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#1
Old 04-19-2012, 07:30 AM
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Is Carbon Monoxide flamable?

Before you answer with "Duh, of course it's not!", read my reasoning:
Burning something is really just reacting that thing with oxygen, causing an exothermic chain reaction.
CO2 is CO with an extra O atom.
I am presuming it must be possible to produce CO2 from CO and O2.
If I combine 2 parts CO and 1 part O2 and introduce a spark, will it ignite?
#2
Old 04-19-2012, 07:47 AM
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It is possible to create CO2 from CO +O2. Your car's catalytic converter does it every time you drive.
The reaction is not what I would consider self sustaining as it requires a catalyst and a very high temp to occur (>540F).
To the best of my knowledge the reaction is not exothermic.
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#3
Old 04-19-2012, 07:50 AM
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Yes carbon dioxide is flammable. Its EU hazard rating is "very flammable." It is flammable when it is between 12.5% and 74% of the gas mixture.

Source: http://iapa.ca/pdf/carbon_monoxide_feb2003.pdf
#4
Old 04-19-2012, 07:53 AM
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It's even a component of wood gas which was used as a substitute for gasoline during WW2.
#5
Old 04-19-2012, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
Yes carbon dioxide is flammable. Its EU hazard rating is "very flammable." It is flammable when it is between 12.5% and 74% of the gas mixture.

Source: http://iapa.ca/pdf/carbon_monoxide_feb2003.pdf
Umm what? Carbon dioxide is flammable? Why do they put it in fire extinguishers then?
Did you mean monoxide?
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Last edited by Rick; 04-19-2012 at 07:55 AM.
#6
Old 04-19-2012, 08:39 AM
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Yes CO is flammable and of course it's an exothermic reaction - ever heard of coal gas or town gas? It puts out about 320 Btu/scf, which is roughly 1/3 of natural gas. Entire cities used to use it for lighting and cooking and even home heating, and I have personally worked on projects where power plants have co-fired it with coal or some other fuel to produce power. The ASME PTC 4.1 lists CO production as an efficiency loss, meaning that it's carrying away useful energy by not completing the oxidation of C to CO2.

CO is even an explosion hazard, and you may not even need a spark. I have personally been to a site where a CO explosion killed a plant worker when he opened an inspection door at the wrong time and fresh air rushed in to combine with 400 F+ CO which had accidentally formed. I helped investigate the explosion incident and while it was possible a spark may have formed from static discharge, our investigation could not find any proof of that, and lab tests showed that it was likely a patch/hot spot of glowing unburned coal led to the explosion.
#7
Old 04-19-2012, 08:47 AM
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In addition to wood gas, producer gas is mostly CO. Prior to the rise in use of natural gas, most town gas supplies were created by destructive distillation of coal or various exothermic reactions involving coal or coke. Coal gas contains CO. Producer gas was the term used for the reaction that made lots of CO from coal. Water gas added steam to the process and yielded mixes including hydrogen and methane. Syngas is more advanced, and also yields CO in the mix. The town gas supply could in principle be made form a mix of sources, but was usually Syngas. Critically, the CO content of town gas was always significant. This is why people were able to commit suicide by sicking their head in an unlit gas oven. CO is not a great fuel, it is is after all essentially already half burnt. But it was easy to make, and as a gas, had all the advantages of easy distribution that makes gas so useful as a fuel.

Pah, ningaed,

Last edited by Francis Vaughan; 04-19-2012 at 08:48 AM.
#8
Old 04-19-2012, 09:00 AM
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So why does CO2 work as a fire retardant? Virtually every commercial fire extinguisher uses pressurized carbon dioxide as its main ingredient.
#9
Old 04-19-2012, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosier View Post
So why does CO2 work as a fire retardant? Virtually every commercial fire extinguisher uses pressurized carbon dioxide as its main ingredient.
Because while carbon monoxide is flammable, carbon dioxide is not.
#10
Old 04-19-2012, 09:06 AM
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And burning CO forms CO2.
#11
Old 04-19-2012, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
Yes carbon dioxide is flammable. Its EU hazard rating is "very flammable." It is flammable when it is between 12.5% and 74% of the gas mixture.

