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#1
Old 09-23-2010, 08:54 AM
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John Constantine vs Harry Dresden

Suppose John Constantine (rhymes with wine) decides to visit Chicago. His usual luck catches up to him, and general Bad ThingsTM happen with him in the middle. The White Counsel of wizards sends their resident warden, Harry Dresden, to investigate.

Harry notices a rogue wizard smack in the middle of some bad shit. He naturally figures Constantine must be the cause. He figures he has to take Constantine on. Constantine realizes that there's a powerful wizard gunning for him, and retaliates, or at least must protect himself.

We all know that at the end of the (comic)book, they both will end up as allies. But how does the first (several) conflicts go down?
#2
Old 09-23-2010, 08:57 AM
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Constantine gets his arse handed to him in seven different ways, but somehow ends up having Dresden by the balls.
#3
Old 09-23-2010, 09:12 AM
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Hell's bell, I don't care. I demand someone draw this series NOW!!.
#4
Old 09-23-2010, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by StusBlues View Post
Constantine gets his arse handed to him in seven different ways, but somehow ends up having Dresden by the balls.
Yup. Constantine's main power is leveraging other badasses into doing what Constantine wants them to do.
#5
Old 09-23-2010, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Attack from the 3rd dimension View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by StusBlues View Post
Constantine gets his arse handed to him in seven different ways, but somehow ends up having Dresden by the balls.
Yup. Constantine's main power is leveraging other badasses into doing what Constantine wants them to do.
Which Harry is really vulnerable to. Just throw in a damsel in distress.
#6
Old 09-23-2010, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Crowbar of Irony +3 View Post
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Originally Posted by Attack from the 3rd dimension View Post

Yup. Constantine's main power is leveraging other badasses into doing what Constantine wants them to do.
Which Harry is really vulnerable to. Just throw in a damsel in distress.
Of course, Constantine's morally flexible to endanger someone to use as bait.
#7
Old 09-23-2010, 01:52 PM
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So, that movie about 10 years ago with Keenu Reeves called "Constantine"
was, ummm, "inspired" by the comic book character?

I loved the Dresden files. How do you have Charmed run for 35 seasons but something like Dresden gets canned. Never mind. Rhetorical question.
#8
Old 09-23-2010, 01:55 PM
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The book series is still running, and it's damned good.

Regarding the hypothetical, Dresden will get his ass handed to him pretty consistently right up until all the clues line up for him, at which time he and Constantine will kick some serious ass together.
#9
Old 09-23-2010, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by dzero View Post
So, that movie about 10 years ago with Keenu Reeves called "Constantine"
was, ummm, "inspired" by the comic book character?

I loved the Dresden files. How do you have Charmed run for 35 seasons but something like Dresden gets canned. Never mind. Rhetorical question.
The movie was five years ago, but a lot of people said it was a pretty poor adaptation. So was the show based on the Dresden Files; not only was it a sorry attempt to adapt the books, and not only did they hack the pilot down from 125 minutes to 45, of the 12 episodes only the last two were shown in production order so it hardly made sense continuity-wise. The fact that it was canceled is not a shocker. I'd love for HBO or Showtime to reboot DF and make it a lot more faithful to the books than Syfy's attempt.

I've only seen the movie, so I don't have a good grasp on how Constantine would interact with Harry. I guess it could sort of go like Proven Guilty, with Harry slowly realizing that he wasn't looking for the bad guy he thought he was. Sue needs to be involved, though. Has to be.
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#10
Old 09-24-2010, 05:08 AM
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The Syfy version of Dresden had a pretty solid actor playing Harry, they did a great job with interpreting Bob(and had a good actor playing him), and that's about it. Nothing else about the series was appealing to me. I first saw an episode before I'd read the books, and I saw a couple episodes on Hulu or something after I'd read them all. Just utterly forgettable.

I like what I'm hearing about a Harry-John showdown so far. Harry would dominate in the first battle with John barely making an escape, John would pull out a surprise on their second meeting, then in the end, Harry will end up working towards John's goals. Or maybe they'll meet without magic flying, and they'll form a grudging alliance, working towards the same goals, but arguing how to go about it.

How would John fair from a 'obey the laws of magic' standpoint?
#11
Old 09-24-2010, 05:24 AM
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I only want the theme song to be Black Angel, White Angel or show up on the soundtrack somewhere.

