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#1
Old 07-05-2005, 08:03 PM
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Has anyone had a bad experience with DeMolay / Freemasons/Order of the Eastern Star ?

Over in This MPSIMS thread, I expressed some concerns regarding the trust and secrecy issues enforced upon minor children of both genders by the Freemasons.

I'll quote back from my post in there to explain my concern:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartooniverse
Don't get me started on DeMolay. My 12 year old nephew was sucked into those people's claws.

I ask what he does when he goes away with total strangers ( all men ) for a weekend. He says it's a secret. No shit. A secret? I ask his parents. They say it's private and they cannot know. No shit. A private secret weekend get-away for adult men and 12 year old boys. Uh huh. F****rs.

I called his Youth Leader, and was directed to the State Youth Leader in Pennsylvania for DeMolay. I asked him two or three very pointed questions pertaining to activities, supervision and whatnot. I was given in return the biggest loads of shit one can possibly imagine ( and no answers whatsoever ). I called the guy on his shit, and his tone turned cold and he informed me that he had nothing to tell me. That it was private.

Private. Between the men and the boys. Oh yeah? F***rs.

So I called the Pennsylvania Attorney General's office, and lo and behold I find out that I am not the first adult to call and ask about these jokers. They've got quite a file on them. Why? Because it's 1996 ( at the time ) and not 1352 and men who dig taking 12 year old boys away for a weekend of "secret and very private" activities can expect to answer to the Attorney General.

F****rs. Again, lest we miss the subtle point, pedophile lying secretive bastards.

Yes, I do believe that covers it. Oh, wait- we have DeMolay fans reading? EXCELLENT. Do be good honest moral upstanding adults and answer the questions that nobody in DeMolay was permitted to answer. Anyone who is game, sound up and I will be oh so incredibly happy to outline every single query that was refused by The Youth Leader of Demolay for Pennsylvania.

Otherwise, well.................... who is worse? The pedophile or the other adults who cover for him? Hmmmm ?

You wanna join a private secret special society when you are 21 and an adult and entirely responsible for your actions? Right the heck on, welcome to America. You want to run a private society for underage boys that refuses to disclose ANYTHING about your rituals, behaviors, activities or whereabouts when travelling with other people's boys? Then, we gotta problem.

As for my nephew, this was a few years ago. He got out, but it was NOT easy. Apparently whatever they did to him and with him, to this day he is too frightened to discuss it. Some fuckin' social service organization. I might suggest that it insults the Knights of Columbus, Lions, Rotary Club and American Legion to be lumped in with the Freemasons and their underage boys club, DeMolay.
So, there you have it. I am respecting the wishes of the OP'er, and starting a totally separate thread so that his is not hijacked any more.

Are there any Dopers out there who have had negative or damaging or upsetting dealings with these groups who feel they can share them in the Dope? I would be highly surprised if my nephew is the only 12 year old boy ever told he's not allowed to tell anyone what he does when he goes away with adult men for the weekend. Not his Mom, not his Dad, not his uncle ( me ). Nobody, pretty much. See, it's secret.

Secret. So here's your chance to unburden some of those secrets. My nephew got out, but not easily. To this day he cannot talk about what happened during the years he was involved in DeMolay.

Are there any Dopers out there who can?

Since this is feeling like a poll of sorts, I've posted it into IMHO.

Cartooniverse
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#2
Old 07-05-2005, 08:17 PM
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Since this happened in Pennsylvania and that's where I ran into rude cold roadblocks, the quote from the Pennsylvania DeMolay Youth Protection Page is particularly ironic/appalling:
Quote:
Because of our policies, and our desire to protect both our youth and adult volunteers, certain activities and situations simply aren't acceptable in our organization. In DeMolay, you should NEVER:
<snip> ( long list of bullet points )
* Be asked to mislead your parents, or not tell them where you are going or what you are doing.
In point of fact, this is exactly what occurred for years and years. He was not allowed to tell his parents where he went, or what they did. He told them what time he should be at the Temple for the trip, and what time to pick him up at the end of the trip. That's all.

Thoughts?
#3
Old 07-05-2005, 08:34 PM
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Re the five questions you raised in the other thread, and your request that I answer them, I cannot. Note that I say "cannot" and not "will not." I am not a past member of DeMolay, nor have I ever had any involvement with the organization. Therefore, I am not privy to any information about it. I simply noted that I personally have never heard a word of scandal associated with the organization nor those men who have been involved. As far as the inner works of the organization goes, you might well know more than I.

I do hope someone with more knowledge will respond; I've become curious.
#4
Old 07-05-2005, 09:53 PM
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I thought it was interesting that the first Google hit for "DeMolay abuse" was the PA DeMolay youth protection policy.

