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View Full Version : Do sniper guns ever have those lasers planted on them?


MadderMitch
07-18-2005, 04:57 PM
You know, like the ones Arnie has in Terminator II: Judgement Day?

I've heard that laser-light aim is pretty pointless to use on a gun with a telescopic cross-hair, since it really doesn't add any accuracy to the shot.

Indeed, it's more likely to tip off the unsuspecting target.

However, how come I see it used in the movies all the time? I think even in a docu I saw on Discovery in which they reconstructed an actual murder where the assassin used a laser-sighted gun with tele-crosshairs.


Does this really ever happen?

And if it can't be used in an assassination then what the heck is the point of them anyways?

Let's face it, doesn't it make more sense to always use the cross-hairs since it NEVER really warns off a target?

msmith537
07-18-2005, 05:07 PM
I'm not an expert on weapons or anything, but I am under the impression that the advantage of a laser sight is that you can light up the target quickly at close range without taking time to aim down the sight. If you are in a conceiled sniper position, it seems to me that such a laser would be both redundent and pointless.

msmith537
07-18-2005, 05:10 PM
Oh and the scope on the ".45 Long Slide, with laser sighting" also seemed pointless... as pistols are close-ranged weapons.

hende
07-18-2005, 05:13 PM
I remember viewing a special on the history channel or TLC or something similar about snipers. I recall that snipers do everything possible to conceal their location including using non-reflective scopes and such. It seems to me that if they used a laser pointer it would give away their position, which is the exact thing they are trying to avoid in the first place. Just my guess though.

Crafter_Man
07-18-2005, 05:20 PM
They're useless IMO.

On a handgun you should learn to focus on your front sight, not the target.

On a rifle you need to focus on your front sight (for open sights) or on the target & crosshairs (if using a scope). Furthermore, the laser won't compensate for bullet drop. On a rifle with open sights, you compensate by adjusting elevation; with a scope you can use mil-dots.

So I'm at a lost as to why I should have a laser on my handguns or rifles.

Bryan Ekers
07-18-2005, 05:23 PM
Arnie didn't use a sniper rifle in T2 but there was a pistol with a laser sight in the first film.

It's useless to put a laser sight on a sniper rifle because the laser draws a straight line while a long-range shot needs to be elevated slightly, what with gravity and all, so the bullet follows a parabolic path.

The new C7-A2s (the Canadian equivalent of the M-16) have mounts on the forward handguard for a laser spotter. A soldier presses a button to activate it and he can see the beam with night-vision goggles. Thus, with training, he can get off an accurate shot from the hip.

Padeye
07-18-2005, 05:24 PM
Oh and the scope on the ".45 Long Slide, with laser sighting" also seemed pointless... as pistols are close-ranged weapons.This is precisely where it is mose useful. The shooter can concentrate on the target without having to alight sights on the gun. Lasers work at short range since the dot can be seen. The laser beam may be a tiny, intense dot when it hits the target but when it reflects back it is subject to the inverse squares law and is difficult to see at distance. Try this with a common laser pointer. Aim it on the floor near you and it's easy to see. Aim it 20 yards away and it can be difficult to spot.

Normal telescopic sights superimpose a crosshair or other reticle over the target. Red dot sights so the same with a lighted dot, typically an LED, which is visible to the shooter but does not project on the target. Red dot sights have long eye relief, that is you do not have to place your eye immediately behind it, which makes it suitable for handguns. Red dot sights most often have no magnification of the target and in that respect work more like the heads up display in a fighter plane than a normal telescopic sight. Red dot sights are extremely fast since the shooter doesn't have to align front and rear sights with the target but just put the dot on target. They are used in some kinds of competition but I don't know if assasins use them.

You could use a laser and a telescopic sight so the dot would be easy to see but it doesn't offer any advantage. However I think the military does use some IR lasers which are normally invisible to the target but I think that is done with a spotter+shooter team.

