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#1
Old 06-26-2015, 10:06 PM
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Early 19th century comic strip character "The Yellow Kid" a racist portrayal of Asians... What?

In this "list" site the number 1 most offensive comic strip or comic book character of all time is .. "The Yellow Kid" for caricaturing Asians. I cannot find anything authoritative in the wiki or online that supports this contention that "The Yellow Kid" is Asian. At all. Is there any basis for this claim?

10 Most Inappropriate Comic Book Characters - 1. The Yellow Kid

Quote:
Seen In: New York Papers at the end of the 19th Century

Quote: “WELL HULLY GEE HERE’S TO YOU”

Here he is: not only the first portrayal of Asians in comics, but the first comic strip character ever, at least as most people define the comic strip.

It’s kind of amazing that a nonwhite got this particular distinction, but that’s comics for you. So progressive.

Joking aside, The Yellow Kid never rose above a sight gag you’ve already picked up on: his shirt or sweater contained all his dialogue in each cartoon where he appeared, though its creator, Richard F. Outcault, introduced more traditional speech bubbles to the field too. Believe it or not, this feature was popular enough to trigger the first comics circulation war, as the New York Journal and New York World ran competing versions of the strip for about a year.

Last edited by astro; 06-26-2015 at 10:09 PM.
#2
Old 06-26-2015, 10:28 PM
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Wikipedia says the titular "kid" was named Mickey Dugan, which doesn't seem particularly asian to me.

I'm pretty sure the people that churn out those "10 top.." type articles spend about ten minutes per article.
#3
Old 06-26-2015, 10:51 PM
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The Yellow Kid was yellow because the New York World could print in color and wanted to show it off. The Kid (the name of the strip was actually Hogan's Alley) was originally drawn with the nightshirt ranging in color from white to blue before Outcault settled on yellow.

Here's a look at some of the other residents of Hogan's Alley. I'd be more concerned about the character in the top left corner than The Kid.

The blog got one thing right, however. It is generally considered to be the first comic strip.
#4
Old 06-26-2015, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kunilou View Post
I'd be more concerned about the character in the top left corner than The Kid.
Exactly. If Outcault had meant the Kid to be Asian, he wouldn't have been subtle about it. He would have given the Kid slant eyes, buck teeth, and a queue.
#5
Old 06-26-2015, 11:05 PM
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The Green Hornet is a racist portrayal of Martian bees.
#6
Old 06-26-2015, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Biffy the Elephant Shrew View Post
Exactly. If Outcault had meant the Kid to be Asian, he wouldn't have been subtle about it. He would have given the Kid slant eyes, buck teeth, and a queue.
And an "L for R" accent. The "wacky dialect" the writer is talking about isn't Asian, it's working class New York: "dese" and "dose" and "dat."

It's a weird inclusion, not the least because T. Campbell is, himself, a very talented cartoonist. I'd have expected him to be a lot more familiar with the history of his field than he's displaying here.
#7
Old 06-27-2015, 01:09 AM
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Firstly, how is 1894 'Early 19th Century' ?

Secondly, I was always taught in school Ally Sloper was the first comic strip star. He appeared in 1867.
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#8
Old 06-27-2015, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller View Post
And an "L for R" accent. The "wacky dialect" the writer is talking about isn't Asian, it's working class New York: "dese" and "dose" and "dat."

It's a weird inclusion, not the least because T. Campbell is, himself, a very talented cartoonist. I'd have expected him to be a lot more familiar with the history of his field than he's displaying here.
He tries to defend himself in the comments (they're weird facebook comments, so you might need to be logged into FB to see them), but its pretty unconvincing IHMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell
Mickey Dugan was indeed his name, and that name does sound Irish, but there's a lot of visual evidence that says otherwise. He was given a wide, bucktoothed grin, prominent ears, a bald head (also found in other caricatures of Asians at the time, as well as the slightly later Ting-Ling Kids) and a weird-sounding dialect (albeit one meant to be endearing).