Poking through some more of the hits did show one big abuse case in Florida.
#5
Old 07-06-2005, 02:02 AM
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Sorry, but this "poll" has no place in IMHO. You want to pit the group, and are asking for horror stories and information to further justify this pitting.

Moving this from IMHO to The BBQ Pit.
#6
Old 07-06-2005, 03:12 AM
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Okay, this was long ago, I was not in DeMolay (wrong sex), but I knew boys who were, and there's nothing. It's a youth group; the adult sponsors are Masons.

They did not go on trips with groups of adult men. These were boys with an adult leader or two. Sure, things can happen and have happened in those situations (think altar boys here, scout camp) but usually they don't.

It's just the kind of thing where you are told you will learn secrets you can't tell, and you learn them, and they are cheesy secrets but you already promised. Secret handshakes, secret distress signals, secret symbols.

And I never heard of anybody having a hard time getting out, as you said about your nephew in the MPSIMs thread. They just quit going. Or not. Same as any other Boy Scouts/Girl Scout/Rainbow/Job's Daughter/Circle K/fraternity/sorority.

The "secrets" are, as I said, cheesy. But if you tell somebody then they will know you are not a person who keeps his word, and you sure don't want to be thought of as a person who doesn't keep his word for the sake of a cheesy little secret handshake, do you?

Sorry, I know you expected something much worse.
#7
Old 07-06-2005, 03:23 AM
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Just to throw in my useless two cents:

I used to work for an outsource of Dell Tech Support, and our offices were located in the same building as the Masonic Temple. We were on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th floors, the Masons on the 6th and 7th. I had the opportunity to share the elevator with Masons on several occasions, and one day I plucked up my courage enough to ask exactly what went on upstairs. The Mason [an older gentleman] seemed to have no qualms about telling me that it was a fraternal organization and they gathered to have dinners and dances and ceremonies pertaining to their history. He even showed me his costume [not the right word, I know, sorry] for the ceremony they were having that night, and told me they were having a collection [monetary] for the family of a recently and unexpectedly deceased member. Not worth much, I know, but I had heard about how secretive and weird the Freemasons [omg Illuminati!!11] were for years, and I found it enlightening how open and kind he was to my questions, espcially since I was a 19-year-old girl with black and scarlet red hair, a Lesbian Avengers t-shirt, and two tons of eyeliner.
#8
Old 07-06-2005, 04:12 AM
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My grandfather was a Mason, I went to gatherings all the time when I was little. My entire family would go to the weekly pot luck on saturday afternoons. We went out to dinner frequently with other Masons. When I needed a babysitter, a wife or daughter of another Mason would normally come over to watch me. In all the time I spent with them, I don't remember any function when I felt uncomfortable.

I don't believe that it is common practice among the Masons to take a group of twelve year old boys and to exclude their fathers. Most of the children around Masonic gatherings are the children and grandchildren of members. I do find that the circumstances in the OP to be suspicious, but I don't believe that the majority of Masons operate in that manner.
#9
Old 07-06-2005, 04:57 AM
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Hysterical much?

There's a category of people who "know" the Masons are up to something unsavory that requires the oaths and secrecy.

Usually, they fit in better over t' Art Bell or John Birch Society forums.

Seriously, what the fuck?
#10
Old 07-06-2005, 05:25 AM
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As to the OP, nope.

Well I got food poisoning from a late dinner after a Lodge meeting once. Elsewise, nope not at all.
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#11
Old 07-06-2005, 05:38 AM
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Heck, Cartooniverse, from the original post and not knowing anything else about the situation, I have to agree with Larry Mudd here. I agree with the idea that they shouldn't tell the kids to not tell their parents what goes on (which apparently even the group agrees to officially), but you went from zero to psycho pretty much in no time flat.

What did the parents of this child have to say about it? Why is the uncle calling people up to give them a hard time? If the parents want to object and take the kid out of the group, great, but I don't get at all where you suddenly appoint yourself to try to raise a fit when the parents apparently don't think it's a big deal.
#12
Old 07-06-2005, 06:18 AM
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Respectfully, Cartooniverse, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. You've apparently concluded to your own satisfaction that the DeMolay organization is comprised largely of pedophiles. You'd like to convince others of the same. So you start a thread soliciting other SDMB members to provide you with anecdotes you can use as proof? Usually evidence comes before the accusation.

Your passion on the topic convinces me that you feel you have certainly proven the case in your own mind. But to outsiders who have not met your nephew, the fact that he won't talk to you about DeMolay admits of more than one explanation. Other than characterizing it as "loads of shit" you don't provide much information about what the PA DeMolay youth leader told you. And many people become uncommunicative when you ask pointed questions and call them on their shit, which I take to mean a less than respectful challenge of their answers. You don't explain at all what difficulties your nephew had in leaving the organization, so again there's a wide range of possibilities. Then there's the AG, who has amassed a lot of information ("quite a thick file") on the group. Well, what did the AG's office tell you? Better yet, what charges have they brought based on the information contained in that file?

