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#1
Old 08-31-2001, 01:22 AM
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In Steven Speilberg's "Schindler's List", I seem to recall Nazi party members wearing a uniform collar badge depicting four black columns, in a slightly offset pattern. I couldn't find it when searching for "Nazi symbols" but I think it might be similar if not the same as the symbol used by the punk rock group Black Flag. Please see the symbol on one of their albums:

http://gs.cdnow.com/graphics/COVERAR...2/00198832.jpg

Does anybody know the origin of either of these symbols, or if they are the same?

Thanks for your input.
#2
Old 08-31-2001, 01:44 AM
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Well, Black Flag's was designed by Greg Ginn's brother who went by the name Raymond Pettibon. It was supposed to be a stylized rippling black flag, the flag of anarchy.

There's another thread around here about when you realized you were old. How about right now, when I think about the first Black Flag album coming out in '79?
#3
Old 08-31-2001, 01:53 AM
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Black Flag is about as far from skinhead neonazi punk as you can get. I assure you that the four bars symbol has nothing to do with Nazis. I'm not sure exactly what symbol you saw in the movies, but it was probably the "SS Runes" depicted as first symbol on this page:
http://eliteforcesofthethirdreic...t/coll_pat.htm
If you were watching Schindler's List, you were mostly watching the Waffen SS. If it wasn't on that page, it wasn't on a Waffen SS uniform collar.
According to this article:
http://laweekly.com/ink/01/31/2001:-babcock.shtml
Quote:
One of Greg Ginn’s younger brothers was Raymond Pettibon, an artist who specialized in chilly one-panel comic-book-style drawings with unsettling captions. Pettibon came up with the name Black Flag, as well as the band’s logo and its marvelously simple emblem: an unfurled flag broken in three so that it appeared as four solid vertical black bars. The “four bars” was perfect for graffiti.
#4
Old 08-31-2001, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Black Flag is about as far from skinhead neonazi punk as you can get. I assure you that the four bars symbol has nothing to do with Nazis. I'm not sure exactly what symbol you saw in the movies, but it was probably the "SS Runes" depicted as first symbol on this page:
http://eliteforcesofthethirdreic...t/coll_pat.htm
Thank you Chas.E, the SS badge at the above link is most certainly what I mis-interpreted as four staggered columns. (It should have been more obvious to me, really.)

I'm also very sorry to have mistakenly suggested that it *might* be the same as the logo used by the band Black Flag. Although I never bought any of their albums, that simple design impressed me so much that many years later I instantly remembered it when watching "Schindler's List". Thank you for correcting my mistake.
#5
Old 08-31-2001, 04:55 AM
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Nothing to be sorry about, it's a natural enough mistake if you haven't seen the SS logo in that configuration before, especially in a quick glance on a TV screen.
#6
Old 08-31-2001, 10:00 AM
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Very relieved

I was worried for a moment that Henry Rollins and the
rest were insane, punk, musclebound, slamdancing racists. I can now go back to listening to their albums content that they are insane, punk, musclebound, slamdancing nice guys. For a minute, "My War" took on a whole new meaning.

On a serious note, I would be shocked to learn that Rollins and his associates were bigots of any kind. I just can't picture him lying in wait to ambush a goup of Jews. On the other hand, it's easy to picure him lying in wait to ambush a bunch of skin heads.
#7
Old 08-31-2001, 01:51 PM
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Re: Very relieved

Quote:
Originally posted by DocCathode
On the other hand, it's easy to picure him lying in wait to ambush a bunch of skin heads.
No way.. The main reason I finally decided to move out of LA in the post-Riots era was because of an anti-violence rant Rollins did. I saw him rant on the old Dennis Miller talk show, he was going off about how his roommate and band member had been killed in a random robbery on the way back from grocery store, and that life in LA had become too violent, you only had to be in the wrong place at the wronge time and you're dead. It was such a moment of clarity, probably both for me AND Rollins, I never forgot it. And I got the hell out of there.
And yeah, the four bars logo has does play off the SS logo, that's one of the things that makes it powerful, to subvert a symbol of hate and use it for more positive ends.
#8
Old 08-31-2001, 02:43 PM
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Nice one, Chas.E.

On a related note, I think that Fear can be safely tucked away in the "parody" file.

At least I hope so.
#9
Old 08-31-2001, 04:30 PM
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A lot of those old school bands played around with Nazi imagery (Sid Vicious immediately comes to mind... Fear too) in an effort to shock and perhaps subvert.
As for when I discovered I was old... the Pixies were a band that I always sort of mentally classified as a "new" band, until I came to the realization that not only weren't they "new" anymore, but they had also been broken up for nearly a decade.
Finally, if you never bought a Black Flag album, may I recommend "Damaged". In my opinion, one of the all time best punk albums.
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#10
Old 09-01-2001, 05:34 PM
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Black Flag's first singer, Keith Morris (aka Johnny "Bob" Goldstein), wouldn't have been a very good Nazi because he's Jewish.

As for Fear being a parody, at one point about 10 years ago Lee Ving was fronting a country band called Range War where his persona was so different from his Fear persona, but still so convincing, that some people said it was impossible to tell which of those, if either, was really him. In any case, when a punk band's lyrics are incredibly sexist, racist, violent, or just stupid, there's always a really good chance that they're being ironic. You don't have to listen to Fear very much to get that.
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