Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
#1
Old 10-31-2010, 11:33 PM
Charter Member
Join Date: Mar 1999
Posts: 19,294
Should I go to bartending school?

It's $150 for a week of classes with a Groupon. They have live instructors, no videos, and say you will be comfortable mixing 100 drinks by the end of it. I've always thought the idea of being a bartender would be interesting. I've been a cocktail waitress and enjoyed working in the bar scene.

Anyone have any experience/tips?
#2
Old 11-01-2010, 12:25 AM
Charter Member
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Eastern Kentucky
Posts: 6,471
I looked into this in my undergrad days, and the general consensus was no. Restaurant managers don't care if you've been to bartending school; they'd much rather see that you've had experience. I talked to people who had been to the one I wanted to go to, and they said the classes were about 60% basic stuff that anyone who wants to go to bartending school would know, 30% lists of drinks that no one will ever order, and 10% useful information. They also said that the promised "job placement services" involved someone helping you go through the classifieds. Everyone said I'd be better off just reading a few bartending books and doing a few shifts as a barback, or bartending somewhere that isn't busy.

Of course, that was a long time ago, it was one particular school, and it was WAY more expensive. For $150 I'd probably go for it.

(Best bartending advice I ever got: bartending is mostly cleaning.)
#3
Old 11-01-2010, 01:30 AM
Guest
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: DC
Posts: 19,401
If you want to have fun and show off a bit when making drinks for your friends, go for it.

But I don't think it's at all relavent to getting a job as a bartender. The only way to do that is to make friends with a bar owner or work for a bit as a barback.
#4
Old 11-01-2010, 01:49 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Simon's Island, GA
Posts: 6,783
I was a bartender from 2002 - 2008, and friends with most of the other bartenders in the area. Not a single one of us ever took a bartending class.
#5
Old 11-01-2010, 03:23 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Chi NYC Berlin LA Vegas
Posts: 13,728
Overheard in my classroom a guy asking the same question just last week.
Several students who work/worked in bars said the same thing - nobody cares.
One guy said, "I have worked as a bartender for 10 years and have only met three people who went to bartending schools and were working."
#6
Old 11-01-2010, 07:55 AM
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 6,436
$150 is the cheapest bartending school I've ever heard of.
#7
Old 11-01-2010, 09:53 AM
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: At long last, home
Posts: 11,043
Quote:
Originally Posted by even sven View Post
The only way to do that is to make friends with a bar owner or work for a bit as a barback.
Correct. Bartending school is asinine.
#8
Old 11-01-2010, 10:26 AM
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 38,384
$150 might be worth it just for the fun.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
#9
Old 11-01-2010, 10:32 AM
Charter Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Riding my handcycle
Posts: 31,916
At that price and length, it sounds like a class aimed at a home bartender not a vocational school.
#10
Old 11-01-2010, 10:38 AM
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 5,989
The only bartender I know personally did go to a bartending schoool near me, and he seems to be pretty good at his job. I don't believe he needed the school, though - the fellow's a huge booze nerd.
#11
Old 11-01-2010, 11:04 AM
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Posts: 26,853
A friend of mine has a bar, so I asked him this question. He has never hired a graduate of bartending school. He says that, "how their tits look in a tight shirt, or how their cleavage looks in a plunging neckline" is the most important factor.

Thinking about his bar, I realize he was being honest.
#12
Old 11-01-2010, 11:33 AM
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Riverside, CA
Posts: 12,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorJ View Post
I looked into this in my undergrad days, and the general consensus was no. Restaurant managers don't care if you've been to bartending school; they'd much rather see that you've had experience.
And that you're hot.

Seriously, one of the most important hiring criteria for a bartender (especially female bartenders) is being attractive and personable. Anyone can learn to mix a drink.
#13
Old 11-01-2010, 11:35 AM
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,363
I went back in the day. $450 as I recall. 4 weeks.
You want a sloe comfortable screw, up against the wall, doggie style, with a twist, I was your guy.

I started at a place called Houston's, a mid-scale yuppie hang-out where they loved off the wall drinks. Then a TGI Friday's. More fun, more action, and I didn't have to have a starched Polo shirt every shift.

Best place? A dump of a strip club in Midtown Atlanta.
Handed out beer, and the occasional gin & tonic.

Best perks of any job, evar.
#14
Old 11-01-2010, 01:30 PM
Charter Member
Join Date: Mar 1999
Posts: 19,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by appleciders View Post
$150 is the cheapest bartending school I've ever heard of.
It's a Groupon--70% off.
#15
Old 11-01-2010, 02:06 PM
Charter Member
Join Date: Mar 1999
Posts: 19,294
I look pretty good in a plunging neckline too, I think. I have worked as a cocktail waitress at a strip club (and a dancer, back in the day [topless only]).