Pedophilia is ugly and intolerable, but please consider that unwarranted accusations of it are not much less so, and you're spreading that mud awfully wide.

Well, you got one hit: Cave Mike provided a case in Florida, but it may not be damning or far-reaching enough for you: you've assumed a heavy burden of proof. You might consider laying some of it down by narrowing the scope of your accusations a little, at least until they can be supported with more facts.
#13
Old 07-06-2005, 06:34 AM
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I'm quite well-disposed towards the Masonic movement. My dad's a Mason. I think it is generally a benign organisation that does a lot of good in society - or at least tries to. Sure, there's a bit of networking too - good luck to 'em.

That said, I am on Cartooniverse's side here, assuming he's being truthful with us, and I have no reason to doubt him. In this day and age, it's not what you do, but what you are seen to do. Whether Cartooniverse has over-generalised or not is one thing, but dammit you don't take young boys away for the weekend with a bunch of grown men and not allow their parents to know every last detail down to the number of peas on their plates at breakfast.

I'm not a Mason, and I don't seek to know their secrets, beyond what they are willing to tell me. As said in this thread, if you actually ask a geuine Mason, they are happy to tell you quite a lot more than you might expect. I do know enough about Masonic ritual to know that "telling nothing about events between being dropped off at Temple and being picked up there again" is total BS. If they are pulling that stunt, then Cartooniverse has every right to start raising hell. As a dad, I'm damned sure I would.
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#14
Old 07-06-2005, 06:48 AM
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I am a Mason and a DeMolay. Further, I'm from Florida. I was active in DeMolay from 1983-1989 and my father was active for several years longer than that. Here are my experiences and recollections about the organization:

1. DeMolay encourages the participation of both parents in almost everything. Mothers are not allowed to attend certain ceremonies (although there is a special ceremony just for them), but fathers can attend everything whether or not they are Masons.
2. For every trip, boys had to get an insurance form signed by at least one parent. This form explained the destination, length of stay, activities to be participated in, and requested medical information (allergies, medicines, etc), a contact number, and an authorization for emergency treatment. No form, no trip. AFAIK, this form was standard in Florida (required by our insurance carrier actually).
3. Hilarity is correct (at least in my experience), on every trip I went on, the DeMolay outnumbered the advisors (ususally by a large margin). Activities that were typical: playing sports, fishing, camping, cooking out, snipe hunts, fan-tan, and other teenage boy stuff. It was extremely rare and heavily discouraged for only one advisor to take a group anywhere.
4. Most of the advisors (at least when I was in) were fathers of the boys in their chapter. The younger ones were invariably former members, often the older brothers of current members.
#15
Old 07-06-2005, 07:27 AM
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How did they prevent him from leaving or talking? How was he a member if his dad wasn't a Mason? if his dad was a Mason, why wasn't he active in DeMolay? Why werent you? How do you know he was too frightened of DeMolay to discuss it, as opposed to too frightened of his overreacting uncle? How do you know the secrecy wasn't your nephew's choice? You erroneously branded me frightened in the other thread,. Could you be projecting the same state on your nephew?

Quote:
He was not allowed to tell his parents where he went, or what they did. He told them what time he should be at the Temple for the trip, and what time to pick him up at the end of the trip. That's all.
How do you know this wasn't your nephew's choice? How do you know he was not allowed? How did they prevent him?
Quote:
Because of our policies, and our desire to protect both our youth and adult volunteers, certain activities and situations simply aren't acceptable in our organization. In DeMolay, you should NEVER:
<snip> ( long list of bullet points )
* Be asked to mislead your parents, or not tell them where you are going or what you are doing.
When did this case occur? That seems to address your concerns right there. If theyve changed their position on secrecy, whats the probem?

Something just doesnt add up here.
#16
Old 07-06-2005, 08:14 AM
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Thread closed per request of OP.
#17
Old 07-07-2005, 02:55 PM
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Mod note:

Thread reopened; the OP's status re the Pit has been clarified.

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#18
Old 07-07-2005, 03:08 PM
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If you want me to tell you what happens in the ritual, the I'm going to have to advise you to grow up. Alternatively, you can become a Mason and thereby be allowed into the private ritual events.

As for not telling you what happens at all, that's fucked up. There is nothing secret except for a few ritual events per se, and the secret ones are a lot like the public ones.

You have some serious issues to work out, however. If your kids are going off with total strangers then shame on you for not getting involved. Ditto on your nephew's parents. It's a question of parental involvement, and parents do not have to be Masons to be involved in the organization. If you're so concerned, then you should get involved.

