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#1
Old 01-20-2011, 09:54 PM
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When did a white guy wearing black makeup became unacceptable?

I'm watching the 1st episode of "Kids In The Hall" from 1989, and there's a character "Mississippi Gary", a black blues guy played by one of the white guys in black makeup. I also recall Billy Crystal on SNL repeatedly doing his imitation of Sammy Davis Jr, in black makeup, in the mid 80's.

To my knowledge, these bits weren't considered offensive, but I certainly could have missed any outrage (since it was before we had the SDMB and the BBQ Pit for discussing recreational outrage).

I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fly today. Did something specific happen, or was it just gradual changing of sensibilities?
#2
Old 01-20-2011, 09:57 PM
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Robert Downey, Jr. played a black guy in Tropic Thunder, and it didn't raise much of a stir. I think it's mostly just a problem when it's done for satire, not when it's a realistic depiction.
#3
Old 01-20-2011, 10:11 PM
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It depends on the portrayal.

Ted Danson got all sorts of (justified) criticism when he performed in blackface for an awards show (even though he asked Whoopi Goldberg if it was OK). But that was minstrel show blackface, which is completely anethema.

OTOH, Fred Armisen, a white guy, has been portraying Barak Obama for several years on SNL with barely a peep from anyone.

If you're doing it for comic effect, then it's probably OK, as long as you stay away from the offensive stereotypes like minstrel shows. For a dramatic role, it'd probably raise some hackles.
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#4
Old 01-20-2011, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Robert Downey, Jr. played a black guy in Tropic Thunder, and it didn't raise much of a stir. I think it's mostly just a problem when it's done for satire, not when it's a realistic depiction.
White actors in blackface are pretty much verboten in the States, though it's difficult to tell exactly when it became completely taboo.

Not so much in Australia, though: http://youtube.com/watch?v=o0qi5sJRywY
#5
Old 01-20-2011, 10:13 PM
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It's not skin-darkening makeup as such that's potentially offensive; it's blackface.
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:14 PM
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Darrell Hammond used to do Jesse Jackson as well, and no one batted an eye.
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:20 PM
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=UfiNT6AKG0s

This one is from 1950. It's some kind of tribute to old time entertainment.
#8
Old 01-20-2011, 10:24 PM
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There's a difference between a white actor portraying a black character, and blackface. Darrell Hammond as Jesse Jackson is making fun of a specific celebrity. Al Jolson in blackface is making fun of black people.

Also, Robert Downey Jr.'s character in Tropic Thunder was white. He was just pretending to be black for the movie his character was starring in.

While I'm at it, Ted Danson's blackface routine wasn't at an award show, it was at a roast.
#9
Old 01-20-2011, 10:31 PM
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Thre's a difference between minstrelsy and a studied impersonation of a specific black person or character; I didn't see Tropic Thunder, but I gather Robert Downey Jr.'s character didn't act shiftless, gobble watermelon or make sucking sounds at passing white women. It's a question of intent.

BTW, Fred Armisen is of Hispanic origin, so it's not like some blonde preppie is cooning it up in blackface as Obama.

When did blackface become unacceptable? Hard to say. It was still a semi-respectable Hollywood trope as recently as the early 70s, or whenever Richard Burton last played Othello. Michelle Shocked once did an album substantially consisting of minstrel-type music, just to remind us all where we came from, culturally. It was her best album to date.
#10
Old 01-20-2011, 10:39 PM
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Downey in Tropic Thunder was actually playing a white character who himself was an actor playing a black character. It was a satirization of Hollywood egos and actors' stunts to win Oscars.
#11
Old 01-20-2011, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by RealityChuck View Post

Ted Danson got all sorts of (justified) criticism when he performed in blackface for an awards show (even though he asked Whoopi Goldberg if it was OK).
I had forgotten all about this, but I remember how he apparently thought because he was "getting at" Whoopi, he somehow had a pass on the minstrel show action.......
#12
Old 01-20-2011, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by fuzzypickles
Not so much in Australia, though: http://youtube.com/watch?v=o0qi5sJRywY
An irony of that is the guys were of Indian and Pakistani descent.

