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#1
Old 08-07-2016, 05:12 PM
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Jeri Ryan and Kate Mulgrew

I've heard that there was "tension" between the two actresses and that in-fact Kate made Jeri's life hell while on set. The explanation Kate gives is that she didn't like the fact that this blond bombshell was brought on to introduce sex into the show. Seems pretty catty to me although she says it a bit more delicately. I even saw one youtube video of Ryan and Garrett Wang (Ensign Kim) doing some sort of panel and him breaking down in tears because he wanted to end the problems between them.

Does anyone know how true all this is and what sort of treatment Ryan received? Have they since reconciled?
#2
Old 08-07-2016, 05:19 PM
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I've never heard of any feuding between Kate and Jeri. I will say this though: Yes, Voyager obviously brought Jeri on as eye candy. But you know what? Jeri did a damn fine job of acting on that show.

Which is kind of unfortunate. Despite her well done performance, she was never given the respect she deserves because very few folks could see past the eye candy factor.
#3
Old 08-07-2016, 05:23 PM
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Yeah I agree she did a great job with the role and it was made clear that she was more than a pair of boobs.

Here is the mentioned youtube video
#4
Old 08-07-2016, 05:29 PM
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And one quote from an interview where she mentions it.

Quote:
How hard was it for you, personally, when, in the middle of the show’s run, Jeri Ryan arrived on the set to play Seven of Nine?

Mulgrew: I found that that was hard, Jeri notwithstanding. Certainly, I could see with my own eyes that she was a va-va-va-voom and beautiful-beautiful bombshell of a girl. Sexuality was brought into Voyager, and that’s what I resented. I chose not to use sexuality. I thought that if Paramount and UPN and Rick (Berman) were being exceptionally prescient and brave, they would give a woman a shot at commanding without sex. “Can we do this without sex?” There are always other ways. So I resented that and I was hurt by the immediate, extraordinary attention given to this character. The numbers went up. And I thought, “Ah, you can’t argue with a business decision and you can’t argue with sex.” That’s just part of life, but all of that is very difficult for a woman, particularly an actress like me. But it had nothing to do with Jeri.
Every time I've seen a mention approaching the topic she talks about how pretty Jeri was. But if it had "Nothing to do with Jeri" as it says above it seems that she was being purposefully hurtful to Ryan in order to protest against the studio types.

Last edited by drewder; 08-07-2016 at 05:33 PM.
#5
Old 08-07-2016, 06:08 PM
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I saw Mulgrew just a few weeks ago at the Montreal Comic-Con. She described misgivings about Ryan's casting for the reasons already described, but eventually formed a friendship with Ryan herself.

Personally, I didn't like Ryan's character because too many episodes relied on Borg technobabble and I was annoyed by the assumption that she had to learn to be "human" again. I'd've thought Vulcan society was a much better fit for someone of her temperament and talents.
#6
Old 08-07-2016, 06:43 PM
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Sorry I'm sort of researching this as I post. huffington post interview

Quote:
At an event a couple years back, Kate Mulgrew mentioned that there might have been some animosity between the two of you. Is that true at all?
[Laughs.] It was not a super-easy four years for me, I will say that. It does not stick out as a wonderful, wonderful work experience. It was tough. It was difficult.
The fact that she lists the entire 4 years as being hard plus the interview with Wang above makes me think that it wasn't just a passing thing just when she got started.
#7
Old 08-07-2016, 06:58 PM
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Bah. Nimoy and Muldaur brought sex to Star Trek decades earlier.
#8
Old 08-07-2016, 07:11 PM
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I agree with Kate's sentiments. I just don't think she needed to be a bitch to Jeri to get her point across.

I mean, look, I like me some eye candy. And I've been guilty of watching shows primarily for the eye candy alone. But Voyager in my opinion was not the place for it. Despite Star Trek franchise's past of objectifying women.

Last edited by Grrr!; 08-07-2016 at 07:12 PM.
#9
Old 08-07-2016, 08:19 PM
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Jeri Ryan and Kate Mulgrew

One of these days, my eternal optimism about thread titles like this will be rewarded.
#10
Old 08-07-2016, 08:30 PM
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And really...sexiness is not just a shiny catsuit. It's also attitude, and it would take just one line from 7 of 9 to kill any potential boner.

