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#1
Old 02-25-2014, 02:00 PM
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do/could a submarine relly breach the surface like this?

I've seen in some shows and cartoons subs surfacing at high speed so that their bow breaks the surface at an angle then crashes back down to rst on the surface (here's an example: http://youtu.be/eOqalX5FJ2c?t=7s)

How steep an angle could they manage? I've seen in one anime the vessel coming out near-vertical (for dramatic effect)

Wouldn't this damage the hull (particularly the keel)? I know subs are built to withstand enormous pressures, but not too sure they could handle the amount of tension this would cause

Last edited by dstarfire; 02-25-2014 at 02:04 PM. Reason: discovered video of actual breach so I know it's at least possible
#2
Old 02-25-2014, 02:07 PM
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Very possible.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1HRcaAxupLM
#3
Old 02-25-2014, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacherousCretin View Post
That was the same video from the OP.
#4
Old 02-25-2014, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dstarfire View Post
I've seen in some shows and cartoons subs surfacing at high speed so that their bow breaks the surface at an angle then crashes back down to rst on the surface (here's an example: http://youtu.be/eOqalX5FJ2c?t=7s)

How steep an angle could they manage? I've seen in one anime the vessel coming out near-vertical (for dramatic effect)
There is a maximum up angle that a sub can safely achieve, and it's less than vertical. That's about all of the detail that anybody who actually knows will be able to give you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstarfire View Post
Wouldn't this damage the hull (particularly the keel)? I know subs are built to withstand enormous pressures, but not too sure they could handle the amount of tension this would cause
An emergency blow does not cause any damage to the hull (assuming the sub ensures the area is clear and doesn't run into anything on the surface). (Unfortunately, this was not the case in one infamous instance.) We used to do them quarterly for training purposes and to ensure the equipment was working properly.

The first time I was onboard during an emergency blow, I eagerly anticipated the event and stayed up despite the fact that I had just come off of the midwatch and had been awake for nearly 24 hours. A year later, I actually slept through an emergency blow. The emergency blows were actually far smoother than when we were driving on the surface in heavy seas. There were times on the surface in heavy seas where the hull sounded like it was going to collapse.
#5
Old 02-25-2014, 03:01 PM
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Yes, they can.

In fact this is how the USS Greenville struck and sunk the Japanese fishing trawler Ehime Maru. The trawler sank and two students were drowned during the collision.

Reference:

http://ntsb.gov/investigations/fulltext/mab0501.htm

Last edited by nevadaexile; 02-25-2014 at 03:01 PM.
#6
Old 02-25-2014, 03:11 PM
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The Seaview came pretty close to 90 .
#7
Old 02-25-2014, 03:21 PM
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Thanks for the info.

I hadn't thought about subs being designed to operate on the surface in heavy seas (which would exert the same sort of stresses as a high-speed breach).
#8
Old 02-25-2014, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Earl Snake-Hips Tucker View Post
The Seaview came pretty close to 90 .
Dammit, I was going to mention that.
#9
Old 02-25-2014, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dstarfire View Post
Wouldn't this damage the hull (particularly the keel)?
Submarines (well, U.S. Navy nuclear submarines) don't have keels.
#10
Old 02-25-2014, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post
Submarines (well, U.S. Navy nuclear submarines) don't have keels.
I am confused. There are numerous articles referring to the keel-laying ceremonies for new nuclear submarines, like the USS John Warner. Is this just a figure of speech these days?
#11
Old 02-25-2014, 08:09 PM
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Pretty much. Keel-laying basically refers to the beginning of major construction. Cite.
#12
Old 02-25-2014, 08:28 PM
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Since the OP is answered, can I ask one?

You know how on TV there will be some people floating around in a rubber dinghy and a submarine will gently come up under them balancing the dinghy on top? Can they really do that?
#13
Old 02-25-2014, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post
Submarines (well, U.S. Navy nuclear submarines) don't have keels.
Some subs have keels?
#14
Old 02-25-2014, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by levdrakon View Post
Since the OP is answered, can I ask one?

You know how on TV there will be some people floating around in a rubber dinghy and a submarine will gently come up under them balancing the dinghy on top? Can they really do that?
Um, it could happen, but not like you see it on TV or movies. First of all, the sub's going to have to come to periscope depth to spot the dinghy and see to maneuver under it. Since 007 is too busy smooching the babe of the film, they never notice that. Step 2 is where reality steps in and ruins stuff.

There's only 2 ways a sub can surface. There's probably some jargon the bubbleheads know that I don't, but they can either surface under propulsion, where the boat has to be going forward and the dive planes are angled upward to drive the boat to the surface. That means the sub needs a sort of head start to the dinghy and if they manage to center the dinghy on the deck, it's going to smash into the front of the sail. The other way is to maneuver under the dinghy, come to a full stop, and then blow the water out of the ballast tanks. And that's going to result in a lot of foam around the dinghy.