It wasn't uncommon for black performers- especially light skinned ones- to don blackface even as late as the 1920s. I've seen Bing Crosby in blackface in 1930s movies, but that's evidently about when the backlash began because you rarely see it after that except in movies like The Al Jolson Story (in scenes set in the 1920s). Archie Bunker was wearing blackface in the episode of All in the Family where his grandson was born and by then it was a major taboo.

So I'd say it was on its way out by World War II and the Civil Rights movement killed it off as acceptable entertainment. This is in the U.S. only; other countries without the minstrel show baggage still have elements of it such as Zwarte Piet (Black Peter) in Spain and the Low Countries and St. Nicholas's Six to Eight Black Men.
#13
Old 01-20-2011, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Sampiro View Post
An irony of that is the guys were of Indian and Pakistani descent.
How is that ironic? Unless you're talking about racism in general...

OTOH, portraying Michael Jackson in "whiteface" is, indeed, ironic.
#14
Old 01-21-2011, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Sampiro View Post
An irony of that is the guys were of Indian and Pakistani descent.

It wasn't uncommon for black performers- especially light skinned ones- to don blackface even as late as the 1920s. I've seen Bing Crosby in blackface in 1930s movies, but that's evidently about when the backlash began because you rarely see it after that except in movies like The Al Jolson Story (in scenes set in the 1920s). Archie Bunker was wearing blackface in the episode of All in the Family where his grandson was born and by then it was a major taboo.
He did it in Holiday Inn (1942) celebrating Lincoln's Birthday and IIRC the act included stereotyped pickaninnies too. That scene is often cut when the movie is shown today.
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Old 01-21-2011, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Krokodil View Post
Thre's a difference between minstrelsy and a studied impersonation of a specific black person or character; I didn't see Tropic Thunder, but I gather Robert Downey Jr.'s character didn't act shiftless, gobble watermelon or make sucking sounds at passing white women. It's a question of intent.
...
When did blackface become unacceptable? Hard to say. It was still a semi-respectable Hollywood trope as recently as the early 70s, or whenever Richard Burton last played Othello.
Did Richard Burton's Othello act shiftless, gobble watermelon, and make sucking sounds at passing white women?
#16
Old 01-21-2011, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
He did it in Holiday Inn (1942) celebrating Lincoln's Birthday and IIRC the act included stereotyped pickaninnies too. That scene is often cut when the movie is shown today.
Oh My Frigging Damn- wasn't aware of that. I've only seen the cut version. I'm more offended by Louise Beavers (the large black lady) singing about Lincoln settin' the darkies free than I am by the white she-pickaninny; at least the white actors probably weren't embarrassed.

Last edited by Sampiro; 01-21-2011 at 02:13 AM.
#17
Old 01-21-2011, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by spark240 View Post
Did Richard Burton's Othello act shiftless, gobble watermelon, and make sucking sounds at passing white women?
Only in the wacky outtakes.
#18
Old 01-21-2011, 02:24 AM
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What exactly does it mean to "act shiftless?"
#19
Old 01-21-2011, 02:35 AM
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What exactly does it mean to "act shiftless?"
To act lazy, or to lack ambition. To be dishonest. To be unwilling or unable to hold a respectable job. This was a commonly held stereotype of black people that went hand-in-hand with the fondness of watermelon and the other stereotypes bigoted people held.
#20
Old 01-21-2011, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Revtim View Post
When did a white guy wearing black makeup became unacceptable?
Sometime after Eddie Cantor.
#21
Old 01-21-2011, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by BrainGlutton View Post
Sometime after Eddie Cantor.
Sophie Tucker was also a Coon Shouter before evolving into the Red Hot Mama stage. Some of her raunchy comedy began in character as a black woman, though it came to be an old Jewish woman.

Shirley Q. Liquor- a white man who does a black drag act- is the only popular blackface performer I can think of today. Whoopi Goldberg and RuPaul have both praised his act, but he's picketed at many of his club dates. (He's undeniably funny in character.)