The Chakotay romance was shoehorned in poorly IMHO. Tom and Kes and Tom and Torres was much more believable. At least that had some roots. Now if Chakotay had constantly been championing her and was her buddy, I could see it.

Last edited by Dale Sams; 08-07-2016 at 08:30 PM.
#11
Old 08-07-2016, 08:53 PM
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I don't know if this is common knowledge or not but if not for Jeri Ryan we would not have President Obama. Jeri used to be married to an Illinois politician named Jack Ryan (no relation to the Tom Clancy character). Although they divorced in 1999, the records were unsealed in 2004 when Jack was running for a Senate seat. And in those records it was found that while Mr. Ryan had a kinky side his wife did not share it and did not wish to have sex in public at a BDSM club. Ryan dropped out of the race, clearing an easy path to victory for his opponent - Barack Obama.
#12
Old 08-07-2016, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by TonySinclair View Post
One of these days, my eternal optimism about thread titles like this will be rewarded.
First thing I thought was, slash?
#13
Old 08-07-2016, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DWMarch View Post
I don't know if this is common knowledge or not but if not for Jeri Ryan we would not have President Obama. Jeri used to be married to an Illinois politician named Jack Ryan (no relation to the Tom Clancy character). Although they divorced in 1999, the records were unsealed in 2004 when Jack was running for a Senate seat. And in those records it was found that while Mr. Ryan had a kinky side his wife did not share it and did not wish to have sex in public at a BDSM club. Ryan dropped out of the race, clearing an easy path to victory for his opponent - Barack Obama.
It probably wasn't a deciding factor. Obama had been leading in the polls even before the records were released.
#14
Old 08-08-2016, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
It probably wasn't a deciding factor. Obama had been leading in the polls even before the records were released.
Yes, but would he have still gotten seven of nine voters voting for him?
#15
Old 08-08-2016, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by drewder View Post
Here is the mentioned youtube video
I can't believe Garrett Wang was bawling and crying and crying. Seriously? It was really that bad? Or is he a little weird?
#16
Old 08-08-2016, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by levdrakon View Post
I can't believe Garrett Wang was bawling and crying and crying. Seriously? It was really that bad? Or is he a little weird?
Dude was already known as a major disappointment on the acting side when he was named one of the 100 sexiest men or some dumb shit. Honestly could have seen them killing his character off before that point, then of course they couldn't.

His IMDB profile is pretty thin past Voyager.

And wasn't he the only one who wanted to direct that they said no to?
#17
Old 08-08-2016, 04:21 PM
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I've only seen a few episodes of Voyager, of which I think only one had Jeri Ryan in it.

In all three, Janeway came across as a bitch. Whatever the writers were trying to accomplish with her character, they needed to stop. Moral quandary? Janeway will order an explicit and wrong resolution, with no particular argument behind it. End of episode. Whee.

All of the rest of the cast were somewhere between bland and annoying. The second in command of the ship would briefly seem human, but even he seemed pretty blah.

7 of 9's episode was clearly better than the rest. She seemed like a real character and wasn't unlikable. I couldn't care less that she was popularly good looking, that's not my style (Dax, on the other hand, rawr). And, for example, Whoopi Goldberg's character was (usually) a welcome addition to a TNG episode and she's not a potential lingerie model (no offense, Whoopi). I'm sure that very few viewers minded the eye candy, but she didn't make the show in the same way that Jennifer Love Hewitt (supposedly) makes The Ghost Whisperer. She genuinely appears to have been the only good thing on the show, what she looked like withstanding.

And if Mulgrew had an issue with a casting decision, that had nothing to do with the actor brought in for the part. She should have taken it out on the producers, or just been happy to have the show leave the cutting block.

