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#1
Old 04-06-2012, 07:32 PM
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Oven plugs are different?

After two years without an oven, I finally got a "new" one. A friend was re-doing her kitchen and decided to change to a gas stove, so gave me her four-year-old electrical one.

Today I confidently checked the plugs, and they were both the really big three-prong kind (just like on the dryer) so I hauled the old oven to the dump and set up to plug in the new one. . .

Only the plugs are different. The old one had three very large straight prongs, and the new one has two straight prongs and one that has a weird bend to the left. (And that's the one that actually matches the dryer.)

So, my question is, are these things equivalent as far as the service is concerned? Is it just a matter of old/new plug style, and I can safely just switch out the outlet? Or should this be telling me that the line is not compatible with the new oven in some way?

Frackitty, frack, frack, FRACK!!!!
#2
Old 04-06-2012, 07:36 PM
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Existing outlet

New plug looks like it would fit this
#3
Old 04-06-2012, 07:46 PM
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The oven has a 30 amp cord. You have a 50 amp outlet. Put a 50 amp cord on the oven.

ETA: your outlet is a NEMA 10-50 receptacle. Your oven has a NEMA 10-30 plug. You can safely fit a cord with a 10-50 plug on your range.

Last edited by jz78817; 04-06-2012 at 07:50 PM.
#4
Old 04-06-2012, 07:49 PM
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Sorry I can't be of more help, on a mobile and little time.

Check here, non locking connectors
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector

nema10?

The difference may be the grounding technique of the new stove, ground may not be the body of the stove as in the older one.

Also, it may be an amperage issue.

eta: ninjad, by *that* much

Last edited by eldowan; 04-06-2012 at 07:50 PM.
#5
Old 04-06-2012, 07:54 PM
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I wouldn't change the outlet.

Its better to get the cord changed on the oven. My new dryer came with two cords and I used the one that matched my outlet.

Any appliance parts place would have oven cords. Get a repairman to change it if you are unsure about doing it yourself.

Range cords are about $7 to $15
http://google.com/search?q=range...w=1283&bih=765

Last edited by aceplace57; 04-06-2012 at 07:59 PM.
#6
Old 04-06-2012, 07:55 PM
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Here are the NEMA plugs/outlets. The angled one is 30 amps. The other one in your picture is 50 amps. But the 50 amp and 20 amp plugs in the link look alike (about half way down the page).

For the others already answering, is there some way to tell them apart? Different blade widths maybe? OP should check the breaker for the outlet, to verify what amps they are for.

Last edited by ZenBeam; 04-06-2012 at 07:56 PM.
#7
Old 04-06-2012, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenBeam View Post
Here are the NEMA plugs/outlets. The angled one is 30 amps. The other one in your picture is 50 amps. But the 50 amp and 20 amp plugs in the link look alike (about half way down the page).

For the others already answering, is there some way to tell them apart? Different blade widths maybe? OP should check the breaker for the outlet, to verify what amps they are for.
The 10-20 is much smaller. No way you could confuse the two when looking at actual hardware.
#8
Old 04-06-2012, 08:13 PM
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If the oven has a 30 amp cord then its fine to use a 50 amp cord to match the 50 amp receptacle.

However, you don't want to put a 30 amp cord on a range that requires 50 amps. Trying to match a 30 amp receptacle. You'll pop the breaker every time you turn on the oven or broiler. A situation like this would require hiring an electrician to run a 50 amp line into the kitchen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jz78817 View Post
The oven has a 30 amp cord. You have a 50 amp outlet. Put a 50 amp cord on the oven.

ETA: your outlet is a NEMA 10-50 receptacle. Your oven has a NEMA 10-30 plug. You can safely fit a cord with a 10-50 plug on your range.

Last edited by aceplace57; 04-06-2012 at 08:16 PM.
#9
Old 04-06-2012, 09:38 PM
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Thanks everybody! So this looks fairly straightforward; with the possible exception of instruction 6. Is there any way to get the cord wrong way round?

Ground is in the middle, hot on the outside - so far I'm clear. But does it matter which prong goes on the positive and which on the negative? If so, how do I tell if I've got the cord right way up when I connect it? I'm accustomed to the wires being different colors, but this all the same plain grey. The center (ground) wire is smooth/printed on one side and seamed/textured on the other. It's set smooth/printed side up. Is this a standard? Or does it not really matter?

Will my oven clock run backwards if I get it wrong? LOL!
#10
Old 04-06-2012, 09:52 PM
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the two outside wires are the hot wires and they are the same as each other. you want the terminals on the wire ends to have the flat side of the terminal towards the stove, the side with the wire towards the back.

look carefully at how the old one is attached and you want to do similar with the new.
#11
Old 04-07-2012, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TruCelt View Post
Thanks everybody! So this looks fairly straightforward; with the possible exception of instruction 6. Is there any way to get the cord wrong way round?