Last edited by Sampiro; 01-21-2011 at 02:47 AM.
#22
Old 01-21-2011, 03:13 AM
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The minstrel show deconstructed, as it were.
#23
Old 01-21-2011, 03:19 AM
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In a way (bear with me here) it's sad the minstrel show has passed from the scene. It was the one uniquely American form of live stage entertainment ever invented. Serious theater is older than Sophocles, music is older still, Vaudeville was just American music-hall, Broadway musicals derived from Old World operettas, jazz-dance from ballet, but the minstrel show was an American original. For most of American history, white America regarded black America with a curious mixture of fear, contempt, and affection. In the minstrel show, at any rate, we see only contempt and affection: The blacks are not to be taken seriously, but they are in a way to be envied, as free spirits untrammeled by civilized social conventions.

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#24
Old 01-21-2011, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Sampiro View Post
So I'd say it was on its way out by World War II and the Civil Rights movement killed it off as acceptable entertainment. This is in the U.S. only; other countries without the minstrel show baggage still have elements of it such as Zwarte Piet (Black Peter) in Spain and the Low Countries and St. Nicholas's Six to Eight Black Men.
Sampiro, I <3 U and stuff, but if that "Zwarte Piet" is from Spain I need a new passport.

In Spain you used to get something similar to blackface (dark base makeup but IIRC no exaggerated lips, at least in the ones I've seen) on January 5th "receiving the Magi into town" parades; it became obsolete as soon as we started having actual black dudes available to take the role of Baltasar. You still get blackface in cases where there aren't black people available, but in any case it's intended to be a representation of Africa - simplified and superficial (it's for the kids, not for a PhD in geography), but if it offends it's by mistake (the guy who has been playing Baltasar at my mother's parish on the Epiphany's high Mass for some 25 years recently got told to drop the "Mamie" accent, on account that nowadays we all know black folk don't sound like that - if that parish ever gets a black parishioner he is so getting volunteered for the role).

I remember that year when there were already black people living in my small town but Baltasar was a white guy: the major's ears got burned through by all manner of folk demanding to know why had such a miscasting taken place. The first black player Pamplona's soccer club had was received in the dressing room with "by the way, you'll be playing Baltasar this year, are you familiar with the role?" He wasn't, but he thought it was absolutely cool.

Last edited by Nava; 01-21-2011 at 05:07 AM.
#25
Old 01-21-2011, 06:26 AM
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It's acceptable in comedy, but would be frowned upon in a social setting. You probably shouldn't black up before attending a dinner party for example.
#26
Old 01-21-2011, 06:31 AM
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In the UK the most well known variant was the Black and White Minstrel Show. It had been running since the 50s and entered the 70s still pretty much accepted. However, it didn't make it out of the 70s still on television, it was cancelled in 1978.

So I guess in the UK the answer is "somewhere in the 70s".
#27
Old 01-21-2011, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Krokodil View Post
BTW, Fred Armisen is of Hispanic origin, so it's not like some blonde preppie is cooning it up in blackface as Obama.
Does that matter? Armisen isn't black, Obama is. I didn't know Armisen's background but I don't think it's better or worse if you get extra minority points.

Quote:
It was still a semi-respectable Hollywood trope as recently as the early 70s, or whenever Richard Burton last played Othello.
Burton played Othello onstage in 1956. Olivier did Othello on stage in the early '60s and a film version came out in 1965. The rules were different for serious actors. That was especially true for British actors: they'd been playing Othello since Shakespeare wrote the play, and blackface was an American invention.
#28
Old 01-21-2011, 07:55 AM
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I still can't believe Neil Diamond did it in The Jazz Singer. I realize that it's a reference to Al Jolson's minstrel shows and the original version of the film*, but it doesn't play well at all in the period of Diamond's movie. It drew pretty uniformly condemnatory statements in reviews of the film.


For that matter, I was troubled by Gene Wilder's shoe polish-covered face in Silver Streak. I think they got more of a break because this film was intentionally a comedy.



So by circa 1980 movies were still doing it, but people were shifting guiltily in their seats.





* regarding Jolson's minstrel performances:

Quote:
Jolson was not a racist. A Russian-born Jew, he openly befriended black performers at a time when it was unpopular to do so. In Jolson: The Legend Comes to Life (Oxford Univ. Press, NY, 1988, p. 171), historian Herbert Goldman tells of a night when the black song writing team of Noble Sissle and Eubie Blake were refused service in a Hartford restaurant. Jolson heard about it, and the next night treated them to a meal and a private performance. Jolson and Blake remained friends from then onwards.

