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#1
Old 02-04-2012, 06:40 PM
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Jesus loves me, this I know. Does the Bible tell me so?

I am not particularly familiar with the Bible, especially the New Testament, as I had a mostly secular upbringing.

Does the Bible actually say that Jesus loves us - in those exact words? Is this actually given as the reason why he sacrificed himself so that people could be freed from sin? If so, in what verse(s) does it appear?
#2
Old 02-04-2012, 06:51 PM
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ever heard of that thing they call football and seen the john 3:16 deal?
#3
Old 02-04-2012, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
OK, so God loves us. It still doesn't answer my question as to whether Jesus also loves us.
#4
Old 02-04-2012, 07:00 PM
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well, you're getting into a semantical realm. according to trinitarians, God, the holy spirit and Jesus are all one and the same, so "god" is jesus and jesus is god and so on and so forth.

as for any quotes from the bible that where jesus says he loves you--no.

john 3:16 are as close as you're going to get.

this has some varying verses, but there's really nothing where jesus talks about his love for man. the system set up was: God loves us, so He came up with the passion play to save mankind, aka sacrificing Jesus. Jesus seems to love his Father--God--and did it all for Him (not us). get back into the "all three are the same" and it starts getting pretty existentially impossible to grasp on a wide scale rather quickly.

Last edited by dontbesojumpy; 02-04-2012 at 07:02 PM.
#5
Old 02-04-2012, 07:33 PM
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OK, thanks. I did know about the trinitarian concept but I was mainly curious as to whether the Bible directly stated that Jesus loves us. That pretty much answers my question.
#6
Old 02-04-2012, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy View Post
well, you're getting into a semantical realm. according to trinitarians, God, the holy spirit and Jesus are all one and the same, so "god" is jesus and jesus is god and so on and so forth.
I think saying Jesus and God are the same and thus if God loves you, Jesus loves you, is the semantic twisty-tie. I too find it curious that it never says Jesus loves you.
#7
Old 02-04-2012, 08:16 PM
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I didn't check that link but what about Luke 23:34?

Quote:
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing." And the soldiers gambled for his clothes by throwing dice.
So here we have Jesus defending humans.
#8
Old 02-04-2012, 08:19 PM
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I just imagined Jesus busking on a street corner, singing "I'm My Own Grandpa."
#9
Old 02-04-2012, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by coffeecat View Post
I just imagined Jesus busking on a street corner, singing "I'm My Own Grandpa."

Or looking into to the mirror and saying "damn that is one hot god"!
#10
Old 02-04-2012, 08:35 PM
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Jesus, to his disciples:
Quote:
Originally Posted by John 13:34
ďA new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."
Paul, in his epistles, makes reference to the "love of Christ." Examples:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans 8:35-39
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:
ďFor your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.Ē

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians 3:17-18
And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lordís holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians 5:1-2
Follow Godís example, therefore, as dearly loved children and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
#11
Old 02-04-2012, 09:04 PM
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Ephesians 5:2 says that Jesus loved "us".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians 5:1-2
Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
To me that pretty clearly gets at what you're after. If you want some other verses though, Galatians 2:20 expresses a similar sentiment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God. who loved me and gave himself for me.
I suppose you could argue that technically that passage only says that Jesus loved the author himself (Paul the Apostle), not necessarily everyone. But I don't think it's much of a stretch to interpret that as meaning that Jesus loves everyone who "lives by faith" in him. Romans 5:8 comes pretty close to what you're after as well:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans 5:8
...but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
That says that God loves us, not necessarily Jesus, but it answers your question about whether the Bible explicitly states that the reason Jesus died was for our sins and because of God's love. Similarly Ephesians 2:4:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians 2:4
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved (Ephesians 2:4-5).
Ephesians 3:19 is close too:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians 3:19
May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.
Since that was addressed to the Ephesians it seems to make it clear that everyone can experience the love of Christ, not just the disciples (although I guess it also suggests that Christ doesn't automatically love everyone, and that it has to be earned).

