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#1
Old 06-04-2005, 10:12 AM
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Ladies. Your man wants to go to a Bachelor Party...

And you know there is going to be, ahem, "entertainment" there. It's a rowdy group, to be sure, and there has been past debauchery, though nothing that can be construed as cheating (seriously). Though some in the group are cheaters, and it's well known who they are, not every one is a bad boy like that. Long story short; Ladies, how do you feel about Bachelor parties, and your men going to them?
#2
Old 06-04-2005, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buttonjockey308
And you know there is going to be, ahem, "entertainment" there. It's a rowdy group, to be sure, and there has been past debauchery, though nothing that can be construed as cheating (seriously). Though some in the group are cheaters, and it's well known who they are, not every one is a bad boy like that. Long story short; Ladies, how do you feel about Bachelor parties, and your men going to them?
I think there is a movie starring Academy Award Best Actor Tom Hanks on this very subject. You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll feel bad for the goat.
#3
Old 06-04-2005, 10:44 AM
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I was at a bachelor party once and after the stripper left, I overheard this conversation:

"Oh man, after watching that I really want to go home and f*** the sh** out of my wife."

"Yeah? After watching that I really want to go home and shoot my wife."

Which wife are you going to be?
#4
Old 06-04-2005, 11:03 AM
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#5
Old 06-04-2005, 11:06 AM
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Isn't this more of an IMHO question?

Regardless, I wouldn't be with a man unless I could trust him at a bachelor party or strip club. He's welcome to go, and I want fun stories when he returns.
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#6
Old 06-04-2005, 11:15 AM
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My husband's bachelor party was at a strip club in Vegas the night before we got married...

had I not been three and a half months pregnant and feeling rather icky, I would've been right there with him buying lap dances for him and letting him watch me get lap dances...

obviously, I have absolutely no problem with bachelor parties/strippers

then again, i have a wonderful husband who knows what he would be losing should he ever cheat...
#7
Old 06-04-2005, 12:52 PM
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While I don't really understand the motivation behind going to a strip club (why pay for something you can't have?) I think it boils down to a matter of trust. If you don't trust your husband/SO enough to let him go to a bachelor party, how can you let him go to the grocery store alone?
#8
Old 06-04-2005, 12:59 PM
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Opinions sought.
Seems pollish.
No factual answer available.

Off to IMHO.
#9
Old 06-04-2005, 01:02 PM
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I'd let DH go if he wanted because I trust him, but he reports he doesn't enjoy those kinds of events.
#10
Old 06-04-2005, 01:14 PM
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I'm in the "who cares" camp. How can anything that makes my SO come home horny be bad? Just so long as he hasn't had too much to drink...

Quote:
Originally Posted by robardin
I think there is a movie starring Academy Award Best Actor Tom Hanks on this very subject. You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll feel bad for the goat.
I believe it was a donkey. Not that I've seen that movie more than a handful of times, or have it on tape or anything.

What? It's funny! And it has Adrian Zmed!
#11
Old 06-04-2005, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phouka

Regardless, I wouldn't be with a man unless I could trust him at a bachelor party or strip club. He's welcome to go, and I want fun stories when he returns.
Seconded.
#12
Old 06-04-2005, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Tonya
Quote:
Originally Posted by phouka

Regardless, I wouldn't be with a man unless I could trust him at a bachelor party or strip club. He's welcome to go, and I want fun stories when he returns.
Seconded.
Thirded. I enjoy going to strip clubs with my man, but wouldn't have any qualms about him going without me. He's not one to give in to peer pressure.
#13
Old 06-04-2005, 01:52 PM
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Fourted...


I have these friends, she is much younger than he - she was the first girl in her group to get married. When the last one did, a "male strippers - ladies' only" show was playing at a local theater, so of course that's where they went for the hen party. The husband was all huffy about it. She told me, making sure that he didn't hear, that "none of those pwettyboys can shake a stick to my Paco, but I'm not going to tell him!", because, since he was trying to show her that what she had at home was better than anything "out there", the sex was being quite more imaginative and fun than usually.
#14
Old 06-04-2005, 05:23 PM
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It wouldn't bother me.
#15
Old 06-04-2005, 09:27 PM
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I sent my boyfriend off to my brother's bachelor party in Vegas. And I asked no questions when he returned.

Seriously, if I can't trust him for one weekend, why the hell am I with him?
#16
Old 06-04-2005, 09:41 PM
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I also agree with most of the posters so far. If you can't trust him, why are you with him?

I would have no problem at all letting my boyfriend go to a bachelor party. Don't get me wrong...I have no delusions about what can go on at those events. And I'm sure I don't want to know *everything* that went on. However, I trust my boyfriend and know he wouldn't be doing anything that would jeapordize our relationship.

When one of my friends was getting married, the guys had their party the same night we had ours and we all met at a bar afterward. From what I heard, the bachelorette party was way more outrageous than the bachelor party
#17
Old 06-04-2005, 10:48 PM
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What goes on, ladies

I'm hearing a lot of naive shit in here. I'll tell you what goes on.

My friend was invited to a bachelor party up in Montreal, which is apparently a prostitution Mecca in North America. There were lap dances aplenty, sure, but then the groom-to-be chose a whore and fucked her six ways to Sunday.

Oh, but of course he'll never cheat again. I'll pass over in silence what my friend did, who is currently in a "committed" relationship. This is how male sexuality works, people. Most guys wanna get laid by lots of different women. If you give them the leeway, they will use it.

And yet you say, "It's OK that he gets lap dances, but of course he'll do nothing else. And if I can't trust him, then what am I in this relationship for?" As though getting a lapdance were not a form of "cheating" in itself. That's rich!

