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#1
Old 06-29-2016, 11:28 AM
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How realistic is the open violence in The Sopranos?

So, I just finished watching The Sopranos (yeah, nothing like coming a bit late to the party, right?) Really enjoyed it, had no problem with the ending (I had a bigger problem with AJ suddenly becoming a major character in S6 (and thereby burning major screen time with his whiny crap) than I did with the final 15 seconds of the show), and I can see why it is considered an all-time great.

But... just how realistic is the open violence? We see a professor get assaulted and kidnapped in front of his class w/o consequence, guys driven down and beat up on the sides of busy streets, people get shot openly - in bars, convenience stores, restaurants, - while in a suburban neighborhood, Paulie just kicks the ever-living shiite out of somebody because of a lawn-mowing dispute, etc.

Was this a common occurrence in Northern New Jersey from 1999-2007? Did (and do) people look out their window in calm suburban streets, see their lawnmower guy get attacked, and say "mob dispute, better stay out of it?"

I'm inclined to say bullshit, it's all done for effect, that maybe a culture that existed in 1947 is being transplanted to 2007... but having never lived there, I wouldn't know for sure.

And if you want to bitch about the ending again, feel free. It's been awhile since it has been discussed and I'm sure the pain has bubbled up again.

Last edited by JohnT; 06-29-2016 at 11:29 AM.
#2
Old 06-29-2016, 12:36 PM
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Common - no, but that could be said of any TV show based on true stories. But it has, and still does, happen. Not so much the shootings, as they get investigated. And not only Italian mafia. The Orthodox Jewish mafia pay off the police so they can patrol their own neighborhoods in Brooklyn (of course, they don't consider themselves mafia, just upstanding citizens looking after their own neighborhood with police-supported citizen patrols that take care of certain problems 'in-house'). No one ever sees gang violence that happens right in front of them. Witness tampering is rampant in gang overrun communities, to the point that no one wants to be a witness.

I live one town north of two old-time mob towns - literally the places that the Goodfellas conducted a lot of their business. The numbers have been declining over the years, but rest assured that what might seem like over-the-top characters in The Sopranos are not.
#3
Old 06-29-2016, 12:48 PM
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I grew up in the very neighborhood the Sopranos were supposed to live in, about a mile from the house they used for exterior shots. I never once saw anybody get attacked without some kind of immediate consequence. Most of those were ridiculous teenage throw-downs at the diner that brought the cops in five minutes. It's possible that I somehow missed our lawn guy or mail carrier get curb-stomped, but unlikely.

Did I know a lot of people in my high school that had Tony Soprano-esque uncles? Absolutely. But the Mafia itself was just a vague idea in my head, certainly one I never thought about being close to home until the show aired. That probably says far more, however, about me being an oblivious teenager than it does about the actual discretion of any local gangsters.
#4
Old 06-29-2016, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Draelin View Post
Did I know a lot of people in my high school that had Tony Soprano-esque uncles? Absolutely. But the Mafia itself was just a vague idea in my head, certainly one I never thought about being close to home until the show aired. That probably says far more, however, about me being an oblivious teenager than it does about the actual discretion of any local gangsters.
I'm now picturing the famous episode where Tony is trying to kill a guy without Meadow noticing what her father does for a living, except you're playing Meadow.
#5
Old 06-29-2016, 01:35 PM
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I mean it's TV, but the Italian mafia does generate a lot of actual crimes.

If you look at Crime Maps of Richmond VA (I live right outside) you'll see little pins showing assaults, burglaries etc all over the place. In many years of time spent in downtown Richmond I may have seen a few times people fighting, usually in what appeared to be a young male mutual combat.

There's around 40 murders a year in Richmond, which would easily fill the episodes of the Sopranos (whose murders were spread around all of New Jersey and sometimes other places so not in one place), and I've certainly never witnessed a murder.

I guess my point is we know the mafia is real, and we know they kill people and run tons of illegal activities. I very seriously doubt they don't assault people all the time.

