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#1
Old 08-07-2003, 06:57 PM
nth nth is offline
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anyone know the weight of solid oxygen and liquid oxygen?

i am wondering how to figure out the weight of these things, so I can compare them to weight of water in liquid form and ice aka solid form.

which one is lighter?
water or oxygen in solid and liquid forms.
#2
Old 08-07-2003, 07:24 PM
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You want density, not weight. A pound of LOX weighs the same as a pound of water. Liquid oxygen's density at it's boiling point (-182.97C) is 1.141 grams per cubic centimeter; more dense than water (1 g/cm3).

I'll let someone else find the density for the solid.
#3
Old 08-07-2003, 07:25 PM
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I'm going on memory here, but IIRC, liquid oxygen is about 9.5 pounds, and water is about 8.4 per gallon, depending on the temperature, ice weighing less than water.
#4
Old 08-07-2003, 07:30 PM
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yeah density. :P obviously, i am no scientist.
#5
Old 08-07-2003, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turbo Dog
I'm going on memory here, but IIRC, liquid oxygen is about 9.5 pounds, and water is about 8.4 per gallon, depending on the temperature, ice weighing less than water.
8.4:9.5::1:1.13
#6
Old 08-07-2003, 07:59 PM
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oxygen solid weighs less than oxygen liquid?
#7
Old 08-07-2003, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by nth
oxygen solid weighs less than oxygen liquid?
No, I was saying that 8.4 lb per gal is to 9.5 lb per gallon as 1 gram per cc is to 1.3 g/cc. In other words, Turbo Dog said the same thing as me, but in english units and less accurately.

I still can't find a density for the solid. Things at those temperatures act oddly, and it looks like there are different kinds of oxygen ice. It may have a lower density than the liquid, like water ice, I don't know.
#8
Old 08-07-2003, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wikkit
[Bless accurately.[/B]
Gimme a break dude. I'm getting old! I'm just happy that I remembered enough to be in the ballpark!
#9
Old 08-08-2003, 11:43 AM
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Oh okay.
Thanks you all.

I still dunno about the weight of solid oxygen or as Wikkit pointed out, the density is what I seek.

Anyone know the density of solid oxygen?
#10
Old 08-08-2003, 01:49 PM
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<http://drs.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=%22...eriodic/O.html>

does this have the answer I am looking for?

more specifically:
Density/kg m-3
2000 [solid, at melting point]; 1140 [liquid, at boiling point]; 1.429 [gas, 273 K]

Okay what does this mean?
gas is ligher than liquid, which is lighter than solid?

that is what it looks to me, so just want to confirm i am reading this right. thanks.
#11
Old 08-08-2003, 04:07 PM
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Yes, solid oxygen is more dense than liquid oxygen.

From the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics (75th Edition):

Specific Gravity of O2 (l) = 1.149 (at -183˚C)

Specific Gravity of O2 (s) = 1.426 (at -252.5˚C)

There is, apparently, some weirdness associated with solid oxygen, but this is not surprising, as crystal structure (or the lack of it) can significantly affect density.
#12
Old 08-08-2003, 04:15 PM
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thanks.
#13
Old 08-08-2003, 04:50 PM
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Ok, but if you dropped a block of solid oxygen into a tub of water, the ice would sink. Then the water around it would freeze, but water ice is less dense than water. So would the whole frozen mass sink or float?
#14
Old 08-08-2003, 05:12 PM
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Thaumaturge, your question is the same for a boat designer. does the mass displace enough water for the mass to float?

technically, weight doesn't matter, but mass does! but most people think mass = weight, so they are pretty much similar for me.
if the ice is big enough, it will float. big relative to the frozen oxygen. also frozen oxygen making water ice means the mass of the solid oxygen is shrinking.
#15
Old 08-08-2003, 06:06 PM
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I was being a bit silly. I realize that the only to really answer the question would be to do the experiment. However, while I do have a tub and could conceivably fill it with water, I am decidedly lacking in quantities of solid oxygen.

Just from thinking about the problem, I'd conclude that a certain thickness of water ice would be created, and that this thickness would be enough to lift a small block of solid O2, but not a larger block.
#16
Old 08-08-2003, 06:15 PM
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well, i guess shape plays a big role too.
if it is U shape, then it will float from the beginning and the ice formation is just icing on the cake.
#17
Old 08-08-2003, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thaumaturge
I was being a bit silly. I realize that the only to really answer the question would be to do the experiment.
No, it could be solved using nothing but physics and a bunch of math. Do you want to know that badly?
#18
Old 08-08-2003, 07:17 PM
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Sure, I';d love to see the math. I'd be particularly interested to see how to calculate how thick the water ice would form. Once you knew how thick the water ice was, then you could easily calculate whether or not a certain sized O2 block would sink or float.