Padeye
07-18-2005, 05:35 PM
It's useless to put a laser sight on a sniper rifle because the laser draws a straight line while a long-range shot needs to be elevated slightly, what with gravity and all, so the bullet follows a parabolic path.This is a misleading argument. The visual line of sight from the crosshairs in a telescopic sight are in a straight line too. There is no reason why a laser cannot be aligned the same way. I'm not saying it makes sense but there isn't any intrinsic reason you can't do it.

http://padeye.net/bullet_path.jpg

This illustration should make it more clear, note that the agles and bullet path are grossly exaggerated for clarity. The line of sight can be defined as front and rear iron sights, the apparent position of crosshairs in a telescope, the dot in a red dot sight or a laser beam as long as it intersects the target at the same place the bullet will.

FWIW one of the catalogs I have sells items like combination mounts for telescopic sights and lasers. Pointless as hell IMO but somebody must be using one of these.

jimpatro
07-18-2005, 06:25 PM
I can see where a laser sight would be great on a rifle for scope azimuth adjustment.

Blake
07-18-2005, 06:27 PM
Arnie didn't use a sniper rifle in T2 but there was a pistol with a laser sight in the first film

IIRC, and it's been years since I've seen the movie, Sarah Connor used an assault rifle with laser sight and scope attached when she tried to whack the engineer from the big bad corportation. I think it only appeared in that one scene.

Ekel
07-18-2005, 06:41 PM
Apart from cool look there is not much use for LAMs (Laser Aiming Modules). They are kinda useful for quick target acquisition in close-quarters combat, but modern colimator (red-dot) or holographic sights are better.

For long range weapons LAMs are next to useless. Well, technically you can adjust them to desired range, but it's not easy to do in battle conditions. And for most LAMs "dot" at the range of 500 yards will be as big as saucer.

But, there is some use for lasers, nonetheless. Thanks to technological advance we have laser rangefinders small enough to be fitted into telescopic sight. All you have to do is just press button and crosshair will be adjusted automatically.

Other option is to use pointing laser device mounted on weapon. When you spot target to hard for you, just "lase" it and request air strike. Laser guided 500 lbs bomb will teach'em. ;) (well, that option is more for SOCOM guys than for snipers)

Last, there is some use for IR lasers + night sights. Not for aiming, but rather for illuminating target, though.

Lasers are very useful for snipers, but small red dots on head of some poor SOB is more of Hollywood than real life.

Bryan Ekers
07-18-2005, 06:48 PM
IIRC, and it's been years since I've seen the movie, Sarah Connor used an assault rifle with laser sight and scope attached when she tried to whack the engineer from the big bad corportation. I think it only appeared in that one scene.

Yes, you're right. It looked like an AR-15.

Padeye
07-18-2005, 06:59 PM
I can see where a laser sight would be great on a rifle for scope azimuth adjustment.There are boresighting laser devices just for this purpose. They mount in the barrel with a spud that precisely aligns the laser with the bore so of course you can't use the laser for actually shooting the gun. As you saw from my illustration the bore lineis not the point of aim but provides a reference for aligning scope bases correctly. A bit of gimickery as gunsmiths have been doing this task for decades with simple devices that mount in the barrel the same way but use a simple crosshair target.

Bear_Nenno
07-18-2005, 07:09 PM
Other option is to use pointing laser device mounted on weapon. When you spot target to hard for you, just "lase" it and request air strike. Laser guided 500 lbs bomb will teach'em. (well, that option is more for SOCOM guys than for snipers)Those lasers are very large, and not weapon mounted. Well, at least I've never seen a weapon mounted one. This wouldn't be the first time new technology has passed me up. But those things are pretty bulky.