The DiMeo family in The Sopranos is based on the DeCavalcante family, which was the major Italian mafia family in New Jersey (which, like the DiMeo family, had an allegiance with the Five Families of New York.) In the early 2000s 20 of them were arrested for involvement in 14 murders, among other things, and that was out of an estimated 40 or some members who were "made guys" and a couple hundred associates. Subsequently that crime family appears to be pretty diminished now, and the New York five families are now more prominent in New Jersey

All organized Italian crime families in America are much diminished from where they were 40-50 years ago, but considering the known murders these guys still get charged with and all the criminal activities they're involved in I think while the Sopranos was clearly fiction and not meant to be a docudrama I suspect the real life mafia types during 1999-2007 left plenty of dead bodies.
#6
Old 06-29-2016, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
I'm now picturing the famous episode where Tony is trying to kill a guy without Meadow noticing what her father does for a living, except you're playing Meadow.
Nah, my dad was a smallish Jewish Banker Guy. Which is the other large demographic in that town.
#7
Old 06-30-2016, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Martin Hyde View Post
... I suspect the real life mafia types during 1999-2007 left plenty of dead bodies.
The "org" charts the feds put out, complete with "former" members with black tape on their pics, are amazing. The death rate in that business is stupefying. I don't understand why people join a group where the most likely outcome is being whacked and the next most likely is doing hard time.
#8
Old 06-30-2016, 03:31 PM
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Appreciate the great answers everybody - thanks!

I knew there was a whole lot of murderin' going on and I felt the show accurately captured what you said, ftg about the eventual hopelessness and stress of the life, but, in the same show the amount of daylight open violence, with no recon (there could be a cop around the corner), no forethought, and no consequences seemed a little far-fetched. After all, it's not as if Paulie was hard to describe or anything.
#9
Old 06-30-2016, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ftg View Post
The "org" charts the feds put out, complete with "former" members with black tape on their pics, are amazing. The death rate in that business is stupefying. I don't understand why people join a group where the most likely outcome is being whacked and the next most likely is doing hard time.
"All my life, I wanted to be a statistic...."
#10
Old 06-30-2016, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ftg View Post
The "org" charts the feds put out, complete with "former" members with black tape on their pics, are amazing. The death rate in that business is stupefying. I don't understand why people join a group where the most likely outcome is being whacked and the next most likely is doing hard time.
Generally, people think they're smarter, stronger, faster, or otherwise better than the guys getting knocked off. If you think you're smart enough to avoid the cops and strong enough not to be the one getting whacked, you can make pallets of money and wield immense personal power. It's very common for people to think that they will be the one to rise to the top and ignore the statistics.
#11
Old 06-30-2016, 04:57 PM
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I remember the episode where an eyewitness to a murder recanted his statement to the cops after reading about the Soprano Family in the paper. Seemed very believable to me.

A couple of thugs drive up over the curb in an SUV and then start kicking the shit of a guy right in front of you. Whatchu gonna do, whip out your mobile and dial 911?!?
#12
Old 06-30-2016, 05:00 PM
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I'd like to think I'd help the guy, but shit, I could at least run 10 seconds around the corner and then call 911.

And then take the guys picture - the Soprano's didn't have to worry about all these damned cameras everywhere. It's easier beating the shit out of people when everybody around you didn't have 5 megapixel HD cameras in their hands.
#13
Old 06-30-2016, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
Generally, people think they're smarter, stronger, faster, or otherwise better than the guys getting knocked off. If you think you're smart enough to avoid the cops and strong enough not to be the one getting whacked, you can make pallets of money and wield immense personal power. It's very common for people to think that they will be the one to rise to the top and ignore the statistics.
It's sort of the same reason people get PhDs in today's job market.
#14
Old 07-01-2016, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
I could at least run 10 seconds around the corner and then call 911. And then take the guys picture....
Just don't let them see you doing either.

Ooops! They'll see you when you're called to testify in court!
#15
Old 07-01-2016, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
Generally, people think they're smarter, stronger, faster, or otherwise better than the guys getting knocked off. If you think you're smart enough to avoid the cops and strong enough not to be the one getting whacked, you can make pallets of money and wield immense personal power. It's very common for people to think that they will be the one to rise to the top and ignore the statistics.
Agreed. And there is considerable evidence (both direct and implied) throughout the series that most of the characters are not very intelligent, despite their strong belief to the contrary.

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Last edited by tingbudong; 07-01-2016 at 10:09 AM.
#16
Old 07-01-2016, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Martin Hyde View Post
I mean it's TV, but the Italian mafia does generate a lot of actual crimes.

...
I'm not disputing anything in your post, but my impression of the OP was the focus on "open". I too found my suspension of disbelief tested in some of these scenes. One in particular stood out: the very out in the open beating of a guy outside his boring insurance company office park building, with plenty of witnesses.

