#1
Old 01-09-2010, 07:32 AM
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Punt on 3rd down.

Is there ever a situation where punting on 3rd down makes sense? I've heard of this happening but can't wrap my head around a situation where you would want to do this.
#2
Old 01-09-2010, 07:56 AM
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Basically if you figure you will never get a first down anyway(ie 3 and 27 ) So you have the QB do a quick pooch punt while nobody is back to return it so it will roll and roll to wherever it can.
#3
Old 01-09-2010, 08:17 AM
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Just spitballing here. Your starting QB goes out in the first drive. The backup comes in to finish the game. He gets his bell rung in some way on 2nd down such that he needs several minutes before he can come back. If you bring in the emergency QB, you can't put the backup back in the game until the fourth quarter, so maybe just punt it away on 3rd and let the backup come back in next possession.

Then again, after having watched a couple seasons with the wildcat I'm not sure if you are actually required to have one of your declared QBs on the field for any given play. I always thought you were, but I saw Sanchez on the sidelines an awful lot last week while Brad Smith -- a WR -- took snaps. According to their unoffical depth chart Kellen Clemens is the backup and Smith is a WR behind Braylon Edwards. Meaning they had many plays where no QB was on the field, so I guess this idea doesn't apply.

Last edited by Ellis Dee; 01-09-2010 at 08:18 AM.
#4
Old 01-09-2010, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfman View Post
Basically if you figure you will never get a first down anyway(ie 3 and 27 ) So you have the QB do a quick pooch punt while nobody is back to return it so it will roll and roll to wherever it can.
Yes, I once saw a punt go 80 yards on 3rd down. It was a great call, since it was 3rd and 25.
#5
Old 01-09-2010, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfman View Post
Basically if you figure you will never get a first down anyway(ie 3 and 27 ) So you have the QB do a quick pooch punt while nobody is back to return it so it will roll and roll to wherever it can.
Exactly. I know I saw Randall Cunningham do it at some point, though I'll be darned if I remember the context...but I'm betting it was 3rd-and-long.
#6
Old 01-09-2010, 12:57 PM
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Punting on 3rd and real long is an underused good tactic. i think coaches fear what will be said about them.

kind of like that is when a team is down by 3 touchdowns has the ball with 30 seconds left and keeps calling time-out and trying to score.

you see this a lot. i mean, come on. you're still a man. just run out the clock.
#7
Old 01-09-2010, 01:11 PM
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It's a good idea if you're in Canada.
#8
Old 01-09-2010, 01:55 PM
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I remember one Alabama game in the late 1970s where the Crimson Tide used a "quick kick" by the quarterback several times to great effect. Bear Bryant used a wishbone offense which was not conducive to passing on third and long. So for that one game he had several players practice quick kicks. I don't think it would be a good strategy on a long term basis.. defensive coaches would start keeping a player deep and you could get a long return if the regular offensive team doesn't know how to cover properly.
#9
Old 01-09-2010, 02:04 PM
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I think the Randall Cunningham punt happened from 3rd and long, back up against his own end zone, so rather than drop back for a long pass and risk the safety, he quick punted over the defenses heads, and the ball kept rolling for something like an 80 yard net.

It wasn't the only time Cunningham punted on 3rd down. He was one of the last of the old time punting quarterbacks.

I think Danny White used to punt on 3rd down sometimes too when he was both the starting QB and the punter for the Dallas Cowboys (and I'm pretty sure he's the last QB to do that).