As for your accusations: give me a break. If you feel that youth groups are a sink for pedophiles (technically, not the correct term), then get involved and make a difference. The only option to your pedophilia concerns are to either eliminate youth groups altogether, or to have youth groups with no adult supervision whatsoever.

If a youth organization has problems with abuse, sexual or otherwise, we cannot blame the victims; however, the victims' parents do bear culpability for not being responsible parents.

So quit bitching and get involved. It'll do you some good, especially when you're old and infirmed and wishing you had some younger friends to keep you company.
#19
Old 07-07-2005, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartooniverse
Secret. So here's your chance to unburden some of those secrets. My nephew got out, but not easily. To this day he cannot talk about what happened during the years he was involved in DeMolay.
If he was molested it wasn't because of any sanctioned actions of the organization. And actually, he can talk all that he wants to but it appears that the boy suffers froma condition called "having a little class". More likely is he made a promise to his fellow participants not to divulge the "secrets" of the organization to others.

The DeMolay organization is a fraternal order, not too different from from college fraternities and other bonding organizations like boy scouts, etc. One difference is that they have closed meetings (non-members are not allowed admission) which have a ritualistic structure. This is not so much to hide any activity as it is in remembrence of the founders of the organization who had to maintain secrecy to protect their lives from religious prosecution. The namesake, Jaques DeMolay, died as a result of religious prosecution. Their message or theme isn't so much a religion as it is people should have the right of self determination for their religious beliefs.


Quote:

Are there any Dopers out there who can?
I'm a former DeMolay. I won't tell you about their rituals either because I occaisionally show a little class myself, though not often if you ask some others around hear.

If I was inclined to "lose my class" and tell you all about the secrets I'm pretty sure I could have you nodding off from boredom in about 20 minutes.
It might be said that the most important thing about the secrets is that they encourage loyalty from the young men involved. In other words, the secrets aren't important but sharing them is.

Quote:
Since this is feeling like a poll of sorts, I've posted it into IMHO.
Cartooniverse
Nope, its been very obvious to the members of this board that this is a pitting and you tried to wrap it in an IMHO envelope.

That just shows that not only have you been talking out of your ass but you also lack the balls participate in the one forum where your accusations it belong.

Point of Information: I am no longer involved in any Masonic order and have no desire to be in one. I lost interest in DeMolay and left the organization at 17. After leaving I saw no practical use in revealing the "secrets" to anyone.
#20
Old 07-08-2005, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaDog
And actually, he can talk all that he wants to but it appears that the boy suffers froma condition called "having a little class". More likely is he made a promise to his fellow participants not to divulge the "secrets" of the organization to others.
I would like to agree but with a caveat, one that I hit on above and which I'm not entirely sure I sufficiently stressed. The amount of stuff DeMolay has that is actually secret is very small relative to the scope of activities in which they engage. If the organization's (sp?) advisors refuse to divulge what goes on outside of those ceremonies, then I do indeed say, "That's fucked up." I was a DeMolay, as was my brother, and my two sisters were Job's. I was even an officer at the state level of the organization.

In all honesty, the only thing I can think of where a whole weekend couldn't be divulged would be a ritual competition, but even then the kid could say, "It was a ritual competition. I can't tell you what happened, other than to say that different chapters competeted to see who did the best ritual. We got third." There may be secrets in the sense of boys making a pact to keep their adventures to themselves, but as far as the organization goes, the amount of secret activity is relatively small. Otherwise it's just the same old stuff that other groups do.
#21
Old 07-08-2005, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by js_africanus
I would like to agree but with a caveat, one that I hit on above and which I'm not entirely sure I sufficiently stressed. The amount of stuff DeMolay has that is actually secret is very small relative to the scope of activities in which they engage.
This only reinforces my guess that it's the OP's nephew who's into keeping secrets, not DeMolay itself. And if he approached the kid with the same level of predetermined paranoia that he's approached us, I can see why. My 12 year old has a hard enough time confiding in me when I'm calm and he knows he won't get in trouble. If I give off the vibe that I'm upset, he won't open his mouth to save his own hide.

And I agree that the non-secret stuff should be shared, both by the children and the leaders with the parents. My statements in the other thread were meant to indicate that I don't think ALL secrets are hiding pedophilia, and some secrets are good for moral and psychological development. A child should never be made to feel that a sexual secret needs to be kept, of course. But I see no reason to jump to the conclusion of "pedophile lying secretive bastards" with no evidence.

