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#1
Old 12-04-2010, 11:26 PM
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Bourbon Drinkers: A Question

I'm still a novice bourbon drinker but I've never had this happen before and wonder if I did something wrong.

I ordered a "Makers Mark, neat". To me, that means the bourbon is served without ice in an old-fashioned cocktail glass.

The server said, "um, you mean straight up?" I replied, "Well, yes, same as "on the rocks" but without the ice."

She brought me a shot glass of bourbon. A shot glass? I sent it back and again repeated my order. The server said, "so, you want a double?" We were interrupted by the owner of the restaurant and the server left without any further conversation. A few minutes later she brought me the damn drink in the right glass.

I've never been served bourbon in a shot glass but like I said, I'm still the rookie. What the hell was that about?
#2
Old 12-05-2010, 12:02 AM
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Few bartenders these days actually know a damn thing about bartending.
Ask for a Manhattan or a Rob Roy and you'll most likely get a blank stare.
Used to be a bartender was a professional - now most are a pretty face and a c-cup.


Damn kids.
#3
Old 12-05-2010, 12:54 AM
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I agree. The bartender didn't know what to do.

I see you are in Indiana. Do you have a reasonable drive to Louisville?
#4
Old 12-05-2010, 01:32 AM
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You did nothing wrong. This exact same thing has happened to me before. Took me a couple seconds to get over my surprise to explain to the bartender that "neat" means "pour it in a rocks glass, no ice." I can't remember exactly where I was, but it was outside my usual drinking area, so I thought perhaps "neat" wasn't part of the local lingo, or something.
#5
Old 12-05-2010, 02:16 AM
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You were right, the bartender was clueless.
#6
Old 12-05-2010, 12:08 PM
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I'm in northern Indiana so Louisville is about 4 hours away. I've not had the pleasure of sipping whiskey in Kentucky yet.
#7
Old 12-05-2010, 12:09 PM
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yep, clueless bartender.

In this situation, I usually order "bourbon neat, in a rocks glass" to avoid this situation unless I know beforehand that the bartender knows what they are doing.
#8
Old 12-05-2010, 12:14 PM
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Silly me. I thought the bartender knew more than me when it comes to alcohol. Don't you have to go to school to be a bartender? Surely that can't be a complicated order.

Just for my own curiosity, is "straight up" the same as "neat"?
#9
Old 12-05-2010, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
I replied, "Well, yes, same as "on the rocks" but without the ice."
This sentence doesn't make any sense to me. It's like asking for a martini with a twist, except without the lemon.

Quote:
She brought me a shot glass of bourbon. A shot glass? I sent it back and again repeated my order. The server said, "so, you want a double?" We were interrupted by the owner of the restaurant and the server left without any further conversation.
If this happened to me, I'd have asked her to serve it in a tumbler. How old was this bartender? My guess: 22.
#10
Old 12-05-2010, 12:58 PM
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I'm not much of a bourbon drinker (more dark rum, myself). But my hubby often orders "Scotch, neat" when we go out for a drink. Every bartender we've encountered so far has understood that this means a shot of Scotch, in a proper glass, the same kind you'd use to serve Scotch on the rocks. If he wanted a shot of Scotch (in a shot glass), he'd ask for "a shot of Scotch".

To me, a shot glass kind of implies you're going to 'shoot' it, which is to say, down it all in one gulp. An old-fashioned (or 'rocks') glass implies you are going to sip it. No Scotch my husband would pay money for deserves to go down in one gulp.
#11
Old 12-05-2010, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
Silly me. I thought the bartender knew more than me when it comes to alcohol. Don't you have to go to school to be a bartender? Surely that can't be a complicated order.

Just for my own curiosity, is "straight up" the same as "neat"?
Bolding mine...
In my experience some places require it, most do not, and where it is required it has a good bit of focus on knowledge of local ordinances to make sure you don't get yourself or your employer in trouble.

When I said bartenders used to be professionals that wasn't hyperbole. It takes a huge amount of effort to learn to make a wide range of drinks properly and to develop a sense of what each of those should taste like. It takes skill and time.

Now I'm not saying you should expect to find this level of experience at every corner bar but it does seem sadly to be a dying craft.
#12
Old 12-05-2010, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
Just for my own curiosity, is "straight up" the same as "neat"?
I discussed this (and mentioned my anecdote above) in a recent thread. The consensus among the bartenders and alcophiles was that "straight up" and "neat" are synonymous. I was able to find a couple sources online that state there is a technical difference. A drink served "straight up" should be shaken with ice, and then the ice strained out of it (in the manner of an "(straight) up" cocktail), but "neat" means a room temperature pour. Nobody in that thread was familiar with anyone making that distinction in practice.