Last edited by isaiahrobinson; 02-04-2012 at 09:05 PM.
#12
Old 02-04-2012, 09:13 PM
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Thank you! This is great. It sounds like yes, the children's song is accurate.
#13
Old 02-05-2012, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Anaamika View Post
I think saying Jesus and God are the same and thus if God loves you, Jesus loves you, is the semantic twisty-tie. I too find it curious that it never says Jesus loves you.
The standard (Catholic, Orthodox, and most Protestants) interpretation of John 1:1 is that it is saying that Jesus IS God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John
[In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
So, it becomes a matter of logic. For another example:

Premise 1: Obama is black.
Premise 2: Obama is the President of the US.
Conclusion: The President of the US is black. QED.
#14
Old 02-06-2012, 06:52 AM
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so it should be "jesus loves me, this i know, for the bible indirectly and obfuscatedly tells me so??"

i find it curious that all the "as christ loved you..." stuff comes after-the-fact, not from him in his teaching and proselytizing, but much later by his disciples. "hey, that dude LOVED you."

all of this cane from people who sought to establish christianity as a...thing.

it was some time after christ's death that he was deified. you know. like 300 years, the council of nicaea and all that--so before that he was not "God," at least not by consensus.

it's curious there's no direct quotes from jesus about how much he loved all of mankind. granted, he did kind things that portrayed him as loving and compassionate and all that, but the bible is less than explicit.

considering early christians didn't view jesus as one-in-the-same as God, i find it hard to interpret all the "God loves you" stuff as meaning JESUS loved you. these are applied attributions.
#15
Old 02-06-2012, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_columbia View Post
The standard (Catholic, Orthodox, and most Protestants) interpretation of John 1:1 is that it is saying that Jesus IS God.



So, it becomes a matter of logic. For another example:

Premise 1: Obama is black.
Premise 2: Obama is the President of the US.
Conclusion: The President of the US is black. QED.
Yeah, but the black president didn't get with himself and become his own son.

I don't know what that is, but it sure ain't logic.

Last edited by Reply; 02-06-2012 at 07:14 AM.
#16
Old 02-06-2012, 08:05 AM
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Also

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt 23
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]”
Which shows a parental love towards rebellious children.
#17
Old 02-06-2012, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanicbird View Post
Also



Which shows a parental love towards rebellious children.
Sounds to me that he wanted to get the flock out of there.
#18
Old 02-06-2012, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Reply View Post
Yeah, but the black president didn't get with himself and become his own son.
Do you have some kind of long form birth certificate to prove that he isn't his own father? I haven't seen one.
#19
Old 02-06-2012, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy View Post
so it should be "jesus loves me, this i know, for the bible indirectly and obfuscatedly tells me so??"

i find it curious that all the "as christ loved you..." stuff comes after-the-fact, not from him in his teaching and proselytizing, but much later by his disciples. "hey, that dude LOVED you."

all of this cane from people who sought to establish christianity as a...thing.

it was some time after christ's death that he was deified. you know. like 300 years, the council of nicaea and all that--so before that he was not "God," at least not by consensus.

it's curious there's no direct quotes from jesus about how much he loved all of mankind. granted, he did kind things that portrayed him as loving and compassionate and all that, but the bible is less than explicit.

considering early christians didn't view jesus as one-in-the-same as God, i find it hard to interpret all the "God loves you" stuff as meaning JESUS loved you. these are applied attributions.
Have you read the Gospels? They clearly spell out his own claims of divinity in his life time.

The question was ''Does the Bible tell me so?''. While you may question the Bible, honesty compels the the answer to be yes. Your alleged events 300 years later are irrelevant to that question to what the Bible says as are discussions about when and who wrote it.

Are you leaving Paul out as an early Christian? Peter? John? They clearly regarded Jesus as the son of God.
#20
Old 02-06-2012, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by thelabdude View Post
Have you read the Gospels? They clearly spell out his own claims of divinity in his life time.

The question was ''Does the Bible tell me so?''. While you may question the Bible, honesty compels the the answer to be yes. Your alleged events 300 years later are irrelevant to that question to what the Bible says as are discussions about when and who wrote it.