My guess is that your guys went to Vegas and boned a pro. That's the default assumption. Personally, I have zero interest in strippers and whores and have never once seen a live stripper in action. Not that that makes me virtuous; it's just not my thing. But I do know that guys who love their women can still go a little extracurricular, if you know what I mean. If you think that they if they pay for bootie they will automatically look guity or "different" upon return to the homestead, that's naive too.

If I seem harsh, it's because women's willful naivety ends up tying both themselves and their partners in sexual knots. If you want monogomy, it takes a lot of work. And if you want polyamory, that takes a lot of work, too. Letting your man go to strip club and assuming that he's still "being good" seems to me like the ultimate self-deception.
#18
Old 06-04-2005, 10:59 PM
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Eh. Can't imagine he'd be overly thrilled by it, he's never expressed much interest in strippers but I wouldn't be upset if he told me he was going. He's told me about his previous (funny and pathetic - tiny cover charge but oh boy was he naive about how they gouge you on the beverages) strip club experience; so if he wanted to have a more interesting one, that'd be fun too.

Then again, we're not really tied to the apron strings types.

As for trust, we spent the first year of our marriage on different continents, he among lots of lovely undergrads who seemed very impressed with his bad grad student self, and I trusted him then, so I'd not expect him to be 'boning' any pros just because the opportunity arose, so to speak.
#19
Old 06-04-2005, 11:07 PM
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Yeah, but Idlewild you seem to be talking about a guy who's not really into strippers and that kind of thing anyway.

I did not mean to imply in my post that all guys are sex-crazy. Some guys are and are totally monogomous, some guys are and will bone anything. Some guys are undersexed and monogomy is no hardship for them, etc.

But if your man is into sex plus strippers and porn and whatnot, please don't assume he'll be "good" at the bachelor party!
#20
Old 06-04-2005, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeschines
But if your man is into sex plus strippers and porn and whatnot, please don't assume he'll be "good" at the bachelor party!
Please don't assume that forbidding him to go to a bachelor party will prevent unacceptable sexual behavior, either.

Trying to control another adult's behavior is a pretty fruitless endeavor.
#21
Old 06-04-2005, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan
Please don't assume that forbidding him to go to a bachelor party will prevent unacceptable sexual behavior, either.

Trying to control another adult's behavior is a pretty fruitless endeavor.
I agree. I'm just saying, "Let's not deceive ourselves as to likely outcomes."
#22
Old 06-04-2005, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeschines
I'm hearing a lot of naive shit in here.
You know of two guys who cheated on someone with a stripper, and that makes the rest of us naive? Of course there are some men who will cheat, but going to a strip club != cheating. As someone who admits that he's never been to a strip club, I think you're the last person qualified to tell anyone "what goes on."

Quote:
As though getting a lapdance were not a form of "cheating" in itself. That's rich!
Well, I don't see it as cheating. How is that "rich?"

Quote:
If you think that they if they pay for bootie they will automatically look guity or "different" upon return to the homestead, that's naive too.
Now you're having an entirely different conversation .... no one has suggested this.

Quote:
If I seem harsh, it's because women's willful naivety ends up tying both themselves and their partners in sexual knots.
Bullshit. Trusting your partner isn't naive, and implying that women are somehow wrong for trusting their partners is ridiculous.

Quote:
But if your man is into sex plus strippers and porn and whatnot, please don't assume he'll be "good" at the bachelor party!
Bullshit. Having a high sex drive does not mean that a man will cheat.
#23
Old 06-05-2005, 12:04 AM
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I trust my husband 100% and I KNOW he would never jeopardize our relationship for any reason - ESPECIALLY not for a stripper or a 'pro'.
#24
Old 06-05-2005, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeschines
As though getting a lapdance were not a form of "cheating" in itself. That's rich!
Oh, please.

You mentioned polyamory later in your post, so you're clearly aware that that sort of thing exists. In my way of thinking, and I think in most people's, doing something that your partner knows about and does not mind is very different from doing something you know s/he would be devastated by if s/he new. Yes, lap dances are a sexual thing involving another person. But to me, it's the betrayal of trust that constitutes cheating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeschines
My guess is that your guys went to Vegas and boned a pro. That's the default assumption. Personally, I have zero interest in strippers and whores and have never once seen a live stripper in action.
... if you have no interest in strippers and have never seen one, what makes you qualified to tell us "what goes on"? You've given us a total of one anecdote so far about how your friend and a groom-to-be engaged in extracurricular activities with strippers in Montreal. Yes, some strip clubs have some strippers that'll have sex for pay, and some patrons take advantage of that, but taking that to mean that most guys at bachelor parties end up banging strippers, or that a random guy with no known history of cheating is "likely" to do so just doesn't follow.

My own experience with strippers is limited to talking to a few on the internet, so I can't exactly give statistics or anything... but they all worked/had worked at clubs where whoring was definitely not allowed, for fear of legal repercussions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeschines
Letting your man go to strip club and assuming that he's still "being good" seems to me like the ultimate self-deception.
So what do you suggest we "naive" women do, hmm? Go into Mommy-mode and tell our partners where they can go, with whom, and when and assume that'll keep them from cheating?

I really hate the old "men are wicked and sex-crazed and cannot be trusted" way of thinking, no matter who it comes from, and don't understand how people can live like that.

As for my own gentleman companion, I'd be very surprised if he WANTED to go to one... but if he did, I'd send him off with no worries and just ask him to be back by dawn if he can manage it.
#25
Old 06-05-2005, 01:16 AM
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I suppose I am a prude.

