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#1
Old 07-07-2014, 04:11 PM
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Is Ray Jessel's "What She's Got" number offensive/bigoted/transphobic?

I can't be the only person to have noticed that there's a bit of an internet flap going on about the recent "America's Got Talent" audition performance of showbiz-writing veteran Ray Jessel:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dWLy20skejk

Harmless novelty song, or toxic bigotry superficially sanitized by association with a well-intentioned cuddly grandpa figure?
#2
Old 07-07-2014, 04:26 PM
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Harmless novelty song but I can't really blame transgendered people for being somewhat upset. Listening to the song Jessen does consistently refer to the woman as "she" and "her" though.
#3
Old 07-07-2014, 04:30 PM
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Fearmongering about ending up in bed with a woman with a penis is one of the more prevalent forms of transphobia. I'm afraid I can't watch the video at work, but the article I read (which was very pro-Ray) seemed to say the punchline was "haha dude ended up with a lady who has a penis".
#4
Old 07-07-2014, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Odesio View Post
Harmless novelty song but I can't really blame transgendered people for being somewhat upset.
I think I'm with you on this. The song seemed to me pretty gender-identity-respectful throughout, and there was no suggestion that the adored woman in question was in any way considered "icky" or "dishonest" because of her identity.

It was more or less squarely in the venerable comic-song tradition of "singer is madly in love with wonderful woman but is devastated on finding out that for some reason she is unexpectedly off-limits for him". Whether she's your unrecognized half-sister as in "Elma Turl", or your captain's wife as in "Whale of a Tail", or whatever, it kinda sucks when the girl you're crazy about turns out to have an unexpected dealbreaker. And from the spectator's view, it's often kinda funny.

However, in today's culture there's a lot of blur between "I don't find penises sexually attractive, even on women, so that's a relationship dealbreaker for me" and "Women with penises are disgusting/unnatural/deceptive cheats who should be shunned and/or punished". So I can understand how some transgender people hearing the former sentiment are going to get uncomfortable echoes of the latter.

Last edited by Kimstu; 07-07-2014 at 04:45 PM.
#5
Old 07-08-2014, 10:55 AM
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Sorry to bump this, but I just listened to it, and can respond fully.

I still think it is transphobic. The punch line of the joke is how outlandish it is that women with penises exist. The guy falling for her and finding her perfect but for one thing is the framing, not the punch line. If it were the punch line, then it would still be funny if her "fatal flaw" were something more usual like "she doesn't like me." "Her penis is bigger than mine" is another line that shows that the joke is about how wild and crazy it is that some transwomen haven't had surgery.
#6
Old 07-08-2014, 07:17 PM
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Is "transphobic" now someone who doesn’t want to be intimate with a person with a dick? Call me transphobic then, because I wouldn’t want to be with that someone whatever the person goes by in the way of pronoun.
#7
Old 07-08-2014, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Taber View Post
Sorry to bump this, but I just listened to it, and can respond fully.

I still think it is transphobic. The punch line of the joke is how outlandish it is that women with penises exist.
I don't think it's clear that the song is treating her having a penis as outlandish.

You're right it wouldn't be as funny with most other "fatal flaws," but this doesn't mean a woman having a penis is being treated as outlandish. It's just not a thing that's expected to fill in the "she's perfect except for ____" blank. (Also, cute old dude suddenly saying "penis.")

If anything, there's arguably a pro-trans message here--nothing about her having a penis, according to the narrator, detracts in any way from her other attractive features.
#8
Old 07-08-2014, 07:45 PM
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I don't know if it's necessarily transphobic, but it's certainly gauche.

The transgender people I've talked to on this have opinions ranging from "storm AGT with pitchforks and torches" all the way to "OMG that's funny!" I haven't conducted a poll or anything, but my general feeling of my people (I love saying that) is "meh."

My personal opinion is more "meh" than anything else. I think RuPaul has created far more negativity and strife than this octogenarian doofus has.
#9
Old 07-08-2014, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Frylock View Post
You're right it wouldn't be as funny with most other "fatal flaws," but this doesn't mean a woman having a penis is being treated as outlandish. It's just not a thing that's expected to fill in the "she's perfect except for ____" blank. (Also, cute old dude suddenly saying "penis.")
The difference between unexpected and outlandish is a pretty thin hair.
#10
Old 07-09-2014, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Rune View Post
Is "transphobic" now someone who doesn’t want to be intimate with a person with a dick? Call me transphobic then, because I wouldn’t want to be with that someone whatever the person goes by in the way of pronoun.
+1.