Are you leaving Paul out as an early Christian? Peter? John? They clearly regarded Jesus as the son of God.
no i've never read the gospels. i only grew up in church and my father and brother were both ministers but i'm totally unfamiliar with the bible.

are you familiar with the actual history of the new testament...? the council of Jerusalem and the council of Nicaea? i think it's totally relevant that there was no consensus on christ's divinity until some 300 years after he died.

yes, he claimed to be the one true prophet of God. so did muhammed, john smith, david corresh, and all these people.

i dont think a claim means anything--nor does a third-party asserting your claim. self insistence does not make things true...and we can stop that debate here because christianity is faith-based, not facts-are-facts based.

that's not the point, tho.

if you look up the history of the song, it is based not on the convoluted scriptures provided, but rather on john 3:16, exclusively.

that's the genesis of the "jesus loves me" song. not the other verses, which are as i pointed out, rather convoluted. the biggest thing about the bible is you and every other american are interpretting things from an interpretation that even in the purest form was an interpretation of many individual men. there's a LOT of faith being scattered about across a lot of men you've never met.

when you ask a christian "how do you know christ loves us?" the reply is not, "because he told some dudes to love each other as he loved them." it's not because "he wrote a letter to the ephesians that is applicable to, you know, all of us even tho it wasn't for us..."
no. it's never this stuff.

it's "because he chose to die on the cross for your sins."
that's the cited reason.
but there's a rebuttal to that: he asked God (who is the same person--so essentially christ created himself, decided himself to die, decided he didn't want to die, asked himself not to die...and asked himself why he had forsaken...himself...??) he flat out asked god to "take this cup from [him]." so, for clarity: jesus tried to worm out, if at all possible. is that undying love? that's about how much i'd be willing to die for someone else--"if at all possible, can i not?!" and i'm a TERRIBLE human being. just the worst.

i'm, again, not saying jesus didn't love mankind. i'm saying the Jesus Loves Me song is based on john 3:16 and based on him giving himself to die. both of which are kind of confusing if you really think about it too much.

Last edited by dontbesojumpy; 02-06-2012 at 11:00 PM.
#21
Old 02-06-2012, 11:36 PM
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i'd like to further clarify my point, as i feel like something's been lost.

the op brings up this very succinct song with a very succinct point: jesus loves you. how do you know? because: the bible says it.

ok. where in the bible does it say it?

succinctly, john 3:16. but that's not exactly what the song says.

ok, then (insert any amount of indirect and absolutely not succinct verses).

i see why one might be confused--but that's the point of christianity. it's a Ragu-sauce of answers: "oh it's in the bible."

but you practically have to be a theology major with a great many books and translations to make total sense of things.

i still maintain: jesus loves me, this i know, but the bible doesn't succinctly say that--you have to kind of infer it based on a lot of scriptural interpretations and the over-all pillar of christianity which is that Jesus loved mankind enough to die.

you can stop there, and that's a fair answer. but if you actually study things, get yourself a dake's commentary and a mechanical translation of the bible (not some NIV/king james mumbo jumbo) and actually dig in this stuff, you end up with more questions than answers.

so i think the answer the op's question is "john 3:16 is the basis of the song, but keep in mind it was written by some lady in the 1800s and is just a nursery rhyme for christians."
it's not some edict of truth from God's Holy Mouth. it's just a song some lady wrote not very long ago...

the be-all-end-all answer to God's love is that He sent jesus to die. and to believe all that is what it is, you first have to have faith.
#22
Old 02-07-2012, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy View Post
are you familiar with the actual history of the new testament...? the council of Jerusalem and the council of Nicaea? i think it's totally relevant that there was no consensus on christ's divinity until some 300 years after he died.
What does any of your post have to do with what the bible actually says? that was the question. Attacks on the authority of the Bible don't belong in GQ.

Last edited by thelabdude; 02-07-2012 at 08:45 AM.
#23
Old 02-07-2012, 08:59 AM
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don'tbesojumpy, I'm not sure what your problem is. The OP asked where in the Bible does it say Jesus loves us, and several posters provided numerous direct and indirect references to Jesus' love for the world in the Bible. If you postulate that Jesus=God, which almost all Christians do (and did before 300 CE*), there are many, many more verses that talk directly about God's love for the world. Why do you insist the song has to be based on John 3:16? Which in any case clearly says "God so loved the world"?