I understand that there are neighborhoods where witnesses don't cooperate. But I don't think a suburban office park filled with professional office workers are one of those. Here we have an attempt to mow him down with a car and a beating to a pulp in front of a lot of witnesses. Is New Jersey really so lawless and corrupt that a bunch of 911 calls from the shocked colleagues (witnessing perhaps the most exciting thing in their lives) would have no significant consequences?
#17
Old 07-01-2016, 12:07 PM
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Probably the least realistic thing about the Sopranos is that much of the violence mentioned by the thread is carried out directly by the boss (Tony), consigliere (Silvio), and the various capos who tended to come and go throughout the series. The only major character on the show who would have regularly gotten his hands dirty IRL would have been Christopher, and even he would have delegated much more after getting his button.
#18
Old 07-01-2016, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Driver8 View Post
I'm not disputing anything in your post, but my impression of the OP was the focus on "open". I too found my suspension of disbelief tested in some of these scenes. One in particular stood out: the very out in the open beating of a guy outside his boring insurance company office park building, with plenty of witnesses.

I understand that there are neighborhoods where witnesses don't cooperate. But I don't think a suburban office park filled with professional office workers are one of those. Here we have an attempt to mow him down with a car and a beating to a pulp in front of a lot of witnesses. Is New Jersey really so lawless and corrupt that a bunch of 911 calls from the shocked colleagues (witnessing perhaps the most exciting thing in their lives) would have no significant consequences?
The professional office workers in the suburban office parks respond to intimidation and threats too. Mafia and gangs rely on their ruthlessness; they don't just threaten, they follow through. It doesn't take many coerced witnesses to keep everyone quiet. Charges will be filed, grand juries convened, but in the end cases get dropped because of this.
#19
Old 07-01-2016, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Driver8 View Post
I'm not disputing anything in your post, but my impression of the OP was the focus on "open". I too found my suspension of disbelief tested in some of these scenes. One in particular stood out: the very out in the open beating of a guy outside his boring insurance company office park building, with plenty of witnesses.

I understand that there are neighborhoods where witnesses don't cooperate. But I don't think a suburban office park filled with professional office workers are one of those. Here we have an attempt to mow him down with a car and a beating to a pulp in front of a lot of witnesses. Is New Jersey really so lawless and corrupt that a bunch of 911 calls from the shocked colleagues (witnessing perhaps the most exciting thing in their lives) would have no significant consequences?
This is precisely my question, thanks for the clarification.

Yes, the mob commits a lot of crimes, kills a lot of people behind closed doors, at night, while hidden... I get that.

The OP is about whether the out-in-the-open, in broad daylight with tens, hundreds of witnesses-type violence in the Soprano's is normal or exaggerated. I've spent a few weeks in NNJ (Nutley, Bloomfield, where my wife's family is from) and it didn't really strike me as Somalia or anything.
#20
Old 07-01-2016, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
This is precisely my question, thanks for the clarification.

Yes, the mob commits a lot of crimes, kills a lot of people behind closed doors, at night, while hidden... I get that.

The OP is about whether the out-in-the-open, in broad daylight with tens, hundreds of witnesses-type violence in the Soprano's is normal or exaggerated. I've spent a few weeks in NNJ (Nutley, Bloomfield, where my wife's family is from) and it didn't really strike me as Somalia or anything.
For the 10 weeks a season an HBO show runs, it makes it seem like this sort of thing is a weekly occurrence. It's not. It's an anomaly when and if something happens because, though dumb, they tend not to be that dumb...unless it was one of the Gotti kids down in Howard Beach. They would keep getting into trouble, it would make the local (Queens) papers, might make the local (NYC) news, but (a) no journalist/editor cared enough to follow up, and (b) no jail time, usually no trial. Obviously we're not talking about murder. And even with them, it was more like they might hit the news every other year or so rather than twice a season. This was a while back, though, and I'm pretty sure they moved away from here.

On the other hand, NY recently convicted a state senator and his son for the kind of things you see on The Sopranos, especially the no-show jobs.

Quote:
On one tape, jurors heard Adam Skelos insulting a supervisor on the no-show job by saying, “Guys like you aren’t fit to shine my shoes” and threatening to “smash in” his face.

