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#1
Old 08-26-2003, 01:33 PM
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How Do You Address a Ed.d.?

Just wanted to verify...would you address an "Ed.d" as Dr.? ...just like a Ph.D. or MD? - Jinx
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Old 08-26-2003, 01:47 PM
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Yep. The main difference between an EdD and a PhD is that the EdD's research and program probably had a more applied focus. An EdD fulfills the same requirements as a PhD, however (writes the dissertation, for example).

Of course, not all PhDs like to go by "Dr." It makes me laugh, personally, although from some people I see it as a nice show of respect.
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Old 08-26-2003, 02:49 PM
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In general, the more Mickey-Mouse the degree, the more the holder will insist on being called Doctor.
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Old 08-26-2003, 03:34 PM
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Addressing PhD's as "Doctor"

In acedemia it is usual to address all and sundry as "Doctor" providing the individual has the credentials.
I have known of some wives who also insisted as being addressed as Mrs. Dr. So and So. That is some ego or a sign of insecurity. These same wives would show up on pay day ( 1950's or so) to pick up the pay check so they could make deposit and keep checks from bouncing. By and large the Dr's. didn't have enough sense to come in out of the rain or handle the most mundane of matters BUT were above genius level in their scientific field(s).
A direct answer is to use the title in public and not in private IF you are well axquainted.
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Old 08-26-2003, 03:53 PM
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"Ball busting bitch" was what I usually said (albeit, under my breath).

A former boss had her Ed.D. and she was, without a doubt, the most difficult woman I've ever had to associate with. I'm a very easy going guy, and I like to think that I'm easy to get along with, but she and I just couldn't get along.
#6
Old 08-26-2003, 05:21 PM
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How do I address an Ed.D?

"Hey. Teach!"

My guiding principle when dealing with Mickey Mouse degree holders is to ask myself, "What would a Bowery Boy do?"
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Old 08-26-2003, 07:07 PM
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"Eddie"?
#8
Old 08-27-2003, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by KenP
In general, the more Mickey-Mouse the degree, the more the holder will insist on being called Doctor.
Aren't you sweet?

________________________________

I should have predicted that someone would come along and have to turn this into yet another snarky thread about whether non-medical doctorate degrees are "worthy" of being called "Dr."

However, I believe that the OP was more interested in whether an EdD is at the same approximate "level" as a PhD. And the answer is yes.

For the record, most of the PhDs and EdD I know don't give a hoot, but then the title is meaningless around here because next to Cambridge we've got the second-highest concentration of highly edumacated folk. However, it does seem to me that some of the people who are most vocal about who "shouldn't" be called doctor have not studied at the doctoral level (in any field) themselves.
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Old 08-27-2003, 01:43 PM
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Only those with a Medical or in some cases a Religous doctorate should be addressed as "Doctor".

Thus, "NO" to a PhD or EdD.
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Old 08-27-2003, 01:52 PM
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I don't agree, Mr. Deth.

If it's a doctorate, you become a doctor once you achieve it. IME, only JDs don't refer to themselves as doctors.

My SIL has a PhD in psychology and teaches and runs a research lab at UCLA. Everything official lists her as "Dr. Jennifer."

And besides, what is the difference between a PhD in theology and a PhD in another field?
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Old 08-27-2003, 01:52 PM
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I disagree. I think those with PhD's should be called doctors too. Cos I always find it funny when I hear people say "he insists on being called doctor when he isnt actually a doctor". LOL.

Never heard of an EhD btw, do you get them in UK or are they just a US thing?
#12
Old 08-27-2003, 01:54 PM
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An EdD is a doctorate in education and/or education administration. Most school district superintendents, for example, have them or are getting them.
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Old 08-27-2003, 03:13 PM
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At least in my university experience "Doctor X" was the preferred form of address for professors who hadn't asked you to use their first name. "Professor X" was thought to sound like something out of an 1930's movie. So that would have applied to an Ed.D, too.
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Old 08-27-2003, 05:31 PM
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College survival advice:

Call every faculty member "doctor". They'll correct you if they do not have a doctorate or do not wish to be called doctor.