ETA: Whoops, I forgot about the doctor. He was good. If the show had just been the Doc and 7 of 9, it might have been a hit.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 08-08-2016 at 04:22 PM.
#18
Old 08-08-2016, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
ETA: Whoops, I forgot about the doctor. He was good. If the show had just been the Doc and 7 of 9....
My recollection is it was, the last few seasons. Seriously they should have just renamed it Star Trek: 7 of 9.
#19
Old 08-08-2016, 05:32 PM
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I didn't watch much of Voyager either. But my understanding is they set it up with a concept and then abandoned the concept, which pretty much left the series floundering.

The original concept was supposed to be about how two hostile groups were forced to work together in order to survive with limited resources. Lots of potential plotlines there as the two groups struggled for supremacy while also trying to scrounge up enough resources to stay alive.

But apparently this concept was quickly dropped. Any conflict between the crew members quickly disappeared, there were never any serious supply issues, the ship re-established communications with the Federation and found various shortcuts to get them home quicker. The series became a fairly routine Star Trek series.
#20
Old 08-08-2016, 05:39 PM
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To be fair, they only re-established contact with the Federation in season six, and then only for a few minutes of subspace radio per day.

It was a shame that the Maquis/Federation conflict was essentially dropped after the first few episodes. And of course there was the narrative problem with Voyager somehow regularly destroying shuttlecraft and using up photon torpedoes without seeming to run out. They did keep track of this stuff early on but gave it up pretty soon.

And Chakotay was the most useless character in Star Trek history, even including Deanna Troi.
#21
Old 08-08-2016, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by DWMarch View Post
I don't know if this is common knowledge or not but if not for Jeri Ryan we would not have President Obama. Jeri used to be married to an Illinois politician named Jack Ryan (no relation to the Tom Clancy character). Although they divorced in 1999, the records were unsealed in 2004 when Jack was running for a Senate seat. And in those records it was found that while Mr. Ryan had a kinky side his wife did not share it and did not wish to have sex in public at a BDSM club. Ryan dropped out of the race, clearing an easy path to victory for his opponent - Barack Obama.
As a Star Trek fan I love telling this story.
#22
Old 08-08-2016, 06:58 PM
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Probably the worst case of pandering on "Voyager"...or the entire "Star Trek" franchise was having Seven of Nine rassle The Rock.

Too bad they couldn't have given Janeway a husband..maybe a short, badly dressed guy who smokes cigars, is absent minded and asks a lot of annoying questions.
#23
Old 08-08-2016, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
But apparently this concept was quickly dropped. Any conflict between the crew members quickly disappeared, there were never any serious supply issues, the ship re-established communications with the Federation and found various shortcuts to get them home quicker. The series became a fairly routine Star Trek series.
They did resolve the conflicts between the crews pretty quickly, making it basically only one crewperson who was a problem. They didn't get contact with the Federation for a long time, but they did do a lot of TNG-lite episodes. This actually improved when they brought Seven of Nine on board, though, since the show focused on her, and her conflict with the rest of the crew.

And, yeah, they were going to make it a show with limited supplies, but didn't stick with that, either.

Still, it's not as bad as people say.
#24
Old 08-08-2016, 07:30 PM
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Still, it's not as bad as people say.
That's true, and it's aged a lot better than TOS and TNG and a lot of other science fiction shows.

DS9 is still the best.
#25
Old 08-08-2016, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by friedo View Post
It was a shame that the Maquis/Federation conflict was essentially dropped after the first few episodes. And of course there was the narrative problem with Voyager somehow regularly destroying shuttlecraft and using up photon torpedoes without seeming to run out. They did keep track of this stuff early on but gave it up pretty soon.
This Youtuber kept track...

The definitive Voyager torpedo inventory log
#26
Old 08-08-2016, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim's Son View Post
Too bad they couldn't have given Janeway a husband..maybe a short, badly dressed guy who smokes cigars, is absent minded and asks a lot of annoying questions.
Just one other thing is bothering me about that. It's probably nothing, but where do you suppose he could find parts for an old Peugeot in the Delta Quadrant?
#27
Old 08-09-2016, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
Dude was already known as a major disappointment on the acting side when he was named one of the 100 sexiest men or some dumb shit. Honestly could have seen them killing his character off before that point, then of course they couldn't.