I also remember Joe Theismann trying a 3rd down punt one time that went straight sideways off his foot out of bounds for a one yard punt.
#10
Old 01-09-2010, 03:35 PM
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I remember Tom Brady punting on 3rd down, but I think they were at midfield. Which is kind of crazy.
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Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
I think Danny White used to punt on 3rd down sometimes too when he was both the starting QB and the punter for the Dallas Cowboys (and I'm pretty sure he's the last QB to do that).
Tom Tupa was pressed into that role for the Jets after Vinny's achilles exploded.
#11
Old 01-09-2010, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Ellis Dee View Post
I remember Tom Brady punting on 3rd down, but I think they were at midfield. Which is kind of crazy.
I misremembered the down. It was 4th and 10 on the Dolphin 37. Looks like they lined up as if to go for it and Brady pooched it right over their heads. Worked pretty well, too, since it was downed at the 1.
#12
Old 01-09-2010, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
I also remember Joe Theismann trying a 3rd down punt one time that went straight sideways off his foot out of bounds for a one yard punt.
I'm pretty sure this was a normal 4th down punt. Theismann was trying to fill in for the injured punter.
#13
Old 01-09-2010, 04:42 PM
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If the punter is injured normally the place kicker will punt.
#14
Old 01-09-2010, 05:07 PM
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Pepper Rodgers at Georgia Tech used to do it a lot. Several times a season. 3rd and long. Back in the days when defense ruled, football games were won with field position.

Last edited by notfrommensa; 01-09-2010 at 05:08 PM. Reason: it is Pepper Rodgers not Rogers
#15
Old 01-09-2010, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
If the punter is injured normally the place kicker will punt.
Like in today Jets/Bengals game. Jay Feely, the Jets' place kicker had to punt.

Gibbs and Theismann were in the broadcast booth and they showed Theismann's punt. Gibbs said they went to backup QB Jay Schroeder to punt then. He never mentioned why he didn't want Mark Mosley to punt.
#16
Old 01-09-2010, 06:44 PM
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[hijack]

Mark Moseley, the last of the straight on full time place-kickers. Dick Borgognone played two games for the Vikings back in the mid-90's. he was striaght on kicker.

Moseley was AP NFL MVP back in 1982, which is a honor usually reserved for QBs and Running Backs.

[/hijack]
#17
Old 01-09-2010, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
I think the Randall Cunningham punt happened from 3rd and long, back up against his own end zone, so rather than drop back for a long pass and risk the safety, he quick punted over the defenses heads, and the ball kept rolling for something like an 80 yard net.
It was 91 yards - this came up on the 98 yard punt thread just a couple days ago. Video here, though it doesn't show how far the ball rolled.
#18
Old 01-09-2010, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfman View Post
Basically if you figure you will never get a first down anyway(ie 3 and 27 ) So you have the QB do a quick pooch punt while nobody is back to return it so it will roll and roll to wherever it can.
Isn't that an incomplete pass though? If not what is the difference between the two? I thought you had to declare that you were kicking in order for this to work?
#19
Old 01-09-2010, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notfrommensa View Post
[hijack]

Mark Moseley, the last of the straight on full time place-kickers. Dick Borgognone played two games for the Vikings back in the mid-90's. he was striaght on kicker.

Moseley was AP NFL MVP back in 1982, which is a honor usually reserved for QBs and Running Backs.

[/hijack]
Are kickers now all gay?
#20
Old 01-10-2010, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notfrommensa View Post
[hijack]

Mark Moseley, the last of the straight on full time place-kickers. Dick Borgognone played two games for the Vikings back in the mid-90's. he was striaght on kicker.

Moseley was AP NFL MVP back in 1982, which is a honor usually reserved for QBs and Running Backs.

[/hijack]
You a Redskins fan, nfm?
#21
Old 01-10-2010, 12:47 AM
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Another reason (but more likely to be seen at lower levels) is when you're facing 3rd and long, but with a strong wind at your back, going into the end of the quarter. May be better than to run a play and punt into the wind after the break.
#22
Old 01-10-2010, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubsfan View Post
Isn't that an incomplete pass though? If not what is the difference between the two? I thought you had to declare that you were kicking in order for this to work?
You never have to say you're punting. You can punt on any down as long as it's behind the line of scrimmage. A punt is most certainly not in any way the same as a forward pass.
#23
Old 01-10-2010, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Maserschmidt View Post
You a Redskins fan, nfm?
Used to be an avid fan, back in the Kilmer/Riggins/Theisman and yes Moseley days.