I have no objection to anyone wanting to be treated as a woman even if they were born with a penis and still have it, but I have no intention of having sex with one and I would consider it arrogant, even dishonest, of them to assume by default that I would. Nor do I consider my viewpoint in the least out of the ordinary although I don't rule out the existence of plenty of people who think otherwise, and all good luck to them. If you want to bully me into more acceptable views by screaming "Transphobic!" at me then knock yourself out.
#11
Old 07-09-2014, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Malacandra View Post
+1.

I have no objection to anyone wanting to be treated as a woman even if they were born with a penis and still have it, but I have no intention of having sex with one and I would consider it arrogant, even dishonest, of them to assume by default that I would. Nor do I consider my viewpoint in the least out of the ordinary although I don't rule out the existence of plenty of people who think otherwise, and all good luck to them. If you want to bully me into more acceptable views by screaming "Transphobic!" at me then knock yourself out.
Who exactly are you arguing against? I seem to be the only one claiming it's transphobic, and I think I've been clear my problem was that the song treats women with penises as an absurdity, not that Ray has any obligation to have relations with her.
#12
Old 07-09-2014, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Taber View Post
Sorry to bump this, but I just listened to it, and can respond fully.

I still think it is transphobic. The punch line of the joke is how outlandish it is that women with penises exist. The guy falling for her and finding her perfect but for one thing is the framing, not the punch line. If it were the punch line, then it would still be funny if her "fatal flaw" were something more usual like "she doesn't like me." "Her penis is bigger than mine" is another line that shows that the joke is about how wild and crazy it is that some transwomen haven't had surgery.
I think you're reading too much into it. There wasn't any hateful component or ridicule of the woman herself, just a sort of dismay on the part of the song's author that this woman is perfect, but she's got a penis.

I'd be dismayed too; penises aren't something I find arousing or sexy (quite the opposite), and a woman with a penis is definitely not something I'm interested in.
#13
Old 07-09-2014, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Taber View Post
Who exactly are you arguing against? I seem to be the only one claiming it's transphobic, and I think I've been clear my problem was that the song treats women with penises as an absurdity, not that Ray has any obligation to have relations with her.
Understood, and I would think anyone who did think Ray had was demented. I've no reason at all to think you are, and my default assumption is that you're not.

I've not heard the song, but is it saying that the existence of the person is what's absurd, or just the situation the singer finds himself in? In the latter case I wouldn't think it was bigoted or transphobic, though I might well argue for "crass" given that, even if I had a thoroughly nasty opinion of pre-op transpersons, it would be the height of bad manners on my part to laugh and sneer at them.
#14
Old 07-09-2014, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by bump View Post
I think you're reading too much into it. There wasn't any hateful component or ridicule of the woman herself, just a sort of dismay on the part of the song's author that this woman is perfect, but she's got a penis.

I'd be dismayed too; penises aren't something I find arousing or sexy (quite the opposite), and a woman with a penis is definitely not something I'm interested in.
Well, sure. Lots of people aren't interested in lots of things. But this ignores the fact that - and please somebody correct me if I'm wrong about it - this is a fictional situation created for the purpose of being ridiculous. If I somehow found myself head over heels in love with a woman in the real world and suddenly realized that she was in fact biologically male, o dismay! What a complicated situation with real people and real feelings involved!

But Ray Jessel is a comic songwriter. This is not a thing that happened; it's a punchline. The dismay is prospective. It's all a vehicle for him to say "she's got a penis!" and for that to be inherently ridiculous, right? I'm not going to waste any calories trying to convince people on the SDMB what or whether or why they should be offended or render any opinion at all about who should be allowed to make jokes about what, but it isn't reading too much into it to acknowledge the glaring difference between making something up as an absurdity to be laughed about, and the response any of us might have if the (I assume rather implausible, without knowing the lyrics) scenario had really played out in the real world and a real person had experienced a feeling about it.
#15
Old 07-09-2014, 11:26 AM
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Doesn't seem any more transphobic than the Kinks' "Lola".
#16
Old 07-09-2014, 12:14 PM
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I thought it was one of the most hilarious skits I've seen.