Ground is in the middle, hot on the outside - so far I'm clear. But does it matter which prong goes on the positive and which on the negative? If so, how do I tell if I've got the cord right way up when I connect it? I'm accustomed to the wires being different colors, but this all the same plain grey. The center (ground) wire is smooth/printed on one side and seamed/textured on the other. It's set smooth/printed side up. Is this a standard? Or does it not really matter?

Will my oven clock run backwards if I get it wrong? LOL!
Itis AC power there is no possitive or negitive. No you clock will not run backwards.
#12
Old 04-07-2012, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snnipe 70E View Post
Itis AC power there is no possitive or negitive. No you clock will not run backwards.
Wow. So here I thought I understood this basic concept, but clearly I didn't. I know all about the controversy, and Edison v Tesla, and poor Topsy the elephant. . . but I didn't realize that alternating meant "from positive to negative" as opposed to "on, off, on, off." All this time I thought those two prongs were + and - just like the terminals on my car battery, except they cycled on and off at a pace too fast for me to fathom.

Ignorance fought. This is what I love about The Dope. I am constantly confronted with my ignorance, then - almost simultaneously - it is defeated.

And thanks again everybody! I'm off to ACE hardware as soon as it opens.
#13
Old 04-07-2012, 10:04 AM
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Briefly, in your normal 110 volt outlet, the neutral is close to zero always, and the hot varies smoothly between positive and negative. In your 220 Volt plug, you have no neutral, but two hots both varying between positive and negative, with one always positive when the other is negative, and vice versa.

The neutral carries current, so it won't be at precisely zero, so a ground wire is now included which doesn't carry current, and is at zero.
#14
Old 04-07-2012, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenBeam View Post
The neutral carries current, so it won't be at precisely zero, so a ground wire is now included which doesn't carry current, and is at zero.
That's only one of the reasons why we use a separate safety ground.

The other big one is what happens during different types of faults. Something like an oven has a metal case. If you don't connect it to anything (electrically) then if either hot wire shorts to the case, the case becomes hot and dangerous to touch. So it is better to ground the case. That way, if either hot wire shorts to the case it will just blow a fuse/breaker instead of becoming dangerous.

If you use the neutral as your ground connection though, you have two problems. The first, as ZenBeam said, is that if the neutral carries current it's not going to be at true ground potential, which is an admittedly small shock risk, but it's a risk. The second problem is what happens if the neutral breaks? Then, if you turn the oven on, the electricity has a path to the case (through the oven's electrical parts and the neutral connection to the case) but not back to ground, and the case becomes electrically hot and dangerous to touch. So again, with a single fault, you can have a dangerous situation.

So we instead run a separate ground wire as a safety ground. If the hot wire(s) touch the case, it trips the breaker. If the neutral breaks, the oven just stops working. If the ground wire breaks, nothing bad happens. In any single fault, the case doesn't become hot. It is therefore much safer, since it requires multiple faults before the case can become hot and dangerous (not impossible, but much less likely to occur).
#15
Old 04-07-2012, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
I wouldn't change the outlet.

Its better to get the cord changed on the oven.
Nah, better to change the oven to one with the right cord.

When I bought this house my friend left a lot of stuff in it. Stuff that was left in the house when he bought it. In the built-on storage trailer were a washing machine and a dryer. There was a washing machine in the laundry room, but my friend never moved the dryer in. I lived here a couple of years assuming the dryer didn't work, and would go to a nearby trailer park to dry my clothes. Eventually I manhandled the dryer out of its storage spot, through the passageway, and next to the washing machine.

It had a four-prong plug, and the outlet had three prongs. I called an electrician to replace the outlet. After looking at the 70-plus-year-old wiring, fusebox, and meter, he said I'd need to have a lot more work done. Call him when I tear down the trailer and build a garage.

I went to the hardware store and bought a cord with a three-prong plug and put it on the dryer myself for about ten bucks.
#16
Old 04-07-2012, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny L.A. View Post
It had a four-prong plug, and the outlet had three prongs. I called an electrician to replace the outlet. After looking at the 70-plus-year-old wiring, fusebox, and meter, he said I'd need to have a lot more work done. Call him when I tear down the trailer and build a garage.