Perhaps there was evidence which Cartooniverse is not sharing with us in an effort to protect his nephew. Fine. But I still don't see why, even if his nephew was assaulted by a sick pervert asshole, that makes all of DeMolay "pedophile lying secretive bastards". That's a huge, libelous charge to tar a damn fine organization with when you have no evidence that there's a problem with the group as a whole. Asking for anecdotes, news reports and studies is a valid method of collecting data, but should be done BEFORE the general accusation is made public, or is made in such a scathing manner. The title of the thread alone would have been OK. The ugly accusations thrown at the whole group should wait until we have information on the whole group.

And the information isn't supporting the accusations, as it happens.

(Sorry for the horrible typos and odd syntax in my last post - my keyboard went kablooey, and I typed the whole damn thing with no middle row of letters - cut 'n' paste by letters and words. Was I ever relieved that it got in under the closing - I would have cried to spend all that time on it only to hit "Preview" and find the thread closed!)
#22
Old 07-08-2005, 10:24 AM
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What recent history has taught us is that there is no organization so benign and well-meaning that it cannot afford opportunity for pedophilic predators. The more benign to organization, the more likely it is to be naive.

DeMolay was terrific for me. The secrecy and mumbo-jumbo has no more malign signficance than the "No Gurls Aloud!" sign on the treehouse. Humans are suckers for rituals and secrecy, perhaps none more so than 14 year old boys.

Assuming, on no current information whatsoever, that it remains essentially similar today as it was then, I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to recommend it to another parent.

The Rosicrucians, however, that's a whole 'nother thing....
#23
Old 07-08-2005, 10:46 AM
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Okay, I can see the appeal of the secrecy and rituals, though I'd've thought they were pretty dorky when I was fourteen, but, when all is said (or unsaid) and done, how do you keep a kid in it once he finds out that the protestations of the adults are true and there are no secret plans for world domination and he's not going to get his own country with Lindsay Lohan catering to his every need and the only future awaiting a good little Mason is eventually becoming a Shriner and driving a go-kart that sorta looks like a flying carpet?

Frankly, the appeal is lost on me.
#24
Old 07-08-2005, 12:27 PM
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It doesn't look as if Cartooniverse intends to respond, since things aren't quite going his way.
#25
Old 07-08-2005, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baker
It doesn't look as if Cartooniverse intends to respond, since things aren't quite going his way.
I don't know. I usually just get distracted away from threads.
#26
Old 07-08-2005, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baker
It doesn't look as if Cartooniverse intends to respond, since things aren't quite going his way.
Cartooniverse, by way of longstanding tradition, does not post in the Pit. He didn't start this post in the Pit, it was moved here by a moderator, and so I don't expect him to rejoin the thread anytime soon.

This is not by way of being an attack on Cartooniverse, just a piece of information.
#27
Old 07-08-2005, 12:42 PM
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Just did a search on it, because I had thought it was the priest-pedophile situation that was the pivot point for him deciding it was better to avoid the Pit, but it appears that it was a Bush thread that made him decide to eschew the BBQ for almost two years now.

Again, just as a point of information and to pre-emptively keep someone from being wrongly accused of abandoning their thread in a cowardly way.
#28
Old 07-08-2005, 02:00 PM
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I'm not interested in pitting Cartooniverse. But if he doesn't come back to this thread, he will certainly have adandoned it. "Cowardly" isn't a word I'd care to use. But I'm not sure "principled" applies here either.

If I decide, for the noblest of reasons, never again to leave my own backyard, that would be recognized as unassailable by most and lauded by some. If, some time later, I decide to cover my yard a foot deep in penguin poop, that probably would not be so widely praised (though a few of us would no doubt find it unutterably funny), but it would mostly be considered my business alone. However, if I'm spraying poop around and it ends up on the other side of the fence (blown there by a moderate breeze), my principled, honor-bound duty (imposed by myself) makes a awfully weak justification for ignoring the mess I made on my neighbors' property.

I don't think it matters much whether Cartooniverse placed the OP in another forum in good faith or not (though I'd expect an experienced poster to know that accusing a large organization, one which includes past and present members of this community, of pedophilia is Pit material, especially since the original test run got so heated in yet a third forum). What does matter is that there are two principles at work here: (a)Cartooniverse's promise to himself, and (b) the responsibility, once you've made an accusation this shocking, to either substantiate it or retract it. If he abandons this thread, I'll probably think he's defending the less-important of the two principles, to the detriment of truth and honest discussion.