The humor is not that she has a penis, it's that a decrepitly old man is singing a sweet song about a girl he likes that is perfect who he later finds out has a penis.

The transition from innocent old man to dirty little secret is the genius and the humor. Anyone offended by this missed the entire point and is simply seeking an excuse for recreational outrage.
#17
Old 07-09-2014, 01:06 PM
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Last week I took a new transwoman, another professional, to a day on the town. Despite looking *really* good and having a perfect female voice, she was so terrified it was heartbreaking. When she had gone out in her home town people who knew her had harassed, catcalled, shoved her, and finally threatened her life.

Later last week I talked to a caseworker, who told me she has nearly 30 transwomen locally who have been forced into prostitution because when they came out, their families threw them on the streets, their friends rejected them, and if they had a job they lost it. One was thrown out by her parents at age 12 with nothing more than the clothes she wore; she's been a prostitute for 7 years now, HIV positive and without any hope.

This week I spoke with a transwoman who just lost her job, fired because her boss told her flat-out "I don't want a trannie scaring off the customers." For her at least we have an attorney, but the maximum settlement she is likely to receive is about 6 months minimum wage pay. Meanwhile, she has no job, no insurance, and is staying at a shelter.

Today I spoke with yet another mom who has had to take her trans child out of school, because the harassment, bullying, and threats from the kids, and the lack of action from the school, has reached the breaking point. She now joins a local transgender homeschool circle, filled with kids who were bullied out of the school system.

These are the realities of my people. This is why some take offense at humor directed at us.

Because I've had privilege it doesn't hit me nearly as hard. But I understand why it does for others.
#18
Old 07-09-2014, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Taber View Post
The difference between unexpected and outlandish is a pretty thin hair.
They seem pretty different to me. Something can be both outlandish and expected, and something can be unexpected yet completely normal in itself.
#19
Old 07-09-2014, 04:21 PM
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It's expected that Bob, your racist uncle, will say something outlandish, but that's because it is common for racist uncles to say racist things. I am having a lot of trouble thinking of something that isn't unusual that would be surprising*. I know outlandish has the connotation of both unusual and bad, but I think bad is established given how many ways the song says that he doesn't like that this woman has a penis.


*actually my girlfriend gets startled when I enter the kitchen and she doesn't hear me coming. I'm not sure if that counts or is relevant.

Last edited by Taber; 07-09-2014 at 04:23 PM.
#20
Old 07-09-2014, 04:27 PM
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Can we all agree that if a transgender woman does not tell a man she is about to sleep with that she in fact has a penis, that such behavior is wrong?

Isn't is her obligation to tell the man that she has male genitalia?

Or is expected to discover a penis on women these days?
#21
Old 07-09-2014, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Stringbean View Post
Can we all agree that if a transgender woman does not tell a man she is about to sleep with that she in fact has a penis, that such behavior is wrong?

Isn't is her obligation to tell the man that she has male genitalia?
For the sake of argument... is she supposed to assume he doesn't know?
#22
Old 07-09-2014, 05:22 PM
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The whole situation seems like an unfounded fear based on ignorance. I know several trans people, I am part of a community that is very open to them, so there's plenty of chances for this to happen, and the "led on by a chick who secretly had a dick" has never occurred. I'd say I'm skeptical it has ever happened in the history of the world, but I know the world better than that. I'm sure something like it has happened a few times over the years.

So what we're left with is a situation that cis dudes seem unreasonably afraid of (if you think this song is bad, listen to Eazy E some time), but that nevertheless, if it ever happened, would be considered pretty absurd. The absurdity isn't in the simple fact that a woman had a penis, which anyone who is aware trans people exist already knows -- it is in the completely ridiculous and contrived situation whereby a cis man pursues a trans woman all night and somehow the topic of her having a penis never comes up until they finally get naked together.

So my take is that you could like (or perform) this song for completely harmless or completely bigoted reasons, and I for one refuse to assume bigotry unless there is no other explanation.
#23
Old 07-09-2014, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Taber View Post
I know outlandish has the connotation of both unusual and bad, but I think bad is established given how many ways the song says that he doesn't like that this woman has a penis.
I didn't listen to the song, but isn't it possible the "bad" thing about the woman having a penis is that she never told him, and he had to find out himself after a night of pursuing the woman and finally getting naked with her only then to discover, in the heat of passion, that he'd been misled?