It's a fluid situation, the views are almost black and white.... combining grey. Religious or Saracen.

Last edited by devilsknew; 09-24-2010 at 05:25 AM.
#12
Old 09-24-2010, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Face Intentionally Left Blank View Post
How would John fair from a 'obey the laws of magic' standpoint?
Not very well. According to Ennis' interpretation, JC puts "the fix" on people on a regular basis. Using the Jedi Mind Trick is a big No No according to The White Counsel.
#13
Old 09-24-2010, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Maus Magill View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Face Intentionally Left Blank View Post
How would John fair from a 'obey the laws of magic' standpoint?
Not very well. According to Ennis' interpretation, JC puts "the fix" on people on a regular basis. Using the Jedi Mind Trick is a big No No according to The White Counsel.
Does the 4th law of magic, the no mind control one, only apply to people, or would it apply to demons, too? If it's the latter, it'd make exorcism hard.
#14
Old 09-24-2010, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by elfkin477 View Post
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Originally Posted by Maus Magill View Post
Not very well. According to Ennis' interpretation, JC puts "the fix" on people on a regular basis. Using the Jedi Mind Trick is a big No No according to The White Counsel.
Does the 4th law of magic, the no mind control one, only apply to people, or would it apply to demons, too? If it's the latter, it'd make exorcism hard.
Most of the Laws seem to extend only to humans, but judging by Storm Front the Fourth Law is one that extends to creatures of the Nevernever as well. Seems a little inconsistent to me, but.

Anyway, exorcisms don't seem to be covered. Dresden's mentioned in later books that he used to do them on occasion. The Fourth Law allows compulsion through prior arrangements, or acting to exploit the rules a magical creature must abide by. This is why Dresden can force a fae to answer him truly three times without falling afoul of the Law, or coerce a spirit. It's only direct seizing of the mind that's unLawful.
#15
Old 09-24-2010, 01:40 PM
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It only applies to humans as far as I can tell.
My dear bride and I are enjoying the book series now.
We are reading 'Proven Guilty'.
The books get better as the series progresses which says a lot about the author's skills.
#16
Old 04-09-2012, 08:50 PM
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Victory Dresden

This is a tough one because I love both series. I have to give the battle to Dresden. He becomes a seriously heavy hitter in the power and battle magic arena and that isn't really Johns style (John isn't weak, but usually doesn't do the whole massive field effect "oops I just turned a building to ashes" thing magic).

John could call down a demon and split, but low level demons aren't really that big of a deal toward the later books to Dresden, so it would have to be a hoss.

John could call zombies....Dresden has a good handle on zombies.

Also, Dresden wouldn't kill him (with magic) without a damn good reason with the 1st Law in play. He usually thinks before putting a bullet through some one as well.

John is the far better con man though and him getting his ass kicked between the ears will surely play out to his benefit. Harry has screwed over some rather witty characters as well. John is certainly the more cunning of the two.
#17
Old 04-09-2012, 09:21 PM
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Welcome to the Dope, Papa Midnight.

You'll notice that the thread in which you're posting has been lying dormant the last couple of years, so in the lingo of the boards, you've "resurrected a zombie thread". The fact that you've resurrected it with a post about zombies with a voodoo-esque name like Papa Midnight is excellent.

Poke around for a while and check it out. Based on your single post to date, you may like it here.
#18
Old 04-09-2012, 09:27 PM
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Constantine if he's prepared.

(and I really liked the Dresden TV show. In a world where it seems impossible to make a urban-fantasy TV show so crappy that it doesn't get renewed for at least six seasons, I was kind of bitter the axed it so fast).
#19
Old 04-09-2012, 09:34 PM
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No kidding. We watched the first episode of Charmed on Netflix t'other night. If my wife had telekinesis we'd be shopping for a new TV now.