His IMDB profile is pretty thin past Voyager.

And wasn't he the only one who wanted to direct that they said no to?
As I understand it until he was named sexiest man he was the one who was going to leave the show to be replaced by 7.
#28
Old 08-09-2016, 02:31 AM
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Janeway became very supportive of 7 of 9 in the later seasons. Encouraging her in her quest to rediscover her humanity. But the characters also clashed because 7 of 9 wanted to do things her own way.

I think 7 of 9's best episode was a flashback episode where she and a few other Borg get standard on a planet. Cut off from the collective, they begin remembering their lives before assimilation. 7 of 9 freaks out and... turns on them.
#29
Old 08-09-2016, 02:51 AM
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I guess it says a lot that any personal issues between Ryan and Mulgrew weren't noticeable on screen.

Always find it odd when people complain that 7of 9 was too sexy. She looked sexy. But her character was ice cold, aloof, and absolutely nonsexual. I'd hug a shark before I'd hug her.
#30
Old 08-09-2016, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
I guess it says a lot that any personal issues between Ryan and Mulgrew weren't noticeable on screen.

Always find it odd when people complain that 7of 9 was too sexy. She looked sexy. But her character was ice cold, aloof, and absolutely nonsexual. I'd hug a shark before I'd hug her.
That's the limitation of prime-time television. They could make her look as sexual as they wanted but forget about following through with any kind of sexuality. Heck, there was an episode where she bluntly asks Harry if he wanted to "copulate" and he immediately became a shy stammering schoolboy.
#31
Old 08-09-2016, 09:21 AM
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I'd hug a shark before I'd hug her.
But that shark would be the most exciting hug of your life!
#32
Old 08-09-2016, 10:16 AM
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Really? I have no dog in this hunt, but I always assumed that 7 of 9 was meant to be the sci-fi/Star Trek version of a "Hitchcock Blonde" - icy, with her hair up, but looking attractive in her business attire - and guys are supposed to think they are the ones who can melt her icy exterior and get her to let her hair down.

You aren't supposed to hug the shark; you are supposed to be the One Man(tm) who can turn that shark in to a Real Girl(tm).

With changing views towards the Male Gaze and objectification of women, I suspect this stereotype will be less used.
#33
Old 08-09-2016, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
They did resolve the conflicts between the crews pretty quickly, making it basically only one crewperson who was a problem. They didn't get contact with the Federation for a long time, but they did do a lot of TNG-lite episodes. This actually improved when they brought Seven of Nine on board, though, since the show focused on her, and her conflict with the rest of the crew.

And, yeah, they were going to make it a show with limited supplies, but didn't stick with that, either.

Still, it's not as bad as people say.
In my mind, there's a sort of utopian-Trek vision that apparently the showrunners and producers can't quite shake. Pretty much EVERY series, save possibly Enterprise suffered from it, including ones that never should have been close to it, like Voyager.

Voyager should have been a show where the crew had to eat weird Delta Quadrant food, fix up their ship with weird semi-functional technology, and deal with crew losses and potentially recruiting natives as they go, issues from being so far from home, and the lingering Federation/Maquis conflict that would almost certainly still be fresh for the first season or two.

They had a huge opportunity to have multiple sources of conflict- internal (technology, interpersonal) and external (other races, etc...)

But instead, it became just another Trek show, just set far from home, and with everyone neatly in uniform, and everything neatly fixed and Starfleet-spec. I watched it all the way through, but I can't say it's one I think back to or really would care to revisit later, unlike TNG or Enterprise.
#34
Old 08-09-2016, 11:16 AM
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Back to the thread topic, I've heard/seen a few comments on this topic from Ryan, and Mulgrew's comments about it having "nothing to do" with Ryan personally are bullshit. Mulgrew essentially hazed her and Ryan said she was sick with nerves and dreaded coming in to work for much of her time on Voyager.

She did, however, say it got better once she started dating Brannon Braga.
#35
Old 08-09-2016, 11:25 AM
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That's the limitation of prime-time television. They could make her look as sexual as they wanted but forget about following through with any kind of sexuality.
Which led to, IMVHO, the very very worst episode of Voyager (I saw maybe two dozen of them, randomly.)