Thirdly, in WWII era subs, there was a flat slatted wooden deck on top of the pressure hull which would be great for picking up a dinghy that way. If the life lines weren't rigged. But the subs nowadays are curved. So the chances are a rubber dinghy would slip off the slippery top of the hull and over the side.
#15
Old 02-25-2014, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robby View Post
There is a maximum up angle that a sub can safely achieve, and it's less than vertical. That's about all of the detail that anybody who actually knows will be able to give you.
I think it's more a matter of need & comfort vs. engineering. IOW the subs are probably capable of (nearly) vertical emergency ascents, but it would be hugely inconvenient (not to mention dangerous) for the crewmen and equipment inside. Plus, there would be no real advantage or need to ever do so...
#16
Old 02-26-2014, 01:17 AM
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Was randomly surfing Wikipedia for facts on US submarines in WW2, and came across this relevant bit on the USS Chopper:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The crews efforts began to take effect. Chopper lost the headway that was taking her deeper, and even began to make sternway. Her bow began to rise, reached level, and continued to climb. Chopper began to ascend with a rapidly increasing up-angle until she was again nearly vertical in the water, now bow up.

About two minutes after losing electrical power, Chopper shot through the surface of the ocean, nearly vertical. The entire forward section of the submarine, to the aft edge of the sail, cleared the surface before she fell back. Her momentum carried her down to a depth of about 200 ft (61 m) before she surfaced again, leveled out, and remained on the surface.
Chopper returned to port under her own power. Inspection discovered that her hull had suffered extensive structural damage during the deep dive and rapid ascent. Chopper was decommissioned on 15 September 1969.
So yeah, it can be done, with extensive but not crippling damage.
#17
Old 02-26-2014, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
Some subs have keels?
WW2 era ones certainly did, given they were surface ships that could occasionally submerge. See, for example, Norman Friedman's treatise on submarine construction prior to 1945. (It's searchable on Google Books. ). I do not know if the Albacore and its successors did or not: I.e. when the USN went to the modular cylindrical construction they evidently use now.
#18
Old 02-26-2014, 01:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
Was randomly surfing Wikipedia for facts on US submarines in WW2, and came across this relevant bit on the USS Chopper:


So yeah, it can be done, with extensive but not crippling damage.
The thread we recently had on whether a nuclear submarine could operate upside down, would probably be of interest. As robby said here though, anyone who really knows ain't talking.
#19
Old 02-26-2014, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger Jeff View Post
...There's only 2 ways a sub can surface. There's probably some jargon the bubbleheads know that I don't, but they can either surface under propulsion, where the boat has to be going forward and the dive planes are angled upward to drive the boat to the surface. That means the sub needs a sort of head start to the dinghy and if they manage to center the dinghy on the deck, it's going to smash into the front of the sail. The other way is to maneuver under the dinghy, come to a full stop, and then blow the water out of the ballast tanks. And that's going to result in a lot of foam around the dinghy.
Some clarification/nitpicks here:

First off, a sub can drive to the surface (as you say), but it won't stay surfaced unless the main ballast tanks (MBTs) are emptied of sea water. This is can be done in two ways: either blow the water out with high pressure air, or use the low pressure blower to slowly empty out the ballast tanks. The latter method takes about 30 minutes, and is the usual method of surfacing. To use the LP blower, the sub has to be at periscope depth (PD) or shallower, and the induction mast needs to be raised to supply air from the surface. To get to PD, the sub first drives to the surface using propulsion and the planes.

In an emergency, the sub uses high pressure air from the emergency blow system to quickly empty (or partially empty when deeper) the MBTs. This operation is what is being done in the OP's video.

Some classes of sub also have a "normal blow" system, which is a separate bank of high pressure air and piping which can be used to evacuate the MBTs of seawater. Some classes of subs designed for under-ice operations have a similar system used to slowly use high-pressure air to evacuate the MBTs when surfacing through ice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger Jeff View Post
Thirdly, in WWII era subs, there was a flat slatted wooden deck on top of the pressure hull which would be great for picking up a dinghy that way. If the life lines weren't rigged. But the subs nowadays are curved. So the chances are a rubber dinghy would slip off the slippery top of the hull and over the side.
The top of the hull of a submarine is not slippery. There is a section of non-skid at the top of the hull so that crewmembers don't slip off when walking around topside when in port, or during underway operations when leaving or returning to port.