By the 1890s, the term "yellow" was very common as a descriptor of Asians: Kaiser Wilhelm had spoken of "The Yellow Peril" just a couple of years earlier. If anyone had referred to "that yellow kid" in 1893, the meaning would be as clear as "that black kid" today. Yeah, the name also refers to the yellow on his shirt, but that's the pun.

If that's not enough, note the similarities between the Kid and the two younger kids fighting next to him in https://webcomicoverlook.files.wordp...1896-3-15.jpeg, one of whom is sporting a Chinese ponytail. No, I could be mistaken about this, but I'm pretty sure it's what it looks like.
#9
Old 06-27-2015, 01:49 AM
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Who knew? I always thought the kid was asian. I never heard anyone say "He was not asian" even though, given the look, name and context, it might have been worth mentioning in 100 years.

He is dressed ethnically, and not like a white cartoon child (Buster brown, max and moritz)

Last edited by drad dog; 06-27-2015 at 01:53 AM.
#10
Old 06-27-2015, 01:56 AM
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What was the significance of 'Yellow"? It became integral to his, then the strips and then the newspapers, and then the whole style of newspapers identity?
#11
Old 06-27-2015, 07:14 AM
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The yellow ink was impressive. They started regularly printing him in yellow to show it off. And the Kid was so popular the Journal's identity became intertwined with him, so when people started criticizing the Journal for its...less than pristine journalistic standards, it was the Kid they invoked to identify the paper.
#12
Old 06-27-2015, 09:46 AM
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I seriously worry about the young (and I'm sure that list was written by a young guy). They've been taught that racism is everywhere, and so naturally enough they see it everywhere, even where it isn't. Jerry Seinfeld said in a recent interview that he doesn't do the college standup circuit any more. The audience takes offense at everything.
#13
Old 06-27-2015, 11:17 AM
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I left a reply over there based on some actual actual research. Heavy, backbreaking research consisting of walking over to my history of comics shelf and picking up a book.
Quote:
The Yellow Kid is not Asian. Who says so? The Yellow Kid. An undated strip appears on p.17 of A History of the Comic Strip, by Pierre Couperie et al. An actual regal Chinaman sits on a goat-drawn cart in the center of the picture. The words on the Kid's shirt read, "Me and Li has made a big hit wit each other. Say! He thinks I'm a Chinaman - don't say a wuid. I'm guin ter give a yellow tea ter him - I know my Q" Clearly he and the reader share the understanding that the Kid is not Chinese.

The yellow is also easily explained. On p.19, the authors explain that, "One of the principle characters in this series was a bald rascal [meaning no queue] with enormous ears and simian features, who always wore a huge white shirt. The World's mechanical staff wanted to color this shirt yellow, the only color that had not been perfected on their presses. On February, 16, 1896, the experiment was tried and was a complete success. The brilliant shirt attracted every eye, and the character, immediately christened the Yellow Kid, was to become the major attraction of the newspaper..."

Add this to the standard dialog on the Kid's shirt that reads exactly like a bad impersonator doing Edward G. Robinson and you have an airtight case against the Kid being Asian. Sorry.
#14
Old 06-27-2015, 11:40 AM
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This thread is more = " They've been taught that (PC) is everywhere, and so naturally enough they see it everywhere, even where it isn't. "




