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Roland Orzabal
04-30-2004, 02:38 AM
Probably shouldn't make my second thread ever a pit thread, but this happened to me today, and this seemed like the place to bitch about it.

I was hanging out with my dad earlier today, and we stopped at Kroger because he needed a pack of smokes. He only had $3 on him because he'd just paid for lunch, and cigarettes cost anywhere from $2-$5/pack around here, so he borrowed a buck from me. When we got to the Customer Service counter (which is where you have to buy the cigarettes; you can't buy them with the rest of your groceries and the cashiers won't go get them for you at the register), the total for the smokes only came to $2.71, so my dad handed me back my dollar...at which point the asshat store manager (who was, amazingly enough, actually manning the CS counter) grabs back the pack of cigarettes and asks to see my ID. Naturally, I asked him why this was necessary. He responded that "since you exchanged money right in front of us, we're required to check your ID".

Now, I'm 20 years old, and I have a valid driver's license, so I showed him that and everything was fine. But what I want to know is, had I been underaged, would the store manager have refused to sell my father (who is 43) a pack of cigarettes that are perfectly legal to sell to somebody half his age? The implication was certainly that they would. And despite my usually passive attitude, I'm afraid I would've had an issue with that, as would my father, I'm sure.

I can almost understand enforcing such a policy had I handed money to my father, thus indicating that I was in fact buying the cigarettes using him as a go-between (although idealistically, I would still hold that if an adult chooses to buy cigarettes for a kid, the store should have no say in that, since whatever the adult does with his own smokes is his responsibility). But it was my dad handing ME a dollar. What possible heinous scheme did the manager think we had concocted? The only thing I can think of is that we were smart enough to initially exchange money outside the store, but then too dumb to remember to do the same with the change. Not to mention that, if he were actually buying cigarettes for me illicitly, I would most likely have waited outside in the first place.

Oh, and incidentally, I know for sure that this wasn't a fluke. My dad was buying beer one night at a different Kroger, and the cashier carded his friend who just happened to be checking out behind him at the U-Scan. His friend didn't have ID on him, but they let my dad buy the beer anyway (in which case, why bother to pretend to enforce the policy, but whatever).

What the hell kind of policy is this anyway? If somebody is of legal age to purchase alcohol or tobacco, what fucking business is it of Kroger's who happens to be with him/her at the time? Under this policy, a mother doing her weekly shopping with kids in tow wouldn't be allowed to buy cooking sherry for the evening's dinner (since apparently, as shown in the second example, the transfer of money is not actually required to trigger the rule). I'm glad my dad was buying smokes today instead of beer...had they actually refused to sell to him just because I happened to be around, I would've been forced to speak my mind. Am I way off base here, or does this seem equally asinine to the rest of you Dopers?

Doctor Who
04-30-2004, 03:06 AM
This same damn thing happened to me a while back!!! I was with a friend who was buying beer and they asked for my ID as well! I was shocked and outraged! (as evidenced by all these exclamation points I keep using!)

Of course I was underage at the time, and my friend was buying the beer for me...

BUT that's beside the point! Those evil supermarket fiends! What possible justification could there be for wanting to see if I was old enough too?

Damn you Kroger!

- Peter Wiggen :mad:

Declan
04-30-2004, 03:16 AM
Probably shouldn't make my second thread ever a pit thread, but this happened to me today, and this seemed like the place to bitch about it.

I was hanging out with my dad earlier today, and we stopped at Kroger because he needed a pack of smokes. He only had $3 on him because he'd just paid for lunch, and cigarettes cost anywhere from $2-$5/pack around here, so he borrowed a buck from me. When we got to the Customer Service counter (which is where you have to buy the cigarettes; you can't buy them with the rest of your groceries and the cashiers won't go get them for you at the register), the total for the smokes only came to $2.71, so my dad handed me back my dollar...at which point the asshat store manager (who was, amazingly enough, actually manning the CS counter) grabs back the pack of cigarettes and asks to see my ID. Naturally, I asked him why this was necessary. He responded that "since you exchanged money right in front of us, we're required to check your ID".

I dont know the bylaw policys that are enforced by your state, but up in ontario, the smoke nazis on the bylaw enforcement side are allowed to entrap people who may unknowingly sell tobbacco products to minors.

Generally some kids will stroll into a targetted store, view the compliance with the law, or purchase the smokes, wander out, and seconds later herr bylaw enforcement officer will stop by and issue a ticket or a summons.

Its probable that the krogers management was acting in defense of such a situation. While you are 20 as mentioned, some stores I have seen either have 25 as the cutoff for being carded, or if you look young enough to warrant being carded.

Its kinda funny in a way to watch a 40 yr old woman get carded for smokes, she was only half miffed.

Declan

Lynn Bodoni
04-30-2004, 03:22 AM
Considering that this is JUST the kind of setup a sting operation would use, I'd say that any manager who wanted to keep his store open and unfined would ask for ID. Whether you like the law or not, the store HAS to follow that law, or be fined. When I was working at a convenience store, we were told that if we were busted selling booze or tobacco to underage customers, state law fined the clerks ($500 around 1980) as well as the store, the store would NOT pay the clerk's fine, and the clerk was likely to get fired as well as fined.

