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#1
Old 12-17-2013, 12:08 AM
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Using the wrong motor oil - dangers

So I've been driving a 1999 Ford Contour for the last 3+ months. The car was given to me after my previous car died.

While driving home from work a few days ago, I took a corner and saw my Oil light flash on, then back off again. It did this each time I rounded a corner. Well crap, I guessed that meant that I was very low on oil, but not completely out. I pulled into a grocery store parking lot and shut off the engine.

From my trunk, I retrieved the two quarts of 10w30 motor oil that I had salvaged from the trunk of my old car before sending it to the junkyard, and dumped them into my engine. Then I went into the store and bought a couple more quarts of 10w30 and added them as well. After that, my dipstick showed my oil was full.

The potential problem is that I don't know if 10w30 is the correct oil for the Contour's engine. There was no owner's manual in the glove box. Given that I was apparently nearly out of oil, I figured "emergency situation" and "any oil is better than no oil" (though, granted, I knew better than to put HD30 in there).

On the off chance that my engine actually calls for 10w40, am I seriously endangering the engine by running with 10w30 in there? I know most modern 4-cylinder engines use 10w30 (my previous car was a 1992 Merc Topaz with a 4-banger, and my two previous cars were a 1989 Honda Accord and a 1986 Chevy Cavalier; all three used 10w30), but the Contour appears to have a 6-cylinder engine, and not being a mechanic, I don't know how much difference that makes. Granted, it may be a 4-cylinder; I haven't had time to thoroughly investigate.

Last edited by Mister Rik; 12-17-2013 at 12:10 AM.
#2
Old 12-17-2013, 12:17 AM
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From the owner's manual for your car
Quote:
Engine oil
Use SAE 5W-30 motor oil
CERTIFIED FOR GASOLINE
ENGINES by the American
Petroleum Institute.
So it calls for 5W-30, not 10W-40. Unless it is super cold, the difference between 5W and 10W are moot.

What is important, is go change the oil in the engine (yeah I know you just dumped a bunch in, but you have done nothing for the crap that was still in there) don't forget to put a new filter on. Then you can fill it up with the proper grade of oil.
#3
Old 12-17-2013, 12:25 AM
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You added four quarts? You were seriously low on oil -- I think the six-cylinder engine takes a bit less than six quarts.

As Rick says, the difference between 10W-30 and 5W-30 is nothing to worry about.

I would worry, though, about how you got to be four quarts low on oil. It's inconceivable that a modern engine could burn that much oil unless something is very wrong. Or you've got a leak.

Last edited by Saintly Loser; 12-17-2013 at 12:26 AM.
#4
Old 12-17-2013, 12:32 AM
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Thanks - I just tracked down the owner's manual online and found the same information at the same time you did But yeah, I think it was 10w30, but it may have been 5w. Unfortunately, I discarded the bottles so that I can't check.

But you mentioned "super cold". It's been below freezing here lately. The engine seems to be running fine with the oil I put in, but I suspect it wouldn't be a bad idea to take it to my favorite oil-change place and have them do their thing. I'm an apartment-dweller and really don't have the space to do the whole job myself. Not to mention that I park on the street — a busy main thoroughfare in my town. Not the best place for car maintenance!

I just wonder where the oil is going. I haven't seen the puddles under this car that I've seen with my previous cars, so I suspect the engine just may be burning up the oil somehow.
#5
Old 12-17-2013, 12:36 AM
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Oops, I was replying to Rick; Saintly Loser's post came in while I was typing.

But yeah, as I mentioned, I'm not seeing puddles under the car, so I suspect it's burning oil. Given that it was a free car, I'm not going to complain, but my plan is to trade it in for something better.
#6
Old 12-17-2013, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Rik View Post
But you mentioned "super cold". It's been below freezing here lately. The engine seems to be running fine with the oil I put in, but I suspect it wouldn't be a bad idea to take it to my favorite oil-change place and have them do their thing. I'm an apartment-dweller and really don't have the space to do the whole job myself. Not to mention that I park on the street a busy main thoroughfare in my town. Not the best place for car maintenance!

