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#1
Old 06-05-2007, 10:28 AM
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How to tell whether to fix hairline crack in automobile radiator or to replace it?

Yup ... it's the self-same vehicle as in this thread.

I noticed a bit of steam coming from under my hood after my thankfully-short commute Friday. Upon opening the hood, steam and tiny bubbles were coming out of a 3-inch crack at the very top of the radiator, on the side away from the engine and upper hose flange.

Thankfully, the crack is way up high ... so coolant is not leaking out when the truck is parked. At the moment, I add water to top off the radiator for every trip to and from work (about a 10-15-minute drive each way on 35-mph surface streets -- no open road). I realize that is diluting the coolant/water mixture, but it's only been a stopgap measure until I can determine what level of repair I am dealing with.

I understand that sometimes cracks in radiators can be successfully sealed. My GQ is this: how can I tell the difference between a crack that's a good candidate for sealing, and one that necessitates a new radiator? That a new radiator would cure all is a given ... the issue, as it so often is, is the cost of the repair.

I am hoping that the location of the crack works to my advantage, as there is no slow-leaking when parked. TIA for any advice or anecdotes.
#2
Old 06-05-2007, 11:08 AM
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I would check with experts at your local radiator repair shop. Not familiar with your vehicle, but if the crack is in the top cap, and it sounds as though it might be, and the material is brass, it could probably be soldered with success.

If it's aluminum I believe it would have to be welded. Replacing the top cap is another option that would probably require removal of the whole unit. And that's where labor costs could eat you up.

Regardless of the cracks location, I'd never depend on any sealant to last a respectable amount of time. Limp home from the lake, sure give it a try. Other than that a permenant repair is required.
#3
Old 06-05-2007, 11:09 AM
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Is it a crack in the tank or in the core (the tubes with the fins)? If it is in the tank, is the tank plastic or metal?
#4
Old 06-05-2007, 11:20 AM
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To reiterate previous posts, replace the radiator, dont trust a reseal or patch. It will just end up costing more money in the long run.

Fry
#5
Old 06-05-2007, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Is it a crack in the tank or in the core (the tubes with the fins)? If it is in the tank, is the tank plastic or metal?
It's the top of the tank, but off to one side quite a bit (the left side when leaning over the hood and facing the engine), well away from the radiator cap. The entire crack is visible and easily accessible without removing components. AFAICT, the tank is plastic.

GaryM ... is there any other kind of "permanent repair" other than radiator replacement?

There are two things I'm hoping are in my favor in my effort to delay radiator replacement (if that is inevitable):

1) I can get by only driving the 3 miles to work and back every day, topping off the radiator twice daily (only not with water going forward, but with a coolant/water mix). I am concerned that this could (or will ) make the crack larger -- the question then is "how fast?".

2) the location of the crack, being way up high and away from the cap.

If I can get a few more months (3 or 4) out of the radiator by employing temporary fixes, then I can afford the $400-600 I'll need for a new radiator plus labor. But right now, I'd have to lay the truck up in lieu of shelling out that much at one shot.
#6
Old 06-05-2007, 11:49 AM
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I fear you only risk making the problem worse the more you drive it, which can lead to much more expensive repairs. If your handy with tools replacing the radiator yourself is easy. Also, a decent radiator shop should be able to find you a new replacement for ~200 depending on application. Check online for the manual (pdf most likely) or a walkthrough from someone that has done it before. Also, I am sure you can find recomendations from a group that has a board for your vehicle type, which will include good parts to use at good prices, and the aformentioned walkthrough.

Fry
#7
Old 06-05-2007, 12:04 PM
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Interesting replies to a similar query at this link. The requestor over there added pictures of his radiator crack -- I should add that the crack in my radiator is nowhere near that big:

The raw-egg trick? Doesn't sound like a great idea:
Quote:
I'm no car buff, but on Mythbusters, they used a raw egg in the radiator to stop the leak.

Not sure what the long term effects or benefits are, but supposedly it works.
Several enthusiastic nods for JB Weld -- here's the most comprehensive one:

Quote:
Do this on a cold radiator:
1) Wire brush the area well.
2) Clean the area with Iso. Alcohol or Vodka.
3) Mix and apply JB Weld to the crack.
4) Toss in some Stop-Leak for good measure.
5) Enjoy your trip.
6) Start saving up for a new radiator.

