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#1
Old 10-29-2010, 08:56 AM
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Is there a British equivalent to the American Independence Day?

Here in the Colonies, we have the Fourth of July, aka Independence Day. We celebrate with fireworks, cookouts, readings of the Declaration of Independence, and so forth. The point of the holiday is to remember the signing of the Declaration of Independence and American independence.

Does the UK have an equivalent holiday? I thought of Guy Fawkes Day, but that's not quite the same.
#2
Old 10-29-2010, 09:11 AM
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Guy Fawkes Night (or Bonfire Night) is equivalent in the sense that you get bonfires and fireworks, but not in the historical sense. There is no holiday celebrating, say, the signing of the Magna Carta. The closest you'll probably get is Burns Night in Scotland, which is not an official holiday.
#3
Old 10-29-2010, 09:19 AM
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And even then Burns Night is a celebration of a cultural icon - something along the lines of if the US having Twain Nights.

Last edited by Grey; 10-29-2010 at 09:20 AM.
#4
Old 10-29-2010, 09:22 AM
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In the Commonwealth countries you have (or had) Dominion Day, which is probably as good an analog as you are going to get. Canada calls it "Canada Day" instead of "Dominion Day" now. I'm not sure what's done now - when I was a kid Canada had fireworks on July 1.
#5
Old 10-29-2010, 09:23 AM
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Guy Fawkes Day is sort of the love child of the American Hallowe'en and Fourth of July -- combining bonfires, fireworks, and kids going door to door for handouts. It commemorates the thwarting of the Gunpowder Plot, which was an attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament in aid of the supposed divine right of Catholic monarch James II.
#6
Old 10-29-2010, 09:47 AM
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If there were fireworks and celebrations and whatnot for the execution of Charles I, that would be the closest hypothetical equivalent.
#7
Old 10-29-2010, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Olentzero View Post
If there were fireworks and celebrations and whatnot for the execution of Charles I, that would be the closest hypothetical equivalent.
Wouldn't the closest equivalent be fireworks and celebrations for the execution or imprisonment of the regicides 20 years later?
#8
Old 10-29-2010, 10:18 AM
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Or the Glorious Revolution of 1688/89. James II kicked out by Parliament, Parliament installs tame monarch, and Britain becomes a constitutional monarchy.
#9
Old 10-29-2010, 10:34 AM
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William III of Orange was anything but "tame" - but he came from the Netherlands, which already had a very limited monarchy (in that he wasn't actually a monarch), and basically ruled the UK the same way.
#10
Old 10-29-2010, 10:54 AM
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Well, we went from a guy who considered himself absolute ruler by divine right, to William, who immediately allowed the Bill of Rights to be enacted, which ceded a large chunk of sovereignty to Parliament.
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Old 10-29-2010, 11:23 AM
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So you could, conceivably, have Bill's Bill Day? (And then, later, the bill for Bill's Bill Day.)
#12
Old 10-29-2010, 11:29 AM
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There's always Easter, where we celebrate the liberation of chocolate eggs from a bunny, by eating lots of chocolate eggs.
#13
Old 10-29-2010, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Ximenean View Post
Well, we went from a guy who considered himself absolute ruler by divine right, to William, who immediately allowed the Bill of Rights to be enacted, which ceded a large chunk of sovereignty to Parliament.
That's true - but Will had a very dominent personality, and was no puppet. He just preferred to spend his time fighting Louis XIV and his allies, and let Britain more or less rule itself.
#14
Old 10-29-2010, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Polycarp View Post
Guy Fawkes Day is sort of the love child of the American Hallowe'en and Fourth of July -- combining bonfires, fireworks, and kids going door to door for handouts. It commemorates the thwarting of the Gunpowder Plot, which was an attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament in aid of the supposed divine right of Catholic monarch James II.
Except that it came before both of those celebrations. Kids do not go door-to-door for handouts. When they make a Guy and call 'penny for the Guy' it's from a spot outside, not door-to-door, and it doesn't really happen much any more anyway, sadly.

Guy Fawkes' Night is more an ancestor of Wicker Man burnings than anything else. (Some Wicker Man burnings do still happen, mainly in the South-West).

I don't think it's very similar to Independence Day, since it commemorates parliament beating rebels and staying the same rather than an overthrow of a government.