For me, "shot" means served in a shot glass. "Straight up" and "neat" are synonymous, but I only use the former for cocktails and the latter for straight alcohol pours.
#13
Old 12-05-2010, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
I was able to find a couple sources online that state there is a technical difference. A drink served "straight up" should be shaken with ice, and then the ice strained out of it (in the manner of an "(straight) up" cocktail), but "neat" means a room temperature pour. Nobody in that thread was familiar with anyone making that distinction in practice.
There are a few cases where this distinction is important (a very few, granted). For example, if you order a glass of Chartreuse, it could legitimately be served either up or neat, so the bartender may ask for clarification.
#14
Old 12-05-2010, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Hunter Hawk View Post
There are a few cases where this distinction is important (a very few, granted). For example, if you order a glass of Chartreuse, it could legitimately be served either up or neat, so the bartender may ask for clarification.
Hmm...Maybe I should use that as a litmus test. Order Chartreuse (the standard green, if there is a choice) "up" at a bar and see if anyone actually serves it shaken with ice and strained. First bartender to do so gets a healthy tip. I actually wonder how many bars have Chartreuse. Is it a standard bar liquor? Is there some obvious cocktail I'm forgetting that uses it as an ingredient? I normally buy it for my father on Xmas. (Ooo...looking online, I see the local liquor stores got a bottle of both the yellow and green in VEP, extra aged. I know what papa's getting for Christmas this year.)

Last edited by pulykamell; 12-05-2010 at 02:11 PM.
#15
Old 12-05-2010, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
Is it a standard bar liquor?
It is at the bars where I drink

To continue the hijack, try doing a 60/40 or 66/33 mix of the yellow and green versions (it works with the standard offerings, but is better with the VEP, of course). This is sort of a homemade version of the "Chartreuse Episcopal" that they put out a while back for their anniversary. It has a really interesting flavor profile.
#16
Old 12-05-2010, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoid View Post
Few bartenders these days actually know a damn thing about bartending.
Ask for a Manhattan or a Rob Roy and you'll most likely get a blank stare.
Used to be a bartender was a professional - now most are a pretty face and a c-cup.


Damn kids.
Last night, Mrs. Cad wanted vodka and grapefruit juice so I told her to order a greyhound. He had no clue what we were talking about. Apparently, the town he grew up in in California called it something different.
#17
Old 12-05-2010, 03:52 PM
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Funny, I've noticed that recently in a few bars around here ... bourbon neat being served in a shot glass. I thought it was odd, but was content (enough) to sip it out of the shot glass. The glass isn't forcing me to shoot it or anything.
#18
Old 12-05-2010, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
Last night, Mrs. Cad wanted vodka and grapefruit juice so I told her to order a greyhound. He had no clue what we were talking about. Apparently, the town he grew up in in California called it something different.
I kinda get this. Local drinkers can conjure up a popular name for a drink that may not be known everywhere. Would it have been a faux pas to order a "vodka & grapefruit"? I've often thought that bartenders should have an internet connection behind the bar to be able to make the 9 million different cocktails out there.
#19
Old 12-05-2010, 04:24 PM
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Don't remind me of Chartreuse...
#20
Old 12-05-2010, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
Last night, Mrs. Cad wanted vodka and grapefruit juice so I told her to order a greyhound. He had no clue what we were talking about. Apparently, the town he grew up in in California called it something different.
A greyhound is made with gin, you fool! Gin! The vodka intruders shall not win!
#21
Old 12-05-2010, 04:48 PM
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I wasn't going to drink today, but now I'm thirsty...
#22
Old 12-05-2010, 05:02 PM
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Just drink it straight from the bottle, avoids any confusion!
#23
Old 12-05-2010, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delphica View Post
Funny, I've noticed that recently in a few bars around here ... bourbon neat being served in a shot glass. I thought it was odd, but was content (enough) to sip it out of the shot glass. The glass isn't forcing me to shoot it or anything.
True. But the nice thing about a rocks glass is you can get your nose in there as you're drinking and get a nice, healthy whiff of the bourbon, and it really does heighten the flavor and experience in general.
#24
Old 12-05-2010, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
I kinda get this. Local drinkers can conjure up a popular name for a drink that may not be known everywhere. Would it have been a faux pas to order a "vodka & grapefruit"? I've often thought that bartenders should have an internet connection behind the bar to be able to make the 9 million different cocktails out there.
Yeah, I just call that drink a "gin & grapefruit" cuz I just don't trust bartenders these days to know what a greyhound or its salt-rimmed cousin, the salty dog, is.
#25
Old 12-06-2010, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter Hawk View Post
It is at the bars where I drink

To continue the hijack, try doing a 60/40 or 66/33 mix of the yellow and green versions (it works with the standard offerings, but is better with the VEP, of course). This is sort of a homemade version of the "Chartreuse Episcopal" that they put out a while back for their anniversary. It has a really interesting flavor profile.
I'm a young'en (27), but I want to drink where you drink. All my favorite drinks are seriously old school - cider, Manhattans... I want to go out and try a Chartreuse Episcopal, but I have very little faith in the local bars...
#26
Old 12-06-2010, 01:00 AM
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I like whiskey served in one of these.