Newspapers and TV stations LOVE to try to run stings on stores when the news is slow. It makes for nice splashy headlines, takes very little to set up, and they can milk the story for a while.

Roland Orzabal
04-30-2004, 03:32 AM
Of course I was underage at the time, and my friend was buying the beer for me...

BUT that's beside the point! Those evil supermarket fiends! What possible justification could there be for wanting to see if I was old enough too?

Sarcasm duly noted, PeterWiggen. Nonetheless, your friend was old enough to buy the beer. What he chose to do with it after that (i.e. give it to you) would be his responsibility, not the store's (and to Declan and the three zillion others that I'm sure will tell me this, I'm aware that the law might see things differently depending on location, but that just means that the law is stupid rather than the store; feel free to substitute the appropriate terminology as needed).

BUYING beer for a minor is illegal. SELLING beer to a minor is illegal. But where, outside of civil court (where all manner of perfectly legal actions for some reason seem to require punitive payments), is selling beer to an adult who is buying for a minor illegal? And if this does happen to be the case -- and I'd easily believe it; I live in Virginia, home of the stupidest liquor laws in the U.S. -- then for God's sake, why??? Where does the chain of accountability end? And for that matter, what measures are considered sufficient action on the store's part to prevent this from occurring? Obviously, the store manager in today's incident felt that my dad giving me a dollar was enough to warrant suspicion. Which is bullshit, but I'll go with it. But what if no exchange of money had occured? Would the store manager still have been responsible if my dad had handed me the smokes (and I had been underage)? WHY? If the store's policy is in place to prevent legal action, then the law is stupid. If, like movie ratings, it's just in place as a smarmy ass "morality-focused self-regulation", then the store is stupid. Take your pick.

duffer
04-30-2004, 03:41 AM
Considering that this is JUST the kind of setup a sting operation would use, I'd say that any manager who wanted to keep his store open and unfined would ask for ID. Whether you like the law or not, the store HAS to follow that law, or be fined. When I was working at a convenience store, we were told that if we were busted selling booze or tobacco to underage customers, state law fined the clerks ($500 around 1980) as well as the store, the store would NOT pay the clerk's fine, and the clerk was likely to get fired as well as fined.

Newspapers and TV stations LOVE to try to run stings on stores when the news is slow. It makes for nice splashy headlines, takes very little to set up, and they can milk the story for a while.

I just don't see the relevance to the OP here. In your case, it involved selling to minors. In the OP, it was the purchasers companion that triggered the ID.

This would be like taking my neice to dinner, having a glass of wine, and having her ID'd because she's with me. :confused:

I remember in Wisconsin, if you were with a parent or blood relative, you could drink at the age of 12 so long as the custodial party ordered it, and it was served to that person. Then, if the adult passed along the drink to you, no problem. (Oh, good times)

Roland Orzabal
04-30-2004, 03:41 AM
Considering that this is JUST the kind of setup a sting operation would use, I'd say that any manager who wanted to keep his store open and unfined would ask for ID. Whether you like the law or not, the store HAS to follow that law, or be fined. When I was working at a convenience store, we were told that if we were busted selling booze or tobacco to underage customers, state law fined the clerks ($500 around 1980) as well as the store, the store would NOT pay the clerk's fine, and the clerk was likely to get fired as well as fined.

See above post on law, rather than store policy, being the culprit. (I realize you said this before I posted it, but it applies nonetheless.)

And aside from that, I personally would laugh at a televised sting operation in which a store clerk was "busted" for not carding a 43-year-old man for cigarettes after he gave his son a dollar.

I suppose the matter hinges on whether or not you believe the dollar was significant. If you think it wasn't, then you're saying that the store would be justified in not selling cigarettes or alcohol to anybody who happens to have kids with them at the time. In other words, mommy doesn't get her Marlboros with her weekly groceries because little Billy wanted to come ride in the cart. If, on the other hand, you believe the buck was the basis for the botheration:

I can almost understand enforcing such a policy had I handed money to my father, thus indicating that I was in fact buying the cigarettes using him as a go-between (although idealistically, I would still hold that if an adult chooses to buy cigarettes for a kid, the store should have no say in that, since whatever the adult does with his own smokes is his responsibility). But it was my dad handing ME a dollar. What possible heinous scheme did the manager think we had concocted? The only thing I can think of is that we were smart enough to initially exchange money outside the store, but then too dumb to remember to do the same with the change. Not to mention that, if he were actually buying cigarettes for me illicitly, I would most likely have waited outside in the first place.

Either way, the manager's actions were ridiculous, even if they were nothing more than an attempt to cover his ass.

Declan
04-30-2004, 03:48 AM
Sarcasm duly noted, PeterWiggen. Nonetheless, your friend was old enough to buy the beer. What he chose to do with it after that (i.e. give it to you) would be his responsibility, not the store's (and to Declan and the three zillion others that I'm sure will tell me this, I'm aware that the law might see things differently depending on location, but that just means that the law is stupid rather than the store; feel free to substitute the appropriate terminology as needed).

Course the law was stupid, I never said different.