*The Nicene creed was codified at the Council of Nicea, but Trinitarianism goes way back to the earliest church fathers and threads of it are found all over the New Testament. To claim that the church came up with Jesus' divinity in the fourth century demonstrates an ignorance of the earliest church.
#24
Old 02-07-2012, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric Warrior View Post
Thank you! This is great. It sounds like yes, the children's song is accurate.
Maybe, although my takeaway would be that it's surprisingly difficult to find a passage in the Bible that clearly states that Jesus loves humankind. He certainly never seems to say it himself.
#25
Old 02-07-2012, 09:49 PM
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Walk the walk. The Gospels present Jesus doing one loving, compassionate act after another. No he didn't say ''I love you'' before ''Take up your bed and walk.''
#26
Old 02-08-2012, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by thelabdude View Post
What does any of your post have to do with what the bible actually says? that was the question. Attacks on the authority of the Bible don't belong in GQ.
nothing? which is why i said "but that's not the point, tho."

you can't isolate part of a post like that just to make a point, because you don't have one.
#27
Old 02-08-2012, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Skammer View Post
don'tbesojumpy, I'm not sure what your problem is. The OP asked where in the Bible does it say Jesus loves us, and several posters provided numerous direct and indirect references to Jesus' love for the world in the Bible. If you postulate that Jesus=God, which almost all Christians do (and did before 300 CE*), there are many, many more verses that talk directly about God's love for the world. Why do you insist the song has to be based on John 3:16? Which in any case clearly says "God so loved the world"?

*The Nicene creed was codified at the Council of Nicea, but Trinitarianism goes way back to the earliest church fathers and threads of it are found all over the New Testament. To claim that the church came up with Jesus' divinity in the fourth century demonstrates an ignorance of the earliest church.
if you go back up to the top of the thread, i posted John 3:16, but the OP was unsatisfied because he wanted something that said "for JESUS so loved the world..." which doesn't exist.


that's my point. it doesn't exist in succinct, explicit terms as the silly little song claims other than John 3:16. there is no verse in the bible that says "for Jesus loved all mankind and wanted to come die." instead, you have only GOD loved man so much that he sent a rather unwilling Jesus to die, unhappily.

why does the song have to be based on john 3:16? It doesn't HAVE to be. but it IS. because the author drew from that verse when writing the song. it simply is the verse she based it on. look up your hymn history...
you can falsely attribute whatever obscure other verses you want to in order to give it more credence, but that doesn't change the basis of where she was coming from.
at any rate, it's an oversimplification for children.
why are you so vehement about defending it? it's a massively overstated oversimplification.

addressing your*: this is irrelevant to the topic at hand and i regret bringing it up because it's a sort of high-jack, but no one ever said NO ONE believed Christ was the son of God before Nicaea. it was just established as a standard there as most early churches quarreled on the semantics before this.
Quote:
The council did not create the doctrine of the deity of Christ (as is sometimes claimed) but it did settle to some degree the debate within the Early Christian communities regarding the divinity of Christ. This idea of the divinity of Christ along with the idea of Christ as a messenger from the one God ("The Father") had long existed in various parts of the Roman empire. The divinity of Christ had also been widely endorsed by the Christian community in the otherwise pagan city of Rome.[9] The council affirmed and defined what it believed to be the teachings of the Apostles regarding who Christ is: that Christ is the one true God in deity with the Father
the only reason i brought it up is clear; go back to the front of the thread. "does the bible say that, explicitly?" answer: yes, john 3:16. "but that's GOD, not JESUS." 'yeah well you have to buy in to the concept they are the same thing first. once you do, the bible clearly says "jesus (god) loves you.'

which starts getting semantically convoluted the more you dig into it, esp if you're not already a christian.

**salt and pepper more obscure, indirect Jesus loves so-and-so which i guess means "me too" verses. **

all I've been trying to say is i can see why the OP would be confused because the song is succinct in it's pronouncement but the verse it's based on causes non-Christians a bit of confusion. heck, it causes Unitarians confusion as well.

so. to kick a dead horse: bible says "God loves you," succinctly and explicitly. Bible does not any place say "Jesus loves you," not succinctly and no explicitly.
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Old 02-08-2012, 01:43 AM
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^keep in mind i'm not saying that if the song's not true then clearly jesus doesn't love us.

i just think it was massively over-simplified. so it should "jesus loves me, this i know, for the bible tells me so--but you gotta read all of it and buy into the concepts there-in and ultimately you'll see what i'm trying to say..."
#29
Old 02-08-2012, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaiahrobinson View Post
Maybe, although my takeaway would be that it's surprisingly difficult to find a passage in the Bible that clearly states that Jesus loves humankind. He certainly never seems to say it himself.
exactly.
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Old 02-08-2012, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy View Post
because the author drew from that verse when writing the song. it simply is the verse she based it on. look up your hymn history...
This is the second time you've invited us to look it up. Can you provide a cite?
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Old 02-08-2012, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy View Post
if you go back up to the top of the thread, i posted John 3:16, but the OP was unsatisfied because he wanted something that said "for JESUS so loved the world..." which doesn't exist.