I do not want my man going anywhere to watch naked women dance. He would not like for me to go anywhere where naked men are dancing.

It's not a matter of trust. I trust him completely.

We've both agreed on this so everything is copacetic. We've also agreed that any time either of us gets a hankering for naked dance we'll give each other a show worth watching.
#26
Old 06-05-2005, 02:34 AM
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I'm not the one who determines what my husband will do or won't do. I don't "let" him do anything and the reverse is true also. Neither of us wants to screw that up. I don't anticipate any changes. Life has twists and turns, but I've never met a better match or companion for me. And I love him dearly.
#27
Old 06-05-2005, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Misnomer
You know of two guys who cheated on someone with a stripper, and that makes the rest of us naive?
I think it's prima facie naive/clueless to say, "My honey can go to the strip club, and that's fine with me. And of course he would never do anything but just look." It's like thinking that a drunk can go to a wine-tasting and not get loaded.

Quote:
Of course there are some men who will cheat, but going to a strip club != cheating.
It's getting off on the sexuality of a woman who is not you. Looking at a naked woman and getting sexually excited is on the same continuum as screwing another woman. Obviously, the latter is much riskier, but to laugh the former off as just "boys having fun" or whatever is a mistake, I think.

You are of course free to determine what is right and wrong in your own relationship, but, to my mind, the freedom to look at real-live naked women is already Polyamory Lite.

Quote:
As someone who admits that he's never been to a strip club, I think you're the last person qualified to tell anyone "what goes on."
By all means, ask men who are truly in the know and find out if my story represents what is typical.

Quote:
Now you're having an entirely different conversation .... no one has suggested [that men might look different coming home once they have boned pros, etc.].
Sorry, I skipped a few steps in my argument. People here are saying they "asked no questions" after the hub returned from Vegas, etc. Meaning, I suppose, that they felt comfortable A) sending him off to an "event" in Vegas, followed by B) complete trust that he did nothing once he got back. The implication--and I could be wrong--is that they would *know* if something had happened. I'm saying that the hound can chew on the meat without looking guilty later. Your trust may be misplaced, and you'll never know it.
Quote:
Bullshit. Trusting your partner isn't naive, and implying that women are somehow wrong for trusting their partners is ridiculous.
No, I say it's "bullshit" to let, explicitly, men enjoy strippers' dancing and assume that that's as far as it will go.
Quote:
Bullshit. Having a high sex drive does not mean that a man will cheat.
Perhaps, but a high sex drive (common) combined with a man's innate desire to have sex with multiple partners (ie, monogamy isn't hard-wired) combined with a wife's explicit permission to enjoy only *thus much* is a receipt for disaster.
#28
Old 06-05-2005, 03:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfbabe
You mentioned polyamory later in your post, so you're clearly aware that that sort of thing exists. In my way of thinking, and I think in most people's, doing something that your partner knows about and does not mind is very different from doing something you know s/he would be devastated by if s/he knew. Yes, lap dances are a sexual thing involving another person. But to me, it's the betrayal of trust that constitutes cheating.
We agree. People are free to draw lines wherever they choose. If people want to have a completely open marriage, I say, Go for it. But the idea that a man can go and get all *het up* from a lap dance, but it would then "devastate" a wife if he, say, then got a hummer from someone, represents a system that isn't built to last.

But let me make my position clearer, because I haven't really made it clear at all. Monogamy is a pretty unstable and unnatural thing. And being jealous over someone and wanting to control his/her sexuality is pretty small-minded. In fact, I think that our current Western style of monogamy is stupid and restrictive. But if you want to play it that way, then play it that way. Don't wink at your hub and say, "Have fun in Vegas with the live 'n' naked entertainment, but be good." That's like saying to an overweight husband, "Enjoy yourself at the Old Country Buffet, but don't eat too much." Same deal. Preventing what you don't want to happen means preventing the stages that lead up to it.

Quote:
... if you have no interest in strippers and have never seen one, what makes you qualified to tell us "what goes on"? You've given us a total of one anecdote so far about how your friend and a groom-to-be engaged in extracurricular activities with strippers in Montreal.
I'm sure your eagerness to know the truth will lead you to do extensive research on the matter.

Quote:
Yes, some strip clubs have some strippers that'll have sex for pay, and some patrons take advantage of that, but taking that to mean that most guys at bachelor parties end up banging strippers, or that a random guy with no known history of cheating is "likely" to do so just doesn't follow.
For people who would be *devastated* by their husband's committing one little sexual act, you sure are trusting. Apply the principle of mathematical expectation to the matter. If sex outside of marriage = "devestation," then "most guys don't blah blah" /= good enough.

Vegas is crawling with whores and, for that matter, drunk women who are looking for a good time. Sending men out into that environment with the instruction "enjoy strippers but don't touch nothing" is really, really dumb--right?

Quote:
So what do you suggest we "naive" women do, hmm? Go into Mommy-mode and tell our partners where they can go, with whom, and when and assume that'll keep them from cheating?
Here's what you do:

1. Decide what you want or do not want.
2. Take steps to get what you want and prevent what you do not want from happening.

If "sex with other women" is in the "Do Not Want" category, then don't encourage the behaviors that could lead up to that. I'd call it a simple thing.

Personally, I'd like my wife not to have sex with other men. The idea grosses me out. I'd also not like her to have another man's child, and I'd like not to get some other guy's disease. At the same time, I'd rather not give my wife some other gal's herpes, chlamydia, HPV, etc. I'd also not like to get someone else pregnant. Hence, the practical thing is not to have sex outside of marriage. Call it "practical monogamy." Hence, I'm not going to encourage my wife to do things that might lead to her having sex with others. The cool thing is that she has no interested in having sex with others in the first place, and has never shown the slightest sign that she has done so or is planning to do so. So I don't have to go into "mommy mode," and I'm responsible for my own behaviors.