...

Considered one of the greatest entertainers of his time, Jolson's films are often dismissed as embarrassments today. Whatever his intentions were, the sight of a white man covered with burnt cork singing "Mammy" has become an unsettling reminder of the racial/cultural mindset that minstrelsy embodied.
http://musicals101.com/minstrelb.htm

Last edited by CalMeacham; 01-21-2011 at 07:57 AM.
#29
Old 01-21-2011, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Sampiro View Post
It wasn't uncommon for black performers- especially light skinned ones- to don blackface even as late as the 1920s.
Not only that, but black performers put on blackface to do minstrel shows for black audiences. Blackface in a minstrel show was part of the costume, much as clowns or mimes wear whiteface. Audiences of the time -- black and white -- didn't see black men; they saw minstrels (much as we see someone in whiteface as a mime).

Minstrel shows weren't entirely demeaning stereotypes (Mr. Bones was a classic trickster figure), but there were plenty of them to go around, and they overwhelmed the less offensive portions of the show. People began to see the characters as portraying Blacks, not minstrels, and the shows lost favor (also partly because of the rise of movies as entertainment -- they went the same route as vaudeville). Even into the 50s, though, they were fondly remembered, but by white audiences exclusively.

Note that link that Brainglutton posted. Venon and Ryan's introduction recalls many great minstrel performers -- including Bert Williams, a Black comedian who performed in blackface, but who avoided racial stereotypes in his act. Williams was considered by other comedians of the time as one of the greatest, and Booker T. Washington said of him, "He has done more for his race than I have."
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#30
Old 01-21-2011, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Revtim View Post
I'm watching the 1st episode of "Kids In The Hall" from 1989, and there's a character "Mississippi Gary", a black blues guy played by one of the white guys in black makeup. I also recall Billy Crystal on SNL repeatedly doing his imitation of Sammy Davis Jr, in black makeup, in the mid 80's.

To my knowledge, these bits weren't considered offensive, but I certainly could have missed any outrage (since it was before we had the SDMB and the BBQ Pit for discussing recreational outrage).

I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fly today. Did something specific happen, or was it just gradual changing of sensibilities?
The whole blackface thing hasn't been funny since 1865.......IMHO

Last edited by ministryman; 01-21-2011 at 09:19 AM.
#31
Old 01-21-2011, 09:50 AM
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Not only that, but black performers put on blackface to do minstrel shows for black audiences. Blackface in a minstrel show was part of the costume, much as clowns or mimes wear whiteface. Audiences of the time -- black and white -- didn't see black men; they saw minstrels (much as we see someone in whiteface as a mime).

Minstrel shows weren't entirely demeaning stereotypes (Mr. Bones was a classic trickster figure), but there were plenty of them to go around, and they overwhelmed the less offensive portions of the show. People began to see the characters as portraying Blacks, not minstrels, and the shows lost favor (also partly because of the rise of movies as entertainment -- they went the same route as vaudeville). Even into the 50s, though, they were fondly remembered, but by white audiences exclusively.
Well, there is a definite ontological linkage here between "blacks" and "minstrels." The minstrel show was the product of a society where the finest black in America, even a larned skolar like Zip Coon, was an obviously inferior creature next to Huck Finn's Pap. And because they were inferior, their stage portrayals could be minstrels, mimes, mummers, all-licensed fools, zanies, Harlequins -- that is, characters who, in an age of very stiff social conventions and mores, could say or do anything and get away with it, however vulgar or shocking, because they had no higher social expectations to meet and no dignity to lose.