Janeway and Chakotay land on planet. J&C come down with evil virus that is not curable and would kill some large portion of the crew. J&C are beamed down a a complete set of survival gear and Voyager sails away. J&C spend several months setting up housekeeping. J&C finally exchange a Meaningful Look... and Voyager rides over the horizon, having found a cure for the virus. Tag has everyone back on the bridge without a second mention of J&C's months together or the Meaningful Look. Sail into credits.

Jesus. I mean, it was an encapsulated series, but this one tops all others I know of. Just ONE MORE glance between them back on the bridge would have undone the damage.
#36
Old 08-09-2016, 01:30 PM
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Really? I have no dog in this hunt, but I always assumed that 7 of 9 was meant to be the sci-fi/Star Trek version of a "Hitchcock Blonde" - icy, with her hair up, but looking attractive in her business attire - and guys are supposed to think they are the ones who can melt her icy exterior and get her to let her hair down.

You aren't supposed to hug the shark; you are supposed to be the One Man(tm) who can turn that shark in to a Real Girl(tm).

With changing views towards the Male Gaze and objectification of women, I suspect this stereotype will be less used.
I hadn't made this connection before. But, you're absolutely right. Her character makes much more sense now.

Mulgrew is very lucky they added this character. It gave the show a much needed mid series rating boost. Probably extending the show's life by at least 2 seasons.
#37
Old 08-09-2016, 01:48 PM
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Which is kind of unfortunate. Despite her well done performance, she was never given the respect she deserves because very few folks could see past the eye candy factor.
Including the people marketing the show. Her actual role was much more than eye candy, but you wouldn't have known it from some of the promos they aired.
#38
Old 08-09-2016, 01:56 PM
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I'd have to side against Mulgrew on this. Not just in Voyager, but throughout her career she's never played on her sexuality, and she is definitely attractive (or was). As an actor you're expected to use everything in your toolbox and, male or female, sexiness is one of those things, so there's nothing wrong with that. She made Janaway so asexual as to be unlikable. Plus she was so adamant in always being 'as strong as any male Capt' and never showing the least bit of feminine vulnerability it made her come across as a secretly unconfident, disingenuous poser. To keep up appearances, rather than ever seem indecisive or cautious, she would make rash, bravado-laden, premature decisions. Which were almost always wrong!

Seven of Nine was sexy, but for me she was much more than that. She was the voice of reason amongst idiots. She was the only cast member who I would have had any confidence in when stuck in a survival situation:
  • Chakotay- A well meaning but ultimately useless milquetoast flunky.
  • Harry Kim- A scared little wuss.
  • Tuvok- A full-blooded Vulcan so devoid of any emotion I couldn't have cared less if he died.
  • Tom Paris- Not only an incompetent and reckless idiot but arrogantly proud of it as well!
  • Torres- Exactly what you'd expect from a half Klingon/Human woman: A miserable bitch with constant PMS.
  • Neelix- Star Trek's goofball neighbor, worthless comedy relief (and ten times dumber than Art Carney's Ed Norton ever was).
  • The Doctor- Halfway decent character, but again mostly comedy relief, only good in small amounts.
Jeri Ryan played a role similar to Jolene Bialok's T'pol on Enterprise, she was a sexy Spock. And unlike Tuvok, because she was human she slowly became more and more emotional as she de-Borg-ified, but could still make great use of her cold logic.

Last edited by Hail Ants; 08-09-2016 at 01:57 PM.
#39
Old 08-09-2016, 02:31 PM
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One thing during the research I learned about Mulgrew that was interesting is that in her first role she got pregnant by one of the shows producers and she gave birth on screen and then she gave up the baby to a catholic adoption agency and was back on set 2 days later. On the show she actually had to keep acting with a "stunt baby" which had to have been somewhat heartbreaking. She apparently regretted the choice almost immediately but the adoption agency would not reveal where the baby was and when she was on voyager she hired 3 private detectives to track her baby down which they eventually did.