Last, there is some use for IR lasers + night sights. Not for aiming, but rather for illuminating target, though.No, there is a lot of use even for aiming. I can hit targets out to 300 meters with an M4, IR Laser, and helmet mounted NVGs. Granted, I would much rather prefer a weapon mounted NVG/Holosight combo, but I gotta use what the Army gives me. ::sigh::


Lasers are very useful for snipers,...No where on a sniper's packing list is any laser.

Lasers on sniper rifles do not exist. Or should never exist. I wouldn't put it past some idiot to go to a gun show and come back with his new Sniper Rifle/Laser Sight combo package...

Lasers on handguns are great because they allow you to keep your eyes on the THREAT, your target. You can keep his hands in focus and still see the red dot on his chest. Focusing on the front sight and leaving a target blurry is pretty silly. Sure it's the ideal sight picture for shooting at the range, but when detaining a suspect or arresting him or something... you want to watch the threat. A laser isn't such a bad idea on a pistol. Though some old school puritans would disagree.

Lasers on Assault rifles are great too. But they are not for "shooting at the hip." In limited or zero visibility (like at midnight with no moon) IR lasers allow you to engage targets effectively. They are also good for target designation and communicating/ coordinating fires of your squad. All I gotta do is yell for someone's attention and shine a laser at the area I want them to suppress. It takes all the guess work out and I dont have to waste time discribing the damn tree next to the other tree that looks like all the rest of the trees in the forest. ... No not that tree, the one next to the rock.... no THAT rock.... Meanwhile we're being shot at and probably dead by now. So lasers are good for target designation.

Visible red laser are also good for that same purpose. But not really used to engaged targets....

Shit I gotta go. I'll post more in a little while

The Hamster King
07-18-2005, 07:55 PM
However, how come I see it used in the movies all the time?

For dramatic effect.

In the real world you can't tell when a sniper is taking aim at you. The shot, when it comes, is a total bolt from the blue.

This isn't very satisfying on the screen. It's too sudden. If you don't telegraph action before it happens it feels jarring and arbitrary to the audience. Having the laser dot appear on the target gives the audience time to anticipate the shot so they can respond properly when it actually comes.

Before the laser thingies existed you'd often see a quick cut to the sniper's view through the scope for the same effect. But that takes you out of the scene, breaking the flow of action or dialog. The laser dot, while unrealistic, is dramatically very useful.

Finagle
07-18-2005, 09:11 PM
I imagine a laser sight has a certain intimidation value for law enforcement. If the bad guy sees a multitude of red dots focused on his center of mass, I can imagine there's a chance that he'd think twice about trying anything silly.

spingears
07-18-2005, 10:21 PM
Do sniper guns ever have those lasers planted on them? FYI laser gun sights are mounted, not planted.
Oh and the scope on the ".45 Long Slide, with laser sighting" also seemed pointless... as pistols are close-ranged weapons.There are a lot of laser sights. "Aim Point" for one, and mounts sold for pistols. It is fast and easy to get on target! Great for shooter with failing eyesight.

Bear_Nenno
07-18-2005, 11:12 PM
Red Dot sights and Holographic sights have been mentioned already. These things are similar to lasers in that they project a red dot on to the target. Except that the dot is just a reticle that you're looking through, so there is no real dot on the target. These sights are used with both eyes open and using natural forward observation. You don't pay much attention to the sight. You just kinda look through/past it and you will see a dot on your target.
These are the greatest sights in the world. Not only are they the best answer in CQB, but I can knock down targets at 300 meters with them -- no problem. And there are no paralax issues, and no adjusting. Once you zero it, it's good to go for all distances. Just like your iron sights!!
Ideally, when budget is not an issue, you'd want a forward mounted holosight with IR capability (Like an Eotech HoloSight). Then you can mount your PVS-14 right on the weapon behind it. Then you'd want an IR Laser, and a 250 lumen tactical light with a flip up IR filter. (Surefire M900B)
Man... I'm getting a chubby just thinking about it. I really miss things back home.