As for the JD, I met a JD who insisted he be called 'doctor'. It was irritating so I finally had a showdown with him where I demanded to know what his dissertation was. He didn't do one. He kept saying that 'JD' has 'doctorate' in it. I countered that anyone can call anything anything and if he only did three years past college and did no dissertation than insisting on being called 'doctor' was silly and wrong. If plumbers granted themselves degrees with 'doctorate' on the end should they be able to insist on the honorarium? We never really talked again which was fine by me. One more time of him saying "That's Dr. X" and I would have throttled him.

Though KenP and j.c.'s post were on the insulting side, I have also noticed an inverse correlation to (*my*) perceived prestige of the degree and their insistence on being called Doctor.

Just call them Doctor. Do not make enemies of any faculty.
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Old 08-28-2003, 12:47 AM
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Funny, especially since the title "juris doctor" does not contain the word "doctorate!"

Too true about faculty, though.
#16
Old 08-28-2003, 10:29 PM
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Re: Professor vs Doctor.

In my academic experience, for 3 out of 5 the default was Professor and the other 2 (both in the same city) it was Doctor. But those 2 also had or had had (!) some non-PhD tenure track faculty.

So that varies.
#17
Old 08-29-2003, 12:08 AM
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So, DrDeth, is your degree in 'religous' studies?

I don't want to seem personal (if it is in 'religous' studies), but 'doctor of divinity’ would seem to rank below Ed.d in terms of academic rigor.

But your empathic “NO” piqued me. I wonder why you think that. I apologize in advance if I have you wrong, since this is GQ and let’s keep this to the facts.

What is even worse is the proliferation of unaccredited online ‘universities’ that offer ‘doctorates’ in whatever field one would want to pay for. ‘Doctor of Parapsychology’ for a few hundred dollars.

I recall a Ph.D. vs. M.D. thread some time ago.
See:
http://boards.academicpursuits.us/sdmb/...ighlight=Ph.D.

From that, I gather a lot of physicians do not like non-M.D.s being called ‘Doctor’. But a lot of the faculty at med schools are Ph.D. holders and not M.D.s. But the debate goes on about how the Ph.D. is the highest degree and an M.D. is somehow a ‘lower academically’ professional degree.

Professor vs. Doctor at universities can be an easy debate to answer (in most cases): Many Ph.D.s working at universities are postdoctoral fellows and are not professors on the faculty. In that case, they are doctors, but not professors. And most professors (at least in my experience) don’t really care about being called ‘Doctor’.

Which brings me to:

KenP—your comment about mickey mouse degrees almost made laugh out loud—that has been my experience: ~“they protest too much.”

As a personal aside, I had a roommate who received an Ed.d. or Ph.D. in education (I’m not sure which, now), but I read her dissertation and was surprised by what I considered a lack of ‘hard science’ and research or statistical analysis of the ‘data’ that was presented. Most of it seemed to consist of her personal experiences and how she felt about them.
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Old 08-29-2003, 07:02 PM
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No- actually, I am not a "Doctor", but that is my nickname, due to my profession (not going to go into that)- I only have a B.S.

I do agree that "Doctor of Divinity" does rank below PhD in academic toughness- but that has nothing to do with it.

It is the TITLE "Doctor", not the degree. Which is why all Medical Doctors - even Vets- get "Doctor", and PhD's don't. Nothing to do with how hard you worked for it.
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Old 08-30-2003, 09:29 AM
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This has digenerated into an argument about academic credentials.

Anyone with a doctoral degree should be called 'Doctor' PROFESSIONALLY (JDs got 'Esquire' at the end, a whole different problem); socially they used to call 'Mister' and 'Missus' or 'Miss' (see how silly this all is?), but now they are called 'Bill' and 'Amy' (yes, that annoys Betty and Frank no end).