I think even if I never get a job bartending that it would be fun to know how to make more drinks.
#16
Old 11-01-2010, 02:13 PM
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: At long last, home
Posts: 11,043
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpalCat View Post
I think even if I never get a job bartending that it would be fun to know how to make more drinks.
http://droogle.ca/
#17
Old 11-01-2010, 02:15 PM
Member
Join Date: May 2000
Location: True Blue Virginia
Posts: 7,622
The only time I ever saw people get jobs because they went to bartender school was at the corporate type places - chains like Fridays or hotels. I would rather have gouged my eyes out with a lemon zester than work at one of those.

The people I know who have graduated from them know how to mix a drink but don't know how to bartend. And you can always teach someone who knows how to bartend to mix a drink, but you often can't teach a drinks mixer how to be a bartender.
#18
Old 11-01-2010, 02:49 PM
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
$150 might be worth it just for the fun.
I was thinking the same thing. There's a place near where I live that charges $700 for a two week course.
Anyway I'd think the hardest thing about being a bartender would be knowing how to manage a big crowd ordering mixed drinks on a Friday night. As some other people here have mentioned, mixing drinks really isn't that difficult so long as you have a knack for measuring proportions. And while having a good head for drink recipes is important, from my own personal observations it seems that 90 percent of bar patrons who get mixed drinks are ordering one of only about a dozen or so tried and true concoctions - screwdrivers, white Russians, gin and tonics, etc. with an occasional trendy drink like a mojito thrown in.

Last edited by joebuck20; 11-01-2010 at 02:51 PM.
#19
Old 11-01-2010, 05:55 PM
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 508
Geez, why don't we get good Groupons here? All I ever see are ads with things that look like white, purple and green hamburgers.

For that cheap, I'd go for it. I considered Bar School way back in the past,and sometimes wish I had gone, just because.
#20
Old 11-01-2010, 06:53 PM
BANNED
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Antioch
Posts: 11,459
I hang out at bars a lot. Good looking young women get the best bartending jobs once they can keep up with the pace. Until then they have what are traditionally slow shifts. Remember that the prep work involves shape knives and you can get cut, and there will be broken glass.
#21
Old 11-01-2010, 06:59 PM
Charter Member
Charter Member
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Irvine, California, USA
Posts: 14,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorJ View Post
30% lists of drinks that no one will ever order
Such as? I wouldn't mind being one of those guys that they have to bring the dusty bottles out for.
#22
Old 11-02-2010, 03:41 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Simon's Island, GA
Posts: 6,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Winkelried View Post
Such as? I wouldn't mind being one of those guys that they have to bring the dusty bottles out for.
Order a "cement mixer"
#23
Old 11-02-2010, 03:44 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Simon's Island, GA
Posts: 6,783
Nah, that's too evil. I can't do that to you.
#24
Old 11-02-2010, 04:12 AM
Guest
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 829
For $150 as a lark, go for it. If you decide to pursue bartending as a living or as supplemental income, I shit you not: Do Not Ever Tell Anyone that you went to bartending school.

Trust me, just don't do it. It is not an asset, it's a liability. People will fuck with you and hold it against you for admitting it, if you even manage to get hired. Do not do it. Not ever. Not even if you get asked if you have any formal training on an interview.

Tell them you worked for a caterer and sometimes worked the bar for weddings. Tell them your ex-brother in law owned a bar and you sometimes filled in on weeknights. Tell them anything other than "I went to bartending school." I swear to god, just don't.
#25
Old 11-02-2010, 04:16 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 14,275
None of the bars near me will serve cement mixers any more. Turns out there is a limit to just how much puke they're willing to clean up. I once stumped a bartender by asking for a sloe gin fizz. Frankly, I don't think that should happen.
#26
Old 11-02-2010, 04:44 AM
Guest
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inner Stickler View Post
None of the bars near me will serve cement mixers any more. Turns out there is a limit to just how much puke they're willing to clean up. I once stumped a bartender by asking for a sloe gin fizz. Frankly, I don't think that should happen.
Yeah, but who the fuck orders a sloe gin anything? You were just fucking with the bartender. 90% of orders will be for bottles/pints of beer or two ingredient drinks like rum & coke, gin & tonic or vodka & anything. Depending on the bar, wine is another 5% For the rare patron who stumped me on an obscure cocktail, I had this:

"Teach me how to make one and it's on the house."