It is hard for me to get committed to any team these days, in any sport. After the 1994 baseball strike, I became really bitter. My favorite uncle, a former minor league baseball player, was a devoted baseball fan. He died in November, 1994. The strike deprived my uncle of his last World Series.
#24
Old 01-10-2010, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garygnu View Post
You never have to say you're punting. You can punt on any down as long as it's behind the line of scrimmage. A punt is most certainly not in any way the same as a forward pass.
Exactly. A "quick kick" is, essentially, a punt that the defense isn't expecting.

When a team punts normally, they send out the punter, the long snapper (who is almost always *not* the usual center), and a bunch of other special-teamers. 99.99% of the time, this is done on 4th down (honestly, I can't think of a reason why you'd do this on any down *other* than 4th, unless you had no confidence whatsoever that you offense could take care of the ball on a prior down). The defense thus knows that there's a punt coming (unless the offense is planning a fake punt, but a good special-teams coach plans for that), and sends out their punt-coverage team, including a returner, who's going to position himself 40-50 yards downfield.

When a team runs a "quick kick", it's almost always done on third-and-long (as in the Randall Cunningham example), and it's almost always done using normal offensive personnel. It does require a quarterback (or whoever's receiving the snap) who's a decent punter. You run a quick-kick when you think you've got the element of surprise, since the advantage to a quick kick is that the defense doesn't know it's coming. They don't have a returner stationed downfield, and, so, the odds are strong that the punt will be able to bounce/roll, getting additional yardage.

Regardless of which down you punt on, when you punt, the other team takes possession of the ball where the punt ends (or where the return ends, if it's returned). So, it's *very* different from throwing a long incomplete pass (on which the ball comes back to the previous line of scrimmage).

Last edited by kenobi 65; 01-10-2010 at 01:04 PM.
#25
Old 01-10-2010, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Scud View Post
It was 91 yards - this came up on the 98 yard punt thread just a couple days ago. Video here, though it doesn't show how far the ball rolled.
But there's clearly a defensive player back deep on that play near midfield (It looks like #30m but I can't tell for sure) who decides not to field the punt. So I don't think this was a surprise quick kick.
#26
Old 01-11-2010, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
Exactly. A "quick kick" is, essentially, a punt that the defense isn't expecting.

When a team punts normally, they send out the punter, the long snapper (who is almost always *not* the usual center), and a bunch of other special-teamers. 99.99% of the time, this is done on 4th down (honestly, I can't think of a reason why you'd do this on any down *other* than 4th, unless you had no confidence whatsoever that you offense could take care of the ball on a prior down). The defense thus knows that there's a punt coming (unless the offense is planning a fake punt, but a good special-teams coach plans for that), and sends out their punt-coverage team, including a returner, who's going to position himself 40-50 yards downfield.

When a team runs a "quick kick", it's almost always done on third-and-long (as in the Randall Cunningham example), and it's almost always done using normal offensive personnel. It does require a quarterback (or whoever's receiving the snap) who's a decent punter. You run a quick-kick when you think you've got the element of surprise, since the advantage to a quick kick is that the defense doesn't know it's coming. They don't have a returner stationed downfield, and, so, the odds are strong that the punt will be able to bounce/roll, getting additional yardage.

Regardless of which down you punt on, when you punt, the other team takes possession of the ball where the punt ends (or where the return ends, if it's returned). So, it's *very* different from throwing a long incomplete pass (on which the ball comes back to the previous line of scrimmage).
So do the same rules apply as in a regular punt? Meaning if the opposing team touches the ball can the kicking team recover and retain possession?

I know this sounds like a dumb semantic question here but is the only thing that differentiates a "punt" from a "pass" the fact that you are moving the ball with your foot instead of your hand? Is this why a punt on 3rd down is not an incomplete pass, but a hail-mary thrown on the same down by the same QB an incomplete pass?

Not sure I'm asking this question right.
#27
Old 01-11-2010, 12:13 AM
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Yes x4
#28
Old 01-11-2010, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garygnu View Post
Yes x4
Last question on this, as I still think it's bizarre.