This is not about who is deserving of the title; it's about formal usage, and about as important as the fish fork resting in the bowl of the soup-spoon on the right instead of outside on the left.

If you want to get all snarky about it, refuse to address a surgeon as 'Doctor'.
#20
Old 08-30-2003, 10:29 AM
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more to the point

As J66 finally pointed out, it's context that helps you answer the question. Within the academe, folks are called Dr. so and so regardless of the nature of their post grad work. Assuming the OP was asking as a student, the answer is that in school, one makes no distinctions. Socially, most folks consider it pretentious for anyone other than an MD to be called Dr. so and so. It's nice, it's respectful and it's an ego boost to those who have academic doctorates to be referred to as Dr. so and so outside of school, but for most people who experience it, it's also seen as pretty silly.
(Personal aside: I have seen many Ph.D. dissertations that were pretty flaccid and many Ed.D. dissertations that were highly rigorous and of stellar intellectual character. The nature of the work reflects the student as much as the program.)
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#21
Old 08-30-2003, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by KenP
In general, the more Mickey-Mouse the degree, the more the holder will insist on being called Doctor.
Agreed. I work with many Ed.D's, and they all refer to themselves as "Dr. So-and-so." This is pretty much unheard of among PhDs with unquestioned credentials; it seems the more comfortable a professor is with his or her academic standing, the less he or she cares about this kind of crap.
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Old 08-30-2003, 02:01 PM
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Hey, waiter!
#23
Old 08-30-2003, 07:20 PM
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I think it depends what the degree holder does for a living and in what context you're interacting with him or her. You bet that when I'm talking to a PhD, EdD or PsyD who's providing clinical services in a hospital setting, I call that person "doctor," as I do the MDs, unless invited to do otherwise. But if I'm eating lunch with that person, it's first names. And if an MD calls me by my first name rather than "doctor" in a clinical setting, I that is what s/he gets back from me. BTW, in my private practice, I give clients the choice. They call me by my first name unless that's culturally incongruous for them. Same at the university where I teach.
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Old 08-30-2003, 07:26 PM
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I wonder what sort of Dr. is Dr. Who? Perhaps I'll give the University of Gallifrey a bell to find out.
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Old 08-30-2003, 08:04 PM
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Thanks for the input. I wouldn't suggest Dr. Death's advice to undergrad college students...it is sure to lower your grade a notch or two. I agree with the consensus on that one.

Back to my OP: Let's say you were addressing a letter to a Ed.d. Now, would you address him as Dr. So-n-So, or Mr. So-n-So?

Thanks,
- Jinx
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Old 08-30-2003, 08:21 PM
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If it is in an academic context, it's Dr. Anything else it can be Mr. or first name, depending on the circumstance.
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Old 08-30-2003, 08:23 PM
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It's truly amazing to me how a simple question, "How does one address someone who's doctorate is in Education?" gets turned into a thread for some of the most stunningly moronic statements trotted out as though they're fact. That comments meant for y'all, KenP and spingears.

The individuals I know who've received such a doctorate run the gamut from those who prefer to be called by just their first name to those who prefer to be called "Doctor." Since they are, in fact, doctors, then there's nothing dishonest about that wish.

Oh, those same individuals also run the gamut from being incredibly easy to get along with to being incredible jerks.
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Old 08-30-2003, 08:26 PM
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Drat! Please change who's in my posting above to whose when you read it.
#29
Old 09-03-2003, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by aaslatten
Agreed. I work with many Ed.D's, and they all refer to themselves as "Dr. So-and-so." This is pretty much unheard of among PhDs with unquestioned credentials
Not in my experience. I know plenty of PhDs who feel that they worked their asses off for that degree and would like to be addressed as "doctor" in many settings.

My PhD sis-in-law uses her title "Doctor" in professional settings, such as the classes she teaches, official correspondence, the lab she runs, and her publications. She does not use "Dr. Jennifer" in social settings, although she could. It is a personal preference on her part.