BUYING beer for a minor is illegal. SELLING beer to a minor is illegal. But where, outside of civil court (where all manner of perfectly legal actions for some reason seem to require punitive payments), is selling beer to an adult who is buying for a minor illegal?

Your state may be different, but 19 is the age for selling alcohol. But in your own home, its not against the law to provide Alcohol to minors.


But what if no exchange of money had occured? Would the store manager still have been responsible if my dad had handed me the smokes (and I had been underage)? WHY? If the store's policy is in place to prevent legal action, then the law is stupid.

Again yeah the law is stupid, but thats what happens when you have soccer moms climbing into bed with parasitic congress critters to enable social engineering.

And again jurisdiction wise, probably only if the store believed that your dad was supplying you with marly reds, up here they can refuse to sell anyone, any product they so desire, if your dad was to buy the smokes up here, and then turn them over to you, then he is liable for a 4000 dollar fine. In virgininia, you would have to consult your own laws for a similar penalty, but since the insidious folks who cause such hilarity network, you probably do have a similar law in place.


Declan

duffer
04-30-2004, 03:56 AM
By the way, was this a Kroger's in Indiana? I remember a few years back I was at the one near Greenfield, IN buying a case. I got to the checkout and a kid working the lane said I had to pass it over the scanner.

Being from WI where it's practically law that you buy beer when you start shaving, I asked him why. He said he was 19, and since IN is a 21 state, he couldn't have any interaction with the sale of alcohol. Yet, he was able to take the money, ring it in, and hand me change and receipt. :confused: :confused:

Roland Orzabal
04-30-2004, 04:06 AM
Nope, it's Kroger in good ol' Virginia...home, as I said, to the dumbest liquor laws on the planet. My personal favorite is the one I've always referred to as the "Please Drink And Drive" law. It's actually a combination of two laws:

1. It's illegal for a grocery or convenience store to sell alcohol after midnight.

2. Bars and restaurants that serve alcohol may continue to do so until 2:00 AM.

Want to catch a buzz at 1:00 in the morning? You do the math.

None of this applies to the OP, of course; I'm just mentioning it because it's dumb and I don't feel like starting a whole other Pit thread on it.

duffer
04-30-2004, 04:17 AM
Nope, it's Kroger in good ol' Virginia...home, as I said, to the dumbest liquor laws on the planet. My personal favorite is the one I've always referred to as the "Please Drink And Drive" law. It's actually a combination of two laws:

1. It's illegal for a grocery or convenience store to sell alcohol after midnight.

2. Bars and restaurants that serve alcohol may continue to do so until 2:00 AM.

Want to catch a buzz at 1:00 in the morning? You do the math.

None of this applies to the OP, of course; I'm just mentioning it because it's dumb and I don't feel like starting a whole other Pit thread on it.

I swear I'll try to make this the last post to this thread. But I have a dumber law. Hang on, this is freaking hilarious.

In the city of Milwaukee, Mayor John O. Norquist (Dem ;) ) made it city law that no carry-out alcohol could be sold after 9 p.m. But the bars would still have a closing time of 3 a.m.

The reason? He figured by limiting off-sale to 9 p.m. would help reduce domestic violence. :wally

(Can't remember the year it was implemented, but it was early '90's)

C3
04-30-2004, 08:13 AM
I saw this happen at a Bi-Lo here in South Carolina a few years ago. It was a man of about 25 purchasing a six-pack. He had a couple girls with him (looked about the same age). Although he was buying the beer, they asked the girls for id. We live in a beach town - they were wearing their bathing suits and didn't have purses or anything with them. The cashier told them it was a State Law that she couldn't sell the beer to them because they didn't all have id.

It really annoyed me. Not so much that the cashier wouldn't sell the beer to them (although that's pretty stupid), but that she told them it was a state law. It's not - I checked when I got home. Why lie? Just say store policy and leave it at that. She made it seem (and pretty loudly) that they were trying to commit a crime.

county
04-30-2004, 08:24 AM
That Kroger discount card sucks. Having to carry around a freakin card to get the sale prices and of course if you don't have the card, well you tell the cashier you forgot and he uses one he keeps at the register - I/we got enough stuff to keep up with besides a freakin grocery card. IMO.

Typo Negative
04-30-2004, 08:39 AM
It really annoyed me. Not so much that the cashier wouldn't sell the beer to them (although that's pretty stupid), but that she told them it was a state law. It's not - I checked when I got home. Why lie? Just say store policy and leave it at that. She made it seem (and pretty loudly) that they were trying to commit a crime.
If they admit it's store policy and not state law, they may have to put up with more argument from the customer. Your average customer may try pretty hard to get the cahier to violate store policy. State law, not so much.

Duck Duck Goose
04-30-2004, 09:09 AM
...He said he was 19, and since IN is a 21 state, he couldn't have any interaction with the sale of alcohol. Yet, he was able to take the money, ring it in, and hand me change and receipt.
This happens at my Kroger store all the time, since they've got one (female) checker who is under 21. Every time someone's buying beer in her lane, she has to call the manager over to run the register. The reason I know this is because I seem to end up standing in line behind this guy every time. :D

Having to carry around a freakin card to get the sale prices and of course if you don't have the card, well you tell the cashier you forgot and he uses one he keeps at the registerThis depends totally on which Kroger store you go to: Here in Decatur, the Brettwood Kroger will swipe the cashier's card for you, but the Fairview Kroger most emphatically will not, plus they give you a dirty look if you ask them to. Every time. I have no idea what must have happened to get them so unsold on the idea of swiping the card for a customer.