But lots of people out there are having sex outside of marriage. Women defend their men and make the kind of excuses that we're seeing in this thread, but then when the lights come on and it's clear that this guy was doing what a high percentage of men (myself included) want to be doing (ie, banging lots of hot chicks), then it's, "Oh! how could he do this! What a scumbag! I was deceived!"

Duh. At least the women who didn't encourage their men to watch strippers will have more of an excuse.

Quote:
I really hate the old "men are wicked and sex-crazed and cannot be trusted" way of thinking, no matter who it comes from, and don't understand how people can live like that.
I have news for you: Men are sex-crazed. Deal with it. If you want monogamy, plan for it and manage it. If your man can be trusted, then trust. If he can't, then keep your eyes open.

Quote:
As for my own gentleman companion, I'd be very surprised if he WANTED to go to one... but if he did, I'd send him off with no worries and just ask him to be back by dawn if he can manage it.
Good for you. But just because you can trust yours doesn't mean that most can trust theirs.
#29
Old 06-05-2005, 08:14 AM
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I trust my fiance, and would have no problem with him going to a Bachelor Party. A bit of harmless flirting never killed anyone.
#30
Old 06-05-2005, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeschines
By all means, ask men who are truly in the know and find out if my story represents what is typical.


I've been to three bachelor parties (one in vegas, one in ac, one in LA) and I'm going to another in Vegas in a month. Strip clubs aplenty were visited. Alcohol aplenty was consumed. No cheating occurred.
#31
Old 06-05-2005, 09:03 AM
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I've probably been to ten or twelve bachelor parties, from Manhatten to Baltimore to Atlanta. Some were in strip clubs with professional dancers, some were in private clubs with prostitutes. Some men cheated on their significant others, most did not.

I didn't find it difficult at all to resist, and I don't think a single guy who intended to be virtuous was "tempted" into cheating. The guys who cheated were the usual suspects, who any of our friends would have predicted to be the most likely to cheat.

Bachelor parties don't equal cheating, and guys regularly cheat outside bachelor parties, but if a guy has no problems cheating, bachelor parties do make it extremely easy for a guy to pick a woman for no-hassle sex. These aren't shy women who need to be approached. They are naked and selling their product, themselves, aggressively, asking each guy if they'd like “something extra”. That's my biggest pet peeve about strip joints, it takes a dollar to get rid of each stripper. It adds up quickly.
#32
Old 06-05-2005, 09:13 AM
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As the standard-bearing "Polyamory and Open Marriage Chick" of the Straight Dope, may I hereby request that Aeschines NOT be on my side?

Jumpin' Jesus on a Pogo Stick, Aeschines, where did you get this horrible notion that men are oversexed dogs who need to be socially neutered by their wives for their own safety?

Sex is a continuum of behavior, you yourself said it. Men are not slobbering animals who cannot be trusted to eat one cheesburger but not the whole sack! Some men get enjoyment from looking at women yet don't get enjoyment from betraying and hurting their wives! Why is that such a revolutionary concept for you?

And, yeah, as QtM said, you being a controlling spouse is NOT going to stop a husband who wants to have sex with a prostitute.

And, as far as the OP goes, I obviously would have no problem with it. NOT because I'm in an open marriage, but because I trust my husband not to do anything stupid that could cause me pain. There are similar situations which could lead him to do something against our "rules," but I trust him to be able to control himself. (For example, exes are off limits. Yet I don't have a problem with him going to lunch or dinner with an ex - I trust him not to lose control of his penis and fall into her vagina, because somewhere underneath all those hormones is a mostly functioning brain.)
#33
Old 06-05-2005, 11:56 AM
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Aeschines, I think you're the one who's being overly simplistic here, not the women who trust their men not to cheat. As WhyNot says, we understand that our spouses/SOs are civilized human beings with a conscience and a brain, not sex-crazed animals. Simply enjoying looking at another women does not equate to cheating, there isn't an automatic response of, "Hey, that woman is naked, I simply MUST have sex with her!" Just because some men cheat does not guarantee that all or even most will.
#34
Old 06-05-2005, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeschines
If I seem harsh, it's because women's willful naivety ends up tying both themselves and their partners in sexual knots. If you want monogomy, it takes a lot of work. And if you want polyamory, that takes a lot of work, too. Letting your man go to strip club and assuming that he's still "being good" seems to me like the ultimate self-deception.

You are exactly right. I have worked in strip clubs on and off for 11 years and I'll tell you this--the "nicest" guys in there are still trying to get a leg up without their wives ever finding out.

I would absolutely never assume that any guy would "be good" in a strip club or anywhere else. And when they have a group of friends egging them on they might do something they wouldn't normally do.

I'm the kind of stripper you'd want your guy to get at his bachelor party. I don't do anything that would allow him to break any vows of fidelity. But, about 90% of the other strippers in the club will. They will grind him, fondle him, and let him touch. I've seen things in the private dance areas of every club I've worked in that would make your head spin. And these are supposedly "nice" clubs.