But if it's a professional setting, a person with good manners refers to her as "doctor." It's politeness.
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Old 09-04-2003, 01:19 AM
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Here are what I feel are the unwritten rules (I am in graduate school in medical research):

1. Undergraduates in a classroom setting or office hours always refer to the professor as 'doctor' unless otherwise stated. Undergraduates working in the lab should use 'doctor' until they check with other lab members to see what they call the boss.

2. Doctors never refer to other doctors as 'doctor' unless there is a huge age difference or position gap (someone fresh out of grad school probably won't go around calling chairmen of departments by their first names)

3. If your boss is a Ph.D. the odds are 99 out of 100 that you'll call them by their first name after the first week (I only have one friend who calls his PI 'doctor').

4. Grad students/young post docs initially should refer to everyone as 'doctor' until otherwise told or a relationship is formed. Eventually you'll be on a first-name basis with everyone in your department even if they don't give you specific permission.

5. Professors in other departments should be referred to as doctor until specifically told 'call me ___'.

6. Use 'doctor' for introductions (like seminars) or correspondences, but it will rarely be used outside an acedemic setting.

7. The older you are, the higher your position, and the larger the age difference the more likely a person will refer to you as 'doctor'


I've never heard anyone say 'call me doctor' in academia.
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Old 09-04-2003, 09:14 AM
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If someone has a doctorate, be it an M.D., Ph.D, D.V.M, Ed.D, or any I might have left out, you refer to them as Doctor So and So, at least in professional situations, unless told otherwise. If they prefer not to be addressed as Doctor, they'll let you know, the same way I'll let you know that I prefer not to be addressed as Mrs.

When unsure, err on the side of formality. As for the OP, a professional letter to an Ed.D. would be addressed to Dr. Thus and Such. A personal letter would depend on how well you know this person. The rule of thumb I go by is this: If the person didn't have a doctorate, would I use Mr./Mrs./Miss?

If my mother, say, were addressing something to DrJ before he graduated, she certainly wouldn't have addressed it to Mr. J. Who's that formal with their in-laws? It would be silly and pretentious of her to address a letter or card to us using Dr. because of the relationship involved.
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Old 09-06-2003, 03:16 AM
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Just wondering--how many of the Nobel Prize winners in Medicine are Ph.D holders and not M.D. holders?

I have no idea of the answer to my question. (I imagine a google search would do it)

But my point would be--who would tell a Ph.D. with a Nobel Prize in Medicine that they are not "worthy/qualified" of the title "doctor"?
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Old 09-06-2003, 03:37 AM
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After posting the above--

I would agree with EjsGirl and Bob55. They sum up what has been most of my experience.

Good ground rules and basically just what goes on.
#34
Old 09-06-2003, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spectre of Pithecanthropus
At least in my university experience "Doctor X" was the preferred form of address for professors who hadn't asked you to use their first name. "Professor X" was thought to sound like something out of an 1930's movie.
Wheras "Doctor X" is actually the title of a 1930s movie. Remember?

"Science Fiction Double Feature
Doctor X will build a creature
See androids fighting Brad and Janet
Anne Francis Stars in Forbidden Planet
Oh - at the late night double feature Picture Show"
#35
Old 09-06-2003, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrDeth


It is the TITLE "Doctor", not the degree. Which is why all Medical Doctors - even Vets- get "Doctor", and PhD's don't. Nothing to do with how hard you worked for it.
Psst... DrDeth, a quiet word in your ear. Do you know what Ph.D stands for? No? I'll tell you - philosophiae doctor, as in Doctor of Philosophy (its Latin). Hence if one has a Ph.D, then one has a Doctorate, and is fully entitled to be addressed as "Doctor". Doctor is not simply a title, it is an academic rank, conferred by merit, and hence, anyone who does have a Ph.D is fully entitled to call themselves "Doctor".