I went to the hardware store and bought a cord with a three-prong plug and put it on the dryer myself for about ten bucks.
with 4 prongs the dryer had a hot-hot-neutral-ground.

with 3 holes the receptacle of that age was likely hot-hot-neutral.

what you did might have got the dryer to work. as engineer_comp_geek stated you are leaving yourself with a risk by eliminating the grounding connection. the electrician didn't suggest that option because it is not current safety standards.
#17
Old 04-07-2012, 11:45 AM
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This house was built in 1934. Nothing in it is up to current safety standards!
#18
Old 04-07-2012, 02:03 PM
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You can always add a ground, and you should. This is easy to do it you have a voltmeter(or buy a cheap one). Older plugs tend to be Hot-Hot-Neutral but if the face plate is metal it may be a ground, check this by using the voltmeter(be careful) set the VM on ac 200v put the red probe into one of the hots and touch the face plate with the black probe( actually reverse this always ground first) if you register 120v+/- you now have a ground, go to home depot or the like and buy GREEN jacketed wire of at least 10guage, look for the green screw of the ground symbol on the back of the dryer, run the wire between the plate and the dryer and attach using the ground screw and the plate screw(its easier with crimp on loop ends), check for ground again from dryer side screw to the hot, check it again and there you go. This is just an overview and if the plate is not grounded you have to find another place to ground to, just send me a message and I will go into gross detail good luck and be careful
#19
Old 04-07-2012, 02:25 PM
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if you have a grounding conductor running from the fuse box to the receptacle then you have a grounding connection. with the age of the installation it likely could have rigid conduit or 3 conductor nonmetallic cable (with no ground).

if the electrician found a grounding conductor then they would have installed a receptacle that could accept a 4 pronged plug.
#20
Old 04-07-2012, 06:15 PM
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Iiiiiit's working! ! !



Cookies for everyone!
#21
Old 04-07-2012, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by TruCelt View Post
Cookies for everyone!
hot dog. i mean hot cookies.
#22
Old 04-07-2012, 08:52 PM
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Is there any reason why even have a neutral wire with an electric stove? I know they generally run the clock and stuff off 120 volts, but couldn't they run that off 240 instead and save a substantial amount of copper by not needing a neutral? Maybe in the days of a shared neutral and ground they figured why not since it didn't add any wiring, but those days are over. Also a 240 volt stove could be more safely installed in existing 3 wire installations, with the neutra/ground serving as ground only.

Last edited by Mdcastle; 04-07-2012 at 08:54 PM.
#23
Old 04-07-2012, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdcastleman View Post
Is there any reason why even have a neutral wire with an electric stove? I know they generally run the clock and stuff off 120 volts, but couldn't they run that off 240 instead and save a substantial amount of copper by not needing a neutral? Maybe in the days of a shared neutral and ground they figured why not since it didn't add any wiring, but those days are over. Also a 240 volt stove could be more safely installed in existing 3 wire installations, with the neutra/ground serving as ground only.
No, because residences get split-single-phase power which includes neutral.
#24
Old 04-07-2012, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdcastleman
Is there any reason why even have a neutral wire with an electric stove? I know they generally run the clock and stuff off 120 volts, but couldn't they run that off 240 instead and save a substantial amount of copper by not needing a neutral?
The old ranges with seven or so pushbuttons per burner did some clever switching where the elements ran on 120 for low heat settings and 240 for high. IIRC, it was something like the small burner on 120 was low, the large burner on 120 was medium low, both on 120 was medium, and then the pattern repeats but on 240, ending with both on 240 as high.
#25
Old 11-13-2012, 04:57 PM
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So If I have an oven with a NEMA 10-50 Plug, can I rewire it and plug it into a NEMA L6-20?
#26
Old 11-13-2012, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by redlimit835 View Post
So If I have an oven with a NEMA 10-50 Plug, can I rewire it and plug it into a NEMA L6-20?
Are you sure it's an L6? Those are unusual in residences. In any case, you can't do this for two reasons:

1. The L6-20 receptacle is rated for 20 amps and your oven wants to draw a lot more current than that (up to 50 amps). You will trip the breaker and/or burn your house down.

2. The L6 series connectors don't have a neutral, although they do have a ground pin. The 10-50 connector is designed to ground the case via the neutral pin. That's not up to code and it isn't safe.
#27
Old 11-13-2012, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by friedo View Post
Are you sure it's an L6? Those are unusual in residences. In any case, you can't do this for two reasons:

1. The L6-20 receptacle is rated for 20 amps and your oven wants to draw a lot more current than that (up to 50 amps). You will trip the breaker and/or burn your house down.

2. The L6 series connectors don't have a neutral, although they do have a ground pin. The 10-50 connector is designed to ground the case via the neutral pin. That's not up to code and it isn't safe.
Im trying to wire the oven up in an industrial building. The outlets are either the L6-20 or a standard outlet. Im just trying to figure out how I can make it work.
#28
Old 11-13-2012, 05:22 PM
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The L6-20 in an industrial building makes more sense. (They're used for equipment running off two legs of a three-phase service, usually.)

The right thing to do is get a qualified electrician to look at it. If the wiring is already sufficient to carry 50 amps, then it's probably just a matter of changing out the breaker and receptacle. Otherwise it will require running some new wire. In either case, it's not a huge job. But high-current appliances are not something you want to mess around with. Get it done right or not at all, pretty please with sugar on top.
#29
Old 11-13-2012, 05:26 PM
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