I don't think the situation is nearly as common as ignorant guys think it is. Nevertheless, if it did happen, this straight guy would find it quite outlandish, and while not necessarily terrible, pretty damn disappointing.
#24
Old 07-09-2014, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DrCube View Post
The whole situation seems like an unfounded fear based on ignorance. I know several trans people, I am part of a community that is very open to them, so there's plenty of chances for this to happen, and the "led on by a chick who secretly had a dick" has never occurred. I'd say I'm skeptical it has ever happened in the history of the world, but I know the world better than that. I'm sure something like it has happened a few times over the years.
It happens. I know of a few cases, but it's in the tiny minority. I hung out with a another transwoman this weekend who was cruising bars to pick up a "stud." She never tells any of them before she gets them home - *then* she tells them. Or if all they want is oral or anal, she gives them that and they never know.

How, you might ask, could a guy have anal with a pre-op transwoman and never notice anything? It happens. Alcohol may be involved, but then most (all) of Billy Tipton's lovers never realized he had a vagina...
#25
Old 07-10-2014, 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by DrCube View Post
I didn't listen to the song, but isn't it possible the "bad" thing about the woman having a penis is that she never told him, and he had to find out himself after a night of pursuing the woman and finally getting naked with her only then to discover, in the heat of passion, that he'd been misled?

I don't think the situation is nearly as common as ignorant guys think it is. Nevertheless, if it did happen, this straight guy would find it quite outlandish, and while not necessarily terrible, pretty damn disappointing.
I only listened to the song once, but from my recollection it's never implied that she led him on.
#26
Old 07-10-2014, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Stringbean View Post
Can we all agree that if a transgender woman does not tell a man she is about to sleep with that she in fact has a penis, that such behavior is wrong?
Is argue that it's unwise, in that the woman is jeopardizing her safety, but I don't think she's done anything morally wrong. Finding an unexpected dick on a date is a legitimate deal breaker for a lot of people, but the actual harm to the surprised party is negligible at worst.
#27
Old 07-10-2014, 04:36 AM
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Is argue that it's unwise, in that the woman is jeopardizing her safety, but I don't think she's done anything morally wrong. Finding an unexpected dick on a date is a legitimate deal breaker for a lot of people, but the actual harm to the surprised party is negligible at worst.
Pretty arrogant to disregard other people views of feelings on the matter when you perfectly well know that your views are not even close to be being universally accepted.
#28
Old 07-10-2014, 04:56 AM
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Pretty arrogant to disregard other people views of feelings on the matter when you perfectly well know that your views are not even close to be being universally accepted.
I've got a lot of uncommon views. Which specific ones are you referring to?
#29
Old 07-10-2014, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Miller View Post
I've got a lot of uncommon views.
That may be so, but on the topic and in the forum you choose to be in here your views seem to be in the comfortable mainstream majority. Perhaps that is where such arrogance is born. Not being presented with alternative views one may get the impression that ones own views are the only ones possible, to such an extend that one is not even able to discern which are not universally held.

Otherwise I’d be interested to hear what views you have on the subject that are very uncommon on this forum, since the forum has a tedious tendency to the echo chamber of the likeminded.

Last edited by Rune; 07-10-2014 at 05:14 AM.
#30
Old 07-10-2014, 05:27 AM
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Thank you for that elaborate non-answer.
#31
Old 07-10-2014, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Miller View Post
Thank you for that elaborate non-answer.
Ok, no problem. Maybe you’d like to share your uncommon views on the topic so we may have something to talk about.
#32
Old 07-10-2014, 11:09 AM
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Okay, you're right. My views, as expressed in post 26, are utterly mainstream, and shared by the vast majority of human beings.
#33
Old 07-10-2014, 12:32 PM
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Okay, you're right. My views, as expressed in post 26, are utterly mainstream, and shared by the vast majority of human beings.
I don't think anywhere near a majority of heterosexual males agree with your view. If you are a transgender woman, it is your obligation to tell a man before you are getting naked in his bedroom that you have a penis. To do otherwise is, at best, inconsiderate.
#34
Old 07-10-2014, 12:56 PM
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I don't think anywhere near a majority of heterosexual males agree with your view.
You'll have to take that up with Rune. I'm just going along with what he says, to the extent of my ability to figure out what he's talking about.
#35
Old 07-10-2014, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Stringbean View Post
I don't think anywhere near a majority of heterosexual males agree with your view. If you are a transgender woman, it is your obligation to tell a man before you are getting naked in his bedroom that you have a penis. To do otherwise is, at best, inconsiderate.
Just how far does that obligation extend to the men? What should they be obligated to say before sex, in the interest of full disclosure?