It's hard to tell the size here, but it's larger than a shot class and about 1/3 the size of a rocks glass.
#27
Old 12-06-2010, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sehmket View Post
I want to go out and try a Chartreuse Episcopal, but I have very little faith in the local bars...
I guarantee you that none of your local bars will know what it is. FWIW, "Chartreuse Episcopal" is not the name of a drink; it was the name of a specific blend that the monks put out for their <mumble>-hundredth anniversary, and it is no longer available. The boys at the Zig Zag in Seattle got their hands on a bottle and then decided to reverse-engineer it. The proportions they came up with (60/40) really do taste remarkably like the official blend.

But you're best off just buying your own bottles and making it at home.


Back to the bourbon thing: I don't like straight whiskey, but I will admit that the practice of serving bourbon in a rocks glass with a single large spherical ice "cube" does intrigue me. The theory is that you start off with very cold ice and then the spherical shape minimizes the surface area, so it chills the drink and melts slowly, so you get a little water to open up the flavors without over-diluting the drink.
#28
Old 12-10-2010, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
Don't you have to go to school to be a bartender?
Nope. (I've been a bartender before.)
#29
Old 12-10-2010, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by MeanOldLady View Post
A greyhound is made with gin, you fool! Gin! The vodka intruders shall not win!
They've corrupted the martini--we must stand & fight!

There are some very serious young bartenders in Houston. Here's the menu for Anvil--with just a sample of their full drink selection. They also offer The List of 100 Cocktails we all should sample.
#30
Old 12-10-2010, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by MeanOldLady View Post
...If this happened to me, I'd have asked her to serve it in a tumbler...
So. I saw 'bourbon' in the title and I thought, "I could go for some MOL humor right now." I had no doubt that you would be posting within the first 10 posts.

After many years of teetotaling, I decided to start drinking again. I like a double shot of straight tequila, warm. I was in Manhattan when the bartender taught me the proper way to order it (neat).

When I'm home in East Bumbafuck Rochester, NY, I still try to order that way, all cool souding and shit. Never works. They chill my drink with ice, or serve it on the rocks or put lemons or limes all around it, they toss salt at me. WTF.
#31
Old 12-10-2010, 09:30 AM
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Try asking them for a "water back" with your bourbon next time, and see what you get.....
#32
Old 12-10-2010, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget Burke View Post
They've corrupted the martini--we must stand & fight!
You're the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nzinga, Seated View Post
So. I saw 'bourbon' in the title and I thought, "I could go for some MOL humor right now." I had no doubt that you would be posting within the first 10 posts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ministryman View Post
Try asking them for a "water back" with your bourbon next time, and see what you get.....
Uhh, you'd get a glass of water? Don't tell me there's confusion over what a water back is now.
#33
Old 12-10-2010, 10:54 PM
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Seriously, WTF. Thankfully I already had the glass of water before I ordered the bourbon so it wasn't an issue for me. It's not like bartenders are making brain surgeon wages here. How difficult could it be for a bar to have a well-educated bartender? I know there are bartending schools locally. Is there really no call for simple bar service anymore?
#34
Old 12-10-2010, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget Burke View Post
They've corrupted the martini--we must stand & fight!

There are some very serious young bartenders in Houston. Here's the menu for Anvil--with just a sample of their full drink selection. They also offer The List of 100 Cocktails we all should sample.
I just found a new to-do list!

That reminds me, I've been meaning to try a sidecar...
#35
Old 12-11-2010, 12:01 AM
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Well, I'm more of a Scotch drinker, but I'm pretty sure you don't have to be a genius to know "neat" means "no fucking ice".
#36
Old 12-11-2010, 01:24 AM
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But you'd be surprised how many bartenders either don't know it, or forget it when they make your drink. I had a never-to-be-sufficiently-damned bartender in San Antonio serve me 18 year old Macallan on the rocks! The waitress was a bit shocked when I flipped the ice cubes out of my glass with a spoon onto the table. Cowboys don't appreciate good Scotch.
#37
Old 02-01-2015, 02:00 PM
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The norm around my area is this:
straight-up means: straight out of bottle,nothing added; but chilled-whatever the method(straining through ice or refrig.)
neat means: straight out of bottle @ room temperature
#38
Old 02-01-2015, 02:50 PM
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I missed this one back in 2010 but I'd always thought that a neat bourbon was a 2oz pour, not the standard shot of 1.5oz.
I just looked around and it seems that this isn't at all universal.