I just wonder where the oil is going. I haven't seen the puddles under this car that I've seen with my previous cars, so I suspect the engine just may be burning up the oil somehow.
When I said super cold, I meant super cold. -20F or worse kind of cold. At those temps the 10W would be much thicker and make the engine that much harder to start.
The car might be burning it, but who knows how long it has been since the last oil change. Do the oil change, check the oil when you gas up, and track your mileage.
#7
Old 12-17-2013, 11:09 AM
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The 5w/10w is merely the viscosity rating at an arbitrary cold temp, and the 30 is the viscosity rating at an arbitrary high temp - I believe it's 100C.

These aren't point values, but more like bands- SAE 30 @ 100C means that the oil's viscosity falls somewhere between 9.3 and 12.5 centistokes (the actual viscosity measurement), so the 5w/10w doesn't have anything to do with it- it's entirely possible that the 5w could be 12 cSt, and the 10w could be 9.35 cSt at operating temp (the opposite of what you'd think).

In general, your "W" number can't really be too low. People think of motor oil as not thinning out as it gets hot, but it should really be thought of in the reverse situation.

If your engine calls for oil betweeen 9.3 and 12.5 centistokes at 100C, then you really want your oil as close to that all the time as you can get.

The problem is that most oils that are that viscosity at temperature thicken up like crazy as they cool off- a straight 30HD oil might be 11.7 cSt at operating temp, but at 40C (a hot day!) it might thicken up to as high as 100 cSt. A 5w/10w-30 might thicken up to 60 cSt, and the 5w will be pumpable and pourable at a lower temp than the 10w.

Clearly the point is to engineer oils that are at the right operating viscosity and that thicken as little as possible, so the lower the first number (the "5w" for example), the better.
#8
Old 12-17-2013, 12:04 PM
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When you go next in for fuel, you should do some basic checks. Oil, water, tyre pressures (including the spare) at the very least. Top up the washer bottle with suitable fluid as well if you can. On Fords over here in the UK, all the important bits under the bonnet (hood) are coloured yellow.
#9
Old 12-17-2013, 03:37 PM
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Occasional topping up, or even an occasional oil change, with a different viscosity oil isn't going to ruin the engine. However, consistently using the wrong oil can cause problems.

Field experience has shown that some engines will suffer premature camshaft failure if 10W-30 is used instead of 5W-30. GM changed their recommendations to 5W-30 for some new engine designs in the 80's after seeing a lot of cams getting wiped out. Ford issued a TSB changing from 10W-30 to 5W-30 which applied retroactively to their engines.

You don't need to lose sleep over having 10W-30 in it for the time being, but you should make a point of normally using 5W-30.
#10
Old 12-17-2013, 11:01 PM
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Hijack: Is there a problem using 20W-50 oil in an old beater engine that's rated for a lower grade? I ask because years ago, a mechanic suggested that I use that grade to fix a problematic oil leak which would have cost thousands of dollars in repair. It seems to work like a charm, haven't had any problems in years. However, every time I go to Jiffy Lube and ask for 20W-50, they FREAK OUT and make me promise I won't sue them for any damage, etc. What's the expert opinion on this?
#11
Old 12-17-2013, 11:19 PM
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The Contour was retroactively specced for 5W20. [pdf]
#12
Old 12-18-2013, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddha_david View Post
Hijack: Is there a problem using 20W-50 oil in an old beater engine that's rated for a lower grade? I ask because years ago, a mechanic suggested that I use that grade to fix a problematic oil leak which would have cost thousands of dollars in repair. It seems to work like a charm, haven't had any problems in years. However, every time I go to Jiffy Lube and ask for 20W-50, they FREAK OUT and make me promise I won't sue them for any damage, etc. What's the expert opinion on this?
Well since it is a beater, and you opted for the "heavier" oil instead of the "thousands of dollars fix", I would not worry about it. You are going to scrap this rig as soon as it has a major breakdown anyway. The worst it will do is to prematurely wear the main and rod bearings. This would be your major breakdown. You will probably not even see that failure if you keep oil in it. Running it one to two quarts low on oil is a major screw-up. That and not the weight of the oil in any car is a condition that WILL ruin your engine bearings.

I worry that the OP did some serious damage to his engine bearings. His engine was at least FOUR quarts low. If it were me, I would pay the extra $$ to the jiffy lube place for an oil analysis. They take some of the old oil and send it to a lab. The lab will send you a report on the oil. It can tell you of an impending engine failure. At about $30.00 it is a cheep diagnostic tool. It will give you some insight as to whether to trade this off quickly or if you can wait awhile. I personally do this every other oil change. This way I can track trends in the engine. I only have one rig that I care this much about though.