I know if I were single and dating a guy I would need to know a LOT before I got to the point of sex. I'd need to have had a long-term relationship and got to know their family, history, etc. just like any normal couple does. I'm pretty sure by the time we had sex he would know exactly what I used to be, and I would know similar about him.

If on the other hand I let some guy at a bar pick me up, well, anyone with a brain ought to understand that whatever is in his pants is unknown. He could be a pre-op transman or drag king. So the situation could be called "Schrödinger's penis" - it both exists and doesn't exit until I unzip him and collapse the waveform in his pants.

Giggity.
#36
Old 07-10-2014, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Frylock View Post
I only listened to the song once, but from my recollection it's never implied that she led him on.
You are absolutely correct. The narrator in the song obviously considers it a dealbreaker that the girl he loves happens to have a penis---that's the "failure" of compatibility and the "flaw" in the relationship that he's singing about---but he never suggests that she was deceitful or dishonest about it in any way.

If other posters want to take this thread in the direction of discussing exactly when and how much a pre-op transwoman* should tell a heterosexual male partner about her genitals in order not to be dishonestly "leading him on", that's up to them. But as the OP, what I was asking about was whether respondents thought the relationship in the song was being described in an offensive or bigoted or transphobic way.


* And oh well, as long as we're discussing this, is anybody arguing that such an obligation also applies to a post-op transwoman? If a woman you're dating used to have a penis but now has female genitalia that you'd find pretty much indistinguishable from a ciswoman's, do you consider that she's honor-bound to take the initiative in telling you that before you have any contact with said genitalia? How about a woman born with some intersex physical characteristics, whether or not she's had surgery to modify them to conform more to cisgender norms?

In short, exactly what spectrum of present or past genital configuration do you consider it acceptable for a woman to possess in order NOT to be ethically obligated to describe that configuration to a man she's dating BEFORE he touches her genitals?


(And btw, as a cisgender heterosexual woman I'm squarely in the camp of "anybody might have anything at all in their underwear and nobody is obligated to issue a report on the subject to any potential sex partner beforehand, unless of course we're talking about something like an infectious disease that might actually harm a sex partner's health".

The flip side of that, of course, is that anybody is entitled to politely and respectfully end a sexual encounter as soon as they become aware that their potential sex partner's genitalia aren't the sort of genitalia that they personally happen to like, for whatever reason.)
#37
Old 07-10-2014, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Miller View Post
Okay, you're right. My views, as expressed in post 26, are utterly mainstream, and shared by the vast majority of human beings.
"Vast majority of human beings" - way to put words in my mouth. Why don't we try to limit it to what I actually wrote, specifically: your views on the topic which are uncommon on this forum.
#38
Old 07-10-2014, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
Just how far does that obligation extend to the men? What should they be obligated to say before sex, in the interest of full disclosure?

So the situation could be called "Schrödinger's penis" - it both exists and doesn't exit until I unzip him and collapse the waveform in his pants.
Schrödinger had a pussy too?

In all seriousness, I consider it more than a minor detail when one has the genitalia of the sex opposite of how they dress. It sounds like the sort of thing you personally would certainly wish to be aware of beforehand.
#39
Old 07-10-2014, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Stringbean View Post
In all seriousness, I consider it more than a minor detail when one has the genitalia of the sex opposite of how they dress. It sounds like the sort of thing you personally would certainly wish to be aware of beforehand.
Well, if you personally would wish to be aware of it beforehand, you are certainly within your rights to ask a potential sex partner about it beforehand.

What some people here are objecting to is the notion that women with male genitalia are for some reason ethically obligated to take the initiative in announcing that fact to a potential sex partner beforehand.


And as I asked a couple posts ago: Do you consider that such an obligation also applies to a woman who used to have male genitalia but doesn't now? Or to a woman who has, or used to have, some intersex genital characteristics such as clitoral hypertrophy?

