than louvered vents, which leads to better safety, reliability and service life of the powerplant. I think VTOL capability was more important than vectored thrust during normal flight.
No, I mean why didn't they use them to COVER the lift fan instead of those cumbersome hinged doors.
#47
Old 04-26-2003, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by casdave
Vectored thrust was used extensivey by Harrier pilots during the Flaklands war and was nicknamed 'vimping' which is rather too close to gimping.
I think the term you're looking for is VIFFing (Vector In Forward Flight), although I like vimping a lot more myself.

Quote:
No, I mean why didn't they use them to COVER the lift fan instead of those cumbersome hinged doors.
Argh. Sorry about that. That's a good point.
#48
Old 04-26-2003, 11:21 AM
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Possibly stealth issues. May not be as stealthy to have the vents.
#49
Old 04-26-2003, 11:25 AM
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Funny no one has mentioned it, but my understanding is that the F-16, from day one, was and remains the most agile dogfighter in the world, bar none.

I've seen plenty of air shows and test flights, and the F-15 is no match for the Falcon. That said, I'd agree that the pilot is a huge factor.
#50
Old 04-26-2003, 11:31 AM
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Aside from the F22, the F16. The F16 is still undefeated in real life combat. Only one of them has ever been shot down by another airplane, and it was shot down by another F16(a pilot shot down his own wingman by accident, so that doesnt really count).
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