In another, the senator (Dean Skelos) coached his son about the need for discretion amid the state capital’s ongoing corruption scandal, saying, “Right now we’re in dangerous times, Adam.”
The Mafia faces the same issues. Though they can surely f-up a witness' life, they are not the all-powerful organization anymore.
#21
Old 07-01-2016, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Driver8 View Post
I'm not disputing anything in your post, but my impression of the OP was the focus on "open". I too found my suspension of disbelief tested in some of these scenes. One in particular stood out: the very out in the open beating of a guy outside his boring insurance company office park building, with plenty of witnesses.

I understand that there are neighborhoods where witnesses don't cooperate. But I don't think a suburban office park filled with professional office workers are one of those. Here we have an attempt to mow him down with a car and a beating to a pulp in front of a lot of witnesses. Is New Jersey really so lawless and corrupt that a bunch of 911 calls from the shocked colleagues (witnessing perhaps the most exciting thing in their lives) would have no significant consequences?
Eh, I just rewatched the Sopranos a few years ago and I think that first scene of the series was one of the most egregious because it was in the middle of an office park and in broad daylight.

But something to also keep in mind is the vast majority of victims of these sort of things, were themselves involved in shit they shouldn't be involved in. They would likely refuse to give information to the police. An uncooperative victim usually results in the police moving on to crimes where the victim wants their help.
#22
Old 07-01-2016, 11:02 PM
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The sense I always got, when I lived in New York, was that Mob violence was widely ignored by law enforcement so long as the victims were themselves mobsters and assorted lowlives. If John Gotti had a rival whacked, the cops generally didn't care.

It doesn't follow that Gotti could beat or kill just ANYBODY with impunity.
#23
Old 07-02-2016, 12:46 AM
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I grew up in the northeast Bronx in the 1950s and 1960s. There definitely was a mob presence (and still is today). I never saw or heard of a public beating or shooting that was attributed to the mob. But you certainly heard of things that were carried out out of sight.

When my younger brother was about 17 he was hanging out a few blocks from our house with a couple of friends. He went home at midnight because he had a curfew. Not long after he left his friends got into some kind of altercation with a guy who was driving by and were both shot dead. There was insufficient evidence for the cops to go after the guy, but the rumor was that he was whacked a few months later because the family of one of the kids he killed had mob connections.

In the 1970s a body was dumped on the next street to my house. The guy had had his genitals cut off and stuffed into his mouth. The word on the street was that he had been messing around with the girlfriend of some mob guy and wouldn't lay off after having been warned.

A small-time mob guy who lived in my brother's apartment building, known as Louie Lump-lump, actually did commit a murder in public, at Rao's restaurant in Manhattan. But he was kind of nuts.

Last edited by Colibri; 07-02-2016 at 12:46 AM.
#24
Old 07-02-2016, 08:10 AM
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Well this just happened in a neighborhood in Brooklyn. An owner of a famous pizzeria in the area was shot in his driveway on a residential street. There is speculation that it was a mob hit, but it also could have been someone who just wanted the $10,000 in cash the guy was carrying.

I work near a storefront where a bunch of unsavory Armenian people congregate. Once, a group of them attacked a guy in front of the store. A traffic cop was nearby and he didn't do anything. My coworkers saw the event from our office window, but no one reported it. We don't need the extra trouble.

TV shows cannot be 100% realistic, but I think The Sopranos tried really hard to be as realistic as possible. Even if witnesses reported the beatings that happened in public, the victim would probably play down the violence to the police out of fear that other members of the mob would retaliate against him.
#25
Old 07-02-2016, 09:29 PM
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most Mafia hits are not done in public. And as stated above many are one mob guy killing another mobster. As they said in Goodfellas, your killer could very well be your friend or even a relative.
#26
Old 07-03-2016, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by astorian View Post
The sense I always got, when I lived in New York, was that Mob violence was widely ignored by law enforcement so long as the victims were themselves mobsters and assorted lowlives. If John Gotti had a rival whacked, the cops generally didn't care.

It doesn't follow that Gotti could beat or kill just ANYBODY with impunity.
I'm pretty sure that this murder is technically and permanently unsolved. Here you can see how they treat witnesses.