Here's a piece of shit they have me carrying over here. Out dated CCO (close combat optic - the Red Dot sight) - an M68. A PEQ-2 - no problem there. And no tactical light. Though there is an IR floodlight on the PEQ2. Oh well....
What I keep telling myself, is at least the North Koreans wont be able to salvage any good equipment off our dead bodies when they come stomping through... all we carry is garbage.
So, "HA!!! Jokes on them!!"

Here's a blurry picture of me and my issue M4 (http://img110.echo.cx/img110/6954/me29pv.jpg), complete with Laser, and Red Dot sight. If I had a picture of me with an M24 Sniper rifle, you would see no laser anywhere.

Tristan
07-18-2005, 11:17 PM
No where on a sniper's packing list is any laser.


ahem.

Highly wanted item on Snipers Wish lists over in the sand: Laser Rangefinders. The kind golfers use works well.

Just saying.

Bear_Nenno
07-18-2005, 11:38 PM
ahem.

Highly wanted item on Snipers Wish lists over in the sand: Laser Rangefinders. The kind golfers use works well.

Just saying.
Which is neither mounted on the rifle nor carried by the sniper. The Spotter carries that.

:D :D

Cardinal
07-19-2005, 02:00 AM
It's useless to put a laser sight on a sniper rifle because the laser draws a straight line while a long-range shot needs to be elevated slightly, what with gravity and all, so the bullet follows a parabolic path. You could say the same thing for any kind of sight, but the point is that sights are always zeroed in for a certain range. At any other range they are less accurate than what they've been adjusted for.

CalMeacham
07-19-2005, 07:46 AM
A friend of mine started a company that manufactures these lasers. Here's their page:

http://lasermax-inc.com/

Note that they sell to private individuals "for personal protection" and to law enforcement agencies. Nothing about snipers. (If you wanted to use your laser sight for sniping, it'd probably be best to fib about it when you're ordering).

Padeye
07-19-2005, 09:31 AM
I hate to burst your bubble CalMeacham but laser sights aren't as exotic as you seem to think. You don't have to make up a story to get one. The site you linked to has lasers for internal mounting in a hangun as a replacement for the guide rod. They are quite expensive but have the advantage of still fitting a standard holster. You couldn't even mount one on a rifle but that is a moot point as you can get a laser that mounts on a standard picatinny/weaver rail for much less than the the price of the Lasermax. Better quality laser sights will cost at least $100 but I've seen Chinese knockoffs for as little as $30.

New semiauto handguns often now have a mounting rail under the barrel which can be used for a laser but far more people use them for tactical lights which are vastly better for self defense IMO.

IIRC the first laser sight came aout around 1980 and was called the Laser-Lok. it was about the size of two cartons of cigarettes and I think it cost over a thousand dollars. It was a big hairy ass deal then but lasers are passe now.

I want a laser sight that makes the same buzzing sound the Foley artist adds in when the goblin draws a bead on Ranier Wolfcastle. :p

Crafter_Man
07-19-2005, 09:46 AM
Every shooting academy drills "Focus on your Front Sight" into the students' brains until it becomes automatic. It would seem to me that a laser encourages the shooter to focus on the target which is the antithesis to what the schools teach. Is this correct?

CalMeacham
07-19-2005, 09:47 AM
I hate to burst your bubble CalMeacham but laser sights aren't as exotic as you seem to think.

??????

Why do you think that I think these are exotic? What "bubble" do you burst?

Padeye
07-19-2005, 10:32 AM
If you wanted to use your laser sight for sniping, it'd probably be best to fib about it when you're orderingJust a little tongue in cheek but I don't think you have to make up a fib to buy a glorified laser pointer. I realize that snipering implies shooting people but my remark was more that I don't have to justify my purchase in any way to Lasermax. Some weapon models and accessories are voluntarily limited to police or military sales by the manufacturer but AFAIK lasers aren't among them. Perhaps Lasermax's products are not exotic but they are certainly more expensive than I have seen elsewhere.