But, looooove getting those cut-rate prices, uh huh. I put up with the card in return for getting boneless pork loin at $1.77 a pound, oh yeah. :D

Scarlett67
04-30-2004, 10:25 AM
Links to two previous threads that discuss this topic:

Businesses you'll never patronize again -- and why (http://boards.academicpursuits.us/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=124315)
"Second-party" alcohol sales (http://boards.academicpursuits.us/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=124747)

Yakkette
04-30-2004, 10:32 AM
I'm not sure if this is a state to state thing, but here in NY, there are signs that you will be carded if you look under 40. For alcohol AND cigarettes. Seems like a stretch, but it's really not THAT big of a nuisance, IMO.

I rue the day they stop asking me for ID. Ack!!

Green Bean
04-30-2004, 11:10 AM
Considering that this is JUST the kind of setup a sting operation would use...I guess I'm not sure what exactly the sting operation would be able to claim they found? The store was following the law.

The store must follow the law and not sell to underage people. The adults must follow the law and not procure alcohol or cigarettes for underage people. The underage people must follow the law and not use cigarettes or alcohol. It is far outside the scope of the store's responsibility to prevent underage people from drinking.

I think stores should make a good-faith effort to avoid obvious end-runs around the drinking and smoking age laws, but that doesn't mean they should be trying to figure out if each customer is trying to break the law, and to try to stop him from doing it. In other words, if the cashier has good reason to believe that the alcohol or cigarettes are being purchased by the adult for the purpose of providing it to a minor, like having observed them making the arrangements, then he or she should certainly refuse to sell it. But for a cashier (or store manager) to make assumptions about the purchaser and his or her companions and their intentions is offensive and ridiculous.

Podkayne
04-30-2004, 12:24 PM
It is a stupid law. If an adult, who is considered old enough to buy beer, buy cigarettes, vote, drive a car, enter into legal and binding contracts, etc., etc., etc. gives beer to someone who is under-age, then that person has chosen to do something illegal and they should be prosecuted for it. It's ridiculous that retailers are expected to police the behavior of other citizens.

My friend is a grocery cashier, and she has to refuse to sell beer all the time to people who come into the store with underage friends. She can't sell to them if they bring their friends through the checkout--she can't even sell to them if they have had any interaction with their friends in the store.

If she gets caught selling to someone who is in a party containing minors (most likely in a sting), the store gets slapped with a huge fine and she, naturally, will lose her job.

I realize that from a practical point of view, it is very difficult to catch people giving beer to people who are underage and it's much easier to prevent beer from being sold to people who clearly intend to give the beer to underage drinkers.

But on the other hand, once again from a partictical point of view, if a group of people get refused, all they have to do is drive to the next store (which is one entire block away) and this time leave their underage friends in the freakin' car.

Green Bean
04-30-2004, 01:27 PM
If it is, in fact, illegal to sell to people who are in the store with minors, then I stand corrected.

But I'd really like to know how they deal with people who come in with their children. Of course, it's kind of a straw-man thing to ask if they'd refuse to sell me beer if I had my two year old with me, but what about older children. What about other family members? Where do they draw the line?

Imagine this scenario:

21 year old John is home from college on break. He wants to use the car. Mom says sure, but you have to pick up Mary (17 year old sister) from work. John says sure. Mom calls John on his cellphone and asks John to get some milk at the supermarket on the way home. John picks up Mary and they go into the supermarket to get the milk. While he's there, John decides to pick up a 6-pack of beer to drink with his buddies later on that night.

Would the store refuse to sell the beer to John?
What if they show the store proof that they are sister and brother?
What if someone who knows the family is there and confirms that the last thing that Mary wants to do is hang out with her dorky brother and dorkier friends?
What if Mom drives over. Would they let her purchase the beer for John?

(I mean those questions seriously. I tried to make it a reasonable scenario.)

TellMeI'mNotCrazy
04-30-2004, 01:46 PM
I think the issue here was simply that they exchanged money in front of the cashier - making it obvious that although the father was buying the cigarettes, it was the OP that was receiving them. Now obviously, he wasn't doing anything wrong because he was the right age, but the cashier didn't know that until he checked.

This happened to me once in NC. I had forgotten my license, and went in to buy cigarettes. She chose that day, of course, to card me, so I shrugged, said I didn't have it, and sent my then-boyfriend into the store instead. He also came out empty handed - because she knew he was with me. NC has a law forbidding this:

Aiding, assisting or abetting another person in selling or distributing tobacco products or cigarette papers to minors is prohibited. Purchasing tobacco products or cigarette papers on behalf of minors is prohibited. (from wecard.com). Virginia has a similar law. Wecard is actually a great place for tobacco law info.

tanookie
04-30-2004, 02:05 PM
I worked in a grocery store in NH where alcohol is also sold. (Here in MA you can't get any alcoholic beverages in a grocery store.)