Last edited by Attack from the 3rd dimension; 04-09-2012 at 09:34 PM. Reason: makes more sense if all the pronouns agree
#20
Old 04-09-2012, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Bosstone View Post
Most of the Laws seem to extend only to humans, but judging by Storm Front the Fourth Law is one that extends to creatures of the Nevernever as well. Seems a little inconsistent to me, but.
I think that different laws exist for different reasons. The ones against time travel and "opening the Outer Gates" are based on the principle that breaking the timeline or dooming civilization is a Bad Thing. The law against killing humans is based on the problem that magically killing humans corrupts the wizard to do so by some kind of backlash; which is why it only applies to humans (and the function of the Blackstaff is that it negates the backlash, which is why McCoy can kill humans as needed without going psycho). The law against mind control also appears to be based on what it does to the caster, and because it apparently is innately harmful to the target. The law against coercion on the other hand appears to be ethical in nature as far as I can tell.
#21
Old 04-09-2012, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
The law against killing humans is based on the problem that magically killing humans corrupts the wizard to do so by some kind of backlash; which is why it only applies to humans (and the function of the Blackstaff is that it negates the backlash, which is why McCoy can kill humans as needed without going psycho).
I'm not convinced of that. Specifically, we know next to nothing about the Blackstaff; it was only in Changes that we had any evidence that the Blackstaff was a physical item, not a job title, and even that was pretty uninformative. The Blackstaff (referring to the item, not the person) may work in the way that you describe, but then again, it might not. It might be that the staff does nothing, and that McCoy simply bears the weight of the deaths he causes. We already know rather definitively that older wizards minds are less susceptible to magical warping; it might be that these older wizards can take the risk, or that McCoy's mind is being warped. There's simply not enough information to really be sure about the Blackstaff. For that matter, Harry sincerely believes that breaking the First, Third, and Fourth Laws bends and breaks the mind of the wizard who breaks the law, but there isn't a whole lot of actual evidence for this. Hell, Harry broke the First Law once for certain and very likely more than once. The hard data just isn't there.
#22
Old 04-10-2012, 06:20 AM
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I'm not convinced of that. Specifically, we know next to nothing about the Blackstaff; it was only in Changes that we had any evidence that the Blackstaff was a physical item, not a job title, and even that was pretty uninformative. The Blackstaff (referring to the item, not the person) may work in the way that you describe, but then again, it might not.
I understand that Jim Butcher has said that's what it does on his own forums.
#23
Old 04-10-2012, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
I understand that Jim Butcher has said that's what it does on his own forums.
Geez, I gotta get over there more often - or at all. Thanks for that info.

I reread Changes recently, and recall black lines starting to run up McCoy's staff hand (and arm) after he had killed a couple hundred mercenaries working for the Red Court. The lines receded with time, as I recall. Seems like it was an important detail now.
#24
Old 04-10-2012, 07:53 AM
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Wow. Fun thread!

I don't know much about Constantine except the movie but I know Dresden well.

It's my understanding that the laws of magic only apply to humans. Maybe mortals might be a better word? As such, we have seen Harry blast things from the Nevernever and there are no consequences for it. He's also blasted vampires and even had some collateral damage on that front with no consequences over the laws. It was argued as self defense, iirc.

I think Butcher has done an excellent job of showing Harry "grow into" magic and understand why the laws are there, especially when he teaches later in the series. And it's also shown to us why the laws are what they are. It's an excellent progression.

I enjoyed the TV series because it got my wife and I into the books! And we love the books! I still see Paul Blackthorne as Harry, Terrance Mann as Bob (at least the voice) and Valerie Cruz as Karrin, even though she's not a blonde. I thought they did well and would love to see it come back! But not on SyFy.

btw, to the poster that asked, apparently SciFi was re-branding itself as SyFy (ugh) at the time and so they completely messed with the production schedule and ended up making them do different introduction episodes with less magic "so viewers wouldn't be confused by all of the magic." No, I don't understand it. Nor do I understand why it didn't get more episodes, as it was still better than Charmed as it was!

*sigh*

vislor

Last edited by vislor; 04-10-2012 at 07:54 AM.
#25
Old 04-10-2012, 07:59 AM
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

From wikipedia:

Quote:
The Dresden Files was adapted to television in 2007 by the Sci-Fi Channel, and was canceled after one season. The stated reason was that the Dresden Files was the "biggest screen failure" of all time, despite being rated third in its time slot and outrating every episode of the popular Battlestar Galactica with its bottle episode, "Things That Go Bump".
#26
Old 04-10-2012, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Attack from the 3rd dimension View Post
Welcome to the Dope, Papa Midnight.