A bit of humility and a free drink goes a long way. Mixing drinks is a small part of the job. Making patrons your friend goes a lot farther than any "mixology" school lessons.
#27
Old 11-02-2010, 07:37 AM
Charter Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 5,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inner Stickler View Post
None of the bars near me will serve cement mixers any more. Turns out there is a limit to just how much puke they're willing to clean up. I once stumped a bartender by asking for a sloe gin fizz. Frankly, I don't think that should happen.
Maybe I need to dust off that "What drinks are you surprised bartenders don't know" thread from my massive list of threads I haven't bothered starting yet.
#28
Old 11-02-2010, 10:37 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 14,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake Jones View Post
Yeah, but who the fuck orders a sloe gin anything? You were just fucking with the bartender.
ME! I DO! I like sloe gin and I like sloe gin fizzes! Frankly I don't think it's obscure at all. Somehow, I feel that if you can make a california cocaine, you should be able to make a sloe gin fizz.
#29
Old 11-02-2010, 11:02 AM
Member
Join Date: May 2000
Location: True Blue Virginia
Posts: 7,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake Jones View Post
Yeah, but who the fuck orders a sloe gin anything? You were just fucking with the bartender. 90% of orders will be for bottles/pints of beer or two ingredient drinks like rum & coke, gin & tonic or vodka & anything. Depending on the bar, wine is another 5% For the rare patron who stumped me on an obscure cocktail, I had this:

"Teach me how to make one and it's on the house."

A bit of humility and a free drink goes a long way. Mixing drinks is a small part of the job. Making patrons your friend goes a lot farther than any "mixology" school lessons.
Amen. And a copy of the Bartender's Bible, which every bar I have worked in has already.

If you don't know it, ask the person what is in it. If they don't know, they shouldn't be drinking it. If they still want it, ask them what color it is - that tells you a lot about the drink.

And finally, if it is a really stupid named drink, first ID the person, then second make whatever you want. If they tell you that's not what goes into a Sunrise over a Mountain Lake or whatever, look them straight in the eye and tell them it does. They must have had it made wrong before. Your co-bartenders will back you up.
#30
Old 11-02-2010, 11:09 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: North of Canada. Really.
Posts: 7,710
I'm not even sure I'd want to go to bartending school for fun.

My parents went to a mixology course. My parents were nicknamed "Ward and June Cleaver" by some friends of mine, so straight-edge they were. They were about the least likely people to ever go to a bartending school, and so paradoxically the most likely to learn something because they were just that serious about it. But instead they learned nothing and went straight back to drinking Miller Lite. I still don't think my dad has ever had a mixed drink.
#31
Old 11-02-2010, 12:18 PM
Charter Member
Charter Member
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Irvine, California, USA
Posts: 14,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Monkey With a Gun View Post
Nah, that's too evil. I can't do that to you.
At least you've taught me to look up any suggested drink with Google!
#32
Old 11-02-2010, 09:06 PM
BANNED
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: oklahoma city
Posts: 7,886
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
A friend of mine has a bar, so I asked him this question. He has never hired a graduate of bartending school. He says that, "how their tits look in a tight shirt, or how their cleavage looks in a plunging neckline" is the most important factor.

Thinking about his bar, I realize he was being honest.
Uh...you had to think about it??

Best wishes,
hh
#33
Old 11-02-2010, 11:25 PM
Guest
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 829
Quote:
Originally Posted by villa View Post
Amen. And a copy of the Bartender's Bible, which every bar I have worked in has already.
Dude, you can't open the book!

Seriously, I'd rather dime a drink out of my own pocket than open the book. You might as well tell people that you went to bartending school!
#34
Old 11-02-2010, 11:36 PM
Guest
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inner Stickler View Post
ME! I DO! I like sloe gin and I like sloe gin fizzes! Frankly I don't think it's obscure at all. Somehow, I feel that if you can make a california cocaine, you should be able to make a sloe gin fizz.
I've served literally tens of thousands of drinks and never had anyone ask me for a sloe gin anything. In the bars I've tended, a Sloe Gin Fizz is not obscure. It's extinct.

To be fair, I don't know what a California Cocaine is either, if it's served in any kind of drinking vessel.