I've used JB Weld to repair a cracked block effectively, (the patch lasted 20,000 miles until I sold the car) so I don't think the heat is going to be an issue.
Lastly, a response of interest because I don't think I'm driving far enough to overheat my car so long as the radiator is topped off before short trips. Only light wisps of steam escape from the crack when I drive to and from work ... I've been opening the hood and having a look upon parking yesterday and this morning. AFAICT, the only reason for the copious steam Friday was because the coolant level was low:

Quote:
If you are not over heating, you could try running a non-pressurized cooling system. If you have a lever radiator cap, leave the lever up. Otherwise you would have to find a way to make the cap not seal. Most radiator caps have a rubber ring for a seal. You can just cut the rubber seal (but this ruins the cap if you ever do get the radiator fixed) or find a way to make it not seat properly. Pressurization of the cooling system just gives you a higher boiling point for your coolant. If you are not pulling a heavy load up a mountain at high elevation, you would probably be OK.

Last edited by bordelond; 06-05-2007 at 12:06 PM.
#8
Old 06-05-2007, 12:23 PM
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A leak in a plastic tank pretty much means a replacement radiator is called for.
JB Weld may provide you with a semi-permanent fix, assuming you do everything right. A raw egg or alumaseal will only work if there is no pressure in the system, meaning you are leaving the cap loose.

Call around to some local radiator shops, I think your guesstimate of $400-$600 is a bit high.
#9
Old 06-05-2007, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
A leak in a plastic tank pretty much means a replacement radiator is called for.
Thanks for the advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
JB Weld may provide you with a semi-permanent fix, assuming you do everything right.
Sounds like it's very easy to screw up the application of JB Weld ... but the instructions above seem straightforward :shrug:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
A raw egg or alumaseal will only work if there is no pressure in the system, meaning you are leaving the cap loose.
Wow ... I hadn't taken the raw-egg thing seriously. Surely, that won't last a few thousand miles, even if I can likely get away with a non-pressurized cooling system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Call around to some local radiator shops, I think your guesstimate of $400-$600 is a bit high.
I will -- hope I'm wrong about the price of a replacement. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
#10
Old 06-05-2007, 01:03 PM
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A suggestion had been made to use Lab-Metal instead of JB Weld. No mixing, easy application, withstands temperatures of 350 degrees, fine for non-metal surfaces.

I'm not seeing the downside of this stuff, except that it is aluminum-based -- could there be a corrosion concern? My understanding is that coolant wears down aluminum over time.
#11
Old 06-05-2007, 01:07 PM
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Recent radiator repairs of the Spry-mobile came to $365, for a Honda Accord. $245 parts, $120 labor. This was at a garage we have used for a while as not the cheapest but very competent with a good reputation for integrity.
#12
Old 06-05-2007, 01:30 PM
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Are products like Bar's Leaks Radiator Stop Leak not recommended?
#13
Old 06-05-2007, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bordelond
Thanks for the advice.


Sounds like it's very easy to screw up the application of JB Weld ... but the instructions above seem straightforward :shrug:
Actually it is quite easy, but you need to have a super clean and DRY surface to apply it to, and it needs adequate cure time. I don't recall the cure time, check the package for more details. About the only other way to screw up JB Weld is to get the proportions wrong. It needs to mix 50/50 not 75/25.


Quote:
Wow ... I hadn't taken the raw-egg thing seriously. Surely, that won't last a few thousand miles, even if I can likely get away with a non-pressurized cooling system?
More like it will get you home from a trip and that is about it.

So what happened with the starter?

ETA: I have never had good luck with Bar's leak.

Last edited by Rick; 06-05-2007 at 01:32 PM.
#14
Old 06-05-2007, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
So what happened with the starter?
Well ... for now, I've changed my driving habits to accomodate the symptom. I just don't start the engine when it's hot anymore. Starts up fine every time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
ETA: I have never had good luck with Bar's leak.
As long as there's no real risk of damaging other components, I'm willing to give Bar's Leaks a shot as a medium-term solution. If I try that and it fails, I'm only out a few bucks.