The closest would be the saints' days in the various UK countries - they're not celebrations of independence, but they are about all the good facets of being Scottish/etc. St George's Day is in a slow process of being melded with or possibly usurped by Shakespeare's birthday celebrations.
#15
Old 10-29-2010, 12:44 PM
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The trouble with Guy Fawkes' Day is that there's a pretty heavy anti-Catholic component to that, which probably wouldn't fly in today's multi-cultural Britain.

The closest equivalent I was going to suggest is the Queen's Official Birthday, which bears no relation to the Queen's actual birthday and, like the 4th of July, is essentially an arbitrary date that is celebrated because it comes during a part of the year that has good weather.

Last edited by GreasyJack; 10-29-2010 at 12:44 PM. Reason: sp
#16
Old 10-29-2010, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by GreasyJack View Post
The trouble with Guy Fawkes' Day is that there's a pretty heavy anti-Catholic component to that, which probably wouldn't fly in today's multi-cultural Britain.

The closest equivalent I was going to suggest is the Queen's Official Birthday, which bears no relation to the Queen's actual birthday and, like the 4th of July, is essentially an arbitrary date that is celebrated because it comes during a part of the year that has good weather.
There is in its inception, but there isn't in the way it's run now. It's an extremely popular event, even in multicultural Britain.

The Queen's official birthday is a pretty good contender, with the problem being that nobody except the Queen and a few tourists (and civil servants who get the day off) celebrates it.

ETA: it's Night, not Day (several of you have said Day). It's also known as simply Bonfire Night or occasionally Fireworks Night.

Last edited by SciFiSam; 10-29-2010 at 01:14 PM.
#17
Old 10-29-2010, 01:19 PM
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This non-Protestant (also non-Catholic) Briton happily celebrated Guy Fawkes' Night as a boy. There really isn't an anti-Catholic component to it at all, except in the same sense that Hallowe'en has a pro-pagan component.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polycarp View Post
Guy Fawkes Day is sort of the love child of the American Hallowe'en and Fourth of July -- combining bonfires, fireworks, and kids going door to door for handouts. It commemorates the thwarting of the Gunpowder Plot, which was an attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament in aid of the supposed divine right of Catholic monarch James II.
Close. It was an attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament in aid of ending the reign of anti-Catholic James I. Had it succeeded, the plan was for his Catholic daughter Elizabeth (from whom the Hanoverian dynasty sprang) to take the throne.

Last edited by Really Not All That Bright; 10-29-2010 at 01:20 PM.
#18
Old 10-29-2010, 01:27 PM
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Interestingly New Zealand celebrates Guy Fawkes while many in Australia have never heard if it.
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Old 10-29-2010, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by scifisam2009 View Post
Except that it came before both of those celebrations.
True. I didn't mean the comment to suggest derivation so much as "It's like a cross between...."

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I don't think it's very similar to Independence Day, since it commemorates parliament beating rebels and staying the same rather than an overthrow of a government.
You get a "yahbut" on this one -- Both days celebrate a triumph of representative government over a perceived threat of royal tyranny. In the case of the Gunpowder Plot, the perception was in error one way -- Catholic absolutism vs. Protestant democracy was how it was then conceived. And America believed that George III and his tame PM Lord North were out to run America as they wished whether we agreed or not. The ins and outs of contemporary English politics escaped us Colonials -- we saw it as the Tyranny of King George.
#20
Old 10-29-2010, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by MsRobyn View Post
The point of the holiday is to remember the signing of the Declaration of Independence and American independence.
We don't teach it well because we remember it wrong. Actual independence from Great Britain occurred two days earlier on July 2nd, with the Continental Congress approving Richard Henry Lee's resolution for independence. It would later be incorporated in the DOI and the whole shebang approved on the Fourth. The public didn't hear about it until July 8th when the DOI was read in the garden behind the Pennsylvania State House.

But that parchment we all think was signed on the Fourth didn't exist. It would not be until August 2nd when the engrossed copy was ready for signing. Still, it took almost a decade for all the signers to sign it.

Last edited by Duckster; 10-29-2010 at 01:38 PM.
#21
Old 10-29-2010, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by GreasyJack View Post
The closest equivalent I was going to suggest is the Queen's Official Birthday, which bears no relation to the Queen's actual birthday and, like the 4th of July, is essentially an arbitrary date that is celebrated because it comes during a part of the year that has good weather.
I don't know if you mean exactly what you say there, but the 4th of July is hardly an arbitrary date. It's true that the resolution of independence was voted on the 2nd, but the Declaration of Independence which explained this decision was adopted on July 4th. Notably John Adams in a letter to his wife dated July 3 said July 2nd would be celebrated in years to come, but we have historically celebrated the 4th instead.