Last edited by Jake Jones; 11-02-2010 at 11:37 PM.
#35
Old 11-02-2010, 11:39 PM
Elephant Whisperer
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Posts: 38,330
Every bartender I've known has laughed at the notion of bartender school if the subject ever came up. They said just get a job as a barback -- a bartender's assistant -- and you'll learn everytrhing you need to know in a short time.
#36
Old 11-02-2010, 11:43 PM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 14,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by villa View Post
And finally, if it is a really stupid named drink, first ID the person, then second make whatever you want. If they tell you that's not what goes into a Sunrise over a Mountain Lake or whatever, look them straight in the eye and tell them it does. They must have had it made wrong before. Your co-bartenders will back you up.
To which I would reply, that's wonderful. Next time make it the way I want.
#37
Old 11-02-2010, 11:49 PM
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigamarole View Post
Seriously, one of the most important hiring criteria for a bartender (especially female bartenders) is being attractive and personable
Knowing OpalCat in person, I can say that she definitely meets these two criteria!
#38
Old 11-03-2010, 12:16 AM
Guest
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inner Stickler View Post
To which I would reply, that's wonderful. Next time make it the way I want.
To which I would reply: There's the door. You're invited to leave.

Mind you, I wouldn't ask you to leave for ordering a Sloe Gin Fizz, nor would I try to convince you to accept a substitution of my making. I would have asked you to teach me how to make one in exchange for a free drink. Would that be acceptable to you? Would you tell me how to make one now, even though I can't buy one for you?

Totally sincere. Not even a hint of sarcasm. I could look it up, but I'd prefer your directions.
#39
Old 11-03-2010, 12:35 AM
Guest
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 14,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake Jones View Post
To which I would reply: There's the door. You're invited to leave.
Wait, you make up a drink because you can't be bothered to figure out exactly what they want and when they complain, lie about how it's made and the customer's the jerk here? I'm so glad you are a rarity among bartenders.
#40
Old 11-03-2010, 12:49 AM
Guest
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inner Stickler View Post
Wait, you make up a drink because you can't be bothered to figure out exactly what they want and when they complain, lie about how it's made and the customer's the jerk here? I'm so glad you are a rarity among bartenders.
Reading Is Fundemental! Also, you're required to read ALL of it. I'm not spoiling for a virtual fight, dude. Nor do I spoil for an actual one when I'm behind a bar.

Read the rest of my post and respond if you care to. I would sincerely appreciate instructions if you care to give them.
#41
Old 11-03-2010, 01:39 AM
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Austin
Posts: 1,220
I've been bartending for 7 years and my first thought was $150 is really cheap for bartending school. My second was bartenders are always extra snooty about the whole bartending school thing but if thats what gets you a job the fastest so be it. Honestly it really doesn't make much of a difference either way. I always saw bartending school as the equivalent of one of those job recruiting companies. They can definitely help get you in the door places if you don't have a network of people who work in bars and know of openings before they go public.

If you are willing to study drink recipes on your own, then you probably won't need bartending school. Practice is the key and mixing colored liquids is hardly true practice. If they teach flair, though, then that's pretty cool and trendy places like that stuff.

I will disagree with the barback-bartend first method because the only one of my two barbacking jobs turned into bartending as opposed to all of my serving jobs. The barbacking turned bartending never actually turned into a full position either just a fill-in/every now and then thing. The main problem with this method is turnover tends to be low in places that are not corporate and you learn a lot more barbacking in non-corporate bars. Serving then bartending tends to work out pretty well though. Just make sure you are patient and try to keep open availability. Also, it helps to remind them that you would like to be behind the bar. It sounds like a nuisance but everyone I have seen promoted from within did it by reminding management of their interest in bartending shifts.
#42
Old 11-03-2010, 01:46 AM
Member
Join Date: May 2000
Location: True Blue Virginia
Posts: 7,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inner Stickler View Post
To which I would reply, that's wonderful. Next time make it the way I want.
If you want it made a particular way - tell me. However, if it is something which isn't in the Bartender's Bible, and they don't know what's in it, then it is kinda open season...

There was a tad of hyperbole in my post, but I've had customers back when I bartended who would have some kind of assumption I would know this shot they had only ever drunk in a bar in Tucson. I'm sorry, but if you don't know what goes into a Mike Tyson's Punchout, and can only remember it was a bit minty, you're going to get a minty shot which is now what a Mike Tyson's Punchout is in my bar. I just hope I can remember what I put in it in case you like it and order another or want the recipe.