"Jerry Seinfeld said in a recent interview that he doesn't do the college standup circuit any more. The audience takes offense at everything." Jerry is not offensive, his jokes are old and he has entitlement issues
#15
Old 06-27-2015, 11:51 AM
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The Simpsons?
#16
Old 06-27-2015, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slithy Tove View Post
The Simpsons?
There's a "yellow peril" joke to be made here, but no way, uh-uh, count me out.
#17
Old 06-27-2015, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by aldiboronti View Post
I seriously worry about the young (and I'm sure that list was written by a young guy).
He's been working as a cartoonist since at least 1999, so probably not all that young.
#18
Old 06-27-2015, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
I left a reply over there based on some actual actual research.
Proving once again that you fight dirty.
#19
Old 06-27-2015, 01:37 PM
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Further documentation that the Kid is Irish: Here he is visiting Ireland, and his shirt says "I've got nerve but I've never took such a risk as to come to de land of me 4 fadders wit dis yaller dress on."
#20
Old 06-27-2015, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
I left a reply over there based on some actual actual research. Heavy, backbreaking research consisting of walking over to my history of comics shelf and picking up a book.
Here's a link to the illustration of the Kid pretending to be Chinese.
#21
Old 06-27-2015, 01:46 PM
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Interesting. He is "mongoloid" in look. I'm fairly sure that he was perceived as asian, after the strip ended and it entered into history, and lost the specific context. The kind of research possible now into cartoons wasn't possible before. That it needed to be done says something.
#22
Old 06-27-2015, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
Interesting. He is "mongoloid" in look. I'm fairly sure that he was perceived as asian, after the strip ended and it entered into history, and lost the specific context. The kind of research possible now into cartoons wasn't possible before. That it needed to be done says something.
And that someone in the industry parading around pretending to be a 10-list expert couldn't bother says quite a bit more.
#23
Old 06-27-2015, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
Interesting. He is "mongoloid" in look. I'm fairly sure that he was perceived as asian, after the strip ended and it entered into history, and lost the specific context. The kind of research possible now into cartoons wasn't possible before. That it needed to be done says something.
This is nonsense. He doesn't appear to be a so called "Mongoloid," now known as Down Syndrome. People with Down Syndrome often have epicanthal folds (the origin of the term) and small flat ears. The Kid has tiny very round eyes and projecting ears. As far as I know, he was never perceived as Asian until the article linked to in the OP. If you have a cite for this, please produce it. It didn't "need to be done," because quite frankly it's stupid.

Last edited by Colibri; 06-27-2015 at 02:00 PM.
#24
Old 06-27-2015, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
The kind of research possible now into cartoons wasn't possible before.
I'm not entirely certain what this means. What kind of research, specifically into cartoons, is available now that wasn't available before?
#25
Old 06-27-2015, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
Interesting. He is "mongoloid" in look. I'm fairly sure that he was perceived as asian, after the strip ended and it entered into history, and lost the specific context. The kind of research possible now into cartoons wasn't possible before. That it needed to be done says something.
I'd never heard or read anything that indicated that anyone thought he was Asian, until the article linked in the OP.
#26
Old 06-27-2015, 02:29 PM
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(Psst...late 19th century. Early 19th century is as factually inaccurate as saying the Yellow Kid was Asian.)
#27
Old 06-27-2015, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Miller View Post
I'm not entirely certain what this means. What kind of research, specifically into cartoons, is available now that wasn't available before?
In any case, it appears that Campbell's research methodology belongs to the time-honored tradition of "making shit up."
#28
Old 06-27-2015, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller View Post
I'm not entirely certain what this means. What kind of research, specifically into cartoons, is available now that wasn't available before?
You can research this and find a specific cartoon now, share it with the world, from your desktop. Remember when you couldn't do that? It wasn't that long ago.


I have no idea how many would've thought he was asian, and how many even knew of his existence. I thought so. I'm sure it isn't nonsense. Nothing to get vinegared up about.

If you ever watched Mr Magoo, or Dick Tracy cartoons then you know we are in different times and different assumptions are made, and racial caricatures were as common as dirt. A cartoon isn't a scholarly work. It is something that "appears to be something" as it's sole reason for existence. When it stops its public life contexts get lost and it might appear to be something else.
#29
Old 06-27-2015, 03:14 PM
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As even Dr. Seuss could turn out a horribly racist cartoon... which is, fortunately, almost unique even among his wartime political cartoons. He drew quite a few stereotyped/racist images of Tojo and the emperor, but this is, IIRC, the only generic slap at Japanese. It's a doozy, though.