How about John 15:9?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus
As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you.
#32
Old 02-08-2012, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Crotalus View Post
How about John 15:9?
To whom was he speaking?
#33
Old 02-08-2012, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by psychonaut View Post
To whom was he speaking?
To his disciples.
#34
Old 02-08-2012, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Crotalus View Post
To his disciples.
...so not "us."
#35
Old 02-08-2012, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Thudlow Boink View Post
This is the second time you've invited us to look it up. Can you provide a cite?
i have some much better hymnal history books in my father's library but i have no access to them at the moment. however, this:

Quote:
Jesus Loves Me - The History
This popular song has been loved among children and adults alike since it was written in 1860. Anna B. Warner wrote the original version and later David Rutherford McGuire added stanzas two and three. Anna’s sister Susan had asked her to write a song for a Sunday School teacher who wanted to cheer a dying boy. No wonder the lyrics have brought a smile to many children and assurance to adults! The song first appeared in a novel, Say and Seal. In 1862, William B. Bradbury composed the music and added the refrain. The following are the rich lyrics to the song, “Jesus Loves Me.”

Jesus Loves Me - The Lyrics
“Jesus loves me! This I know,
For the Bible tells me so.
Little ones to Him belong;
They are weak, but He is strong.

Refrain:

“Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so.

“Jesus loves me! This I know,
As He loved so long ago,
Taking children on His knee,
Saying, ‘Let them come to Me.’

Repeat Refrain

“Jesus loves me still today,
Walking with me on my way,
Wanting as a friend to give
Light and love to all who live.

Repeat Refrain

“Jesus loves me! He who died
Heaven’s gate to open wide;
He will wash away my sin,
Let His little child come in.

Repeat Refrain

“Jesus loves me! He will stay
Close beside me all the way;
Thou hast bled and died for me,
I will henceforth live for Thee.

Repeat Refrain

(Note: this next stanza from the original is commonly omitted in hymnals)

“Jesus loves me! Loves me still,
Though I’m very weak and ill,
That I might from sin be free
Bled and died upon the tree.”

Jesus Loves Me - Sound Biblical Theology
The song “Jesus Loves Me” claims Christ’s devotion to me, but how can that be true? As a sinner, wouldn’t the holy God despise me? Thankfully, the song is not hopeful delusion but rather sound, biblical theology. While God hated my sin, His love for me compelled Him to give up His beloved Son. Jesus, God the Son, loved us so much He died a terrible death to pay the just penalty for our sins (John 3:16).
and here's a few silly tid-bits:

from a site that outlines children's (i.e. simplified) bible lessons, they say,

Quote:
Jesus Loves Me Bible Verse:

(John 3:16) For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever
believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life
and that's the one.
the only one.
the lesson is to teach the song then show the children in the bible where it says jesus loves them. and that's the cite.

the Psalter Hymn book touches on the oversimplification and criticism there-of:

Quote:
Both Anna and Susan Warner's writings are marked by what some judge to be "undistinguished religious sentimentality." But those who are critical of the text's simplicity may do well to remember what the great theologian Karl Barth once said when asked about his most profound theological discovery:

Jesus loves me, this I know,
for the Bible tells me so.
but i will say i found a few scripture cites that actually do touch more on the message of the song:
Eph. 5:2, Jer.31:3, Gal. 2:20

that get us a little closer to the sentiment of the song...a little? yeah?

Last edited by dontbesojumpy; 02-08-2012 at 07:01 PM.
#36
Old 02-08-2012, 07:09 PM
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The concept of separation of church and state is not explicitly described in The US Constitution, but has been derived from several oblique references and upheld by the courts.

The concept that "Jesus Loves Me" is not explicitly stated in The Bible, but has been derived from the various writings therein, and not opposed by theologians.
#37
Old 02-09-2012, 09:32 PM
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John 15:9

"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you."

I have been saved and babtized for just under a year. The greatest experience of my life is Christ. I was reading this link earlier today and this evening while reading my daily 2 chapters of the Old Testament and then 2 chapters of the New I found this. John chapter 14 was exactly where I finished my previous reading. Jesus does love us.
#38
Old 02-09-2012, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by posskb View Post
John 15:9

"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you."
Technically Jesus is talking specifically to his disciples in this passage, not about mankind in general. In fact the next few verses make it clear not only that he is restricting this advice to the disciples, but he actually goes on a mini-rant about how "the rest of the world" is not part of the group he loves:

Quote:
"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit ...