Source: http://iapa.ca/pdf/carbon_monoxide_feb2003.pdf
Bolding / Size by me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosier
So why does CO2 work as a fire retardant? Virtually every commercial fire extinguisher uses pressurized carbon dioxide as its main ingredient.
My guess is BigT meant to say Monoxide and just hasn't been back here to see his error. His link references a report which includes info on the flammability of Carbon Monoxide.
#12
Old 04-19-2012, 10:53 AM
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The next person who confuses CO and CO2 in this thread will be eaten by a Stegosaurus stenops. And yes, contrary to what the Bible tells us, they really are carnivores. And they're hungry.
#13
Old 04-19-2012, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis Vaughan View Post
In addition to wood gas, producer gas is mostly CO. Prior to the rise in use of natural gas, most town gas supplies were created by destructive distillation of coal or various exothermic reactions involving coal or coke. Coal gas contains CO. Producer gas was the term used for the reaction that made lots of CO from coal. Water gas added steam to the process and yielded mixes including hydrogen and methane. Syngas is more advanced, and also yields CO in the mix. The town gas supply could in principle be made form a mix of sources, but was usually Syngas. Critically, the CO content of town gas was always significant. This is why people were able to commit suicide by sicking their head in an unlit gas oven. CO is not a great fuel, it is is after all essentially already half burnt. But it was easy to make, and as a gas, had all the advantages of easy distribution that makes gas so useful as a fuel.

Pah, ningaed,
Note that when you distil coal you get some volatile combustible fractions just like you do with petroleum, and some heavier tarry fractions as well as the coke.

Water gas gives you methane and carbon monoxide, producer gas just CO and nitrogen (assuming you're blasting air), so producer gas is poor fuel but the reaction is exothermic, whereas the water gas reaction is seriously endothermic (but makes better fuel). So by periodically blasting air to make producer gas, you can heat the coke enough for another water-gas run, and so on.

CO can be seen burning in a charcoal or coke brazier - at the heart of the fire the glowing coals aren't getting enough air for complete combustion, so you get some blue gas-flames at the top where the rising CO reaches the fresh air and burns the rest of the way.
#14
Old 04-19-2012, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
The next person who confuses CO and CO2 in this thread will be eaten by a Stegosaurus stenops. And yes, contrary to what the Bible tells us, they really are carnivores. And they're hungry.
I think there is only one of that is possibly confused. The rest of us are commenting on post #3.
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#15
Old 04-19-2012, 12:34 PM
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Ah, but since CO burns to form CO2, is it self extinguishing?

<runs>
#16
Old 04-19-2012, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
I think there is only one of that is possibly confused. The rest of us are commenting on post #3.
Why do you tempt the stegosaurs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alka Seltzer
Ah, but since CO burns to form CO2, is it self extinguishing?
And you...do you know how many pounds of grade-A prime Doper a stegosaurus needs to eat each day? Because if you do, please tell me...
#17
Old 04-19-2012, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosier View Post
So why does CO2 work as a fire retardant?
Dihydrogen monoxide is also an excellent fire retardant, although extremely hazardous.
#18
Old 04-19-2012, 03:52 PM
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Stegosaurs are surprisingly docile after a delicious meal of doperflesh. Just don't try riding them; they're pointy.

As for CO self-extinguishing, I'm sure it's only flammable (or explosive) under certain mixtures and temperatures, but I imagine the limiting factor in most cases is going to be the fuel running out.

Oh and there are some sorts of fires you shouldn't put out with carbon dioxide (or water), but most of you probably don't do anything that requires a class D extinguisher.
#19
Old 04-19-2012, 05:16 PM
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Getting back to the OP, I recall that when I was a kid in Philly in the 40s, we used something called water gas which I thought was a mixture of CO and CH4 and was extremely poisonous. Then one day after the war, the gas company came around and changed the burners (or at least the aperture) on our stoves and after that we burned natural gas. Although there is a danger of explosion, at least it wasn't dangerous. I have wondered how the transition was handled. Some people in every neighborhood would be away for a day, whatever. How could they change everybody at the same time and what were the consequences of using natural gas with a stove tuned for water gas?
#20
Old 04-20-2012, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruken View Post
Oh and there are some sorts of fires you shouldn't put out with carbon dioxide (or water), but most of you probably don't do anything that requires a class D extinguisher.
This was a problem for the Windscale nuclear fire - the aircooled pile was ablaze, burning graphite, uranium and other metals (the pile was used to irradiate various isotopes and produce plutonium). They tried CO2, but the burning metals stripped O from the CO2 and kept burning. H2O was even more risky, as the O gets stripped out and you are left with H2, ready to boom. This didn't help, and so the operators sealed the air intakes and cooling vents to starve the fire, which succeeded.