In the John/Mary/Mom scenario I would not have been able to sell to John and Mary but I could have sold to Mom had she shown up.

Our store used the 'we card everyone' policy. We carded the entire group regardless of how old they looked. 85 year old Grandpa buying some wine - yup carded him too. Pissed off a lot of senior citizens lemme tell ya! But if I failed to card anyone I would lose my job.

The stupidity of the kids though always amazed me. Yeah, lets run rowdy through the store and call attention to yourself by showing off - a lot - then get to the register with alcohol and get pissy when we won't sell to you because most of you are underage. Don't wink at me and tell me I can come to your little party later if I just let you through. I'm not interested. Also, every time you passed a department acting like morons on parade someone called the manager. The person running the front end was waiting for you to show up there and is watching to ensure I card every one of you. Oh and sending your buddies out to the car and coming back through my line won't work. My manager watches for that stuff and will not let me sell to you.

I believe the reasoning behind them not selling the alcohol if a group comes in and some of them are underaged is it is reasonably assumed that the purchases made are for the group and not just the individual with the cash. If all they bought were two pizzas and a bag of chips and a case of coke then that's no problem. Substitute beer for the coke and the store assumes the beer is for everyone. Therefore even though the one of age person in the group paid for the beer the "group" bought the beer and the store could be liable.

So the lesson for today is leave your underaged friends in the car.

LilyoftheValley
04-30-2004, 02:33 PM
But I'd really like to know how they deal with people who come in with their children. Of course, it's kind of a straw-man thing to ask if they'd refuse to sell me beer if I had my two year old with me, but what about older children. What about other family members? Where do they draw the line?


True story:

MrValley and I were buying our household supply of groceries. Included in the full cart was a bottle of white wine we were going to use as part of a recipe for cheese fondue. When we got up to the register, the cashier asked us both for ID. He produced ID showing that he was in his mid-30s (we were both far older than 21). I had not brought my wallet, since hubby was using his credit card to buy the groceries. They refused to sell us the wine.

So apparently stores need to protect us from a husband potentially buying a bottle of wine for his wife. (We have matching wedding rings, which we pointed out to the cashier.) I suppose we could have cleverly made matching rings and purchased $80 worth of groceries merely to disguise the fact that he was buying a bottle of wine for someone underaged! :rolleyes: Seriously, if I had been young enough to be underage, I would have been damn close to being young enough to be his daughter. Would a grocery store deny selling wine to a father and daughter?

Anyway, the end result was he went into a nearby store and bought a bottle of wine for the recipe while I waited in the car.

LilyoftheValley
04-30-2004, 02:37 PM
Hey tanookie -- I missed your reply while trying to write my story in a reasonably coherent fashion.

The event I described was in NH too. If you don't mind telling me, would you have refused to sell us the wine?

Doomtrain
04-30-2004, 02:39 PM
You guys are making a lot of sense. Unfortunately, you're running into two major problems. The first is The Law, which is seldom based on sense, and the second is Store Policy which, speaking as a former retail drone, is seldom based on sense and is usually used so no one has to use sense.

Roland Orzabal
04-30-2004, 02:58 PM
Heh...this seems to be turning into one of those "it's legal" vs. "it's stupid" threads, where nobody actually disagrees with each other, but we're arguing because we can't decide what we're arguing about. Basically the kind of thing I was trying to prevent in this thread (http://boards.academicpursuits.us/sdmb/showthread.php?t=253603), which unfortunately failed to attract much attention.

For the record, the OP (me) is just pointing out that the rule itself, whether based on law or just store policy, is asinine and wrong. Green Bean, you pretty much nailed it with this:



The store must follow the law and not sell to underage people. The adults must follow the law and not procure alcohol or cigarettes for underage people. The underage people must follow the law and not use cigarettes or alcohol. It is far outside the scope of the store's responsibility to prevent underage people from drinking.

Even if that's not currently the fact of the matter, the point is, it should be. Chains of accountability piss me off. That's really the core issue of the matter.

Oh, and TellMeI'mNotCrazy:

I think the issue here was simply that they exchanged money in front of the cashier - making it obvious that although the father was buying the cigarettes, it was the OP that was receiving them. Now obviously, he wasn't doing anything wrong because he was the right age, but the cashier didn't know that until he checked.

First of all, I wasn't receiving the cigarettes. I don't even smoke. If I'd wanted them, I would've bought them myself, since as you pointed out I am of legal age to do so. Second, what part of my father giving me a dollar suggests that the cigarettes were actually for me? Read my above two posts regarding that. I'd quote them, but then I'd be quoting a quote of a quote, and I think we can all agree that that's just overkill.

TellMeI'mNotCrazy
04-30-2004, 03:02 PM
I was just about to apologize for my error.

:smack:

Indygrrl
04-30-2004, 03:52 PM
By the way, was this a Kroger's in Indiana? I remember a few years back I was at the one near Greenfield, IN buying a case. I got to the checkout and a kid working the lane said I had to pass it over the scanner.