If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. ...

If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me hates my Father as well."
#39
Old 02-10-2012, 12:49 AM
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"Technically Jesus is talking specifically to his disciples in this passage, not about mankind in general. In fact the next few verses make it clear not only that he is restricting this advice to the disciples, but he actually goes on a mini-rant about how "the rest of the world" is not part of the group he loves:


Quote:
"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit ...

If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. ...

If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me hates my Father as well." "

I am a babe in Christ having only studied the bible this past year but I believe Jesus is talking to all his eventual followers as well as the disciples. He knows this will be in the bible. If you believe that Jesus died on the cross to forgive your sins and that he rose back to life after three days and then ascended to Heaven to become the right hand of God, and you love him with all your heart, and you love mankind then you will be loved by him.
#40
Old 02-10-2012, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by thelabdude View Post
Have you read the Gospels? They clearly spell out his own claims of divinity in his life time.

The question was ''Does the Bible tell me so?''. While you may question the Bible, honesty compels the the answer to be yes. Your alleged events 300 years later are irrelevant to that question to what the Bible says as are discussions about when and who wrote it.

Are you leaving Paul out as an early Christian? Peter? John? They clearly regarded Jesus as the son of God.
According to the Psalmist all are gods(Psalm 82 in KJV). Jesus backs this up when accused of Blasphemy when he said," It says in your law, I said you are gods, so why do you accuse me of blasphemy when I call God my father, when your father's did?"(John !0) To me that is Jesus not proclaiming to be anymore Divine than any one he was speaking to. Jesus is also quoted as telling a woman whio asked him for help, that he only came for the house of Israel.
#41
Old 02-10-2012, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by thelabdude View Post
Have you read the Gospels? They clearly spell out his own claims of divinity in his life time.
Actually there is nowhere in Matthew, Mark or Luke where Jesus claims to be divine or calls himself the "son of God" (he always uses "son of man" instead). It's only in John, which was written later, where he starts to claim his own divinity and call himself the Son of God. Later in the New Testament the authors of the other chapters do call him divine as well. But like with the OP's original question, I find it intriguing how it's so difficult to find any passage from the original three Gospels where Jesus claims to be divine or the son of God, when most people would assume that he does it constantly.
#42
Old 02-10-2012, 08:02 AM
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There's admittedly a couple of points where Jesus is called the Son of God in those Gospels by other people: in Luke 1:35 the angel says to Mary that the "Son of God" will be born to her, and in both Matthew 17:5 and Luke 3:22 God says of Jesus during the transfiguration story, "this is my son, with whom I am well pleased". But there's not a lot of those references, and as far as I'm aware Jesus never calls himself divine in any of those three Gospels; in fact he specifically declines to do so when Pilate asks him if he is the, calling himself the "son of man" instead.
#43
Old 02-10-2012, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by isaiahrobinson View Post
Actually there is nowhere in Matthew, Mark or Luke where Jesus claims to be divine or calls himself the "son of God" (he always uses "son of man" instead). It's only in John, which was written later, where he starts to claim his own divinity and call himself the Son of God. Later in the New Testament the authors of the other chapters do call him divine as well.
What Jesus claimed about himself, and what those claims meant, might be an interesting discussion, but it probably doesn't belong here in this GQ thread; it's certainly something that could be and has been debated. The phrase "Son of God" certainly appears in the first three gospels, but you're right that Jesus doesn't use it of himself (which makes me wonder why the gospel writers used the phrase about Jesus but didn't report Jesus himself using it).