Last edited by robby; 02-26-2014 at 10:23 AM.
#20
Old 02-26-2014, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by From link
In 1976, Chopper was modified to serve as a tethered, submerged torpedo target for Spadefish. On 21 July, while Spadefish was on her final approach, Chopper began to take on water, broke her tethers, and sank.
How do they moor a target sub underwater?
#21
Old 02-26-2014, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robby View Post
Some clarification/nitpicks here:

The top of the hull of a submarine is not slippery. There is a section of non-skid at the top of the hull so that crewmembers don't slip off when walking around topside when in port, or during underway operations when leaving or returning to port.
And SSBN's have a decent sized section of their hull that is flat on top. It is called the turtleback.
#22
Old 02-26-2014, 12:41 PM
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Plus, there are subs like the Typhoon/Akula class which are flat all the way down.
#23
Old 02-27-2014, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Hermitian View Post
And SSBN's have a decent sized section of their hull that is flat on top. It is called the turtleback.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright View Post
Plus, there are subs like the Typhoon/Akula class which are flat all the way down.
It's turtlebacks all the way down.
#24
Old 04-13-2017, 03:10 PM
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could a submarine really rapidly break through ice like in the fate of the furious trailer

so the title says it all. I've seen the new fate of the furious trailer several times & it shows a submarine bursting up through ice & knocking several vehicles into the air. is it possible for a submarine to really do that? all the videos I've found with google don't show such a rapid surfacing. I know its a movie but it got me wondering if it is possible for any submarines to really do that? thanks!

P.S: Sorry if this should be in another forum. it IS about submarines so I figured it would fit here. Later!
#25
Old 04-13-2017, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post
Submarines (well, U.S. Navy nuclear submarines) don't have keels.
Open source midship section drawings of US nuclear subs are hard to come by, but there must be internal longitudinal strength members in addition to the (basically) circular transverse frames, and it stands to reason there is one of them on the bottom centerline like almost any other ship, and if so that's still by convention called a keel. Modern US nuclear subs don't have external keels that serve as hydrodynamic surfaces as for a sailing vessel or to hold permanent ballast as some earlier subs did, true. But neither do the overwhelmingly majority of steel surface ships nowadays. Merchant ships now are virtually always flat bottomed. But the internal centerline longitudinal member is still called the keel.

Not a super key point relative to the question, and I agree with another post noting that 'keel laying' nowadays just means when the first prefabricated module of whatever type of vessel is placed in the building dock (or rarely nowadays an inclined launching way) where the vessel is going to be erected.

And back on original question, there as so many pictures and videos of submarines practicing emergency surfacing at startling angles, it's obviously possible. If it were just a few and recent one might wonder if it was photoshop, but similar pictures have been in authoritative books about subs since long before there was photoshop or the internet.

Last edited by Corry El; 04-13-2017 at 03:54 PM.
#26
Old 04-13-2017, 05:47 PM
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Hi AriesGal79. Welcome to SD.
#27
Old 04-13-2017, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AriesGal79 View Post
so the title says it all. I've seen the new fate of the furious trailer several times & it shows a submarine bursting up through ice & knocking several vehicles into the air. is it possible for a submarine to really do that? all the videos I've found with google don't show such a rapid surfacing. I know its a movie but it got me wondering if it is possible for any submarines to really do that? thanks!
See here for a US submarine surfacing through ice.

But it isn't 'bursting'. I expect that would cause some damage.
This video shows the submarine coming up, so presumably it was a planned location, with someone there to meet them and film it. So they likely would have chosen a location of comparatively thin ice. (I think their instruments allow them to find such places while submerged.) The ice looks to be only a meter or so thick in that video. And it shows the crew using a chain saw on the ice to get down to open a hatch. So the sub didn't really come entirely through the ice -- it was effectively just floating underneat the ice, with only the sail & top deck above water.
#28
Old 04-13-2017, 09:07 PM
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Our resident submariner has explained through-ice surfacing a time or two. It's done gently to avoid damaging the sub. After all, ice is a natural material and far from homogenous. The only sure way to discover the strength of any given spot is by pushing on it and seeing if it breaks before or after your submarine does.

Having said that, it might well be stupid reckless to emergency blow up through sea ice. But if the sub was lucky enough that the ice was thin enough the sub would be fine.

Whether that same ice would be thick enough to support a car or truck is a different question. Sea ice in general is a lot more broken and jumbled and confused than is the flat smooth lake ice folks often drive vehicles over.

Last edited by LSLGuy; 04-13-2017 at 09:08 PM.
#29
Old 04-13-2017, 09:10 PM
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Let's for a minute forget about the ice. Can a sub toss cars like is seen in that stupid movie's trailer?
#30
Old 04-13-2017, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSLGuy View Post
Our resident submariner has explained through-ice surfacing a time or two. It's done gently to avoid damaging the sub. After all, ice is a natural material and far from homogenous. The only sure way to discover the strength of any given spot is by pushing on it and seeing if it breaks before or after your submarine does.