Being from WI where it's practically law that you buy beer when you start shaving, I asked him why. He said he was 19, and since IN is a 21 state, he couldn't have any interaction with the sale of alcohol. Yet, he was able to take the money, ring it in, and hand me change and receipt. :confused: :confused:

Yeah, in Indiana an underage cashier is not allowed to scan the alcohol. It makes absolutely no sense, but it's the law. I always wondered about the logic behind that.

Sidenote: Greenfield, IN is my hometown. I never expected to see it mentioned on the SDMB. hee hee.

GLWasteful
04-30-2004, 04:11 PM
Man! What a pain in the ass. Of course, following store procedures and the law all at the same time can be such fun. And fates forfend that you get some manager with his knickers in a twist thrown into the mix.

Actually, the above situations wherein a certain amount of groceries were purchased as well as the alcohol were how I always managed to buy booze when I was underage. And I was never once carded. Of course, this was back when the earth was cooling and you had to worry about being stomped by a rampaging dino or run over by a precursor of the automobile that we referred to as a "Nash".

Not to broadcast my ignorance or anything, but just how common are those instances where you buy groceries and are not allowed to purchase booze at the same time? That concerns me. In a good, I'm-a-concerned-parent-of-a-twelve-year-old fashion, but still.

Waste

angelicate
04-30-2004, 04:13 PM
True story:

MrValley and I were buying our household supply of groceries. Included in the full cart was a bottle of white wine we were going to use as part of a recipe for cheese fondue. When we got up to the register, the cashier asked us both for ID. He produced ID showing that he was in his mid-30s (we were both far older than 21). I had not brought my wallet, since hubby was using his credit card to buy the groceries. They refused to sell us the wine.

So apparently stores need to protect us from a husband potentially buying a bottle of wine for his wife. (We have matching wedding rings, which we pointed out to the cashier.) I suppose we could have cleverly made matching rings and purchased $80 worth of groceries merely to disguise the fact that he was buying a bottle of wine for someone underaged! :rolleyes: Seriously, if I had been young enough to be underage, I would have been damn close to being young enough to be his daughter. Would a grocery store deny selling wine to a father and daughter?

Anyway, the end result was he went into a nearby store and bought a bottle of wine for the recipe while I waited in the car.


The same thing happened to us. We were out grocery shopping and I'd left my purse at home, along with my ID, because I didn't think I was going to need it. We went through the lane with our full basket of groceries and a 12 pack of Corona. They asked for my husband's ID and then mine. I didn't have mine, so he couldn't buy his beer.
I think I look like I am over 21, but adding to that, I was about 7 months pregnant at the time and very obviously showing. I told them that there's no way I'd even be touching a drop of that beer since I was pregnant (And I don't like beer anyhow.) but he couldn't buy it. We stopped at a gas station on the way home and bought it there.
I understand it's the law, but it's silly.

The Long Road
04-30-2004, 05:07 PM
Everyone is missing the point here: The OP was buying cigarettes!! My god man, did you then go and set a puppy on fire or perhaps drive over an old lady?? Have you not been watching those ads by The Truth (http://thetruth.com/index.cfm?connect=truth)? Thanks for giving me cancer!!!!

Telemark
04-30-2004, 05:23 PM
Even if that's not currently the fact of the matter, the point is, it should be. Chains of accountability piss me off. That's really the core issue of the matter.
There are times in society where it is acceptable to put additional responsiblity on people who are not directly responsible for an action. Most of these seem to involve alcohol.

Bartenders can't serve drinks to someone who is obviously drunk. Some venues place restrictions on how many drinks you can purchase at one time. In both of these cases the law requires sellers to act a little like a nanny because society has decided that the consequences (drunk driving, binge drinking/rowdy behavior) are too great.

Underage drinking (and apparently smoking) are situations where society has imposed additional responsibility on the sellers. I've been told in liquor stores that the entire group must be of legal age for any member of the group to buy alcohol. While it may seem silly at times to enforce the rule in extreme situations, it makes it much easier for the clerks.

Yeah, it sucks some times. I'm not sure I agree with the current set of laws in all cases. But I certainly understand the motivations of the laws.

ms_mom67
04-30-2004, 05:24 PM
Did anybody realize that the cashier that sells anybody underage, cigarettes or
alcohol can be fined and sent to jail? Besides the business is fined also. Not sure about you, but I didn't think it was worth it to not ask for ID. I am not about to pay a fine or go to jail for anyone. So what the man saw between the father and son, could have been mistaken that he was really buying for the son. If the son didn't have ID, I would not have sold the cigarettes.
It's called covering one's ass. :mad:

Hyperelastic
04-30-2004, 05:34 PM
I don't think the OP has a leg to stand on, seeing as how he's going around impersonating that guy from "Tears for Fears". I'd check his ID too.

kaylasdad99
04-30-2004, 06:25 PM
Back in 1972, when I was 16, I got a job washing dishes in an Italian restaurant (in Southern California, if it matters). They didn't have busboys at this restaurant; all tables were cleared by the waitresses, who then passed the dirty dishes, glassware, etc., through a little window into my little scullery-corner of the kitchen.