I'm much more interested in the Lab-Metal stuff ... checking on distribution and such now.
#15
Old 06-06-2007, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bordelond
As long as there's no real risk of damaging other components, I'm willing to give Bar's Leaks a shot as a medium-term solution. If I try that and it fails, I'm only out a few bucks.
Bar's Leak's instructions strongly suggest a radiator flush before use. My current plan will be to drive the truck to and from work for 10 more days. That takes me to payday, and allows me to absorb the cost of the flush. In the interim, I will check the crack twice daily (as I've been doing) to make sure it's not getting longer. If I see it getting worse, I'll loosen the radiator cap to depressurize the cooling system, which I can apparently do safely for short trips.

Thanks for the advice, all!
#16
Old 06-06-2007, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bordelond
That takes me to payday, and allows me to absorb the cost of the flush.
I wouldn't be spending much money on a temporary repair. Replacing a radiator can be a fairly simple job to do yourself, and a radiator from a place like AutoZone should be fairly inexpensive (and good enough for an old truck). Take a look at the radiator and see how hard it will be to remove. It may be surprisingly easy.

I have had plastic tanks replaced before, but with inexpensive radiators available from auto parts stores, I wouldn't do it again. Check online to see what a radiator would cost.
#17
Old 06-06-2007, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag Otto
I wouldn't be spending much money on a temporary repair. Replacing a radiator can be a fairly simple job to do yourself, and a radiator from a place like AutoZone should be fairly inexpensive (and good enough for an old truck). Take a look at the radiator and see how hard it will be to remove. It may be surprisingly easy.

I have had plastic tanks replaced before, but with inexpensive radiators available from auto parts stores, I wouldn't do it again. Check online to see what a radiator would cost.
At AutoZone, there are three replacement radiators available for my make/model/year truck, rangins from $125-160. The flush is about $90 or less, as I haven't called around yet. The Bar's Leak was $3.50.

I need to have a closer look at the radiator and the stuff around it ... I'm looking at it enough as it is already checking out that crack all the time. I should go to the library or Barnes & Noble and flip through a Chilton's. Nissans usually have a bunch of stuff in the way of various under-the-hood components, which can discourage even decent home mechanics (which I am not). There's also the I-might-miss-reconnecting-comething factor ... although it seems like only one hose in, one hose out.

Last edited by bordelond; 06-06-2007 at 01:04 PM.
#18
Old 06-06-2007, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dag Otto
I wouldn't be spending much money on a temporary repair. Replacing a radiator can be a fairly simple job to do yourself, and a radiator from a place like AutoZone should be fairly inexpensive (and good enough for an old truck). Take a look at the radiator and see how hard it will be to remove. It may be surprisingly easy.

I have had plastic tanks replaced before, but with inexpensive radiators available from auto parts stores, I wouldn't do it again. Check online to see what a radiator would cost.
I agree. Generally, it's easier to change out a radiator in a pickup than a car. If you have some mechanical ability, you should be able to do the job. If you have one problem w/ your current radiator, it's likely you'll have more. I'd bet that you're just putting off the inevitable, and wasting money, in trying to patch up the old radiator.
#19
Old 06-06-2007, 03:12 PM
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Here is another cautious vote for replacing the radiator yourself. It is usually the easiest engine work that you will do. The one caveat I can think of is, if it is an auto transmission, make sure that the transmission cooler is not integral to the radiator, that makes it a little more complex. This is not really likely, as I have only seen this on older American cars.

If it is a manual, I say go for it without worries. Flipping through the Chilton repair manual to get the gist of the process usually can't hurt, but be aware that they are sometimes wrong. I had a fun time looking for my EGR valve while troubleshooting a problem on my Ranger, only to eventually find that my particular engine never had one.

Last edited by scabpicker; 06-06-2007 at 03:13 PM.
#20
Old 06-06-2007, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scabpicker
Here is another cautious vote for replacing the radiator yourself. It is usually the easiest engine work that you will do. The one caveat I can think of is, if it is an auto transmission, make sure that the transmission cooler is not integral to the radiator, that makes it a little more complex. This is not really likely, as I have only seen this on older American cars.