Exactly where do you draw the line about the type of genitals a woman is allowed to have without being ethically obligated to issue a description of them prior to a sexual encounter?
#40
Old 07-10-2014, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by DrCube View Post
The whole situation seems like an unfounded fear based on ignorance. I know several trans people, I am part of a community that is very open to them, so there's plenty of chances for this to happen, and the "led on by a chick who secretly had a dick" has never occurred. I'd say I'm skeptical it has ever happened in the history of the world, but I know the world better than that. I'm sure something like it has happened a few times over the years.

It nearly happened to me.

My best friend used to be a woman named Lette. She was a lesbian. I met her in high school and we were best friends for about 10 years after we graduated.

Anyway, on to the story. Lette was throwing a surprise birthday party for her roommate. She took her roommate (a gay guy) out to a couple bars while I and a few other people setup with suprise party. The party had a mix of straight and gay folks.

Anyway, I this very hot woman came up to me and started flirting. We flirted for an hour or so until Lette and her roommate came back. We did the whole !Surprise! thing, sang Happy Birthday and did presents. After that was done I went back to flirting with the woman.

At which point Lette grabbed me and pulled me into the kitchen. She let me know that the woman I had been flirting with for the last two hours or so was physically male. She also let me know that this person had a history of picking up straight men and 'surprising' them with a penis after things got hot and heavy. Apparently it was her thing and she did it on a regular basis. There were, according to Lette, a whole boatload of seriously pissed off men in this woman's wake.

Anyway, after Lette told me, I let the woman know I wasn't interested. I wasn't particularly upset, though had it gone any further I would have been quite upset about the whole thing. After a while it became something of a joke between Lette and I.

Lette and her roommate didn't particularly care for this woman. Besides regularly pulling the whole 'Surprise! I have a Penis!' thing she was also, according to Lette, extremely biased and intent on 'wrecking' (getting them in bed in the belief that once she had them in bed they would change their sexual preferences forever) every straight male she came across.

I don't really care if a person is straight, gay, trans or whatever. However, it seems to me it is the responsibility of the trans person to be up front about the situation. At the same time, it is the responsibility of the straight folks to be respectful and honest as well.

Una Persson, you asked:

Quote:
Just how far does that obligation extend to the men? What should they be obligated to say before sex, in the interest of full disclosure?
Well, the expectation of most of people is that a person who dresses as a woman and acts like a woman does not have a penis*. So it therefore seems reasonable that a trans person should let their perspective partner know ahead of time of their status. Thinking 'Oh, well, they ought to just *know*' is lame. At the same time, straight folks have lots of things that they ought to let their perspective partners know ahead of time as well. For example, STDs and relationship status instantly come to mind.

As an example, I had a situation in which I was sleeping with a woman who I had met at a bar where my band was playing. She was married but didn't tell me. I was single and she said she was as well. I nearly got into a fight with her husband when he showed up at the bar a few weeks later, pissed at me for sleeping with his wife. I was quite angry about the situation and never talked to the woman again.

Slee

*If I phrased this badly please keep in mind no offense was intended.
#41
Old 07-10-2014, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
Exactly where do you draw the line about the type of genitals a woman is allowed to have without being ethically obligated to issue a description of them prior to a sexual encounter?
I draw the line at where I personally am comfortable. I would want to know if a woman I was about to hook up with had a penis.

And I will fight to the death that a majority of heterosexual males feel the same way.
#42
Old 07-10-2014, 03:53 PM
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I'm not sure exactly where the line is, but there probably is one. I think in most other contexts the vast majority of us would agree it's not OK to deceive someone in a sexual situation.
#43
Old 07-10-2014, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Rune View Post
"Vast majority of human beings" - way to put words in my mouth. Why don't we try to limit it to what I actually wrote, specifically: your views on the topic which are uncommon on this forum.
Why are you restricting it to this forum?
#44
Old 07-10-2014, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Stringbean View Post
And I will fight to the death that a majority of heterosexual males feel the same way.
That's fantastic for you.

Here's a concept you might want to familiarize yourself with.
#45
Old 07-10-2014, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Miller View Post
I'm only familiar with czarcasm around here. Thanks for the link though!
#46
Old 07-11-2014, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stringbean
I draw the line at where I personally am comfortable. I would want to know if a woman I was about to hook up with had a penis.
How about if she used to have a penis? Is it her responsibility, according to you, to tell you about it in advance of a sexual encounter, in order not to be "deceiving" you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marley23 View Post
I'm not sure exactly where the line is, but there probably is one. I think in most other contexts the vast majority of us would agree it's not OK to deceive someone in a sexual situation.
I certainly do agree that it's not OK to deceive someone in a sexual situation.