There has been a long debate about whether the document was actually signed on July 4th or in August (even though Adams, Jefferson and Franklin all wrote that they did sign on the 4th though they would have had to sign the officially printed document later again). But regardless, that date does appear in the Declaration itself, and with no instant communication in those days, that's the date we've stuck with.

Last edited by OldGuy; 10-29-2010 at 01:46 PM.
#22
Old 10-29-2010, 01:49 PM
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So you could, conceivably, have Bill's Bill Day? (And then, later, the bill for Bill's Bill Day.)
Bill's day? We have that in Northern Ireland every July. And yes, we have a bill for Bill's day, a fairly hefty one once the rubbish is swept up, roads repaved, houses repaired, green areas resown etc etc
#23
Old 10-29-2010, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by OldGuy View Post
I don't know if you mean exactly what you say there, but the 4th of July is hardly an arbitrary date. It's true that the resolution of independence was voted on the 2nd, but the Declaration of Independence which explained this decision was adopted on July 4th. Notably John Adams in a letter to his wife dated July 3 said July 2nd would be celebrated in years to come, but we have historically celebrated the 4th instead.

There has been a long debate about whether the document was actually signed on July 4th or in August (even though Adams, Jefferson and Franklin all wrote that they did sign on the 4th though they would have had to sign the officially printed document later again). But regardless, that date does appear in the Declaration itself, and with no instant communication in those days, that's the date we've stuck with.
More what I was meaning is the fact that we've decided that date is the holiest of holy days in our patriotic calendar as opposed to others. Not that commemorating the Declaration of Independence would have been unimportant, but I'm not sure it would have been the event we celebrate if it had been, say, in January.
#24
Old 10-29-2010, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Polycarp View Post
...The ins and outs of contemporary English politics escaped us Colonials -- we saw it as the Tyranny of King George.
Actually, before the Continental Congress approved the Declaration of Independence (most of which was a litany of complaints about His Majesty), many American patriots saw Parliament as the bad guys, and wanted the King to step in to protect the colonists' rights as "Englishmen." They didn't understand, or tactically chose to ignore the fact, that George III was himself guiding British policy, and fully supported a hardnosed policy towards his recalcitrant American subjects.

See: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Olive_Branch_Petition
#25
Old 10-29-2010, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by GreasyJack View Post
The trouble with Guy Fawkes' Day is that there's a pretty heavy anti-Catholic component to that, which probably wouldn't fly in today's multi-cultural Britain.
This is completely wrong. It's about building big bonfires and letting off many explosives, there's scarce one in a hundred who even cares about the origin of the thing. It coincides with Diwali this year too, and it's a Friday, so bring it.
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Old 10-29-2010, 04:43 PM
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This is completely wrong. It's about building big bonfires and letting off many explosives, there's scarce one in a hundred who even cares about the origin of the thing. It coincides with Diwali this year too, and it's a Friday, so bring it.
Yeah, I suppose if you if you drop the pope-burning (or or exploding!) it's just good clean inclusive fun.
#27
Old 10-29-2010, 04:54 PM
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You know, I never realized until now how much simpler things would be if we stopped worrying about context.
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Old 10-29-2010, 05:41 PM
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You mean the "August Bank Holiday" wouldn't count?


For those who don't know, it's a public holiday that has no historic cause or connection, they just thought they needed one.
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Old 10-29-2010, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by GreasyJack View Post
The trouble with Guy Fawkes' Day is that there's a pretty heavy anti-Catholic component to that, which probably wouldn't fly in today's multi-cultural Britain.
Um, I guess you've never heard of the way Lewes in East Sussex celebrates Bonfire night? They have bonfire societies which dress in costumes, march through the streets carrying anti pope slogans and construct huge effigies of the pope that are burned. This still goes on, 100,000 or more people from surrounding areas turn up to watch. See images here:
http://google.com.au/images?clie...w=1440&bih=786

Lewes is where 17 protestants where executed in 1555... and they don't seem to have forgotten it

There was also anti-pope protests in London just now in September when he visited...
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news...919-15hgg.html

So what I'm saying is, protesting against the pope is perfectly acceptable in the UK, "Political correctness" is not such a big issues as it is in the US.
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Old 10-29-2010, 06:06 PM
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Well, GreasyJack's later link was actually to footage of the (in)famous Lewes Bonfire Night. I think most people do file it under "just a bit of tongue-in-cheek fun", but OTOH they do seem to take it just a leetle bit too seriously down in Lewes.