The moral is: if you drop trash, you have to pick it up, even if it lands in the gutter.
#29
Old 07-08-2005, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by js_africanus
..... If the organization's (sp?) advisors refuse to divulge what goes on outside of those ceremonies, then I do indeed say, "That's fucked up."
I didn't address that but I agree with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dropzone
Okay, I can see the appeal of the secrecy and rituals, though I'd've thought they were pretty dorky when I was fourteen, but, when all is said (or unsaid) and done, how do you keep a kid in it once he finds out that the protestations of the adults are true and there are no secret plans for world domination and he's not going to get his own country with Lindsay Lohan catering to his every need and the only future awaiting a good little Mason is eventually becoming a Shriner and driving a go-kart that sorta looks like a flying carpet?
The kids stay in the org because they develop friendships with the other kids in the org.
Quote:
Frankly, the appeal is lost on me.
It lost appeal for me too. In my case the DeMolay's association with Job's and Rainbows helped me learn how to socialize with girls. In high school I felt that I could find and date girls on my own. I had other interests and DeMolay slid to the bottom of the pile. I missed the guys I knew from DeMolay but didn't regret spending more time with cheerleaders.

King of Soup You are so right.
#30
Old 07-08-2005, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The King of Soup
The moral is: if you drop trash, you have to pick it up, even if it lands in the gutter.
Respectfully, that's a pretty bizarre metaphor for opening a thread and not continuing to reply. Indeed, being ADD I grew to be somewhat neurotic about always replying to something someone says, because when I was a kid I heard "your father said something to you" too many times to know when I was or wasn't supposed to say something back. In college a frat brother told me that I have a Very Bad Habit of always having to have the last word. I'll be damned before I'll play the game of trying to walk the line between Picking Up My Gutter Trash and Always Having The Last Word. There is no moral because there is no moral question being addressed; this is a message board and people get distracted, get things piled on them, and misestimate the amount of time and effort that will go into keeping up with a thread. C'est la vie.
#31
Old 07-08-2005, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaDog
It lost appeal for me too. In my case the DeMolay's association with Job's and Rainbows helped me learn how to socialize with girls.
I can relate. I was in TeenAged Republicans for the chicks. They weren't cheerleaders but they had their own qualities.
#32
Old 07-09-2005, 10:10 PM
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Sorry if I blew any fuses with a fanciful metaphor, js_africanus. Everybody has different tastes with these things, and mine runs along a somewhat playful stream.

Stripped of the trimmings, my post was merely meant as a plea for people to behave as if they were responsible for what they say (always a losing cause on a pseudonymous message board). As in, if you make an accusation, be prepared to prove it or recant. Sure, it's possible to become distracted by all the bells and whistles and shiny things the SDMB (not to mention the entire internet) has to offer, but even a cursory reading of the OP suggests a personal involvement in this issue that I, if it were mine, would find it difficult to forget.

Inattention is not a valid excuse for a poster ignoring a thread started by him/herself to accuse someone, or several people, or an entire organization of a disgusting crime, especially if the purpose of the thread is to solicit anecdotal support for one's own, poorly-evidenced thesis. If an OP wishes to disavow a thread that ends up in the Pit, s/he can and should do so publicly. When that happens, I think the closest moderator should ride up and create an even bigger scene, as noisily as possible -- that is to say, close the thread quickly and painlessly, and immediately cobble together a neutral explanation that makes sense, or, rather, one that won't open him/her up to charges of favoritism, or whimsically makes light of and distracts from the reasons for any given decision. Either that, or things can go on as they are.
#33
Old 07-11-2005, 08:07 PM
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A former DeMolay checking in here, although I never became a Mason. I had issues with them. Not secrecy issues. Shit, how secret is an organization that is so involved with charities. I had an issue with the defacto segregation that was still pervasive during the late 70's and early 80's Freemasons. It has changed somewhat. I was in an ice-cream shop where I saw a bunch of DeMolays, and there was actually a couple of black teenagers.

Back to topic. It sounds like this DeMolay went to a conclave, which includes ritual competitions. The rituals are likely similar to other fraternal orders, resembling more that of college fraternities. One degree is a symbolic journey where you get taken around and told things about how you should live your life. The other is a theatrical play of the Trial of Jacques Demolay (I performed the role of Senior Inquisitor, sort of the good cop vs. the Jr. Inquisitor's bad cop). These kids memorize their roles and perform both degrees, plus other meeting oriented rituals in competition against other chapters.

I am puzzled as to the secretivness of the above story. My folks knew where I was going. That I was competing in ritual performances. That we also would go to Six Flags afterward. The worst thing that happened is some older members got some beer (drinking age was 18), and we watched the soft core flicks on the hotel cable.