You'll notice that the thread in which you're posting has been lying dormant the last couple of years, so in the lingo of the boards, you've "resurrected a zombie thread". The fact that you've resurrected it with a post about zombies with a voodoo-esque name like Papa Midnight is excellent.
Not only that, but the name of a character from the first Hellblazer storyline. Excellent.

I would bet on Constantine winning but not without a lot of collateral damage.

And I liked the film once I stopped trying to connect it to the comic and got over my natural loathing of Keanu Reeves.
#27
Old 04-10-2012, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Face Intentionally Left Blank View Post
The Syfy version of Dresden had a pretty solid actor playing Harry, they did a great job with interpreting Bob(and had a good actor playing him), and that's about it. Nothing else about the series was appealing to me. I first saw an episode before I'd read the books, and I saw a couple episodes on Hulu or something after I'd read them all. Just utterly forgettable.

I like what I'm hearing about a Harry-John showdown so far. Harry would dominate in the first battle with John barely making an escape, John would pull out a surprise on their second meeting, then in the end, Harry will end up working towards John's goals. Or maybe they'll meet without magic flying, and they'll form a grudging alliance, working towards the same goals, but arguing how to go about it.

How would John fair from a 'obey the laws of magic' standpoint?
The series another redeeming characteristic...it made me seek out the books.
#28
Old 04-10-2012, 10:41 AM
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Not only that, but the name of a character from the first Hellblazer storyline. Excellent.

I would bet on Constantine winning but not without a lot of collateral damage.
John fights dirty. I think before the inevitable team up, he would either have the upper hand, or convince Harry that he (JC) has the upper hand. Remember, JC is very much the con-man.
Quote:
And I liked the film once I stopped trying to connect it to the comic and got over my natural loathing of Keanu Reeves.
The movie wasn't half bad, as its own entity. If you could just wrap your mind around the idea that John Constantine (rhymes with mean) is a different character then John Constantine (rhymes with wine), then you could enjoy the movie. If you try to reconcile the two characters, then you'll just make yourself angry, and eventually, Karen Berger will take out a restraining order on you, too.

Last edited by Maus Magill; 04-10-2012 at 10:42 AM. Reason: me spel gud.
#29
Old 04-10-2012, 10:55 AM
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John fights dirty. I think before the inevitable team up, he would either have the upper hand, or convince Harry that he (JC) has the upper hand. Remember, JC is very much the con-man.
True - I always think that the quintessential JC moment is that scene from The Books of Magic where he stops an entire room full of extremely nasty, extremely powerful beings from attacking Tim merely by striking a match and a pose, despite having virtually no powers at all. Perception is reality, and doubly so with him.
#30
Old 04-10-2012, 04:53 PM
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I understand that Jim Butcher has said that's what it does on his own forums.
Oh, well, that may be. I've never read those.
#31
Old 04-10-2012, 05:37 PM
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JC is pretty conniving, and poor Harry isn't very good vs conniving minds.

However, Harry is tough enough to take just about anything being dished out on him while he laboriously works to finally connects the dots, at which point he'd start holding his own without much trouble. I doubt he'd do much retaliatory damage to JC however, because if the OPs premise holds true, Harry and JC would be working together by that point, and dear Harry doesn't go in for gratuitous vengeance on people he has tagged with the "good guy" label, even if it takes a while for them to get there.

However, if it's more of a Dresden/Marcone style alliance? I think Harry wouldn't mind dishing out some payback, and then poor JC would be all beat to hell. Harry is a damn sight heavier hitter than he was when this thread started.

Not that I'm biased or anything.
#32
Old 06-07-2014, 11:30 PM
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NEW 52 Constantine is a lot more magic-y than his Hellblazer incarnation. Never read the Dresden Files but 52 Constantine is quite a powerful magician
#33
Old 06-08-2014, 01:50 AM
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What's interesting is that we may be soon discussing the TV version of Constantine vs the TV version of Dresden - not the low-budget, SyFy version, but a newer TV version of the Dresden Files. Butcher says talks are in progress, though nothing will be certain until he cashes the check. I'd link to it, but he dropped this during one of his fairly recent book-readings/signings, and it's on Youtube somewhere. It could take awhile for me to find again. If I find it again, I'll post back.
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