Having said that, it might well be stupid reckless to emergency blow up through sea ice. But if the sub was lucky enough that the ice was thin enough the sub would be fine.

Whether that same ice would be thick enough to support a car or truck is a different question. Sea ice in general is a lot more broken and jumbled and confused than is the flat smooth lake ice folks often drive vehicles over.
IIRC, the Soviet Typhoon class (famously seen in The Hunt for Red October) could break through the ice quickly.

Here is an article and video of such a breakthrough in 1996.

Last edited by AK84; 04-13-2017 at 11:22 PM.
#31
Old 04-15-2017, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by snfaulkner View Post
Let's for a minute forget about the ice. Can a sub toss cars like is seen in that stupid movie's trailer?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
IIRC, the Soviet Typhoon class (famously seen in The Hunt for Red October) could break through the ice quickly.

Here is an article and video of such a breakthrough in 1996.
In the linked video, the Typhoon-class sub doesn't appear to surface and break through the ice particularly quickly...

Last edited by robby; 04-15-2017 at 07:06 PM.
#32
Old 04-15-2017, 09:54 PM
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Been there, done that. Hitting the "Chicken Switches" is an E-Ticket ride.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robby View Post
No.

In the linked video, the Typhoon-class sub doesn't appear to surface and break through the ice particularly quickly...
They don't need to. Better to take it easy when practicing, so as not to damage important things which have to move - Like Mast Heads, hatches, and such.
#33
Old 04-16-2017, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by robby View Post
An emergency blow does not cause any damage to the hull (assuming the sub ensures the area is clear and doesn't run into anything on the surface). (Unfortunately, this was not the case in one infamous instance.) We used to do them quarterly for training purposes and to ensure the equipment was working properly.
And dependents cruises, can't forget those =) Though angles and dangles was fun too . [though I admit I used to go but not do the normal dependent crap but head to machinery and hang with mrAru and the rest of our friends.]
#34
Old 04-16-2017, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Tranquilis View Post
Been there, done that. Hitting the "Chicken Switches" is an E-Ticket ride.
Agreed...especially the first time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tranquilis View Post
They don't need to. Better to take it easy when practicing, so as not to damage important things which have to move - Like Mast Heads, hatches, and such.
Right, I was responding to AK84's comment that they could.
#35
Old 04-17-2017, 11:30 AM
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robby, I bow to your expertise of submarine operations. . Just repeating what I read about the Typhoons. Incidentally how does it feel when the boat hits the ice? Does it shake, wat kind of noises do you hear? Did you see curious Polar Bears like the Russkies in the video?
#36
Old 04-17-2017, 11:31 AM
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Actually I would love to plug the Sub museum in Groton CT - you can actually tour the USS Nautilus, the first US nuke boat ... and there are assorted interesting static displays and interesting bits about submarine history.
#37
Old 04-17-2017, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tranquilis View Post
Been there, done that. Hitting the "Chicken Switches" is an E-Ticket ride.
Quote:
Originally Posted by robby View Post
Agreed...especially the first time.
That was one ride I never tired of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aruvqan View Post
Actually I would love to plug the Sub museum in Groton CT - you can actually tour the USS Nautilus, the first US nuke boat ... and there are assorted interesting static displays and interesting bits about submarine history.
I'll second that.
#38
Old 04-17-2017, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SCAdian View Post
That was one ride I never tired of.
Especially if you can swing it so that you're in the Bow Compartment. Closest thing to a rollercoaster you're going to get in a naval vessel, absent a truly stupendous storm.
#39
Old 04-18-2017, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
robby, I bow to your expertise of submarine operations. . Just repeating what I read about the Typhoons. Incidentally how does it feel when the boat hits the ice? Does it shake, wat kind of noises do you hear? Did you see curious Polar Bears like the Russkies in the video?
As I recall, the act of breaking through the ice was much more anticlimactic that I expected. There were a few noises, but nothing particularly notable.

We never saw any polar bears, but did maintain a polar bear watch up in the sail (i.e. conning tower) of our boat when people were out and about on the ice. This consisted of two lookouts, one of whom was armed with an M16 rifle. We were all pretty sure that if a polar bear did show up, the M16 would be more likely than not to just piss off the bear...
#40
Old 04-18-2017, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robby View Post
As I recall, the act of breaking through the ice was much more anticlimactic that I expected. There were a few noises, but nothing particularly notable.
Frankly, there was more drama in the evolution pre-briefings and checklists.
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