Crafter_Man, you make a good point that eye should be focused on front sight so it is clear but I don't think anyone is suggesting training people to shoot with a laser as the primary aiming device. Still when faced with a defensive shooting I think it is critical to have one's attention focused on the target so there is absolutely no uncertainty what/who it is. I think the possibility is very real that a stressed person focusing on the front sight may experience tunnel vision so they can't identify the target and the ability to aim while looking at the big picture may prevent this. I prefer to have a tactical light mounted on my home defensive weapon but I think it is perfectly legitimate to use a laser in defensive situations as long as there is sufficient light in the room or from a handheld light.

Never without my surefire even when I don't have a gun
Padeye

Hampshire
07-19-2005, 11:54 AM
How about shooting from the hip with a pistol in each hand?

Black Bart in a shoot-out at the O.K. Corral would love to have a couple lasers on his six-shooters.

CalMeacham
07-19-2005, 01:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalMeacham
If you wanted to use your laser sight for sniping, it'd probably be best to fib about it when you're ordering

Just a little tongue in cheek but I don't think you have to make up a fib to buy a glorified laser pointer.

You obviously missed my joke.

Triskadecamus
07-19-2005, 02:01 PM
I am old, and my hands tremble. This is even more evident when I hold my pistol out for normal sighting, and I have to compensate by letting it bob up, and firing on the down swing. It affects my total accuracy, and even more, the rate at which I can fire especially the first round.

I can use a lightweight pistol with a built in laser by holding it close to my body, with both hands, down low. It doesn't tremble there. I can acquire the target faster, and get off the first round faster, and change to another target faster. I also improve my accuracy at longer ranges. I can fire five rounds with the single action laser pistol in the same time that I can fire aimed shots with my automatic pistol.

I wish I could afford the six hundred dollars.

Tris

Padeye
07-19-2005, 02:32 PM
$600 for what Tris?

Chronos
07-19-2005, 03:57 PM
Quoth Bear_Nenno:And there are no paralax issues, and no adjusting. Once you zero it, it's good to go for all distances. Just like your iron sights!!Incorrect. A red-dot reticle, a laser targetter, a sighting scope, and a pair of iron sights would all have exactly the same issues with regards to parallax and bullet drop, and all of them can only be correct at a single distance. Any sort of visual targetting method will target along a straight line not directly aligned with the barrel, and the bullet will always follow a curved path which matches that straight line at only one point.

Metacom
07-19-2005, 04:11 PM
Also, wouldn't a visible laser capable of remaining a focused dot at sniper ranges be pretty bulky? I remember playing with lenses in physics classes (not that I remember any of the terminology) that were designed to keep a beam from spreading out. They made the "spot" bigger at the expense of making it spread out less over distance, and mounting them on a rifle along with a scope seems like it would be a challenge.

Padeye
07-19-2005, 04:17 PM
Chronos, Bear_Nenno was referring to parallax for the shooter's eye position. Magnifying telescope sights need to be adjusted for the specific target range or movements of the shooters eye can cause the crosshair to move relative the target and cause aiming error. Non magnifying red dot sights don't have this problem which is the advantage he was talking about. Instead of aligning a front sight to a rear sight and both of those to the target you just look through and put the red dot where you want the bullets to go. I used one to teach my wife to shoot handguns and she became confident and proficient much faster than she might have using iron sights.

Hampshire one of my round tuit projects will be a replica antique pistol, probably a Colt's 1851 navy, tricked out like a 1911 race gun complete with reflex sight, laser, muzzle compensator and whatever else I can add. Shooting quickly from the hip without a laser is much harder than it looks in the movies.

Triskadecamus
07-19-2005, 04:50 PM
$600 for what Tris?Remington 32+p J frame revolver with built in laser designator. Sweet piece.

Tris

Triskadecamus
07-19-2005, 05:10 PM
Typo, it's a 38 + p, not a 32.