If you're cool with your guy coming home and fucking you after he's had his dick ridden all night by women he thinks are hotter than you, then okie dokie. I wouldn't give my guy a pass to do it.
#35
Old 06-05-2005, 12:57 PM
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Indygrrl, I usually find that you've posted my exact thoughts on most subjects, so I was surprised to see your agreement with Aeschines. I've known strippers and bouncers and patrons, and have been to a few clubs myself (the nasty kind ... back when some of my friends were strippers and bouncers), but my anecdotal evidence doesn't jive with yours -- though I do acknowledge your much more extensive experience. Everything I've heard/seen points to the fact that if a guy's going to cheat on you with a stripper, he would have cheated on you anyway. And of course "nice" guys cheat -- I don't believe in outward signs when it comes to that, I just believe in trusting my partner.

I'm not saying that men are angels, and I'm not even saying that a strip club might not make a man more likely to cheat (if he's inclined that way to begin with). But the OP asked for individual opinions on letting our men go to strip clubs, and most of us trust our SOs (or, as in my case, wouldn't have an SO that we didn't feel we could trust). For Aeschines to come in here and paint us with the broad brush of naïveté -- all because he has radically different standards of "cheating" than the rest of us do -- is just ridiculous, IMHO.

Aeschines, I'm going to agree to disagree with you. I argued when I thought you were just being a jerk, but now I see that your standards and morals are so completely different from mine (and those of most of the participants in this thread) that I no longer think this is a battle worth fighting. Plus, most of the other replies to you have said what I would have, anyway. But I will add that I think you went a little overboard when you compared men in strip clubs to drunks at wine tastings...

Cool?
#36
Old 06-05-2005, 02:21 PM
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[QUOTE=Aeschines]I have news for you: Men are sex-crazed. Deal with it. If you want monogamy, plan for it and manage it. If your man can be trusted, then trust. If he can't, then keep your eyes open.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeschines
Good for you. But just because you can trust yours doesn't mean that most can trust theirs.
If this thread had been asking, "Ladies, You've been assigned a randomly chosen man as a husband and he wants to go to a Bachelor Party..." my answer would have been significantly different. If a woman I didn't know had asked me if she should be comfortable about her partner going to a bachelor party, I would have to know an awful lot about him and about the relationship before I'd be able to give an answer, and even then I don't think I'd be comfortable giving a blanket "Yes, it'll be fine." I'm quite aware that there are a lot of men who can't be trusted within a hundred feet of a stripper - I've dated one.

But this is asking about our particular situations with our current partners, not about generalities. You said "If your man can be trusted, then trust," and it seems like that's generally what people have been saying in their replies. The ones who, rightfully or not, don't trust their partners probably don't really want to say anything.
#37
Old 06-05-2005, 04:42 PM
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I'm being misunderstood here, and it's my own fault for not expressing myself clearly enough.

So let me restate my position from first principles:

1. Monogamy is an artificial device of our society designed to restrain male and female sexuality so that children can be produced and raised in an orderly fashion. It is not the way of Nature or a thing handed down from God; although it can be portrayed as either to bolster the myth that it is the "way it is."

2. Men chomp at this bit more than women, although women do too to a certain extent. I would estimate that 85% of straight-up heterosexual men in monogamous relationships want to have sex with multiple women. Maybe 15% don't feel restricted by monogamy because that's their nature.

3. Of that 85% who desire to have sex outside of marriage, there is a continuum of actions that they are willing to engage in. Some will look at porn, others will go out to strip clubs, still others will engage in various levels of sex. What they will do is determined by their own personal systems of ethics, or lack thereof, their levels of risk-averseness, and what turns them on or off sexually.

4. These same men, as this thread demonstrates, have wives whose tolerance stops somewhere on that same continuum. Some women would be "devastated" to find their man jacking off to porn. Some of you, as we have seen, would not mind him watching strippers but would be "devastated" if he fucked one of them.

So far so good? Now let's review where certain posters are going awry:

5. Winking at behavior along the sex-outside-of-marriage continuum is de facto encouragement of behavior on either side of that point, including in the direction that one does not want her man to go. The reason is that stopping at any given point is an arbitrary thing and determined by the factors listed in point #3 above.

If you wink at his going to strip shows, his level of risking your wrath for doing so has now gone to zero. He now stands risk-free at the threshhold of doing something you don't want him to do.

This is poor psychological strategy on your part! It is much better to frown at porn and things heavier, so that he must overcome control and assume risk to achieve even that level of "disobedience." It's the buffer concept.

6. Ah, but you don't want to control your man. You want to be all modern and trusting. First, I ask you, Why did many women 30 years ago frown upon porn, feeling "devastated" and "betrayed" if their man took a peek. For the answer, I'll refer you to back to point #5 above. It may have been unconscious, but it was a smart strategy for sexual control. And monogamy is a system of sexual control. See point #1.

7. As far as trust is concerned, I see this as stand-by-your-man-ism. I may only know one story about a friend going to a bachelor party (actually, I know lots of prostitution stories from Japan--basically a huge percentage of Japanese men have been to whores), but I know tons and tons of stories about female friends and relatives who were shocked, shocked! when they found out that their men had been--*gasp*--cheating!

Of course, the signs had been there all along that the guy was a real asshole. Everyone knew it but the woman in question. I have little doubt that this is plain ol' genetically programmed mentality, further exacerbated by the lack of good men in today's society. You find the best you can and hold on for dear life, naivety be damned.

But don't take my word for it, look at the stats:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dearpeggy.com
Conservative estimates are that 60 percent of men and 40 percent of women will have an extramarital affair. These figures are even more significant when we consider the total number of marriages involved—since it's unlikely that all the men and women having affairs happen to be married to each other. If even half of the women having affairs (or 20 percent) are married to men not included in the 60 percent having affairs, then at least one partner will have an affair in approximately 80 percent of all marriages.
We've all read stats like this before. Doubt them if you wish. Even if the numbers were 20% for men and 10% for women, those would be huge numbers!