Example: A 3 inch skin of ice isnt going to float a 3 foot block of ice, but it should float a 3 inch block of ice. (Since it would have more volume)
#19
Old 08-08-2003, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wikkit
No, it could be solved using nothing but physics and a bunch of math.
Optimist !
On the experimental side, dry ice, which sinks in water (d ~1.5 g/cm3) will accrete ice from liquid water until it rises to the surface. There are two factors which account for this behavior. Firstly, as already mentioned, the net density of the solid will decrease as it picks up more and more ice. Secondly, and this is probably a major factor, the shell of ice will trap gasified CO2, or for that matter O2. This will greatly increase the bouyancy of the solid. The maths for the second effect will get quite tricky as all sorts of fissures, cracks, blowholes and such form in the growing mass.
#20
Old 08-08-2003, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nametag
Yes, solid oxygen is more dense than liquid oxygen.

From the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics (75th Edition):

Specific Gravity of O2 (l) = 1.149 (at -183˚C)

Specific Gravity of O2 (s) = 1.426 (at -252.5˚C)

There is, apparently, some weirdness associated with solid oxygen, but this is not surprising, as crystal structure (or the lack of it) can significantly affect density.
I didn't realize there was such a thing as pure elemental "solid oxygen" in nature except under fantastic pressures at the center of gas giant planets like Jupiter where it exists as a quasi-metallic state . When you say "solid oxgen" what exactly are you referring to?
#21
Old 08-11-2003, 08:10 PM
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yeah, not natural.
man made solid oxygen.
#22
Old 08-11-2003, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by nth
yeah, not natural.
man made solid oxygen.
What form is this in? How is the oxygen "solid"? Is there some substance other than oxygen binding the oxygen into a solid form?
#23
Old 08-11-2003, 08:18 PM
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solid oxygen is often used for rocket fuel.
that is all i know.
i think it is O2 but it can be O3 or something. but not bind to any other element.
#24
Old 08-15-2003, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by astro
What form is this in? How is the oxygen "solid"? Is there some substance other than oxygen binding the oxygen into a solid form?
What makes you think oxygen won't form a solid at the proper temperature and pressure?

nth, what rockets? Liquid, yes, but I've never heard of solid being used.

Squink is right about the bubbles and such. The calculation is otherwise simple, you just need the specific heats and heats of fusion, and a bit of algebra.
#25
Old 08-15-2003, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wikkit
What makes you think oxygen won't form a solid at the proper temperature and pressure?
Check out my first post in this thread.
#26
Old 08-16-2003, 11:50 AM
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Yes, you've been doubtful the entire thread.

To be more blunt, what proof do you have to back up your assertion that oxygen can't be solid?
#27
Old 08-16-2003, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wikkit
Yes, you've been doubtful the entire thread.

To be more blunt, what proof do you have to back up your assertion that oxygen can't be solid?
Simple but possibly flawed logic on my part. ie

So far as I know elemental oxygen is typically in a gas form on the planet Earth. The only way I know that it can be "not a gas" is through super cooling it into a liquid LOX state and containing it under pressure or in a solid-semi metallic state at the center of gas giants like Jupiter. I don't see (logically) how elemental oxygen, by itself, can be in a "solid" form on the Earth's surface without being bound to or within some other (non-oxygen) medium or matrix. This is why I was asking nth what the heck he meant by "solid oxygen" and all I got was some polite handwaving. It was evident he didn't know the answer to his own assertion so I let it drop.

But now, since you have picked up the "solid elemental oxygen on the Earth's surface" baton, please, if you have some proof that elemental oxygen, by itself sans a binding medium or matrix, can exist as a "solid" on the earth's surface place let me know how this can be because I am dying to know.
#28
Old 08-16-2003, 12:54 PM
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By that logic no solid can exist of any element commonly a gas on earth. We're capable of making temperatures very near abolsute zero and pressures from very very high to almot complete vacuum.

http://dirac.ms.virginia.edu/~emb3t/o2/o2.html
http://aps.org/BAPSMAR98/abs/S1840002.html
http://webelements.com/webelemen...structure.html
http://ucc.ie/ucc/depts/chem/dol...m/elem008.html
#29
Old 08-16-2003, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wikkit
By that logic no solid can exist of any element commonly a gas on earth. We're capable of making temperatures very near abolsute zero and pressures from very very high to almot complete vacuum.