Not really related to the op but I wonder if the experience might have been somewhat related to her lack of sexuality onscreen (although she did go on to have two boys so she did have at least some sexuality off-screen)
#40
Old 08-12-2016, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Amateur Barbarian View Post
Which led to, IMVHO, the very very worst episode of Voyager (I saw maybe two dozen of them, randomly.)

Janeway and Chakotay land on planet. J&C come down with evil virus that is not curable and would kill some large portion of the crew. J&C are beamed down a a complete set of survival gear and Voyager sails away. J&C spend several months setting up housekeeping. J&C finally exchange a Meaningful Look... and Voyager rides over the horizon, having found a cure for the virus. Tag has everyone back on the bridge without a second mention of J&C's months together or the Meaningful Look. Sail into credits.

Jesus. I mean, it was an encapsulated series, but this one tops all others I know of. Just ONE MORE glance between them back on the bridge would have undone the damage.
Sorry the worst episode was when Janeway and Paris were "evolved" into lizards and had babies together.
#41
Old 08-12-2016, 04:35 AM
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Voyager has some good episodes. But, they were overshadowed by many more poor ones.
#42
Old 08-12-2016, 09:09 AM
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Sorry the worst episode was when Janeway and Paris were "evolved" into lizards and had babies together.
IMO, that's even worse than Spock's Brain.

What's the consensus on the Warp 10=lizard "evolution" being the worst ST episode of all the series?
#43
Old 08-12-2016, 09:16 AM
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gets my vote
#44
Old 08-12-2016, 10:04 AM
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I actually like Spocks Brain. Its in the so bad its good category and the actors nailed it.
#45
Old 08-12-2016, 10:11 AM
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gets my vote
Same here.
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#46
Old 08-12-2016, 10:28 AM
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IMO, that's even worse than Spock's Brain.

What's the consensus on the Warp 10=lizard "evolution" being the worst ST episode of all the series?
I remember the ep when the crew got devolved into various critters. Oh wait. That was a TNG ep, wasn't it? I don't remember this lizard episode. Huh, thought I'd seen them all. Maybe my brain blocked it out.

I saw Spock's Brain when I was a kid, and didn't think it was worse than any other ep.
#47
Old 08-12-2016, 10:58 AM
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I remember the ep when the crew got devolved into various critters. Oh wait. That was a TNG ep, wasn't it? I don't remember this lizard episode. Huh, thought I'd seen them all. Maybe my brain blocked it out.

I saw Spock's Brain when I was a kid, and didn't think it was worse than any other ep.
You're right, that's a TNG episode. I don't remember the name of it, but I think Riker devolved into some proto-human/homo erectus/neanderthalis/unspecified kind of creature.

Spock's Brain didn't have to be as bad as it is, if not for the line, "Brain and brain! What is brain?!"

One of my favorite TOS episodes has been consistently ranked near the bottom through the years: Spectre of the Gun. It was third season, and lacked budget, but hey, it was the OK Corral, which made it cool. And the Earps were beautifully deadpan in their delivery. "That jokes all over town," or something.
#48
Old 08-12-2016, 11:04 AM
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So the lizard ep is TNG, leaving the "Janeway and Chakotay almost kiss after six months of being Adam and Eve" as the Voyager worst?
#49
Old 08-12-2016, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Amateur Barbarian View Post
So the lizard ep is TNG, leaving the "Janeway and Chakotay almost kiss after six months of being Adam and Eve" as the Voyager worst?
No, the "lizard episode" (actual title: "Threshold") is a Voyager episode. Paris and Janeway "evolve" into lizards, caused by breaking the Warp 10 barrier. At the end, they get better, but not before they apparently mate and leave behind some younguns.

The TNG de-volving episode is called "Genesis." It is also bad.

No list of bad episodes could be complete without the Original Series' "The Way to Eden" (otherwise known as the Space Hippies episode). Almost unwatchable.
#50
Old 08-12-2016, 12:22 PM
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I might be the only person in this star system who likes Masks and The Royale, commonly ranked among the worst TNG episodes.

But Genesis, Threshold and Spock's Brain really have no redeeming qualities at all.
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