If it's 3rd down and I punt, it touches a linemans helmet, bounces down field and my team mate recovers it is it now 1st down? Are those yards counted as yards gained during the game?
#29
Old 01-11-2010, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubsfan View Post
Last question on this, as I still think it's bizarre.

If it's 3rd down and I punt, it touches a linemans helmet, bounces down field and my team mate recovers it is it now 1st down? Are those yards counted as yards gained during the game?
I assume you mean a defensive lineman, here. And I believe the key difference is which side of the line of scrimmage the defender is on when the ball touches him. The defender can try and block the kick before it passes the line of scrimmage. In that case, there's been no change of possession, and the down doesn't reset, so even if the kicking team does get it back, they probably don't have enough yards for a first down. It would take either a very very very bizarre bounce all the way to the first down marker or a very very bizarre bounce to your teammate blocking plus a crazy run by your teammate to reach the first down marker. I think this would be an offensive play and count the yardage.

Once the ball passes the line of scrimmage, and a defender (on the receiving team) touches it, I think possession has changed and so whoever ends up with the ball gets a first down. For stats, this would be a kick plus a fumble, not offensive yardage.
#30
Old 01-11-2010, 09:18 AM
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Yeah, that's my understanding as well. Far more common (though still not very common at all) is a defender trying to block the punt only gets a piece of it, making the punt weak but still go 30 yards or so. In that case the punting team can't just fall on it and recover possession because the defender touched the ball on the wrong side of the line of scrimmage.
#31
Old 01-11-2010, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quercus View Post
Once the ball passes the line of scrimmage, and a defender (on the receiving team) touches it, I think possession has changed and so whoever ends up with the ball gets a first down.
They don't need to gain control of the ball for possession to change? This is different than a failed interception attempt then, where they can jump up, swat the ball, bumble it around for a while, but don't gain control before the ball hits the ground? In that case possession doesn't change. But with a quick undeclared punt those rules don't apply any more? All it takes is a fingertip to change possession?
#32
Old 01-11-2010, 09:40 AM
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Depends on how you view possession. Technically it changes from being in possession of the receiving team to a live ball in nobody's possession, meaning anyone on the field can jump on it just like a fumble.

If it gets knocked out of bounds during the live ball phase, possession reverts back to the last team that had possession, also just like a fumble.

Basically, once the receiving team touches the ball past the line of scrimmage it's a fumble. (Though for stat purposes it's called a "muff", not a fumble, if the returner tried to catch it and failed.)
#33
Old 01-11-2010, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubsfan View Post
All it takes is a fingertip to change possession?
On a punt downfield, correct.

Also, if the punter has the punt blocked (behind the line of scrimmage), it's a loose ball (fumble), and the defense can pick it up and advance. video

Last edited by Munch; 01-11-2010 at 09:49 AM.
#34
Old 01-11-2010, 10:18 AM
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Yep, so basically the line of scrimmage is a magical line that once the ball passes, it's receiver's possession even if a member of the receiving team got a piece of it. But until it crosses the line of scrimmage it's a live ball. After crossing the line of scrimmage it's not live unless/until a member of the receiving team touches it.

EXCEPT, heh, if the receiver calls for a fair catch and bobbles it. Even though he touched the ball and doesn't have possession, the punting team cannot touch him or the ball until the ball hits the ground. Otherwise it's a fair catch interference call.

I think the "hit the ground" isn't written in stone, in that if the punt bounces of the guy's helmet and launches in the air 20 feet away I don't think there's an issue with fair catch interference if you run over and catch it, but I don't the precise rule for that situation.
#35
Old 01-11-2010, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldGuy View Post
But there's clearly a defensive player back deep on that play near midfield (It looks like #30m but I can't tell for sure) who decides not to field the punt. So I don't think this was a surprise quick kick.
Yeah, it looks like the Eagles were lined up in punt formation, but with their regular offense on the field, so probably the Giants had a chance to drop someone back (though hard to tell, and I don't remember clearly enough, if they had enough time for the guy to get all the way back, and he'd have been a free safety or cornerback or something and not a regular punt returner).
#36
Old 01-12-2010, 09:44 AM
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I was at a Florida game during Steve Spurrier's tenure as coach there. He decided to punt on a 3rd down simply because he was so frustrated by his offense's performance that day.
#37
Old 01-12-2010, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
Exactly. A "quick kick" is, essentially, a punt that the defense isn't expecting.