Any time a vessel containing more than half an ounce of beer came through the window, the waitress would have to walk around to my side and empty it into the drainage basin. Struck me as pretty dumb at the time, and it still does. The restaurant owner was standing fifteen feet away, and always had a perfectly adequate view of me and my activities. Even if I had been tempted to try sneaking a glass of abandoned beer (I wasn't, by the way; the stuff reeked like overripe bananas), sneaking much of anything wasn't much of an option.

Rilchiam
05-01-2004, 08:50 AM
Shortly after I first arrived in LA, I tried to buy wine at Ralph's. (Along with a cart full of groceries, FWIW.) I was 24 at the time, and still carrying my Pennsylvania ID because I hadn't gotten my California license yet.

The cashier asked for ID, which I willingly handed over. She looked at it the same way a person nowadays would look at an ID card with the name "Mohammed Atta", and called the manager, who refused to sell to me.

Is that a valid reason to refuse a sale? I was once told that since the layout of a driver's license varies from state to state, it might be difficult to discern a fake ID from a real one. But there are ways to verify an ID. Check for signs of tampering. Ask the person what their astrological sign is. Have them sign a piece of paper and see if it matches what's on the card. Look for the presence or absence of the red banner that says "Under 21", which most, if not all, state DMVs have.

Sheesh. I mean (as I said at the time) I could understand if I'd been trying to pay with a CA check and a PA ID. But the ID only had to match me, and it did.

dalej42
05-01-2004, 10:07 AM
Shortly after I first arrived in LA, I tried to buy wine at Ralph's. (Along with a cart full of groceries, FWIW.) I was 24 at the time, and still carrying my Pennsylvania ID because I hadn't gotten my California license yet.

The cashier asked for ID, which I willingly handed over. She looked at it the same way a person nowadays would look at an ID card with the name "Mohammed Atta", and called the manager, who refused to sell to me.

This is common. In Ohio, one grocery store used to refuse to sell alcohol to anyone without an Ohio license. This grocery store was located in a shopping center which served as a park and ride for Ohio State football (out of state alums and fans of the visiting team) as well as military recruiting offices (servicemen from all over the country).

How utterly silly society is for all these stupid laws. Thanks MADD, why don't you just admit you want to bring back prohibition. Drop by drop, that is exactly what you're doing.

tanookie
05-01-2004, 11:29 AM
Hey tanookie -- I missed your reply while trying to write my story in a reasonably coherent fashion.

The event I described was in NH too. If you don't mind telling me, would you have refused to sell us the wine?

It would depend on how much the manager was paying attention. I probably would have.

Zabali_Clawbane
05-01-2004, 06:24 PM
<snip> Second, what part of my father giving me a dollar suggests that the cigarettes were actually for me? <snip>


It could be construed that he unthinkingly gave you the "extra" dollar you'd given him to purchase the tobacco. I think the attitude stinks too, but I can see how they'd arrive at the concept. Not a nice feeling to think that you give off such an unflattering impression I know. I don't know what to say to this, it's crappy. I don't think stores should be held accountable EVERY time an adult buys alcoholtobacco for a minor at their store, but I do think that in some cases the stores should be. (As in cases where it is more than reasonable to conjecture that the alcohol is being purchased for the group, which includes minors.) It's just hard to make a comprehensible law that can be applied fairly that does so.

Zjestika
05-01-2004, 07:16 PM
To some extent I think that people get a bit power-crazy when it comes to IDing. I worked at a convenience store and was scared to death of mistakenly selling beer or smokes to a minor, but there was no need to be on a power trip.

For example, my co-worker one day IDed a kid who was trying to purchase some Marlboro lights, and he didn't have an ID. So he left. Now, the way the place was set up we couldn't always see people parked behind the building, so we couldn't see who he was with. Seconds later a young man comes in and asks for Marlboro lights. He has ID and is 18 and legal, but she refuses to sell him the cigarettes based on the fact that he looked about the same age as the underaged kid, so therefor he must be buying them for him. Seconds later a girl about the same age comes in (with ID) and asks for Marlboro lights. My co-worker refuses. At this point I said "I will sell them to you," and did. Marlboro lights are the most common brand, were we to declare a moratorium on selling them until Mr. Underaged was gone, even though we couldn't even see if he'd left yet?? My co-worker was just on a serious trip. Or scared so much of the consequences that it was clouding all rational thought.

BTW, my boss sided with me. My co-worker, however, hated me forever. Which was fine.

ZJ

Musicat
05-01-2004, 07:35 PM
Alchoholic beverage laws are some of the most restrictive and nonsensical ever passed, created by overbearing Puritans whose idea of an ideal society is rooted in the deep bible-belt. You know, the one where the legislature passes a law making their county dry, then go next door to the wet county to celebrate.

Duffer, while Milwaukee may have additional restrictions, it is illegal in Wisconsin state-wide to sell package liquor after 9PM any day, although bars stay open much later (and some people start drinking the next day at 10AM -- after all, this is Wisconsin, where every corner has 3 bars and 6 beer signs). I think the package prohibition extends until 6AM.