The fact of the matter is that a certain percentage of the men you deem trustworthy are not. If all the women out there standing by their men were correct about how much they can trust them, then there wouldn't be such high levels of cheating, and, consequently, such high levels of divorce.

That's why I say, "Naive!" That's why I say, "Don't encourage behavior along the continuum whose further side includes behaviors that would 'devastate' you."

8. But let's return to the topic of control. I hear in this thread that you want to trust, that you don't want to control. But please refer to point #1: Monogamy is a system of control.

In the good/bad old days, the deal was pretty simple: Men, you have to stick with just one woman, but we'll let you have sex; we'll even celebrate the union, the children you produce, etc. Indeed, the system is primarily designed to control male sexuality. But the system had even harsher punishments for women, since they could have other men's children. But even in the bad old days, there was a safety valve for men who couldn't stick with the program: prostitution. And in certain societies (think Japan again) that safety valve is still in use.

Nowadays, however, "control" is *bad.* Monogamy, instead of being the way that the gods/Jesus want us to act (or else!), is a beautiful, New-Agey thing bestrewn with sweet-smelling flowers and accompanied by smiling teddy bears. It's all about love and trust and soulmates and autonomy, while control and threats are strictly out of style.

Or so we kid ourselves. Here's the big question for you: If his watching a stripper is fine (not subject to control), why is his fucking a whore out of bounds (subject to control)?

Monogamy is about control. But control and restrictions are required for every worthwhile endeavor.
-----

I'm nonplussed by the statement that my morality is different from most of the people in this thread. I don't think my morality is different; I think my view of human affairs is different.

I hold myself to high standards of ethics, but, no, I am not trusting. Not generally. One of my mottos is, "Dark forces are always at work." I am also steeped in the thought of the east, including the 36 strategies of Chinese thought. All is psychology, all comes down to the management of persons.

Again, my overall advice is, "Decide what you want and take steps to get what you want and maintain it." Most of you in here say you want monogamy somewhere along that continuum, and most here say that you can trust your men. Statistics would indicate that one or more of you is probably wrong. Trust if you must, but, like Reagan, please verify.
#38
Old 06-05-2005, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geobabe
Aeschines, I think you're the one who's being overly simplistic here, not the women who trust their men not to cheat.
There's nothing simple about it. Human relations are always complex and unpredictable. That's why control is necessary.
Quote:
As WhyNot says, we understand that our spouses/SOs are civilized human beings with a conscience and a brain, not sex-crazed animals.
Men, of course, are animals in the literal sense, and many are highly sexed. One strategy for dealing with these facts is monogamy, with all its individual and social controls.
Quote:
Simply enjoying looking at another women does not equate to cheating, there isn't an automatic response of, "Hey, that woman is naked, I simply MUST have sex with her!"
Actually, you're wrong. A man watching a stripper, assuming that she appeals to him on an individual level, is going to give him a hard-on and put him in the mood for sex. Now, he may think, "She's hot, but she's a slut and probably has cooties, so on a rational level I don't want her," or may just want her outright. But the desire has been brought to the surface. Is that not a dangerous thing?
Quote:
Just because some men cheat does not guarantee that all or even most will.
Apparently, the stats say that 60% will cheat. On average, a woman is in danger of having her man have sex with another woman.
#39
Old 06-05-2005, 04:57 PM
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Kudos to you, Aeschines. I mean it.

I want my future bride (whoever she is) to know that she can trust me. Not only will I not fool around with strippers, I will not put myself in a situation where I might be tempted to do so.

If you're trusting your man to walk close to the edge without falling off, then I think that's quite naive. Some may indeed be able to resist the temptation, but the most trustworthy men will avoid the temptation altogether.
#40
Old 06-05-2005, 05:06 PM
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Ladies. Your man wants to go to a Bachelor Party...

My husband isn't the type to go to strip clubs. If his best friend were to have a party as described in the OP, I wouldn't have a problem with him going. My only stipulation would be he take a shower before getting in the bed.
#41
Old 06-05-2005, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Misnomer
Everything I've heard/seen points to the fact that if a guy's going to cheat on you with a stripper, he would have cheated on you anyway.
That's right! The problem is that women trust their men without evidence, as demonstrated by:
Quote:
And of course "nice" guys cheat -- I don't believe in outward signs when it comes to that, I just believe in trusting my partner.
Right, you're just going to trust him no matter what. Stand by your man. The willfully naive female psyche at work.
Quote:
I'm not saying that men are angels, and I'm not even saying that a strip club might not make a man more likely to cheat (if he's inclined that way to begin with). But the OP asked for individual opinions on letting our men go to strip clubs, and most of us trust our SOs (or, as in my case, wouldn't have an SO that we didn't feel we could trust).
You "feel" you can trust him. And you'll be shocked, shoked! if he ever does, right? 'Cause he's just not that kind of guy.

Let me put it this way: Trust ought to be granted by the observation of behaviors over a period of time. And going to see a stripper is the very kind of behavior that ought to give you pause about your man's level of fidelity.

Quote:
For Aeschines to come in here and paint us with the broad brush of naïveté -- all because he has radically different standards of "cheating" than the rest of us do -- is just ridiculous, IMHO.
Call it "tough love." Women say that men are sex-crazed pigs overly concerned with physical appearance--and they're right! Men say that women are gold diggers always looking for the best deal--and they're right! One other psychological flaw of women is that they are intractably trusting in their men--then flip to surprised and offended rage and disgust when the men contradict that ideal.