When a team punts normally, they send out the punter, the long snapper (who is almost always *not* the usual center), and a bunch of other special-teamers. 99.99% of the time, this is done on 4th down (honestly, I can't think of a reason why you'd do this on any down *other* than 4th, unless you had no confidence whatsoever that you offense could take care of the ball on a prior down).
You do it if you want to pin the other team deep in their territory, and you have confidence that your defense will be able to stop the other team.

Back in the day, when offenses were not nearly so potent, this was a common strategy.
#38
Old 01-12-2010, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Cubsfan View Post
So do the same rules apply as in a regular punt? Meaning if the opposing team touches the ball can the kicking team recover and retain possession?

I know this sounds like a dumb semantic question here but is the only thing that differentiates a "punt" from a "pass" the fact that you are moving the ball with your foot instead of your hand? Is this why a punt on 3rd down is not an incomplete pass, but a hail-mary thrown on the same down by the same QB an incomplete pass?

Not sure I'm asking this question right.
The rules aren't identical. if you don't line up for a punt I don't believe the punter gets protection from the defense, in other words no roughing the kicker calls.
#39
Old 01-12-2010, 04:44 PM
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November 27, 1925: #1 ranked University of Michigan plays creampuff Northwestern at Soldier Field in Chicago. After buckets of rain had flooded the field, it had become little more than a mudpit. From http://hailtopurple.com/features/beres03.html (bolding mine):
Quote:
Northwestern took the opening kickoff and was stopped inside its 30. The Wildcats immediately established the stalemate pattern for the game by punting on first down. Clearly, it was a liability to have possession of the ball on your side of midfield.

That first punt became the game's pivotal point. Michigan's All-American quarterback, Benny Friedman, fumbled the ball, and Northwestern recovered deep in Wolverine territory.

Three attempts into the line gained nothing. Then Wildcat fullback, Tiny Lewis, moved back to the Wolverine 18 to try a drop-kicked field goal. The kick had just enough distance to get over the crossbar, barely missing one of the uprights. For the first time in six games, Michigan had been scored upon!

The field goal, coming on the first series of the game, was with a comparatively dry ball. Soon the ball became waterlogged, making it even harder to handle and further neutralizing the offenses. The supply of balls was limited. Eckersall was able to put new ones into play only twice: at the start of the third and fourth quarters.

For the rest of the game, nature dictated identical game plans for both teams: make two attempts to gain, then punt on third down. When two plays failed to gain a first down (there was only one in the game), it became routine for Eckersall to call time so he could wipe the ball for the anticipated third down punt.
Michigan had won its previous five games by a combined score of 180-0. But Northwestern's field goal won this game, costing Michigan the national championship.

I highly recommend the link above for the full entertaining account of the game.

ETA: Later in the game, Northwestern took an intentional safety to secure the 3-2 win.

Last edited by Skammer; 01-12-2010 at 04:47 PM.
#40
Old 01-12-2010, 04:53 PM
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It's a good idea if you're in Canada.
Not always.
#41
Old 01-12-2010, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Petey View Post
I'm pretty sure this was a normal 4th down punt. Theismann was trying to fill in for the injured punter.
Video here (at 1:55).
#42
Old 10-25-2012, 05:26 AM
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3rd down punt

The only other conceivable reason for a team to punt on third down, is if a) it's the last play of the game, with no hope of winning; and b) your punter is one punt short of a record. There are many horrible teams in the NFL this year, for instance. Since their punters always seem to be busy anyway, they might as well shoot for something !
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