But generally, I'm a believer that if you don't know what's in a drink, it's a bad idea to be drinking it.
#43
Old 11-03-2010, 10:02 AM
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: At long last, home
Posts: 11,043
Listen to the Jake Jones guy. He speaks the truth.
#44
Old 11-03-2010, 11:39 AM
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,173
I need to frequent better bars. I find myself order non-mixed drinks - like a certain bottle of beer or brand of scotch - and I still have to point them out and or correct the bartender. Sure that bottle of Laphroaig is on the high shelf, but don't just blurt out, "We don't have that." Yes you do, honey. Right there. Same place, the guy next to me orders "scotch" meaning whatever's on the rail, right? He gets Crown Royal on the rocks. We were the only two people at the bar.
#45
Old 11-03-2010, 12:29 PM
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: At long last, home
Posts: 11,043
Quote:
Originally Posted by drastic_quench View Post
I need to frequent better bars.
Yes you do. I was in a college town once, ordered a bourbon neat, and I swear to god, the waitress brought me a drink with ice and olives in it.
#46
Old 11-03-2010, 12:45 PM
Member
Join Date: May 2000
Location: True Blue Virginia
Posts: 7,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeanOldLady View Post
Yes you do. I was in a college town once, ordered a bourbon neat, and I swear to god, the waitress brought me a drink with ice and olives in it.
Well I am sure she thought it looked neat.
#47
Old 11-03-2010, 12:52 PM
Charter Member
Join Date: May 2000
Location: SW Side, Chicago
Posts: 41,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeanOldLady View Post
Yes you do. I was in a college town once, ordered a bourbon neat, and I swear to god, the waitress brought me a drink with ice and olives in it.
I've had bartenders--swear to god--ask me what "neat" means. I can't remember where I was, but perhaps "neat" isn't the universal term I thought it was. I've also had bartenders serve me "neat" drinks in a shot glass. Is "rocks glass, room temp, no ice" not the accepted definition of "neat?" Serious question.

Last edited by pulykamell; 11-03-2010 at 12:53 PM.
#48
Old 11-03-2010, 12:58 PM
Guest
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: At long last, home
Posts: 11,043
Serious answer: yes. But sometimes people hire Candi, the 22-year jerkoff whose clientele, also jerkoffs, exclusively order Jager Bombs, PBR or sweet cocktails named after crude sexual acts.
#49
Old 11-03-2010, 01:00 PM
Charter Member
Join Date: May 2000
Location: SW Side, Chicago
Posts: 41,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeanOldLady View Post
Serious answer: yes. But sometimes people hire Candi, the 22-year jerkoff whose clientele, also jerkoffs, exclusively order Jager Bombs, PBR or sweet cocktails named after crude sexual acts.
Yeah, but, to be honest, it wasn't a female bartender in any of my cases, nor was it in a college town, so far as I can remember.

ETA: And what about "up" or "straight up"? Same as neat, or chilled? I think it should technically be the latter, but when I used to use the term "straight up," I don't ever recall a bartender chilling the alcohol before straining it into a glass.

Last edited by pulykamell; 11-03-2010 at 01:04 PM.
#50
Old 11-03-2010, 01:02 PM
Member
Join Date: May 2000
Location: True Blue Virginia
Posts: 7,622
I'd order it straight up. There's no excuse for not understanding neat, but I heard straight up far more often when I bartended.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:20 AM.

Copyright © 2017
Best Topics: doctor and amy orange julius egg selling saffron incubus seafoam green hand signals military radioactive glass storied pomp rutin abortion strip shopping center eshakti shipping shadowrun shaman totems diy aerogarden bosum mate nausea sneezing asstr cuckold enthalpy symbol buying cyanide curb finders psych chart pickle kosher charmed drinking game mass liquor id aaa towing reimbursement pirate etymology are guns waterproof saw dust allergies handprint scanner refrigerated tanker rhyme rules animal house boobs vince morrow fig newton commercial definition causeway meshed glass what is ikea furniture made out of dimmer switch ceiling fan light circle with vertical line through it symbol why does pork give me diarrhea my dog ate multivitamin merrys irish cream shelf life low temp thermostat pros and cons neti pot won't go through nose best chocolate with nuts can i donate blood after getting a flu shot can you tailor a leather jacket pain in cartilage of ear jane goodall speaking fee how to follow someone without getting caught what does lifetime supply mean my cat pees a lot why do monks wear orange robes st bernard chihuahua mix how far is schaumburg il from downtown chicago do altoids have alcohol in them what is a wet willy front end collision frame damage how long does it take to drown where did the phrase god speed come from what is the closest state to africa my cat loves me too much repair crack in pvc pipe 6 inch coaxial cable what is a group of mongoose called cost to install chimney liner removing a watch back