Where I take issue with you, and where I find your position even somewhat offensive, is the contention that a woman with a penis is somehow "deceiving" anyone merely by dressing and acting in a feminine way without explicitly announcing the fact that she has a penis.

Guys, the fact is that some women (an extremely small percentage) do have penises. That's just one of the (remote) possibilities that you should be prepared for in seeking sexual encounters with women whom you don't know well.

It is not a woman's responsibility to tell you in advance if she happens to have a penis. Any more than it's your responsibility to tell a woman in advance if your penis happens to be extremely small, or if you happen to experience a lot of erectile dysfunction or premature ejaculation, or you happen to be uncircumcised, or circumcised, or bisexual, or have any other genital/sexual characteristics that a high percentage of straight women tend to find unappealing.

Of course, as I said earlier, if you really feel uncomfortable not knowing in advance whether a woman you're getting physically involved with has a penis, you are perfectly entitled to ask her. (Or simply to make it clear that you're not comfortable with male genitalia in a sex partner.) And if she deliberately withholds the truth after that, then I will willingly join in with all the scorn and condemnation that deceiving someone in a sexual situation deserves.

But if you don't bring the subject up and then you eventually find out through personal experience that she does have a penis, I don't think she's the one who should be blamed if you get upset about it.

Some women have penises. They're not obligated to announce that fact in advance to every man who might otherwise run the risk of finding it out for himself. Get over it.

(I would also point out that a lot of this "problem" is due to the fact that trans people in general, as Una mentioned, are so unfairly and harshly treated in other aspects of their lives that many of them live in deeply closeted secrecy that their supportive friends and family must protect. If you want to reduce the chances of straight men being surprised by a penis on a prospective sex partner, then you should put some serious effort into creating a more inclusive culture where women with penises needn't fear having their gender identities more generally known in their social circles.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by sleestak
Besides regularly pulling the whole 'Surprise! I have a Penis!' thing she was also, according to Lette, extremely biased and intent on 'wrecking' (getting them in bed in the belief that once she had them in bed they would change their sexual preferences forever) every straight male she came across.
Now that does count as dickish behavior, if you'll pardon the pun. It's one thing for a transwoman to reject the unfair expectation that she should proactively describe her genitals to every prospective sex partner she encounters. It's quite another for her to deliberately ignore or discount the known sexual preferences of prospective sex partners because she arrogantly assumes that she knows what they'll like better than they do.

Last edited by Kimstu; 07-11-2014 at 09:16 AM.
#47
Old 07-11-2014, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
How about if she used to have a penis? Is it her responsibility, according to you, to tell you about it in advance of a sexual encounter, in order not to be "deceiving" you?
I'm reading this thread with interest, because before today I didn't realize that this would even be considered controversial. I say this not to be snarky, but because I'm very interested in hearing what people have to say about this.
#48
Old 07-11-2014, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
Where I take issue with you, and where I find your position even somewhat offensive, is the contention that a woman with a penis is somehow "deceiving" anyone merely by dressing and acting in a feminine way without explicitly announcing the fact that she has a penis.
I didn't take that position.
#49
Old 07-11-2014, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
I'm reading this thread with interest, because before today I didn't realize that this would even be considered controversial. I say this not to be snarky, but because I'm very interested in hearing what people have to say about this.
I've stated my thoughts. It's not controversial. He's expecting unreasonably accommodating behavior. He thinks a man should have to ask every woman he potentially will sleep with if she has a penis. Despite his own admission that the odds of it occurring are extremely limited.

Honestly, it wouldn't be a big deal if a woman told me outright. But if she waited until I found out the hard way (no pun intended) I would respect her much less.
#50
Old 07-12-2014, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stringbean View Post
I've stated my thoughts. It's not controversial. He's expecting unreasonably accommodating behavior. He thinks a man should have to ask every woman he potentially will sleep with if she has a penis. Despite his own admission that the odds of it occurring are extremely limited.

Honestly, it wouldn't be a big deal if a woman told me outright. But if she waited until I found out the hard way (no pun intended) I would respect her much less.
Wouldn't you love the follow up argument/sudden end to sex that would arise. "Why exactly did you think you had to ask if I have a penis???"

I suspect more women would be seriously offended by being asked if they have a penis than there are women with penises.
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