Point being that most of Geisel's wartime cartoons were forgotten until about ten years ago.
#30
Old 06-27-2015, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
This is nonsense. He doesn't appear to be a so called "Mongoloid," now known as Down Syndrome.
You're going the wrong direction.

Mongoloid, as used by drad dog, refers to people from the continent of Asia. Other classifications are Caucasoid, Negroid, Australoid, Capoid, and Amerind.

People with Down Syndrome were called 'mongoloid' because their facial features were said to resemble those of peoples Johann Friedrich Blumenbach classified as Mongoloid.
#31
Old 06-27-2015, 03:41 PM
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When I was a kid I went with some other kiddies to the local library to see "Song of the South"
I would have tried to pay closer attention if I knew I wan't going to ever see it again.
I'm not that old.

If you've seen Chollie say "Missa MaGlooo!" as normal TV for kids you might think the Yellow Kid was Asian. He was very close in appearance.

I can see that if you don't remember not being able to disprove things by looking at the net, and don't remember racial stereotypes for kids, then you might think something other than what I thought. But that's just diversity.
#32
Old 06-27-2015, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
You can research this and find a specific cartoon now, share it with the world, from your desktop. Remember when you couldn't do that? It wasn't that long ago.
Okay, sure, there's greater accessibility to this stuff, but that's not "new research." There's nothing known today about the Yellow Kid that wasn't known twenty years ago, it's just easier to get at, is all.

Not sure how that's relevant to the discussion, except in as much as it makes T. Campbell's gaffe even more embarrassing, as the information about the character's creation, how he was viewed at the time, how he's viewed today, and what the contemporary racial stereotypes looked like were easily available to him, and all of which point overwhelmingly to the conclusion that the Yellow Kid was meant to be white, working class Irish.

Quote:
If you ever watched Mr Magoo, or Dick Tracy cartoons then you know we are in different times and different assumptions are made, and racial caricatures were as common as dirt. A cartoon isn't a scholarly work. It is something that "appears to be something" as it's sole reason for existence. When it stops its public life contexts get lost and it might appear to be something else.
A cartoon isn't a scholarly work, but there's plenty of scholarly works about cartoons out there, and about this cartoon in particular. For someone not particularly invested in comics and their history, it's understandable that someone might mistake the Yellow Kid as an Asian caricature. For someone who is a professional cartoonist, who's putting out (pseud-)journalistic articles about cartoons, that's major lapse. This information is, as you pointed out, not hard to find, and it's clear that Campbell didn't invest any time in actual research, beyond Googling a few images.
#33
Old 06-27-2015, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnny L.A. View Post
Mongoloid, as used by drad dog, refers to people from the continent of Asia.
I don't think so. I think drad dog was referring to the Yellow Kid's idiotic appearance (later adopted for Alfred E. Neuman). (And I'm well aware of the racial classifications, as well as Down's use of the term in his classification scheme for idiots, which included not only "Mongoloid idiots" but Ethiopian, Malay, and American Indian types. "Mongoloid" was still in regular use in this sense up until the 1960s or 1970s.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
If you've seen Chollie say "Missa MaGlooo!" as normal TV for kids you might think the Yellow Kid was Asian. He was very close in appearance.
Charlie from Mr. Magoo doesn't look the least like the Yellow Kid. Charlie, in his appearance and speech, actually has the Asian stereotypes that are lacking in the Yellow Kid. In particular, Charlie has slanted eyes, a queue, and small ears, and interchanges "r" and "l."

Last edited by Colibri; 06-27-2015 at 04:11 PM.
#34
Old 06-27-2015, 04:11 PM
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Sure, it's far easier to find certain cartoons today than ever before.

At the same time, the book I cited came out in 1968. The comments there now include a link to the actual strip I cited. It's from a - stop the presses - book about the Yellow Kid. The sort of thing you'd expect a cartoon historian to be aware of, if not have.

The saga of the two Yellow Kids is a standard piece of every history of comics. That he was Irish is a standard piece of every history of comics. Like everybody else here I never ever heard anyone refer to him as Asian. That's staggeringly wrong.