Off the top of my head I cannot think of any auto trans car that does not have the oil cooler in the radiator.
#21
Old 06-06-2007, 03:20 PM
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I've tried to patch a radiator in the past on an old BMW. No matter what I used, it didn't work. The surface that was cracked was plastic.

I even tried epoxy. Whatever I put on just ended up melting off.

There's a good chance I didn't do it right.
#22
Old 06-06-2007, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick

Off the top of my head I cannot think of any auto trans car that does not have the oil cooler in the radiator.
I do, in fact, have an automatic. Does this take the job out of the realm of the inexperienced do-it-yourselfer? I can turn a wrench, and my dad is an excellent mechanic who can walk me through the job.
#23
Old 06-06-2007, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bordelond
I do, in fact, have an automatic. Does this take the job out of the realm of the inexperienced do-it-yourselfer? I can turn a wrench, and my dad is an excellent mechanic who can walk me through the job.
I'm sure Rick will be along soon, but I don't see why it should make much difference in the job. You'll need to make sure you have the proper new radiator, that's essential. Your dad should be familiar w/ this.
#24
Old 06-06-2007, 04:43 PM
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If your radiator is aluminum, don't use water. It will just corrode and the problem will escalate. You have to use a coolant in it instead of water. If it is brass, use a mixture of water and anti-freeze, summer or winter. In either case, temporary fixes are ok, but with an aluminum radiator, you will need to replace. With a brass radiator you can get an adequate long lasting repair. Have your cooling system flushed out in either case.
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#25
Old 06-06-2007, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bordelond
I do, in fact, have an automatic. Does this take the job out of the realm of the inexperienced do-it-yourselfer? I can turn a wrench, and my dad is an excellent mechanic who can walk me through the job.
Not at all, it just makes it a little harder that's all.
The oil cooler will be inside the radiator and most likely has 2 threaded fitting. Usually they are on one side or the other of the radiator. You will need to drain the radiator. (Do not drain into the street, antifreeze is poisonous and tastes like candy to animals. Dispose of properly and legally.) After the radiator is drained of coolant, then put a oil drain pan under the side of the radiator that has the oil cooler fittings. Loosen the fittings and allow to drain. You can probably do this with an open end wrench, but if they are very tight, you will need a flare nut wrench.
After the oil lines have drained, remove the mounting bolts and remove the radiator.
When installing put the cooler lines on before you tighten the radiator down to the core support. You DO NOT want to cross thread one of these fittings. They should screw on by hand until almost tight. If it only turns about 1/2 a turn and then gets tight it is probably cross threaded.
Don't forget to tighten everything and top up the trans with the correct fluid before driving away.
#26
Old 06-06-2007, 05:38 PM
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You'll probably want new hose clamps and likely new hoses. You can reuse the coolant, as long as it isn't contaminated, but you'll probably lose some, so you'll need extra to replace what's lost. Also, as rick advised, some new tranny fluid.
You might take a look at the water pump while you've got the radiator out, see if the shaft has excess play, or if there are any signs of leaking.
#27
Old 06-06-2007, 06:45 PM
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Hmmm ... might leave it to the professionals, after all. Thanks for the advice.
#28
Old 06-07-2007, 02:52 AM
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Plastic radiator tanks are not reliably repairable. Radiator shops will not even attempt fixing them. That said, I have seen a do-it-yourself job with JB Weld or something similar that was holding. How long it might hold, I couldn't say. I won't attempt it either, because my customers have expectations of reliability in my repairs.

I have seen Bar's leaks work successfully a number of times. For this type of leak, I would say the odds are good. It's certainly a cheap thing to try first. Bear in mind it's not a permanent repair, though I have sometimes seen it work for years.
#29
Old 06-07-2007, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robcaro
If your radiator is aluminum, don't use water. It will just corrode and the problem will escalate. You have to use a coolant in it instead of water. If it is brass, use a mixture of water and anti-freeze, summer or winter.
Sigh.

No, no, no.

Coolant is whatever liquid is in the cooling system.

The proper coolant for ALL vehicles is a 50/50 mix of water and the correct antifreeze. The radiator material is irrelevant.

Pure water is not recommended because it can freeze, it can boil out, and it fosters corrosion in the metals it contacts in numerous engine parts - radiator, heater core, cylinder head, coolant pipes, etc.