Cartooniverse
07-19-2005, 06:50 PM
I imagine a laser sight has a certain intimidation value for law enforcement. If the bad guy sees a multitude of red dots focused on his center of mass, I can imagine there's a chance that he'd think twice about trying anything silly.

Which is why law enforcement types don't cotton to people using them. Ever. Even as jokes. I was standing in the Georgia Dome working on the Super Bowl in January, 2000. I was oh, say, 10-15 feet from the sidelines. The game was close to kickoff but had not begun yet. I saw a laser dot- on my shoulder. Then on my chest. I was suitably freaked out but nothing compared to the cop who saw the dot on my body.

Turns out a camera guy a hundred yards off was using it to mess with me. Came very close to being thrown out by the Georgia State Police ( or, whoever the cops were who were all over at that game ).

Laser dots appearing on people is generally regarded as a threat. Post 9/11, I'd guess cops are even twitchier about it. Until a cop pops in here to dispute this, I'd say no law enforcement group advocates the use of a laser pointer or laser targeting system to freak out a criminal.

Cartooniverse

Hombre
07-20-2005, 12:39 AM
It's true. I was lased at a gun show and the jokster was promptly tossed out!

Hoo-wee! Just about what I thought I'd find here.

Re: the OP,
If your are sniper-ing, you should know the distance so in theory a laser system should work fine.
In my experience, though, it is hard to see at great distances during the day. You don't specify the distance or the environment.

Regarding all the other arguments here, usually any gun question will bring out peoples personal preferences.
Knowing how to use open sites propely will not interfere with using a laser on sidearms for fast target acquisition and intimidation.
A lot of gun use is choice. There is not just one way.

Padeye
07-20-2005, 12:17 PM
Which is why law enforcement types don't cotton to people using them. Ever.The incidents you and Hombre are talking about appear to be harassment with a laser pointer though I am assuming that the laser pointing at him was not also attached to a gun. I completely agree that kind of behavor it tantamount to a threat with a gun and should not be taken lightly but I have never heard that any police discourge the user of laser aiming devices for legitimate self defense use.

Even as jokes.I'd change that to especially. One should never, ever joke with a deadly weapon or something that may be percieved as a weapon.

dropzone
07-20-2005, 12:55 PM
Buncha questions:

1. I've seen how bulky a sniper and his spotter are. How do they get away afterwards if "cover" consists of, oh, high grass? Are they banking on the search area being 360 degrees and being small dots moving 300 meters off?

2. I'm not a shooter. How do you hit the target if you are concentrating on the front sight?

3. Completely off topic, why is shooting "gangsta style" less accurate?

Crafter_Man
07-20-2005, 01:51 PM
I'm not a shooter. How do you hit the target if you are concentrating on the front sight?You focus on the front sight. You can still see your target, but it will not be in focus.

Completely off topic, why is shooting "gangsta style" less accurate?When you shoot a gun any gun you should assume the steadiest position possible (in the amount of time you have) and line up your sights with the target.

Padeye
07-20-2005, 01:55 PM
1. I've seen how bulky a sniper and his spotter are. How do they get away afterwards if "cover" consists of, oh, high grass? Are they banking on the search area being 360 degrees and being small dots moving 300 meters off?More or less. Those are the skills that separate a military sniper from someone who can just shoot a rifle well. That's among the many reasons bulky guys like me aren't snipers. :p
2. I'm not a shooter. How do you hit the target if you are concentrating on the front sight?That might be some confusion with a diffecurent meanings of the word focus. The shooter cannot visually focus so the rear sight, front sight and target are all seen sharply at once. Focusing on the front sight is by far the most accurate but of course the shooter should always concenltrate on the target to clearaly identify it. With handguns the rear sight and target won't be that badly out of focus. With a rifle using peep sights like an M16 the rear sight is so close to the shooter's eye it appears as a blurry, indistinct "ghost ring" but this type of sight can be extremely precise even though it doesn't seem right to a non shooter.
3. Completely off topic, why is shooting "gangsta style" less accurate?The sights on a handgun take into account how the gun moves in recoil against the shooter's hand and this won't work the same when holding sideways. I've never tried it so I honestly can't say though if you could get a consistent group that could be compensated for by adjusting the sights. I have shot a handgun upside (hand right side up with pinkie in the trigger guard) down after seeing a demonstration by a coach and it actually works better than I expected.