Discuss.
#39
Old 02-01-2015, 04:52 PM
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Not any place I've been. To me, neat and up mean the same thing: liquor in a snifter or rocks glass straight from the bottle. No chilling, no diluting. I've never encountered any difference in the amount of liquor poured when the terms are used. Since I only patronize places with generous bartenders/owners, I get a healthy amount each serving.
#40
Old 02-01-2015, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoid View Post
Few bartenders these days actually know a damn thing about bartending.
Ask for a Manhattan or a Rob Roy and you'll most likely get a blank stare.
Used to be a bartender was a professional - now most are a pretty face and a c-cup.
I agree.

I asked for a Jim Beam neat and got a Manhatten. I can't stand Vermouth and tasted it immediately. When I questioned the dunce who served it to me she gave me the deer in headlights look and said "isn't that was neat means?"

This was in an expensive hotel bar!

A lot of bars, including those in high priced restaurants don't make Old Fashioned Cocktails correctly either. I had better not see you reach for a god damned bottle of Jero mix!

Some things are just regional though. Around here if I want bourbon with white soda I'll ask for "Beam and sweet". In a lot of other places in the U.S. they don't know what the heck I'm asking for.
#41
Old 02-02-2015, 10:58 PM
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I've switched to drinking my bourbon neat all the time, and I consistently get straight bourbon, direct pour from the room-temp bottle, in a short glass.

If I got ice or anything else in it, I'd send it back.
#42
Old 02-02-2015, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
A lot of bars, including those in high priced restaurants don't make Old Fashioned Cocktails correctly either. I had better not see you reach for a god damned bottle of Jero mix!
Huh. I had no idea that there was an "old fashioned" cocktail mix, but, sure enough, there is. I'm just confused why one would need a mix for an old fashioned. There are different types of old fashioneds--Wisconsin has its own take on the cocktail that is different from the rest of the US--but none of them should require a mix, and I really can't see how a mix makes it any easier.
#43
Old 02-02-2015, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jnglmassiv View Post
I missed this one back in 2010 but I'd always thought that a neat bourbon was a 2oz pour, not the standard shot of 1.5oz.
I just looked around and it seems that this isn't at all universal.

Discuss.
I actually have heard something like this. I've been at some bars where "neat" is always a double shot (in a tumbler, of course), while a "shot" is a single in a shot glass.
#44
Old 02-02-2015, 11:59 PM
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The hyper marketing of vodka, especially flavored vodka so the kids can have simple drinks that get them drunk fast, seems to have ruined it for patrons who like actual cocktails or who like to taste fantastic scotches and bourbon....

I suspect that bartending schools have a less demanding curriculum than in days passed, too.
#45
Old 02-03-2015, 12:50 PM
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I was a bartender for quite a few years, and I loved to study old bartending guides. Here is how I always understood the terms.
  • Neat - booze is poured directly from bottle to rocks glass
  • Up - Chilled and strained into a cocktail glass.
  • Straight - see Neat
  • Straight up - not really a thing. Should only be used when ordering pure booze. For example, I can't make a "straight up" Manhattan, because it can't be "straight" So if you order a Vodka Straight Up, it is the same as up.
#46
Old 02-04-2015, 11:12 AM
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The very idea of anyone 'shooting' a good bourbon makes my eyes roll back into my head!

My granddad taught me to drink bourbon and branch, but nowadays that would just get you bourbon and tap water, so I always order mine neat and have always gotten one shot of bourbon in a rocks glass.
#47
Old 02-04-2015, 11:14 AM
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I think an unmentioned & key point in this discussion is whether the bartender is permitted to do free pour. The question back about whether you wanted "a double" makes me think it's one of those bars that is strict about a policy such as "Order a brand name bourbon, you get one jigger of bourbon. Want more? Pay more."
#48
Old 02-04-2015, 01:19 PM
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I always thought "straight up" and "neat" were synonymous, but "neat" was a more British term. I didn't think the size of the glass meant anything. I am probably the least sophisticated bourbon drinker you ever stepped over lying in the gutter, so what do I know.

Regards,
Shodan
#49
Old 02-04-2015, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
I'm in northern Indiana so Louisville is about 4 hours away. I've not had the pleasure of sipping whiskey in Kentucky yet.
If you can, visit the Maker's Mark distillery. A beautiful area of Kentucky, with entertaining informative tour guides. You won't be able to sip on sight but the stuff permeates the air!
#50
Old 02-04-2015, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by FriarTed View Post
If you can, visit the Maker's Mark distillery. A beautiful area of Kentucky, with entertaining informative tour guides. You won't be able to sip on sight but the stuff permeates the air!
I'm not sure what you mean exactly by sipping on site, but they certainly do have a tasting at the end (at least they did when I did, with four drinks: an unaged Makers Mark, a five year Makers, an overaged seven years Makers, and the 46. It actually was really interesting tasting an unaged whiskey, a "properly" aged whiskey, and an overaged whiskey one after the other.)
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