And just to clear things up (I'm not suggesting that you implied this) - the anti-Pope demos in London recently were not a Protestant vs. Catholic sectarian thing. I can imagine such protests taking place in the US too.

Last edited by Ximenean; 10-29-2010 at 06:10 PM.
#31
Old 10-29-2010, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Ximenean View Post
Well, GreasyJack's later link was actually to footage of the (in)famous Lewes Bonfire Night. I think most people do file it under "just a bit of tongue-in-cheek fun", but OTOH they do seem to take it just a leetle bit too seriously down in Lewes..
Having lived in Lewes for a year and after reading about the full history of attempted Catholic interference in the UK's government throughout the centuries I'd argue that the rest of the UK doesn't take it seriously enough
#32
Old 10-29-2010, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by GreasyJack View Post
More what I was meaning is the fact that we've decided that date is the holiest of holy days in our patriotic calendar as opposed to others. Not that commemorating the Declaration of Independence would have been unimportant, but I'm not sure it would have been the event we celebrate if it had been, say, in January.
Maybe not, but speaking of arbitrary dates, Christmas was arbitrarily picked to occur on that date (perhaps because there already was a Roman holiday then celebrating the Winter Solstice and a rebirth of the sun -- not that the pun is applicable in Latin) and it seems to have done pretty well for itself.

We probably wouldn't be having picnics then but if it had been January 4th, say, I would imagine our holiday season would just be a week longer.

If it had been Feb 2nd, then I guess we'd keep waking up and having to repeat the celebration over and over.

Last edited by OldGuy; 10-29-2010 at 11:49 PM.
#33
Old 10-30-2010, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by coremelt View Post
Um, I guess you've never heard of the way Lewes in East Sussex celebrates Bonfire night? They have bonfire societies which dress in costumes, march through the streets carrying anti pope slogans and construct huge effigies of the pope that are burned. This still goes on, 100,000 or more people from surrounding areas turn up to watch. See images here:
http://google.com.au/images?clie...w=1440&bih=786

Lewes is where 17 protestants where executed in 1555... and they don't seem to have forgotten it

There was also anti-pope protests in London just now in September when he visited...
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news...919-15hgg.html

So what I'm saying is, protesting against the pope is perfectly acceptable in the UK, "Political correctness" is not such a big issues as it is in the US.
Oh yes, I'm quite aware of them. I'd love to see them some time!

Guy Fawkes' day/night/etc seems quite comparable to 4th of July in terms of it being a grand old time and an important part of the country's tradition (maybe I came off as disapproving, which was not my intention at all!), but I'm not quite so sure it's the solemn state occasion we fancy the 4th of July to be over here. I think a large part of it is that it is so sectarian in origin, which is sort of contrary to how modern Britain imagines itself to be. Obviously people still celebrate it, but to me as an outsider it looks almost like a subversive reaction to how the modern state of Britain likes to think of itself. Whereas the 4th is pretty much as conformist and officially-sanctioned as you can get.

I dunno, maybe the 4th will be like Guy Fawkes' night if we ever get around to developing a modern inclusive culture.

Last edited by GreasyJack; 10-30-2010 at 12:39 AM.
#34
Old 10-30-2010, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by GreasyJack View Post
Oh yes, I'm quite aware of them. I'd love to see them some time!

Guy Fawkes' day/night/etc seems quite comparable to 4th of July in terms of it being a grand old time and an important part of the country's tradition (maybe I came off as disapproving, which was not my intention at all!), but I'm not quite so sure it's the solemn state occasion we fancy the 4th of July to be over here. I think a large part of it is that it is so sectarian in origin, which is sort of contrary to how modern Britain imagines itself to be. Obviously people still celebrate it, but to me as an outsider it looks almost like a subversive reaction to how the modern state of Britain likes to think of itself. Whereas the 4th is pretty much as conformist and officially-sanctioned as you can get.

I dunno, maybe the 4th will be like Guy Fawkes' night if we ever get around to developing a modern inclusive culture.
I think you are over-thinking things. In almost all of the country November 5th is nowt more than excuse to set off fireworks and burn things. Anything.
#35
Old 10-30-2010, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by GreasyJack View Post
but I'm not quite so sure it's the solemn state occasion we fancy the 4th of July to be over here.
Solemn state occasion? I suppose there are such, but the vast majority of Americans celebrate the 4th of July by 1) having a barbeque, 2) setting off explosives, and 3) attending the local fireworks display or watching the Boston Pops on tv. Nothing solemn about any of these.