Quote:
But I will add that I think you went a little overboard when you compared men in strip clubs to drunks at wine tastings...
And the idea that women would accept that behavior, even wink at it, just blows my mind. Either open it up or shut it down, I say. Half-assed standards lead to disaster.
#42
Old 06-05-2005, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyNot
As the standard-bearing "Polyamory and Open Marriage Chick" of the Straight Dope, may I hereby request that Aeschines NOT be on my side?
Perhaps we are in favor of polyamory for different reasons and have different ideals.
Quote:
Jumpin' Jesus on a Pogo Stick, Aeschines, where did you get this horrible notion that men are oversexed dogs who need to be socially neutered by their wives for their own safety?
One reason is that I myself am an oversexed dog who neuters himself for his own safety. And most men with whom I can discuss the matter openly are the same. I will also refer you to the stats I posted earlier.
Quote:
Sex is a continuum of behavior, you yourself said it. Men are not slobbering animals who cannot be trusted to eat one cheesburger but not the whole sack! Some men get enjoyment from looking at women yet don't get enjoyment from betraying and hurting their wives! Why is that such a revolutionary concept for you?
Any man who would find the stripper aesthetic pleasing is highly likely not to have trouble with other behaviors that women is this thread have said they would find "devastating." Not all, but many. "Highly likely."
Quote:
And, yeah, as QtM said, you being a controlling spouse is NOT going to stop a husband who wants to have sex with a prostitute.
That's not true. It will stop many men. It will also fail to stop many men.

But applying control can help a woman in two complementary ways. One, it can stop a man who otherwise would do what she doesn't want him to do. Two, it can catch a man once he has done so so that he can be disposed of. Many women in this thread are just saying, "I'm just gonna trust." They're not trying to prevent the behaviors, and they're shutting their eyes to signs that behaviors have happened. A bad combo.
Quote:
And, as far as the OP goes, I obviously would have no problem with it. NOT because I'm in an open marriage, but because I trust my husband not to do anything stupid that could cause me pain.
Here we go agian.

Personally, I trust my wife not to do what I don't want her to do sexually because she's never shown the slightest sign of having done so or of desiring to do so. This makes life very easy for me in that area. Desiring to see a stripper is such a sign that danger is there. Contrariwise, if you've never caught your man with any type of porn, if he's never shown interest in having sex with other women, if you've never overheard him talking with the boys about hot chicks, if you've never observed the signs of an affiar, then you likely enjoy the same level of safety that I do. But if, in fact, he is going off to Vegas to watch strippers, then you enjoy a reduced margin of safety.

Trust isn't the default setting, unless you are naive and willing to be disappointed. Trust is based on a record of behavior; trust is earned.
Quote:
There are similar situations which could lead him to do something against our "rules," but I trust him to be able to control himself. (For example, exes are off limits. Yet I don't have a problem with him going to lunch or dinner with an ex - I trust him not to lose control of his penis and fall into her vagina, because somewhere underneath all those hormones is a mostly functioning brain.)
Good for you if he has earned your trust. Please encourage other women to base such trust on a record of behavior.
#43
Old 06-05-2005, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeschines
Let me put it this way: Trust ought to be granted by the observation of behaviors over a period of time. And going to see a stripper is the very kind of behavior that ought to give you pause about your man's level of fidelity.
Y'know, that particular statement deserves special emphasis. Heed these words, folks!

BTW, I disagree that someone who cheats on you with a stripper would have cheated on you through other means anyway. As with many things in life, there are degrees of temptation. It's possible for an otherwise faithful man to eventually cross the line, if he's given a strong enough temptation. That's why I've chosen to avoid situations like that altogether.
#44
Old 06-05-2005, 05:38 PM
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If my husband actually wanted to go to a bachelor party where there would be strippers and other similar stuff, I'd wonder if he was on crack or had been taken over by aliens. Before he and I got married, he actually had to threaten one guy who was insisting he would physically kidnap my husband and drag him off to strip clubs for a bachelor party. We've been to a sex-gear model show at a club, and he enjoyed that, but we were there together and it was a dance club that was throwing this show as entertainment, which we didn't know would be going on that night. He says he doesn't find strip clubs interesting, and I believe him.

Oh, and Aeschines? Maybe there's a difference in behavior between the men with whom you can discuss this stuff openly, and those you can't. The former seems to be a pretty self-selected sample, after all. I could say "all my friends who I can discuss the topic with say that they like porn" - well, if I don't think I can discuss the topic openly with certain friends, isn't it a likely conclusion that those friends wouldn't like porn?
#45
Old 06-05-2005, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeschines
Desiring to see a stripper is such a sign that danger is there. Contrariwise, if you've never caught your man with any type of porn, if he's never shown interest in having sex with other women, if you've never overheard him talking with the boys about hot chicks, if you've never observed the signs of an affiar, then you likely enjoy the same level of safety that I do.
What hooey. Come on, I think most guys are going to look at porn or talk about hot chicks at some point. It doesn't bother me and, quite frankly, I would want the freedom to go see men stripping if I wanted to.

A relationship isn't about controlling the other person. If you don't want the other person to fuck around, fine. Be honest and if the person betrays your honesty, don't stay with them. It's like any other breach of trust. Should I expect a man to hand over all his money to me, because I don't want him to spend it all on toys and personal interests? Should I never take him to a bar if I'm not expecting him to get completely, slobbering drunk (even if I ask him not to)? Should I not bake a cake unless I think it's OK if he grabs the whole thing and eats it with his hands? Ridiculous. Men are quite capable of making their own decisions and I don't feel that it's "naive" to avoid controlling behavior with your partner.