IHTH, 48.
#13
Old 12-18-2013, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob++ View Post
When you go next in for fuel, you should do some basic checks. Oil, water, tyre pressures (including the spare) at the very least. Top up the washer bottle with suitable fluid as well if you can. On Fords over here in the UK, all the important bits under the bonnet (hood) are coloured yellow.
Trany fluid too. That can go from "works perfectly fine" to "Oh crap! how the hell did my transmission lock up like that?!" in two seconds flat. There is no gradual demise.
#14
Old 12-18-2013, 10:28 AM
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Is it more a problem if oil types, not weights, are mixed? In other words is half the oil being synthetic and half "natural" a bad thing?

(I would assume so more than weight)
#15
Old 12-18-2013, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kopek View Post
Is it more a problem if oil types, not weights, are mixed? In other words is half the oil being synthetic and half "natural" a bad thing?
No problem there. You can buy it premixed.
#16
Old 12-18-2013, 11:14 AM
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Get the ball joints and tie-rod ends checked, it's easiest to do by having the steering alignment checked, even if the alignment seems fine.

Thanx, 48Willys ... I'll start using 5W30 instead of 10W30.
#17
Old 12-18-2013, 11:52 AM
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More, perhaps, than you care to know about engine oil:

Home page

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#18
Old 12-18-2013, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 48Willys View Post
Running it one to two quarts low on oil is a major screw-up. That and not the weight of the oil in any car is a condition that WILL ruin your engine bearings.
Is that really true? I thought the common wisdom was that running 1-2 quarts low isn't a problem in itself, but the main risk is that if you lose any more oil, you're in serious trouble. Or is that advice outdated?

Continued hijack: What about overfilling the oil tank? What kind of problems could that cause?
#19
Old 12-18-2013, 12:59 PM
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Oil doesn't only lubricate. It helps cool the engine, so running it low could contribute to overheating.

Whether one or two quarts low is bad to extremely dangerous depends upon the engine design and its oil capacity at full.

Overfilling could lead to frothing. Ironically, too much oil could lead to oil starvation.

Last edited by Kenm; 12-18-2013 at 12:59 PM.
#20
Old 12-18-2013, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakes View Post
Trany fluid too. That can go from "works perfectly fine" to "Oh crap! how the hell did my transmission lock up like that?!" in two seconds flat. There is no gradual demise.
Mixing different types of ATF can be fatal to a trans. Put Dextron in a box that calls for synthetic and the next thing you put in will be a rebuilt trans.
Iffy Lube has found this out the hard way.
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#21
Old 12-18-2013, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddha_david View Post
Continued hijack: What about overfilling the oil tank? What kind of problems could that cause?
To elaborate a bit on Kenm's answer, the oil in the engine collects at the bottom (it's more of a pan than a tank). From there it gets pumped up through the engine, where it lubricates all of the stuff that needs lubricated, and eventually drips back down to the bottom of the engine, where it starts the cycle again and just repeats over and over.

The oil in the pan sits below a bunch of moving parts (crankshaft, pistons, etc). If the oil level is too high, then it comes into contact with these parts and the oil gets whipped into a froth. This frothy oil won't get pumped properly (it's more air than oil in the froth) and so ironically the engine gets starved for oil even though it has too much oil.

Since the end result is the same (no oil gets to where it needs to go) it's basically just as bad for the engine as running it too low on oil.

Last edited by engineer_comp_geek; 12-18-2013 at 01:40 PM.
#22
Old 12-18-2013, 01:56 PM
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Whatb problems (other than decreased efficiency) occur from using oil more viscous than it should be?
#23
Old 12-18-2013, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
Whatb problems (other than decreased efficiency) occur from using oil more viscous than it should be?
I'm not sure what you mean by efficiency. If you're talking about flow rate, that is the problem. Thicker oil may not get delivered quickly enough to lubricate enough. This is particularly a problem with cold engine starts, where the "W" factor (the W stands for winter, a cold spec as mentioned by bump) is important.