Personally, I think Britain should celebrate Mafeking Day, if only because of the jokes/puns you can make with the name (although I suppose Guy Fawkes is good for that, too).
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#36
Old 10-30-2010, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Polycarp View Post
You get a "yahbut" on this one -- Both days celebrate a triumph of representative government over a perceived threat of royal tyranny. In the case of the Gunpowder Plot, the perception was in error one way -- Catholic absolutism vs. Protestant democracy was how it was then conceived. And America believed that George III and his tame PM Lord North were out to run America as they wished whether we agreed or not. The ins and outs of contemporary English politics escaped us Colonials -- we saw it as the Tyranny of King George.
That's true. I still don't think it's anything like an Independence Day, but I can see why it was suggested.

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Originally Posted by coremelt View Post
Um, I guess you've never heard of the way Lewes in East Sussex celebrates Bonfire night? They have bonfire societies which dress in costumes, march through the streets carrying anti pope slogans and construct huge effigies of the pope that are burned. This still goes on, 100,000 or more people from surrounding areas turn up to watch. See images here:
http://google.com.au/images?clie...w=1440&bih=786

Lewes is where 17 protestants where executed in 1555... and they don't seem to have forgotten it

There was also anti-pope protests in London just now in September when he visited...
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news...919-15hgg.html

So what I'm saying is, protesting against the pope is perfectly acceptable in the UK, "Political correctness" is not such a big issues as it is in the US.
Yes, but Lewes is crazy. I love that the Lewes Bonfire Council urges visitors not to come. I'd be extremely surprised if it was ever as much as 100,000 people - there simply isn't the pavement space for anywhere near that number in the small village of Lewes.

They also burn politicians, celebrities and parking wardens.

Everywhere else, there's not the slightest bit of anti-Pope sentiment to Guy Fawkes'. There's also no connection to the protests against the recent Pope's visit, which were about him and his entourage being utter bastards and the visit costing us lots of money, not really anything to do with his religion per se.
#37
Old 10-30-2010, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Pearse View Post
Interestingly New Zealand celebrates Guy Fawkes while many in Australia have never heard if it.
That was a real shock when I moved here; after all, I figured Australians would definitely be up for a celebration which involves playing with explosives letting off rockets and roman candles in celebratory memory of someone who tried to blow up Parliament a long time ago, with bonus points for it being the English Parliament a long time ago.

But no, very few people I spoke to had ever heard of it and many said it sounded like a Very Silly Idea, not least of which was because of the risk of bushfires (which is a valid point, I will concede.)

Last edited by Martini Enfield; 10-30-2010 at 07:22 AM.
#38
Old 10-30-2010, 07:33 AM
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We used to have Guy Fawkes Night when I was really, really young (I was born in 1976), but I guess it tapered off after the sale of fireworks was prohibited.

Wikipedia backs that up:
Quote:
In Australia, Guy Fawkes Night has not been celebrated since the late 1970s, when to prevent misuse and personal injuries the sale and public use of fireworks was banned in most states and territories. Before this ban, Guy Fawkes Night in Australia was celebrated in private, backyard fireworks lightings and occasionally with larger communal bonfires or fireworks displays in public spaces. Some recent immigrants to Australia from Britain preserve the British tradition and arrange private parties with bonfires and sparklers.
#39
Old 10-30-2010, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by C K Dexter Haven View Post
You mean the "August Bank Holiday" wouldn't count?


For those who don't know, it's a public holiday that has no historic cause or connection, they just thought they needed one.
I envision a Pratchettesque character named August Bank, who was "famous for being famous", and whose birthday is "celebrated in the appropriate way," what is appropriate being up to the individual.
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Old 10-30-2010, 08:57 AM
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August Bank has a couple of sisters, Spring and the other one. Not sure what her name is. Early May?
#41
Old 10-30-2010, 11:39 AM
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In the Commonwealth countries you have (or had) Dominion Day, which is probably as good an analog as you are going to get. Canada calls it "Canada Day" instead of "Dominion Day" now. I'm not sure what's done now - when I was a kid Canada had fireworks on July 1.
Yeah, we do fireworks and barbecues and getting drunk and so forth (though obviously somewhat less in my neck of the woods -- anyway we're usually barbecued out from St. Jean Baptiste the week before, and busy moving on top of it all).