Si
#21
Old 04-20-2012, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
The next person who confuses CO and CO2 in this thread will be eaten by a Stegosaurus stenops. And yes, contrary to what the Bible tells us, they really are carnivores. And they're hungry.
It wasn't my fault! Someone else said it first.
#22
Old 07-22-2013, 07:54 PM
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Gasifier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malacandra View Post

Water gas gives you methane and carbon monoxide, producer gas just CO and nitrogen (assuming you're blasting air), so producer gas is poor fuel but the reaction is exothermic, whereas the water gas reaction is seriously endothermic (but makes better fuel). So by periodically blasting air to make producer gas, you can heat the coke enough for another water-gas run, and so on.
So, if I were building a wood gasification unit, it would be a good idea to change from air inlets, to alternating gas/water inlets.....?
#23
Old 07-22-2013, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
The next person who confuses CO and CO2 in this thread will be eaten by a Stegosaurus stenops. And yes, contrary to what the Bible tells us, they really are carnivores. And they're hungry.

Do they eat Zombies?
#24
Old 07-23-2013, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
The next person who confuses CO and CO2 in this thread will be eaten by a Stegosaurus stenops. And yes, contrary to what the Bible tells us, they really are carnivores. And they're hungry.
No the ones that are still with us are the Steganosauruses.

When I was growing up our gas supply was water gas. Around 1947 or so, the Philadelphia Gas Co. changed to natural gas. They had to come to each house in the city and change the valves because natural gas has more energy. That must have been a nightmare, since they obviously couldn't do it everywhere on the same day.
#25
Old 07-23-2013, 08:13 AM
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I'm tempted to conflate CO and CO2, just because I want to see a real live steggie.
#26
Old 07-23-2013, 09:10 AM
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It's been proposed that carbon monoxide could serve as a (crappy) rocket fuel for settlers on Mars because it could be made from the ambient carbon dioxide in Mar's atmosphere.
#27
Old 07-23-2013, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Seldon View Post
what were the consequences of using natural gas with a stove tuned for water gas?
Could result in incomplete burning, and the production of CO, Carbon Monoxide.


I guess that to switch an entire city over from one gas to another, you'd hope that for each zone you can switch over in a day, the zone had two (at least) upstream pipes, with stop cocks to control them. So that you'd bring natural gas to one upstream (by laying new mains pipeline ?) and then switching over.


They'd have to lay a new main distributor pipeline to run to the new plant/supply, and because the new source would be larger and expected to supply for gas further.. so there's be significant mains work to be done first, and that would have the effect of creating a new mains network in parallel to the water gas mains.


And because having redundant supply paths was good engineering practice anyway, there's always two upstreams for a zone ?, you can just roll out the new gas east to west..or something..





The natural gas turn on may have requires some efffort to create the chunks/blocks/zones with multiple upstreams.
#28
Old 07-23-2013, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
The next person who confuses CO and CO2 in this thread will be eaten by a Stegosaurus stenops. And yes, contrary to what the Bible tells us, they really are carnivores. And they're hungry.
Please tempt them! They were my favorite dinosaur when growing up. I even let them kill my T-Rex on a regular basis, so they are bad assed in my book. Go ahead, confuse CO with CO2 you pussies!
#29
Old 07-23-2013, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koontzman View Post
So, if I were building a wood gasification unit, it would be a good idea to change from air inlets, to alternating gas/water inlets.....?
You'd probably want to preheat the water and inject steam, but in principle it should work, since a water-gas/producer-gas plant would have been gasifying coal, and once you've distilled off the volatile fractions from wood (as you would with coal) the remaining charcoal should do just as well as coke.

(You're not losing on the deal by boiling the water first, since cold water would be bringing the heat right down anyway...)
#30
Old 07-23-2013, 02:13 PM
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Wait, didn't Brontosauruses live with a lot less Carbon Monoxide in the atmosphere than there is today?
#31
Old 07-23-2013, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludovic View Post
Wait, didn't Brontosauruses live with a lot less Carbon Monoxide in the atmosphere than there is today?
I thought it was more CO; that's why the plants grew so big, which allowed giant dinosaurs. It's also why it was so hot back then: all the Carbon Monoxide created a greenhouse effect.

(I just want to hear Una roar "Release the Stegasaur!" in a Clash of Titans voice )
#32
Old 07-23-2013, 06:01 PM
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Is Carbon Monoxide flamable?

No, it's inflammable.
#33
Old 07-23-2013, 07:10 PM
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It's a common misconception. It's only the Stegosaur's front head that was herbivorous, the rear head was carnivorous.
#34
Old 07-23-2013, 07:18 PM
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The best fire extinguisher is Halon (Dibromotetrafluoroethane) (C2Br2F4)
#35
Old 07-23-2013, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Lemur866 View Post
It's a common misconception. It's only the Stegosaur's front head that was herbivorous, the rear head was carnivorous.
But then where does the Thagomizer go?
#36
Old 07-23-2013, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumpy View Post
No, it's inflammable.
Nope. That's carbon dioxide.
#37
Old 07-23-2013, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumpy View Post
No, it's inflammable.
I wonder how many people that word has killed.
#38
Old 07-23-2013, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isilder View Post
Could result in incomplete burning, and the production of CO, Carbon Monoxide.
Could you use half natural gas, half CO2 during the transition, and get an acceptable burn using either?