Last edited by BrainGlutton; 01-21-2011 at 09:51 AM.
#32
Old 01-21-2011, 09:52 AM
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The whole blackface thing hasn't been funny since 1865.......IMHO
Funny isn't everything. IEHO.
#33
Old 01-21-2011, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by RealityChuck View Post
OTOH, Fred Armisen, a white guy, has been portraying Barak Obama for several years on SNL with barely a peep from anyone.
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Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
Darrell Hammond used to do Jesse Jackson as well, and no one batted an eye.
It may be a factor that in both cases, not much tint was required to approximate Obama's and Jackson's skin tone. I suspect they'd be a lot more reluctant to have a white performer imitate someone with very dark skin.
#34
Old 01-21-2011, 10:14 AM
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I just thought of two current examples of white comedians playing black people: Frank Caliendo as Charles Barkley and Jimmy Kimmel as Karl Malone. As far as I know there's no hue and cry about these because they're playing specific people and mocking their characteristics, and not doing any racial stuff.
#35
Old 01-21-2011, 10:31 AM
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Random memories:

The very first time I learned what 'blackface' was was on a TV comedy with Nell Carter. She played nanny for a white family. One of the daughters convinced the youngest son to dance in blackface at Nell's church. And then we all learned how very very bad blackface is. I'd estimate this as an early 80's show. Based on this I'd also estimate that that is the time when blackface==bad became common. In other words, they wouldn't make a very special show about it if it was commonly known and generally accepted would they? I can't imagine a modern show addressing blackface in one of their shows.

I agree that SNL et al. who perform as someone else avoids the line since the bits are about the celebrity and not about race. It's equivalent to a dark haired guy wearing a blond wig to impersonate someone blond. I'm not even sure if it qualifies if they aren't pigmenting their skin.

When Miss Saigon (musical) premiered, there was a small amount of protest from the Asian community about a white actor being cast in the lead male role, who is Asian. Most of the protest focused on jobs for Asian actors rather than some insidious racial insensitivity. Though I recall that the production also stopped Asian-ifying the actor's appearance in response.
#36
Old 01-21-2011, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by sachertorte
When Miss Saigon (musical) premiered, there was a small amount of protest from the Asian community about a white actor being cast in the lead male role, who is Asian. Most of the protest focused on jobs for Asian actors rather than some insidious racial insensitivity. Though I recall that the production also stopped Asian-ifying the actor's appearance in response.
One of the most irksome things about that to me was one of the ringleaders was the (not Asian) Tony Randall, who in Seven Faces of Dr. Lao portrayed an Asian stereotype more offensive than Mickey Rooney's character in Breakfast at Tiffanys. The hooplah centered specifically on Jonathan Pryce who had originated the role of the Engineer (a Franco-Vietnamese pimp) but whose successors have almost all been Asian, albeit they've run the gamut (Filipino, Japanese, Hawaiian-Chinese, etc.). I've wondered if they added the "halfbreed" slur and the lines about his father being a Frenchman since the first production.

What's hysterical is that the show has been released to high schools and there are several clips on YouTube from earnest all-white-teenager productions. (One random example of many.)

Re: SNL- Maya Rudolph, who is biracial, used to darken her skin with makeup to play some black characters and lighten it to play some white characters.

Last edited by Sampiro; 01-21-2011 at 11:00 AM.
#37
Old 01-21-2011, 11:32 AM
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Random memories:

The very first time I learned what 'blackface' was was on a TV comedy with Nell Carter. She played nanny for a white family. One of the daughters convinced the youngest son to dance in blackface at Nell's church.
I don't remember the name of the show but I remember the episode. He began to sing Al Jolson's "Swanee" and abruptly got pulled off stage. Right after, the kid said, "What's wrong?! I was imitating Al Jolson! He was a black singer!" (This kid being no older than eight and not up on certain facts of cultural history.)