It sounds like maybe the kid is taking the "secret" aspect a little too far.
#34
Old 07-11-2005, 08:09 PM
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There is no virgin sacrifices in the ritual, but I did sacrifice my virginity to a Rainbow girl!
#35
Old 06-04-2013, 03:13 PM
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Idiot

I am the parent of a Demolay and a Rainbow girl. Any parent is welcome to sit in on any of their "Secret" meetings. I did for the first long while but decided to stop before I died of boredom. Honestly the secrecy is just to make them feel special, like they know something we don't, they even have secret knocks and handshakes. They don't molest the children and don't discuss anything worthy of keeping secret. They both just do community service and make friends. We are not Christian, my son is a Buddhist, the Masons are a Christian based group but allow all who believe in something higher than themselves, as long as they have some kind of family relation to the Masons. My father's family are all Masons, and my Aunt is an Easter Star. I could join but I'm just not into the dressing up and the ceremonies. It's just a Do Gooders club (no offense meant) that likes to pretend to be sneaky and secretive. I would tell you more but made a promise not to reveal their "secrets", which are silly and no one would care to know anyways. This is just a big deal about nothing, I think the secrecy is just a tradition from when the Knights Templar were prosecuted and in danger of all being put to death so they had to be sneaky to live. My kids have both learned a lot about being a beneficial part of the community and have become part of a wonderful extended family, I know the Masons world wide would have their back if needed.
#36
Old 06-04-2013, 03:22 PM
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Consider your comment noted and filed.
#37
Old 06-04-2013, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aubriella View Post
Idiot.
Not a word you want to throw out there when answering a post from 8 years ago.
#38
Old 06-04-2013, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Aubriella View Post
I am the parent of a Demolay and a Rainbow girl. Any parent is welcome to sit in on any of their "Secret" meetings. I did for the first long while but decided to stop before I died of boredom. Honestly the secrecy is just to make them feel special, like they know something we don't, they even have secret knocks and handshakes. They don't molest the children and don't discuss anything worthy of keeping secret. They both just do community service and make friends. We are not Christian, my son is a Buddhist, the Masons are a Christian based group but allow all who believe in something higher than themselves, as long as they have some kind of family relation to the Masons. My father's family are all Masons, and my Aunt is an Easter Star. I could join but I'm just not into the dressing up and the ceremonies. It's just a Do Gooders club (no offense meant) that likes to pretend to be sneaky and secretive. I would tell you more but made a promise not to reveal their "secrets", which are silly and no one would care to know anyways. This is just a big deal about nothing, I think the secrecy is just a tradition from when the Knights Templar were prosecuted and in danger of all being put to death so they had to be sneaky to live. My kids have both learned a lot about being a beneficial part of the community and have become part of a wonderful extended family, I know the Masons world wide would have their back if needed.
What on Earth were you Googling for that led you to an 8 year old thread about someone thinking the DeMolay order had some kind of pedophilia operation going on?

eta: Oh, and welcome to the Straight Dope. Nice first post.

Last edited by Darth Panda; 06-04-2013 at 03:43 PM.
#39
Old 06-04-2013, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Not a word you want to throw out there when answering a post from 8 years ago.
Sick burn. You sure showed her what not.
#40
Old 06-04-2013, 04:26 PM
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When this thread was first posted it was probably very difficult to find the following video.

(Kind of weird to think of 2005 as such a barbaric, desolate time without YouTube.)
#41
Old 06-04-2013, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Not a word you want to throw out there when answering a post from 8 years ago.
Why not?

It's not like Cartooniverse is no longer an idiot.
#42
Old 06-04-2013, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhythmdvl View Post
(Kind of weird to think of 2005 as such a barbaric, desolate time without YouTube.)
I honestly don't know how we functioned, like an existence without Google.

It's good to see my posts haven't aged, being as stupid now as they were in 2005. But I didn't confess my bad experience with the Masons, and I need to come clean if I'm to sleep tonight:

I find them boring.

There, I said it! I feel so much better.
#43
Old 06-05-2013, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
I honestly don't know how we functioned, like an existence without Google.

It's good to see my posts haven't aged, being as stupid now as they were in 2005. But I didn't confess my bad experience with the Masons, and I need to come clean if I'm to sleep tonight:

I find them boring.

There, I said it! I feel so much better.
A member of our anti-defamation league will be calling on you in the near future.
#44
Old 06-05-2013, 07:07 AM
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How about some answers from a DeMolay, me?

Quote:
Don't get me started on DeMolay. My 12 year old nephew was sucked into those people's claws.
Sucked into? Hmm...last I heard, the teens needed a parent's permission to join.

Quote:
I ask what he does when he goes away with total strangers ( all men ) for a weekend. He says it's a secret. No shit. A secret? I ask his parents. They say it's private and they cannot know. No shit. A private secret weekend get-away for adult men and 12 year old boys. Uh huh. F****rs.
Complete and utter bullshit. There are secrets, but those are the ones regarding the ritual. The ritual is basically a boy's club's secret password dressed up with candles, robes, and long toy swords. Trips always required a signed permission and insurance form from the member's parent or legal guardian.