Pure antifreeze is not recommended because it doesn't transfer heat as well as water.

So don't use ONLY water in ANY cooling system, except for emergencies in non-freezing weather. And don't use ONLY antifreeze in ANY cooling system, except for emergencies.
#30
Old 06-07-2007, 09:54 AM
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Thanks for the replies, Gary T.
#31
Old 06-07-2007, 11:51 AM
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Barrs Leak will only work if the liquid coolant is in contact with the hole/crack. From your description it sounds as if the coolant is not actually in contact with the crack. (Barr's works by oozing through and solidifying on the leak area).

Regards
FML

(Note- an old 1930's depression era "fix" for a radiator/coolant leak was finely ground black pepper. It would essentially work the same way BArr's does (By plugging/solidifying around the edges of the hole)
#32
Old 06-07-2007, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Metal Lotus
Barrs Leak will only work if the liquid coolant is in contact with the hole/crack. From your description it sounds as if the coolant is not actually in contact with the crack. (Barr's works by oozing through and solidifying on the leak area).
Hard for me to tell ... tiny bubbles and wisps of steam come out of the crack. But I don't know if Bar's Leak can "bubble and wisp" it's way into a crack like that at the very top of the radiator.
#33
Old 06-07-2007, 04:32 PM
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If the cooling system is full - all air bled out - there will be liquid at the top of the upper tank.
#34
Old 06-07-2007, 04:44 PM
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JB Weld is indeed good stuff for lots of repairs. It held the bumper cover on my car for 60-thousand miles.

While doing this little project, I got some drops on the floor and I called the JB Weld company and asked about what may take it off. I was given two options: a grinder or heat it to over 450-degrees. Tough stuff.

As this was a vinyl floor, I left the little drops in place.

450 is from memory but I think it's right. Over 400 for sure.
#35
Old 06-07-2007, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary T
If the cooling system is full - all air bled out - there will be liquid at the top of the upper tank.
If it means anything ... whenever I top off the coolant/water mix, I fill it up as much as possible (letting it settle, then fill a little more, rinse, repeat). The last few times I've done it, I was only able to get in maybe 2 cups.
#36
Old 06-12-2007, 03:04 PM
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FWIW ... the Bar's Leaks stuff has worked great. Still check under the hood for bubbles and steam after my drives to work. So far, nada.
#37
Old 08-27-2007, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary T
Plastic radiator tanks are not reliably repairable. Radiator shops will not even attempt fixing them. That said, I have seen a do-it-yourself job with JB Weld or something similar that was holding. How long it might hold, I couldn't say. I won't attempt it either, because my customers have expectations of reliability in my repairs.

I have seen Bar's leaks work successfully a number of times. For this type of leak, I would say the odds are good. It's certainly a cheap thing to try first. Bear in mind it's not a permanent repair, though I have sometimes seen it work for years.
Okay, time for a final update (hopefully), in case someone searches for this problem.

The Bars Leak didn't work all that long. For a while, it kept the leak slowed down, but over time the cork shavings (or whatever that stuff) starting leaking out through the crack with the coolant.

Two weeks ago, the truck had a near-meltdown on the road -- clouds of steam everywhere, and the temperature gauge rose to just short of the max.

Turns out that all those times I was adding coolant and/or water, I was doing it while the engine was cold. It was explained to me that doing this ensured that I wasn't adding enough, and that over time, the coolant level was decreasing.

So, I got some 50/50 coolant mix, topped off the radiator cold, started the trucked, let it idle five minutes, topped off the radiator again, and then capped the radiator and took off driving. The overheating went away instantly -- back to the normal temperature range.

Of course, the crack was still there ... and that was addressed as well this past weekend. Versa-Chem's Plastic Tank & Radiator Repair Kit seems like it's going to be the answer. It involves applying a layer of resin, fiberglass, and more resin. Once it hardened, it gave the appearance of a very strong and substantial fix, with some flexibility so as not to be brittle. It's been going strong for 3 days so far, with not so much as a wisp of coolant escaping. The product claims to be a permanent fix ... guess we'll see.

Last edited by bordelond; 08-27-2007 at 06:23 PM.
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