Sheesh! I'd like to see you try and tell the entire academic community, who, in my opinion, are fairly knowledgeable as to who can use doctor and who can't, that they can't be addressed as Dr So and So on a professional basis.
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Old 09-06-2003, 12:48 PM
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If you're at a medical institution, and answer to the title "doctor" you'd best be prepared to run a "code blue".

In most other settings, I personally don't care who wants to be called "doctor". If they say their title is "doctor", that's what I'll call them. Unless they're in prison for impersonating a doctor.

Just MHO.
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Old 09-06-2003, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by andymurph64
College survival advice:

Call every faculty member "doctor". They'll correct you if they do not have a doctorate or do not wish to be called doctor.

This works but its easier to go with 'Sir' or "Ma'am" until you have your facts straight.
#38
Old 09-06-2003, 02:12 PM
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(1) After I once addressed a professor as "Dr. ______," he "corrected" me and asked to be called "Mr. _____." This puzzled me, as I was certain he had a Ph.D., so I sort of argued the point with him a little (which I now realize must have come off as rude or fawning or both) and pressed him to explain his preference. Without a trace of pretentiousness, he said that a college campus is a "community of scholars, students and teachers alike," and that since he addressed all his students --"my fellow scholars," as he put it -- as "Mr." or "Ms.," he expected that he would be addressed similarly; "that way we're less likely to forget that each of us is learning something from the other," he explained.

(2) The J.D. thing has some interesting history. Until the early 1970s or so, the basic law degree awarded at most American universities was the LL.B. (Bach of Laws), with the J.D. designation sometimes reserved to indicate that the LL.B. recipient had graduated "with [some level of] honors." But many law facaulties (as well as, I believe, the American Association of Law Schools) came to believe that a basic law degree merited a more pretigious-sounding designation; thereafter, the JD became the standard throughout the nation. (A few schools might have held out against the conversion for a while, but I'm nearly certain that everyone has now fallen into line; a few schools even offer (for a fee, no doubt) to re-issue new JD diplomas to alum who had received LL.B.s).

I've seen evidence suggesting that some had believed American lawyers would thereafter be commonly addressed as "Doctors," as they are in other parts of the world, but it was not be (although ther reason for this, I can assure you, is not that lawyers view their clients and other laymen as "fellow scholars").
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Old 09-07-2003, 06:39 AM
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As undergrads we were expected, unless told otherwise, that academics were to be addressed as "Dr. X". The only notable exceptions were, in my case, my director of studies, who, after my 2nd year, expected me to call him by his first name, but that's simply a case of familiarity. As postgrads, academics and postgrads are all on a first name basis with each other. I think my supervisor would freak out if I called her "Dr S", and similarly our head of group would be slightly unnerved if we called him "Prof. P".

YMMV
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Old 09-07-2003, 07:20 AM
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I'm a second year undergrad at Monash University in Melbourne, and have never called anyone anything other than by their first name. Please tell me I haven't been committing some grave faux pas. I wouldn't even call someone "Mr." or "Sir". I mean, we have names for a reason...
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Old 09-07-2003, 07:23 AM
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It all depends on the institution, and on the level of familiarity. My director of studies, was for most of my time as an undergrad simply referred to as his first name. My MSci dissertation supervisor was "Dr.", until she told me that first names was OK. Maybe its a British thing?
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Old 09-07-2003, 09:22 AM
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Entertainer Bill Cosby earned his Ed.d and tied his thesis to The Fat Albert Show, defending it as a learning aid. I'll note that whenever the Cos does a speaking engagement at a university, he is invariably bestowed the title "Dr. Cosby" and is identified as such on the end credits of "The Cosby Show". Which brings me to another question...

If you never completed higher education and receive honorary degrees from a university, are you ever entitled call yourself, "Dr."?
#43
Old 09-07-2003, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Askia
If you never completed higher education and receive honorary degrees from a university, are you ever entitled call yourself, "Dr."?
In general, the award entitles you to use the abbreviation, e.g. LLD(Honorary); HonDSc, etc. after your name.