FWIW, the gospels were written later than the earliest of the epistles, so it's potentially misleading to talk about what happens "later in the New Testament."
#44
Old 02-10-2012, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by psychonaut View Post
To whom was he speaking?
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Originally Posted by Crotalus View Post
To his disciples.
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Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy View Post
...so not "us."
It depends. I and other Christians consider ourselves disciples of Jesus, so I would say He was speaking to us. Admittedly, though, this was not addressed to those who are not disciples then or now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaiahrobinson View Post
In fact the next few verses make it clear not only that he is restricting this advice to the disciples, but he actually goes on a mini-rant about how "the rest of the world" is not part of the group he loves:
No. He talks about how the world hates him and his Father, but he does not imply that he does not love the world in spite of their hate for him. Romans 5:8 - "God demonstrates his own love for us in this: that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

By the way, jumpy, thank you for the history lesson on that hymn. I love hearing about where different hymns come from. But I think it's clear that the idea that Jesus loves me (all of us) is derived from the entire canon of the Bible and not just based on a single verse, even if that verse comes closest to saying it explicitly, especially since "Jesus is God" is one of the oldest creeds of the church.
#45
Old 02-10-2012, 09:59 AM
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nm

Last edited by Spoke; 02-10-2012 at 10:00 AM.
#46
Old 02-11-2012, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Skammer View Post
By the way, jumpy, thank you for the history lesson on that hymn. I love hearing about where different hymns come from. But I think it's clear that the idea that Jesus loves me (all of us) is derived from the entire canon of the Bible and not just based on a single verse, even if that verse comes closest to saying it explicitly, especially since "Jesus is God" is one of the oldest creeds of the church.
i find it interesting, too. Jesus Loves me started out as a poem for a dying boy.
a lot of the verses pertain to that (illness/sickness) and have largely been omitted in modern iterations.

the thing i find most interesting is that rooting on the net yields a lot of different answers on the scriptural basis. the ones at the end of my last post--Galatians, Jeremiah and Ephesians seem to be the more spot-on.

but i have found Psalms 100 cited as the one-and-only scriptural basis, as well as Psalms 127:3.

with the exception of Ephesians, i think it's a little peculiar the most dead-accurate quotes are from the old testament...
it's all pre-jesus stuff.

i really struggle with what has been lost in translation and the backwards redaction of the initial compilers. agreed, it gets into debate pretty quickly, but none-the-less it's fascinating to me.

btw, this isn't the first time this questions has been posited on the net, and no one else really has a very clear answer, either.
#47
Old 02-11-2012, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Skammer View Post
It depends. I and other Christians consider ourselves disciples of Jesus, so I would say He was speaking to us. Admittedly, though, this was not addressed to those who are not disciples then or now.

No. He talks about how the world hates him and his Father, but he does not imply that he does not love the world in spite of their hate for him. Romans 5:8 - "God demonstrates his own love for us in this: that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

By the way, jumpy, thank you for the history lesson on that hymn. I love hearing about where different hymns come from. But I think it's clear that the idea that Jesus loves me (all of us) is derived from the entire canon of the Bible and not just based on a single verse, even if that verse comes closest to saying it explicitly, especially since "Jesus is God" is one of the oldest creeds of the church.
And Jesus uses the Psalmist saying, " I said you are gods and sons of the most high" Jesus didn't dispute this, but seemed to agree. Perhaps the word God, meant something different then than it does now, It could mean like in the Egyptian sense when the Pharoh's used it to proclaim thenselves God to just mean a person of power?
#48
Old 02-11-2012, 11:20 AM
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Whether you believe it or not is beyond the point, but according to the Gospels, Jesus was blameless and gave his life up in a very painful way as a sacrifice that would appease God for the sin of ALL humanity. That's a lot of sin to lay on one person. It's clearly stating that Jesus, who was stated to be God himself, did it because he loved us, even if it doesn't use the words "I love you". It also makes the case that Jesus performed miracles not to show off his powers, but out of compassion. Jesus also saw past the frustrating limitations of his disciples understanding of what he was trying to teach them.
#49
Old 02-11-2012, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by C. Montgomery Burns View Post
Whether you believe it or not is beyond the point, but according to the Gospels ... It's clearly stating that Jesus, who was stated to be God himself, did it because he loved us, even if it doesn't use the words "I love you".
Does it? Where? It seems like we've established fairly thoroughly in this thread that in the Gospels alone it's impossible to find a quote that "clearly states" that Jesus loved us, and it's not even as simple as you'd imagine to find quotes calling Jesus the son of God in the Gospels.
#50
Old 02-11-2012, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by isaiahrobinson View Post
Does it? Where? It seems like we've established fairly thoroughly in this thread that in the Gospels alone it's impossible to find a quote that "clearly states" that Jesus loved us, and it's not even as simple as you'd imagine to find quotes calling Jesus the son of God in the Gospels.
Really little point in providing more cites to somebody that pretends there haven't been many already.
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