Last edited by BrainGlutton; 01-21-2011 at 11:33 AM.
#38
Old 01-21-2011, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by BrainGlutton View Post
I don't remember the name of the show but I remember the episode. He began to sing Al Jolson's "Swanee" and abruptly got pulled off stage. Right after, the kid said, "What's wrong?! I was imitating Al Jolson! He was a black singer!" (This kid being no older than eight and not up on certain facts of cultural history.)
While in college, I went to see a play at school set in the 1920's. Between the acts, they would play songs from the era. When an Al Jolson song came up, the old lady asked me if I knew who that was. I said "Al Jolson." and then because I'm a jerk (not ignorant), I added, "That famous Black singer." She patted my knee and said, "He wasn't Black. He was a nice Jewish boy."
#39
Old 01-21-2011, 11:56 AM
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Patrick Stewart has played Othello without makeup in a show with an otherwise all-black cast. It's kind of the opposite of blackface, but it's still also kind of a racial stunt. I don't think it drew any criticism.
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Old 01-21-2011, 12:04 PM
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In Germany, blackface is still an element in the holiday of Epiphany on January 6th. There's no caroling on Christmas itself, but on Epiphany groups of children around the age of ten go from house to house representing the three wise men, one of whom is black. You can see blackface in the picture of the wikipedia article.
#41
Old 01-21-2011, 12:05 PM
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I don't know about any criticism of that Patrick Stewart Othello. I'm not sure why there would have been any, though. He wasn't pretending to be black. They cast the play in a way that allowed a white guy to play Othello without makeup and maintaing his status as an outsider.
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Old 01-27-2011, 11:23 PM
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Then-House Minority Leader Bob Michel (R-Ill.) took some heat in 1988 when he fondly recalled the minstrel shows of his youth: http://books.google.com/books?id=5a4...ckface&f=false
#43
Old 01-28-2011, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic View Post
Downey in Tropic Thunder was actually playing a white character who himself was an actor playing a black character. It was a satirization of Hollywood egos and actors' stunts to win Oscars.
He was the dude dressed as a dude disguised as another dude!





Anyway, ahem......


The Minstrel Show to the past has gone
His glory days are all behind him.
His racist charms he hath girded on.
Lest he smiles we shall not find him.


And so forth.
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Old 01-28-2011, 12:19 AM
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I remember the first time I saw Darrell Hammond do Jesse Jackson on SNL I kinda caught my breath and wondered if this was "OK" or not. Was sorta surprised when it turned out to be a "no biggie" thing. Jackson was one of Hammond's weaker bits and it didn't get much play anyhow.
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Old 01-28-2011, 04:58 PM
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Funny isn't everything. IEHO.
What does IEHO mean? Neither Google's define function nor the urban dictionary know.

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Old 01-28-2011, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer View Post
What does IEHO mean? Neither Google's define function nor the urban dictionary know.
That's because it's not a standard abbreviation, but a riff on IMHO: In Everybody's Humble Opinion
#47
Old 01-29-2011, 02:56 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Gumi, S. Korea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marley23 View Post
Does that matter? Armisen isn't black, Obama is. I didn't know Armisen's background but I don't think it's better or worse if you get extra minority points.
La Raza, the HIspanic cultural identity, describes people of a mixture of white, African and indiginous American bloodlines. Armisen, who likely has some Black ancestry (his mother is Venezuelan), has more "right" to play Obama than, say, a young Chevy Chase would. And he resembles and impersonates the man a lot more/ better than Kenan Thompson or Jay Pharaoh, which trumps most other considerations.
#48
Old 01-31-2011, 08:46 PM
TBG TBG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sachertorte View Post
Random memories:

The very first time I learned what 'blackface' was was on a TV comedy with Nell Carter. She played nanny for a white family. One of the daughters convinced the youngest son to dance in blackface at Nell's church. And then we all learned how very very bad blackface is. I'd estimate this as an early 80's show. Based on this I'd also estimate that that is the time when blackface==bad became common. In other words, they wouldn't make a very special show about it if it was commonly known and generally accepted would they? I can't imagine a modern show addressing blackface in one of their shows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainGlutton View Post
I don't remember the name of the show but I remember the episode. He began to sing Al Jolson's "Swanee" and abruptly got pulled off stage. Right after, the kid said, "What's wrong?! I was imitating Al Jolson! He was a black singer!" (This kid being no older than eight and not up on certain facts of cultural history.)
The show was Gimme A Break, and the kid was Joey Lawrence, who was basically the Nell Carter character's adopted son, not a son in the family she was working for.
#49
Old 02-01-2011, 10:41 AM
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Location: New Jersey
Posts: 44,849
In one of the Little House books, Laura Ingalls Wilder described her father being in a minstrel show.

I kept waiting for Michael Landon to pull it off on the TV show, but it never happened.
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