If you insist that people call you "doctor", all that you'll get is sniggering and derision.
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Old 09-07-2003, 01:15 PM
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If it's pretentious for a non-MD to use "Dr." in non-professional circumstances, and I believe it is, I think it is even more so for entertainers, celebrities, motivational speakers, etc. to call themselves "Dr." if the confirmation of such a degree was honorary. Dr. Maya Angelou comes to mind. Puleease.
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Old 09-07-2003, 01:19 PM
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Hmmm... I think we're seeing a major difference here between UK and USA impressions of "pretentious". It is not pretentious at all in the UK for a non-MD to use Dr in a non-professional situation. Its a title that's been rightly earned through sheer hard work, so why should it be pretentious for someone to use it?
#46
Old 09-07-2003, 01:33 PM
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Well, that territory has been explored in the thread. Here, most people who have earned anything other than an MD tend to prefer to be called Ms/MR in non-academic settings. MD's use the term everywhere, and as Dr. Qadgop implies, if someone asks, "Is there a doctor in the house?" chances are that a Ph.D. or Ed.D. would be pretty useless and unwelcome. The title is a matter of deference to their training and acacemic and social standing. In a restaurant, for instance, such deference is irrelevant and immaterial for all but the most erudite and accomplished academics - i.e. Dr. Einstein, Dr. Hawkings, etc. It is generally reserved for the MD's. On a personal note, I definitely understand the enjoyment one gains from being called Dr. When I received mine, one of the first things I did (I'm now ashamed to confess) was to call a restaurant and make a reservation in the name of Dr. Me. Once I did that, however, and thought about it for a minute, I was chagrinned and I'd never do it again.
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Old 09-07-2003, 01:58 PM
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Interesting; I've always been more likely to call my professors in grad school "professor" before "doctor." This seems contrary to what a lot of people relate. Of course, as Bob said, you're on first name basis almost immediately, so it hardly matters.

I'd never call myself, my dad, or my professors "Dr" in a place where I thought it would br miscontrued. However, it's not like you lose your degree as soon as you step onto a medical facility's campus. We have an awful lot of PhDs in our medical center. Now I wonder what they go by.

Do we have a rash of celebritied using "Dr.?" I know Maya Angelou does, and it does seem a little odd except good god, the woman has been given honorary degrees by just about every damn institution in the universe. Maybe at some point, she's entitled. Har. I guess I mean to say, if anyone were going to do it, she's be the one I'd give a pass to.
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Old 09-07-2003, 05:35 PM
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So, why isn't it pretentious then for a medical doctor to use the title doctor in a non-professional setting?
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Old 09-07-2003, 05:57 PM
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Again, I must repeat: It is my experience that in academic situations, "Professor" is usually preferred over "Doctor." Not 100%, but I default to "Professor" in correspondence when they have a tenure track position. (An interesting game we play: the salutation says "Professor SoAndSo" but we cross that off and write their first name in pen. A personal touch as it were.)

It is pretentious, regardless of field, to use "Doctor" in a non-professional context. The "Is there a doctor in the house?" situation defines a medical professional context unless it is clear that a non-medical situation is involved. So, medical context -> medical doctors reply.

I have been in situations on campus where Something Happens and a call is made for a professor. I.e., someone in some sort of authority that knows the rules and can prescribe actions. E.g., kicking an unauthorized student out of a lab. Different context -> different doctors reply.
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Old 09-08-2003, 10:36 AM
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My father was a professor of mathematics (in the U.S.). In my experience, the title "Dr." was not tied to whether the situation was professional or non-professional. "Dr." was used in any situation in which it was considered inappropriate to refer to someone by his or her first name. I grew up in the '70s and was taught that it was inappropriate to refer to or address any elder or superior by first name. Maybe that seems pretentious to some people, but I would hesitate to use a broad brush in making that kind of value judgement.

"Doctor" the title and "doctor" the occupation are two different things. It's pretty apparent in a given situation when a physician is needed, so it's hardly relevant to the discussion whether a doctor of education is going to be useful in a medical emergency.
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