Before I knew this, I remember a friend of mine, a white-haired grandmother, who had just gotten into town late and was planning on preparing a late supper for herself and her husband. We ran into each other at the supermarket, and I helped her pick out a small bottle of wine to complement her meal. But when she got to the cash register, it was after 9PM and she couldn't buy the wine. The idea of this elderly woman -- whose idea of a good time was a sedate plate of pasta in front of the TV before bed -- getting stinking drunk on a single bottle of wine, hopping into her car and driving into a schoolbus full of happy kids is pretty farfetched, but that is what the law is designed to prevent.

Meanwhile, the people who were really dangerous were hopping into their cars from the bars, weaving their way home, and they could legally drink all night. Apparently the ABC laws define morality as bar drinking (where you must go home later) = OK, but home drinking (where you need not drive after) = Wrong.

And in Wisconsin, underage cashiers cannot sell items that they could not legally buy. I had a 5oz big bottle of bitters in my groceries one day, and the cashier had to call someone older to pass it over the scanner. If you look at the bitters label, it is marked "40% alchohol", so it qualified as an intoxicating beverage. But can you imagine someone trying to drink the entire bitters bottle to get drunk? You'd throw up first. And if you diluted it enough to make it palatable, it would have all the potable potency of Pepsi.

duffer
05-02-2004, 04:18 AM
Duffer, while Milwaukee may have additional restrictions, it is illegal in Wisconsin state-wide to sell package liquor after 9PM.

Well, I left Milwaukee soon after the law was enacted, before that you could buy off-sale till midnight. So it wasn't state law at that point. But again, I've been gone for 10 years.

Instead of making 3 posts, I'll get two more in this one. As far as not working with alcohol while under 21, this must also be new. When I was there, I worked at Ron's Derby on 81st St in West Allis from age 18-20. At the time, you could bartend under 21 as long as you were 18 and someone 21 or older was working the same bar.

And with the 9 p.m. cut-off, I just found it absurd that the reason given the media was to curb domestic violence. I mean, if someone is going to get shitfaced to the point of beating their spouse, it seems that the liquor coffers will be well stocked long before 9. In addition, if it's 10 and a guy wants a few beers, I'd rather he walk a few blocks to the store, rather than drive to a bar and then drive home after he had his fill.

But I really do want to know when the state laws kicked in. They had to have come from Norquist's edict.

Hostile Dialect
05-03-2004, 06:08 AM
I'm pretty sure it's illegal in most places for adults to give alcohol or tobacco to minors. In your case, it looked like your dad, an adult, may have been buying tobacco for you, a minor. Had the cashier not carded you, he would have seen reasonable evidence of an illegal activity being committed, and not acted upon it, which in itself is illegal in some places. IANAL and I didn't do any research on this before posting, so I may be totally wrong. The policy makes sense to me, though. And I'm a 17-year-old who occasionally buys cigarettes--it would be in my best interest for stores not to card.

Little Plastic Ninja
05-03-2004, 09:02 AM
Similar but not exact...

I used to live in a housing co-op, and we always bought our food on either Saturday or Sunday (usually Sunday at roughly two in the afternoon, when people were mostly over their hangovers...ah, college :p). I had requested cooking sherry for a meal I was making for the whole house on, you guessed it, Sunday evening.

The foodbuyers roll in and start carrying in the food.

"Um, LPN, we couldn't get the cooking sherry."

"Huh? Were they out? It's usually by the soy sauce..."

All y'all Texans recite it after me now: "Nope. We tried to buy it on Sunday."

That's right. You can't buy alcohol from the store on Sunday. You can go to the bar and get shitfaced Saturday night, sleep until 2 on Sunday afternoon, and then go get shitfaced Sunday night, but you can't buy cooking sherry! Even with another $300 worth of groceries! I mean, anything could happen!

:rolleyes:

Musicat
05-03-2004, 09:26 AM
Duffer, I don't know what decade the Wisconsin drinking age laws changed, but they did. When I was a kid, they had a two-tier age law; you could drink wine & beer at 18, but had to wait for 21 for harder stuff.

As you might expect, this led to distinctly different bar hangouts segregated by age groups. I remember a bar that had a loud rock band and was always spilling out into the parking lot with eager kids next door to an over-21 establishment with a sedate, but sparse crowd of old men sitting morosely at the bar nursing their cocktails. Like night & day.

And the blue laws in some states prohibited you from buying more than just liquor on Sunday. In Missouri, the giant Katz "drug" store had ropes around the clothing and most other displays on Sunday in the 60's. You could linger to lick your lips at the lunch counter and find the pharmacy, but not select shirts or socks on Sunday.

Ludovic
05-03-2004, 09:34 AM
So, is there a maximum age ones compatriots can be in order to purchase alcohol when around them?

For instance, if I tried to purchase beer while with my 10 year-old sister, would that be allowed? If she were 16? 3? Or are employees supposed to use "common sense"?

FilmGeek
05-03-2004, 03:38 PM
snip... Virginia, home of the stupidest liquor laws in the U.S. ...snip

Wrong. :)

Kansas takes the cake with that one.

As for selling... at the store where Ardred works, if he even suspects that the beer is for a minor he can refuse the sale. CYA, always... especially when dealing with the alcohol police.

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