Marconi & Schmeese
07-20-2005, 02:42 PM
I would love a laser sight on my Glock 40 (my inside gun), but alas my understanding is that they are illegal in my state. So I have nightsights on it instead. Last thing I want is the police asking me more questions if I have to kill an intruder. :rolleyes:

I'm female, by the way.

I also own Soviet night vision goggles and a specific shotgun is on my Christmas list.

You'd never believe it if you saw me. :D

QuizCustodet
07-20-2005, 02:59 PM
Quoth Bear_Nenno:Incorrect. A red-dot reticle, a laser targetter, a sighting scope, and a pair of iron sights would all have exactly the same issues with regards to parallax and bullet drop, and all of them can only be correct at a single distance. Any sort of visual targetting method will target along a straight line not directly aligned with the barrel, and the bullet will always follow a curved path which matches that straight line at only one point.

Slight nit-pick - sights intended to be used at distance are almost universally aligned so that the weapon's barrel is angled upwards. The bullet thus traces the top of a parabola, and provided the line of the sight is not tangential to that path, if it intersects at all it will intersect twice: once as the bullet is travelling upwards and once as it is travelling down.

This is typically used to advantage by the military: for the 5.56 round fired through the SA80 using iron sights or the SUSAT (4x scope), a bullet that is on target at 25 meters will also be on target at some multiple of 100 meters. (I think it's 100 meters, but without doing the math 200 or 300 is equally plausible.) Thus you can have a group of six guys zeroing their weapons on a 25 meter range while the previous group does the actual shooting on an x-hundred meter range.

Padeye
07-20-2005, 04:09 PM
Marconi & Schmeese, I wasn't aware that any state banned laser sights. Where do you live?

...not that I plan on calling on you in the middle of the night. No way am I doing that.

dropzone
07-20-2005, 04:25 PM
Focusing on the front sight is by far the most accurate....With BB guns I'm fairly accurate focusing on the target while monitoring the haze that is the sights. I wear bifocals and could probably use trifocals so if I can see the target the rear sight is hopeless and the front sight is in that nether world where it cannot be focused on with either lens.The sights on a handgun take into account how the gun moves in recoil against the shooter's hand and this won't work the same when holding sideways.Oh, I see, you are AIMING. Dontcha know that when you shoot gangsta style it doesn't matter what you hit? :D

From a review of a Chinese-built Broomhandle Mauser: (http://iar-arms.com/mausereview1.htm)Recognizing the Mauser's weak and strong points, the Chinese developed the following technique for using the C-96 and later the 712. They would hold it sideways (what we would today refer to as "Gangbanger style"), with the index finger lying on the magazine well pointing at the target, and pull the trigger with the middle finger. In doing so they found that they could throw the weapon up very quickly and be instinctively pointing it at the target. There were also two side benefits from shooting the pistol in this manner. As the Mauser ejects straight up, fired cases can fall back into the weapon and jam it, or fall on the operator's head and distract him. These problems were eliminated. There was one additional side benefit when the selective fire weapons came into service. They found they could master the pistol fired on full auto to produce a deadly horizontal traversing fire instead of its simply climbing uncontrollably. Having fired a Mauser 712 on full auto, I can attest that the muzzle climbs very fast! They are adamant that their method allows the 7 12 to be used quite effectively regardless of traditional Western thinking. They felt this method was particularly effective for room clearing during house to house fighting.

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