It used to be that higher numbers meant more protection, especially at high temperatures and high engine speeds. As oil has been improved over the years, protection has been increased by refinery-installed additives such as friction modifiers and film strength enhancers. Today's 20 may work as well as, say, the 40 of yesteryear. The trend has been to lower numbers. The once common 10W-30 gave way to 5W-30 for many engines, and in recent years we've seen 5W-20 and now even 0W-20. Better oil flow, especially when cold, has been found to yield a significant improvement in engine longevity.
#24
Old 12-18-2013, 04:09 PM
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So what is the downside of being more viscous? What harm gets done? Potentially a little less protection in cold weather starts? Anything else?

My efficiency unerstanding comes from the fact that my mpg readings on moment by moment reads (hybrid cars for 11 years) are alway lower for the first portion of the drives and then get much better. I was understanding (perhaps mistakenly) that that was because the oil was more viscous at first and therefore everything a bit harder to push around and that as the engine armed things were slipperier and thus more efficiently running.
#25
Old 12-18-2013, 04:29 PM
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Potentially, an oil that is too viscous won't pump properly through the engine leading to more wear and tear on parts and more heat being generated due to friction, possibly causing parts to fail sooner.

And yes, there's a slight efficiency hit from the extra effort required to slosh the thick goopey oil around through the engine. It's more noticeable on smaller engines (like motorcycle engines). However. most of the efficiency loss in a cold engine comes from the cold combustion chamber leading to incomplete combustion rather than efficiencies lost due to oil viscosity.

You may already be aware of this, but note that the W number is the "winter" number or the cold viscosity number, so 10w30 and 10w40 both provide exactly the same viscosity (and therefore protection) during an engine cold start. It's only when the oil heats up that the 10w40 is thicker.
#26
Old 12-18-2013, 04:48 PM
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Putting the Simple Back into Viscosity
#27
Old 12-18-2013, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenm View Post
Bob's article was certainly informative, but I wouldn't have called it simple like he did.
#28
Old 12-18-2013, 10:38 PM
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This guy breaks it down pretty good, too:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

He's actually a freaking cardiologist, so he understands flow and pressure.
Not a quick read, but it's in pretty plain English.

Last edited by Mr. Slant; 12-18-2013 at 10:39 PM.
#29
Old 12-18-2013, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddha_david View Post
Hijack: Is there a problem using 20W-50 oil in an old beater engine that's rated for a lower grade? I ask because years ago, a mechanic suggested that I use that grade to fix a problematic oil leak which would have cost thousands of dollars in repair. It seems to work like a charm, haven't had any problems in years. However, every time I go to Jiffy Lube and ask for 20W-50, they FREAK OUT and make me promise I won't sue them for any damage, etc. What's the expert opinion on this?
That's sort of what STP was all about.

First, engines of today are built with much closer tolerances, engineered better and don't wear like engines of a few decades ago. When an engine wears it starts to burn oil. The thinner the oil, the faster it will burn off because it will be easier to bypass the piston rings due to how thin it is.

STP was/is highly viscous. It was designed to increase the viscosity of the oil and therefore provide better lubrication and lower oil consumption for engines that were experiencing wear. For the racing engines of the time it also seemed to provide better lubrication under severe conditions.

So when your mechanic said to go to 20/50 it was much the same as the mechanic of the past saying, "add a can of STP."

If you live in and area with extremely cold temperatures you might have problems with sufficient lubrication upon starting the engine. Otherwise, you are getting a lot of miles out of the beater without having to do an engine rebuild by using the higher viscosity oil.
#30
Old 12-19-2013, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddha_david View Post
Is that really true? I thought the common wisdom was that running 1-2 quarts low isn't a problem in itself, but the main risk is that if you lose any more oil, you're in serious trouble. Or is that advice outdated?

Continued hijack: What about overfilling the oil tank? What kind of problems could that cause?
I do not know where this "common wisdom" is coming from, certainly not the car manufacturer nor a reputable engine shop. It is not wisdom, nor is it common, at least among mechanics it is not.

As has been said, It sure is not good to run an engine two quarts low. In modern engines the oil capacity is less then it was two decades ago. These engines also run at higher RPMs then they used to, add a turbo and you can see that these engines run at a much higher temperature then the the earlier ones did. These engines need all of the cooling that they can get! One should NOT make a practice of running an engine low on oil. Unless of course, one wants to experience a catastrophic engine failure.