http://dirac.ms.virginia.edu/~emb3t/o2/o2.html
http://aps.org/BAPSMAR98/abs/S1840002.html
http://webelements.com/webelemen...structure.html
http://ucc.ie/ucc/depts/chem/dol...m/elem008.html
I thought it was evident in my post and previous posts that I am talking about elemental oxygen, by itself, in a solid state on the earth's surface at more or less standard atmospheric pressure and ambient temperatures. I have no doubt you can mimic super high pressure conditions in the lab to yield small amounts of "solid oxygen" such as you would find at the heart of a star or gas giant planet to use in experiments.
#30
Old 08-16-2003, 01:58 PM
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There is some evidence that solid oxygen exists in small amounts on Ganymede;
http://distant-star.com/issue4/aug_97_sci-tech.htm
probably bound into other icy materials
http://gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/c...es/showman.pdf
if it occurs on Ganymede, it might occur in the Kuiper belt or Oort cloud where it is colder still;

unless it is being created on Ganymede by the action of sunlight on water ice, which means oxygen will be very difficult to find anywhere in solid form.
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#31
Old 08-16-2003, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by astro
I thought it was evident in my post and previous posts that I am talking about elemental oxygen, by itself, in a solid state on the earth's surface at more or less standard atmospheric pressure and ambient temperatures. I have no doubt you can mimic super high pressure conditions in the lab to yield small amounts of "solid oxygen" such as you would find at the heart of a star or gas giant planet to use in experiments.
I'm sure it could exist at atmospheric pressure; I'll go try to find a phase diagram for oxygen at the university. It would just be super-"Dry Ice".
#32
Old 12-12-2016, 05:17 PM
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Gas O2 (at STP) has a density of 0.001429 kg per liter. Liquid O2 has a density of 1.141 kg per liter.
#33
Old 12-12-2016, 05:22 PM
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Need answer very, very slow!
#35
Old 12-12-2016, 05:36 PM
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It's not really meaningful to speak of states of matter or of densities for such elements. They don't even really belong on the periodic table. All of those are matters of chemistry, and such elements don't live long enough to participate in any meaningful chemistry. You're probably lucky if you can attach any electrons at all to the nuclei before they decay.
#36
Old 12-12-2016, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
It's not really meaningful to speak of states of matter or of densities for such elements...
It was a joke - the thread is so old that 6 new elements were discovered between posts.

Last edited by Riemann; 12-12-2016 at 05:39 PM.
#37
Old 12-13-2016, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
... All of those are matters of chemistry, and such elements don't live long enough to participate in any meaningful chemistry. You're probably lucky if you can attach any electrons at all to the nuclei before they decay.
Within your point as a whole--"what chemistry is" is the second sentence here necessary _and_ sufficient for your premise?

Because I read it so to understand this statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
..It's not really meaningful to speak of states of matter or of densities for such elements. They don't even really belong on the periodic table... [ital added]
Which (not unusual for your posts) strikes my understanding of the periodic table quite hard.

[ In one day n two threads SD undermines my knowledge of the Standard Model and the periodic table. What's next?]

Last edited by Leo Bloom; 12-13-2016 at 12:01 PM.
#38
Old 12-13-2016, 12:29 PM
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Well, to the extent that the Periodic Table is just a list of the integers in order, of course you can keep adding more entries to the end. But the Periodic Table is more than just a list. It's organized into a particular shape because that shape is meaningful for a number of different properties of the elements. Elements in the same column have similar properties, elements towards the top right corner tend to be gases, and so on. All of those properties ultimately derive from the arrangement of electrons around the nucleus, and so if you don't have the electrons, the organization is meaningless.

For instance, if you go down one square from oxygen, you get sulfur. Sulfur is chemically very similar to oxygen, and if you take a molecule with oxygen in it, you can usually replace the oxygen with sulfur and get a very similar molecule. Likewise (to a somewhat lesser degree) for selenium, tellurium, or even polonium (the rest of the oxygen group). But you can't replace an oxygen atom with a livermorium atom, because the livermorium atom won't last long enough. Or, helium, neon, argon, krypton, xenon, and radon (the rightmost column) are all noble gases. Is oganesson? Well, no, because there have never been enough atoms of it to form a gas (or a liquid, or a solid).

This is not, of course, to say that these new nuclei aren't interesting. They are. But what's interesting about them all relates to the forces between protons and neutrons, not to the forces between electrons.
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