Always double-check everything you put up on the Internet, especially clickbait. I've found a zillion times that something I knew for sure was in fact wrong.
#35
Old 06-27-2015, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
The saga of the two Yellow Kids is a standard piece of every history of comics. That he was Irish is a standard piece of every history of comics. Like everybody else here I never ever heard anyone refer to him as Asian. That's staggeringly wrong.
It's also a standard piece in every history of American journalism. It's part of the evolution of newspapers as communication to the masses rather than just a wealthy elite; the development of color printing; the circulation wars between Hearst and Pulitzer; the era of "yellow journalism;" and probably several other topics I can't be bothered to look up right now. The Kid was prominently mentioned in my 1972 copy of The Press and America. It's not like someone had to be an archivist to figure out he was an Irish tenement-dweller.
#36
Old 06-27-2015, 05:43 PM
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Not to mention that it would have been impossible to have an Asian, even a caricatured one, be the star of a comic strip in 1895; that he wasn't the Yellow Kid until 1896, a year after he started and then only by accident; nor that the viewpoint character for a strip called Hogan's Alley had to be Irish and was even named Mickey Dugan. Hello, comic book guy, remember Dum Dum Dugan, the red-haired Irishman from Sgt. Fury's Howling Commandos?

And this from someone purporting to tell us that things were different in the past.

It's simply a weird mistake to have made.
#37
Old 06-27-2015, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
When it stops its public life contexts get lost and it might appear to be something else.
I think that's what happened here, but not in the way you think. People are still familiar with the "Yellow Peril" type characature of Chinese people, while the image of a mischievous, shaved headed Irish tenement kid in handmedown clothes has largely been forgotten. So Campbell assumed the Yellow kid was the former, and fired off his article without taking the time to even google.

But I don't think there's any question that's not how the character was meant or was perceived at the time he was created.
#38
Old 06-27-2015, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Simplicio View Post
I think that's what happened here, but not in the way you think. People are still familiar with the "Yellow Peril" type characature of Chinese people, while the image of a mischievous, shaved headed Irish tenement kid in handmedown clothes has largely been forgotten. So Campbell assumed the Yellow kid was the former, and fired off his article without taking the time to even google.

But I don't think there's any question that's not how the character was meant or was perceived at the time he was created.
True enough. He didn't do his research. But that look has taken on asian connotations for many many years now. His image in many of those cartoons is indistinguishable from an asian caricature of the 20th century. And that's when I heard of the Yellow kid, at a time when stereotypes were common enough as to be unnoticed. Broadcast and reception are not the same. Why is he wearing a dress?
#39
Old 06-27-2015, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
But that look has taken on asian connotations for many many years now. His image in many of those cartoons is indistinguishable from an asian caricature of the 20th century.
As has been pointed out a number of times, far from being "indistinguishable," the Yellow Kid does not look at all like the usual Asian caricature. He lacks all of the most common features of that stereotype.

Please provide a link to a clearly Asian caricature that actually looks like the Yellow Kid.
#40
Old 06-27-2015, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Claverhouse View Post
Secondly, I was always taught in school Ally Sloper was the first comic strip star. He appeared in 1867.
"Slope-er?" Anti-Asian racism! Though we know where WC Fields got his look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
Why is he wearing a dress?
Duh! To make it easier to go to the bathroom. The answer is a simple search away. You seem to have forgotten your own point that modern researchers can look up most anything in seconds.
#41
Old 06-27-2015, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Amateur Barbarian View Post
Dr. Seuss ... drew quite a few stereotyped/racist images of Tojo and the emperor, but this is, IIRC, the only generic slap at Japanese. It's a doozy, though.
http://cdn8.openculture.com/wp-conte.../jap-alley.png
#42
Old 06-27-2015, 09:55 PM
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Seuss drew many of what today would be called racist stereotypes, but every cartoonist of the time was also drawing them. The Japanese were our enemy, and it's typical in war to portray your enemy in those terms.
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