(That's for you, Si Amigo. )
#39
Old 07-24-2013, 03:48 AM
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Frankly, I don't think Una Persson has the guts to feed Mosier to a stegosaurus stenops for confusing CO and CO2. I double dawg dare her to try.

#40
Old 07-24-2013, 05:26 AM
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CO2 may be non-flammable, and used in fire extinguishers, but it can actually feed oxygen to a fire under certain circumstances. As Theo Gray demonstrates, putting carbon dioxide on smoldering magnesium can give it enough oxygen to burst into flame -- even when that CO2 is frozen, in the form of dry ice:

http://graysci.com/chapter-five/let-burning-metals-lie/

As he says, using a carbon dioxide fire extinguisher on a pile of smoldering magnesium shavings will make it burst into flame -- magnesium burns better in a carbon dioxide atmospher than in ordinary air.

Magnesium will burn in all sorts of things, including water (it's used in underwater flares) and pure nitrogen. It's not clear to me that it won't burn in carbon monoxide.


Carbon monoxide, by the way, can be burned, as shown in these pages, making CO by reacting formic acid with sulfuric acid:

Quote:
Carbon monoxide is made industrially in the manufacture of synthesis gas from the reaction of alkanes with steam. In the laboratory an easy way to prepare CO is by the dehydration of concentrated methanoic acid using concentrated sulfuric acid1

HCOOH(l) CO(g) + H2O(l)

The CO evolved can then be ignited to show that the gas burns with a pale blue flame.

http://rsc.org/Education/EiC/iss...nChemistry.asp

Picture of burning CO:

http://chemistrydemos.co.uk/webp...%20burning.php
#41
Old 07-24-2013, 05:54 AM
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Fun with magnesium. I can trump that.

On his fantastic blog: Things I won't work with, Derek Lowe points out a couple of fearsome oxidisers. I am pretty certain that they will react with carbondioxide. The lesser of the two will set quartz sand on fire. (Sand won't save you this time. Worth a read.) And this link shows the culprit Chlorine Triflouride and a video of some French chemists demonstrating how it renders all their safety equipment useless.
This all pales in comparison to FOOF.

Short answer to the flammability of CO or CO2 even. With the right oxidiser, pretty much anything will burn.
#42
Old 07-25-2013, 12:11 PM
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Since fluorine is more electronegative than oxygen, you can get all kinds of nasty reactions between fluorine compounds and materials we normally consider inert. Like sand.
#43
Old 07-25-2013, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by j_sum1 View Post
Nope. That's carbon dioxide.
No, I think the word for carbon dioxide and such is unflammable.
#44
Old 07-25-2013, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by naita View Post
No, I think the word for carbon dioxide and such is unflammable.
Dare I say whoosh. Or maybe my joke was too lame.
#45
Old 07-25-2013, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
...Stegosaurus stenops....they really are carnivores. And they're hungry.
If you can't care for your pets you could turn them in to an animal shelter.

Lots of food for them there.
#46
Old 07-26-2013, 02:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_sum1 View Post
Fun with magnesium. I can trump that.

On his fantastic blog: Things I won't work with, Derek Lowe points out a couple of fearsome oxidisers. I am pretty certain that they will react with carbondioxide. The lesser of the two will set quartz sand on fire. (Sand won't save you this time. Worth a read.) And this link shows the culprit Chlorine Triflouride and a video of some French chemists demonstrating how it renders all their safety equipment useless.
This all pales in comparison to FOOF.

Short answer to the flammability of CO or CO2 even. With the right oxidiser, pretty much anything will burn.
Great links; the comments are a hoot, too.
#47
Old 07-26-2013, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by CalMeacham View Post
CO2 may be non-flammable, and used in fire extinguishers, but it can actually feed oxygen to a fire under certain circumstances.
Of course, in that case, you're not so much burning CO2 as unburning it.
#48
Old 07-26-2013, 04:26 AM
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Dare I say whoosh. Or maybe my joke was too lame.
To me it had no humorous value, but I considered it so likely to be a joke instead of ignorance that I posted a paraplegic joke in return instead of a lesson on the equality between flammable and inflammable. You see, unflammable isn't even a word, cromulent though it may appear.
#49
Old 07-26-2013, 05:48 AM
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Great links; the comments are a hoot, too.
"{Chlorine trifluoride} is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers".
#50
Old 07-26-2013, 06:11 AM
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My favourite is "whip up a batch of Satan's kimchi"
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