Many have replied to you about the frothing issue. I concur with their analysis. Another issue If one were to over fill the oil sump, is that the crankcase pressure may build up to a high enough value that some of the oil seals in the engine may fail. A leaking front or rear crankshaft seal can sling out three quarts of oil in less then two minutes. BAD, very BAD.

I have seen this, when my sister had a car that used two quarts of oil between oil changes. She got tired of checking the oil at every fill-up, so she just added the two quarts to the crankcase just after the oil change. Her car now had seven quarts of oil instead of five. She thought that she was good to go until the next oil change. In practice, the engine oil was high enough that it was churned up by the crankshaft. The front & rear oil seals failed and dumped three quarts onto the exhaust pipe. The billowing cloud of blue smoke was enough of a clue to her, that she shut off the engine and coasted to a stop. Then she called me. I got my trailer and "rescued" her, she was two miles from where she had added the extra two quarts. I got to rebuild her engine sooner then either of us would have liked.

Please keep your oil level where it belongs. No more then one pint low should be a hard and fast rule for you. One pint over full should be OK, no promises on this though.
#31
Old 12-19-2013, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Rik View Post
I just wonder where the oil is going. I haven't seen the puddles under this car that I've seen with my previous cars, so I suspect the engine just may be burning up the oil somehow.

Depending on what type of driving you do, you could have a serious leak while also not leaving significant drips of oil on the ground. The leaked oil could be coating the outside of the oil pan or other underside parts of the car. It could be blown back and dried underneath your car.

If you can crawl underneath with a flashlight and look, that would be valuable to see if you do have visible leaks or not. A simple and quick way, if you don't have ramps or jack stands, is to park at a clean curb, with one side of the car up on the curb and the other side's wheels on the street. That is usually more than enough room to get underneath for a look. Whatever you do, do not crawl underneath if your car is up on its jack -- very risky.

Last edited by Bullitt; 12-19-2013 at 07:47 AM.
#32
Old 12-19-2013, 09:05 AM
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Thoughts on synthetics?
#33
Old 12-19-2013, 09:18 AM
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N/M

Last edited by Machine Elf; 12-19-2013 at 09:18 AM.
#34
Old 12-19-2013, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenm View Post
Oil doesn't only lubricate. It helps cool the engine, so running it low could contribute to overheating.
I could see this being a problem if the oil level is so low that the oil pump starts drawing in air. But if the pump's pickup is perpetually submerged, then there shouldn't be a problem. Having said that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenm View Post
Whether one or two quarts low is bad to extremely dangerous depends upon the engine design and its oil capacity at full.
There's the rub. If you're below the "low" mark on the dipstick, you don't know how low you can go before the pump starts sucking air and causing cooling/lubrication shortfalls. It's a bit like going faster than the speed rating on your tires. Yeah, there's some safety margin, but you don't know how much, so you are basically rolling the dice. This is especially true once the level falls off of the bottom end of the dipstick, at which point you have absolutely no idea how much oil you actually have.

I can't think of a good reason to operate the engine with oil below the "low" mark. The cheapest API-certified motor oil at Wal-Mart is a couple of bucks a quart, and no driveable car burns/leaks oil so fast that you can't make it to the nearest store when you notice you're getting close to the low mark.
#35
Old 12-19-2013, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by echo7tango View Post
Depending on what type of driving you do, you could have a serious leak while also not leaving significant drips of oil on the ground.
I once had a beater, "fill it up with oil and check the gas". Never a drop on the ground and not that much burning. I "Gunked" the engine and found the oil blowing out the oil pressure sending unit near the top of the engine. Seemed it only leaked when I was driving. Off-topic, but my 4-year-old was trying to be helpful and filled up my gas tank for me ... with the garden hose ... ROFL ... it was sooooooo cute.

Last edited by watchwolf49; 12-19-2013 at 12:14 PM.
#36
Old 12-20-2013, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
Thoughts on synthetics?
After thousands of hours of recreational reading on motor oil as a topic...
They're generally a waste of money if your car doesn't call for them and you don't race it.
They're also a break-even proposition if you run them and do extended oil change intervals, complete with getting your oil analyzed once you're done with it, etc.
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