In Ottawa they have a huge and very popular fireworks display/concert on Parliament Hill. (The Queen came this year.) They always used to do fireworks back when I lived in Winnipeg, as well.
#42
Old 10-30-2010, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by yabob View Post
In the Commonwealth countries you have (or had) Dominion Day, which is probably as good an analog as you are going to get. Canada calls it "Canada Day" instead of "Dominion Day" now. I'm not sure what's done now - when I was a kid Canada had fireworks on July 1.
I live in a seaside village just below the Canadian border. Many Canadians own property here. The Canadians celebrate Canada Day the same way we celebrate the 4th of July. Fireworks (which are legal and quasi-legal here), alcohol, barbecue (well, grilling), and frolicking in the bay. Between the Canadians and the Americans, it sounds like a war zone up here for several days.
#43
Old 10-30-2010, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by scifisam2009 View Post
Yes, but Lewes is crazy. I love that the Lewes Bonfire Council urges visitors not to come. I'd be extremely surprised if it was ever as much as 100,000 people - there simply isn't the pavement space for anywhere near that number in the small village of Lewes.
Everywhere else, there's not the slightest bit of anti-Pope sentiment to Guy Fawkes'.
Like I said I lived in Lewes for a year, I attended the 2008 bonfire celebrations... don't know how many it was but every single street was packed with people. Lewes is not THAT small, you can pack a lot of people in 1 square kiliometer or so.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...,0.022724&z=16

The anti-pope aspet is not just in Lewes, other small towns in East Sussex have bonfire societies and burn pope effigies, Lewes just has the biggest one. Here's the full list:
http://bonfirenight.info/sussexbonfiresociety.php
#44
Old 10-30-2010, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by scifisam2009 View Post
... the protests against the recent Pope's visit, which were about him and his entourage being utter bastards....
How so?
#45
Old 10-31-2010, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir View Post
How so?
Protection of paedophile priests, position on homosexuality, position on condoms in AIDS-ravaged Africa ...

But mainly the paedophile priests thing. He was a major player in that before he became Pope.
#46
Old 10-31-2010, 06:54 AM
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To be fair, Cardinal Ratzinger as he was then was one of the principal figures in the investigation of sexual abuse by priests.
#47
Old 10-31-2010, 08:57 AM
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@Coremelt: yeah, I'm sure it was a lot of people, but 100,000? The population of the town is only 15,988. Obviously, there are lots of visitors, but there's still a question of space for them to go.

OK, so there's an anti-Pope aspect to a couple of villages' celebrations near Lewes' too. I don't think that proves that there's widespread ant-Catholicism to Guy Fawkes' Night, which seems to be what you're claiming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir View Post
How so?
FAR too many reasons to go into on this thread. I'm surprised it's news to you that many people think Pope Benedict is vile.

Last edited by SciFiSam; 10-31-2010 at 08:59 AM. Reason: Linkage.
#48
Old 10-31-2010, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximenean View Post
To be fair, Cardinal Ratzinger as he was then was one of the principal figures in the investigation of sexual abuse by priests.
Or non-investigation. Or sweeping under the carpet. That's the point.
#49
Old 10-31-2010, 10:20 AM
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Actually, I guess it doesn't really matter whether the attendees are 30,000 or 100,000 - it's a lot of people either way; Bonfire Night celebrations tend to be popular, and an unusual one even moreso. It still doesn't indicate any actual anti-Catholicism even in Lewes. (Note that it's not only the Pope who gets burnt).
#50
Old 10-31-2010, 04:56 PM
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Read the info page here:
"Lewes Bonfire Celebrations is about freedom of speech, remembrance and No Popery ."
http://bonfirenight.info/whyattackreligion.php
Anti-Popery is not technically the same as anti-catholic.

" In fact, Popery is not a religion at all ; and it is a sad delusion to suppose, that a mere difference of creed is all that exists between Protestants and Papists. Popery is a political conspiracy to subjugate empires, kingdoms, thrones, and states, to one tyrant, "who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" (2 Thess. ii. 4).
Rev. Joseph Irons, Grove Chapel, Camberwell, London, 5th November 1837.

The Lewes night features marches by all the east sussex bonfire societies, not just the one from Lewes and several of them feature "No Popery", burning signs.

Guy Fawkes night in it's original form with the anti-popery as kept alive in East Sussex and especially Lewes is the direct equivalent of 4th july, because it's celebrating the UK's independence from the popes meddling in UK line of succession.

Remember in Catholic countries the Pope was more powerful than kings and indeed in many cases choose the king or queen of countries to suit their own political needs.

Last edited by coremelt; 10-31-2010 at 04:59 PM.
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