Heck, I'd be happy to go along to the bachelor party if it was really an issue. I'd buy him a lap dance, too. I'd want him to be happy.
#46
Old 06-05-2005, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluiddruid
What hooey. Come on, I think most guys are going to look at porn or talk about hot chicks at some point. It doesn't bother me and, quite frankly, I would want the freedom to go see men stripping if I wanted to.
Oh yeah, I missed this. Both my husband and I look at porn. It's arousing and interesting, and I know for certain that I don't have any real desire to fuck other men, other than the occasional "oo, that's niiiiice" fleeting thoughts when seeing a hot guy on the street. And then the thought fades and I go home and hop in bed with my husband. But hey, maybe I'm in denial about both myself and my husband, and we're both just being used by the establishment which enforces monogamy as a tool to control the masses. You said sex is a continuum, and I think plenty of people can engage in observation and talk without actually going out and screwing someone outside of a committed relationship.
#47
Old 06-05-2005, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferret Herder
If my husband actually wanted to go to a bachelor party where there would be strippers and other similar stuff, I'd wonder if he was on crack or had been taken over by aliens. Before he and I got married, he actually had to threaten one guy who was insisting he would physically kidnap my husband and drag him off to strip clubs for a bachelor party. We've been to a sex-gear model show at a club, and he enjoyed that, but we were there together and it was a dance club that was throwing this show as entertainment, which we didn't know would be going on that night. He says he doesn't find strip clubs interesting, and I believe him.
That's all cool. You understand your husband's sexuality and the probability that he will do things you don't like. That sounds like my situation with my wife. All of which means that other women should trust but verify too.
Quote:
Oh, and Aeschines? Maybe there's a difference in behavior between the men with whom you can discuss this stuff openly, and those you can't. The former seems to be a pretty self-selected sample, after all. I could say "all my friends who I can discuss the topic with say that they like porn" - well, if I don't think I can discuss the topic openly with certain friends, isn't it a likely conclusion that those friends wouldn't like porn?
Yes, indeed the lack of desire to talk about it indicates either A) a complete lack of interest or B) a kind of shyness about the topic or C) both. Any of which is a positive sign that a man isn't going to cheat. Not a guarantee, but a sign.

There are definitely men who are not into porn and who would never cheat. Heck, there are men who are barely into sex to begin with. But there is also a large percentage of men who desire sex with multiple partners and who are held in check by personal ethics and various types of risk, as I have pointed out above.
#48
Old 06-05-2005, 06:26 PM
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I would not want my man to go to a strip club, I'm too paranoid he'd bring home some bug to share w/ me.
#49
Old 06-05-2005, 06:42 PM
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Montreal a Mecca of prostitution? Huh.

I would be fine with my guy going to a strip club (although he doesn't go and doesn't like them, a side-effect of having dated a stripper), except I would not be okay with lap dances. Watching is one thing - touching is another. And Montreal is a Mecca of 'full-contact' lap dances. I'm faily certain that, if he were going to a bachelor party, we'd sit down and have a talk about it, and come to some sort of agreement which we would both stick to.

Call me naive if you want, but I have a great relationship and I do trust him. I think all of you who assume that the average person would cheat given the chance need to have a good hard look at yourselves and your own relationships.
#50
Old 06-05-2005, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluiddruid
What hooey. Come on, I think most guys are going to look at porn or talk about hot chicks at some point. It doesn't bother me and, quite frankly, I would want the freedom to go see men stripping if I wanted to.
And a lot of men would like the "freedom" to bone other women. That's the point.

You're right that most guys are going to look at porn and talk about hot chicks. It's also true that most men want to bone other women at some point. One thing that prevents them is the preventive measures that you take.

Quote:
A relationship isn't about controlling the other person.
Oh, sweet heavens, this so naive. Any relationship has elements of control to it; sexual relationships are topped with great big globs of control sauce. If you every argue with your husband and one of you gets upset if such and such condition is not fulfilled, then you are operating in the area of rewards and punishments, and control is at work. If you have explicit or implicit rules, then control is at work. In the best relationships there is very little explicit control and self-control predominates. But there is still control.

Quote:
If you don't want the other person to fuck around, fine. Be honest and if the person betrays your honesty, don't stay with them.
Sounds like a rule for control to me. But I've been emphasizing preventive measures in all my posts. Isn't an ounce of prevention worth more than a ton of leaving him/divorce?
Quote:
It's like any other breach of trust. Should I expect a man to hand over all his money to me, because I don't want him to spend it all on toys and personal interests?
No, but you do agree as to how to divide up your collective money, don't you? That's control.
Quote:
Should I never take him to a bar if I'm not expecting him to get completely, slobbering drunk (even if I ask him not to)?
Such control may be necessary for alcoholics.
Quote:
Should I not bake a cake unless I think it's OK if he grabs the whole thing and eats it with his hands? Ridiculous.
Yes, these analogies are ridiculous because watching a stripper is already a means of gaining sexual excitement/pleasure. It is not merely "looking without touching"; more importantly, to most men merely watching a stripper is not a satisfactory end in itself. It's going to lead to at least masturbation back in the hotel room.
Quote:
Men are quite capable of making their own decisions and I don't feel that it's "naive" to avoid controlling behavior with your partner.
You can't avoid controlling behavior, since all relationships contain an element of control. Men are indeed capable of making their own decisions, and many of them will decide to do things that you do not want them to do.
Quote:
Heck, I'd be happy to go along to the bachelor party if it was really an issue. I'd buy him a lap dance, too. I'd want him to be happy.
Why not buy him a whore if that would make him happy too? Because that would be *naughty*?
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