Quote:
I called his Youth Leader, and was directed to the State Youth Leader in Pennsylvania for DeMolay. I asked him two or three very pointed questions pertaining to activities, supervision and whatnot. I was given in return the biggest loads of shit one can possibly imagine ( and no answers whatsoever ). I called the guy on his shit, and his tone turned cold and he informed me that he had nothing to tell me. That it was private.
Maybe he was having you. Anyway, all activities are required to have an adult present. Well, of course, going to the loo doesn't require that; I'm talking about club activities. My chapter had all kinds of activities: bowling, billiards, swimming (not naked), camping, debating, and a few others.

Quote:
Private. Between the men and the boys. Oh yeah? F***rs.
Well, my experience with DeMolay and the experience of my DeMolay friends I've met over the years is opposite your rant. If the chapter in question is being that secretive about their activities, they're violating the group's rules right off the bat.

Quote:
So I called the Pennsylvania Attorney General's office, and lo and behold I find out that I am not the first adult to call and ask about these jokers. They've got quite a file on them. Why? Because it's 1996 ( at the time ) and not 1352 and men who dig taking 12 year old boys away for a weekend of "secret and very private" activities can expect to answer to the Attorney General.

F****rs. Again, lest we miss the subtle point, pedophile lying secretive bastards.
Just for fun, you wouldn't happen to have anything approaching actual evidence that any crimes occurred, would you?

Quote:
Yes, I do believe that covers it. Oh, wait- we have DeMolay fans reading? EXCELLENT. Do be good honest moral upstanding adults and answer the questions that nobody in DeMolay was permitted to answer. Anyone who is game, sound up and I will be oh so incredibly happy to outline every single query that was refused by The Youth Leader of Demolay for Pennsylvania.
Well, I'm a DeMolay and I'm fully aware that one can resign from the club, one is required to have an adult present at club activities, and that members are not to hoodwink their parents.

Quote:
Otherwise, well.................... who is worse? The pedophile or the other adults who cover for him? Hmmmm ?
What about total assholes who cast aspersions without evidence? Where do they fit in this matrix?

Quote:
You wanna join a private secret special society when you are 21 and an adult and entirely responsible for your actions? Right the heck on, welcome to America. You want to run a private society for underage boys that refuses to disclose ANYTHING about your rituals, behaviors, activities or whereabouts when travelling with other people's boys? Then, we gotta problem.
Well, Houston, your description of DeMolay is inaccurate. Sounds like DeMolay's not the problem.

Quote:
As for my nephew, this was a few years ago. He got out, but it was NOT easy.
It's incredibly fucking easy to get out of DeMolay. Resign or simply stop going.

Quote:
Apparently whatever they did to him and with him, to this day he is too frightened to discuss it. Some fuckin' social service organization. I might suggest that it insults the Knights of Columbus, Lions, Rotary Club and American Legion to be lumped in with the Freemasons and their underage boys club, DeMolay.
What's insulting is your inaccurate tarring of the DeMolay for what appears to be something that's just speculation on your part. Hell, you can get some answers to your questions right off the bat here. You can get answers here. And if you're not thrilled with the answers you got (or didn't get) from the local or state level, you can call the national level.

So, what did I miss? Weekend events were always camps just like any other boys' club or "conclave" which is a state-wide meeting of DeMolays. There were various activities there, none of which involved hopping into bed with the adult male chaperones or with any of the other boys.

Last edited by Monty; 06-05-2013 at 07:10 AM.
#45
Old 06-05-2013, 07:12 AM
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Drat! It's a zombie thread!
#46
Old 06-05-2013, 08:29 AM
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I'll bet some guy now all grown up is still chuckling about how he freaked out his Uncle Cartooniverse. The old guy will believe anything!
#47
Old 06-05-2013, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Monty View Post
Drat! It's a zombie thread!
Yeah, those kids are totally legal by now.
#48
Old 06-05-2013, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Bridget Burke View Post
I'll bet some guy now all grown up is still chuckling about how he freaked out his Uncle Cartooniverse. The old guy will believe anything!
Yeah, that's about my take on it. If I had an uncle prone to these kind of rants, I probably wouldn't be very forthcoming either.
#49
Old 06-05-2013, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Monty View Post
How about some answers from a DeMolay, me?
Just so long as you watch what you say, and do not incur the fearful penalty of having your eyeball pierced to the center with a three-edged blade.
#50
Old 06-05-2013, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget Burke View Post
I'll bet some guy now all grown up is still chuckling about how he freaked out his Uncle Cartooniverse. The old guy will believe anything!
In all fairness, I don't think it's unreasonable to be concerned about an organization that sends children on secret camping trips (or whatever) and refuses to disclose how those trips are supervised, and so on (notwithstanding their apparent policy.)
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