But as I've indicated all along, this is not run of the mill stuff, not like The Sopranos or any other TV show makes it appear. And the Feds did care about Gotti whacking a rival. Took a number of years, but Gotti died in prison because he whacked John Castellano (and others). They should have dumped his body in the ocean, OBL-style; instead he got a hero's send-off, much to the disgust of many.
#27
Old 07-03-2016, 11:00 AM
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Common - no, but that could be said of any TV show based on true stories. But it has, and still does, happen. Not so much the shootings, as they get investigated. And not only Italian mafia. The Orthodox Jewish mafia pay off the police so they can patrol their own neighborhoods in Brooklyn (of course, they don't consider themselves mafia, just upstanding citizens looking after their own neighborhood with police-supported citizen patrols that take care of certain problems 'in-house'). No one ever sees gang violence that happens right in front of them. Witness tampering is rampant in gang overrun communities, to the point that no one wants to be a witness.

I live one town north of two old-time mob towns - literally the places that the Goodfellas conducted a lot of their business. The numbers have been declining over the years, but rest assured that what might seem like over-the-top characters in The Sopranos are not.

Yeah, I still have to call bullshit. No offense, but I know lots of people in New Jersey and Long Island who come from "mob towns" and always talk up all the gang stuff that supposedly goes on. It's always "rumors of this" and "supposed mob connections".

Beatings, I can see no one really caring about. Particularly in communities with high crime rates.

Committing flagrant Sopranos style felonies publically with no repercussions? I don't think so.
#28
Old 07-03-2016, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers View Post
"All my life, I wanted to be a statistic...."
The killers walk-away line after killing "that guy" :

"He was always so good with numbers...."
#29
Old 07-03-2016, 11:30 AM
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a lot of mobsters who get sent to prison are there due to the RICO law and the FBI. The local cops are not involved in those cases. Of course there have been local cops on the take from the mob and even 2 NYC cops who were doing hits for the mob.
#30
Old 07-03-2016, 12:15 PM
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Committing flagrant Sopranos style felonies publically with no repercussions? I don't think so.
Or ones committed publicly, for that matter.
#31
Old 07-08-2016, 10:10 AM
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Eh, I just rewatched the Sopranos a few years ago and I think that first scene of the series was one of the most egregious because it was in the middle of an office park and in broad daylight.
I remember renting the video after hearing how great the show was and seeing this scene in the very first episode, thinking it was bullshit (which it was) because they would never attack a guy like that in a place like that. (which they wouldn't)

I quit watching because of that nonsensical scene BUT started watching it again, realizing that like every show, they over dramatize incidents to make it compelling (even though I and I think most people enjoy subtlety.)

Anyway, my answer to the OP is much of the OPEN violence is fake, would not happen like the show portrays it.
#32
Old 07-08-2016, 11:07 AM
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He was also just a gambling debt guy, there was no reason to attack him there and real mobsters wouldn't--they knew where the guy lived. But without rewatching it again, I really do think that's one of the most egregious examples of the DiMeo family doing violence in public. Most of their other violence occurs in places where they had a reasonable expectation of not being caught.

One of the other notable public acts of violence was when Corrado's two hired hitmen try to kill Tony. But that one actually makes sense--those guys are pure hired guns, not even "associates" of the crime family (because Corrado doesn't want them linked back to him), and killing a mob boss like Tony is a lot easier when he's driving around doing day to day chores than it would be in private--at his clubs, work sites, or home he has access to a lot of guns and usually associates to help him defend himself.
#33
Old 07-08-2016, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by D_Odds View Post
The professional office workers in the suburban office parks respond to intimidation and threats too. Mafia and gangs rely on their ruthlessness; they don't just threaten, they follow through. It doesn't take many coerced witnesses to keep everyone quiet. Charges will be filed, grand juries convened, but in the end cases get dropped because of this.
Sure, but that would presumably happen after the fact. That is, I can imagine that Tony sees some guy in the middle of a random office park, starts beating him up, some shocked office workers call the cops, and then a few weeks later all the charges are dropped, no one is willing to testify, etc. But (a) it seems awfully stupid of Tony to do that in the first place, and (b) unless Tony has literally pre-intimidated everyone in the entire state of New Jersey, it doesn't make sense that there would be no 911 calls, no cops showing up, etc.
#34
Old 07-08-2016, 09:27 PM
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Agree fully, MaxTheVool. In addition to exaggerating life, TV shows also tend to greatly compress timelines. Not necessarily a bad thing, as real timelines would not make interesting TV.
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