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View Full Version : Is it possible to win Spider solitaire at the advanced level?


Renee
01-06-2007, 01:59 PM
Have you ever done it? Know anyone that has?

Annie-Xmas
01-06-2007, 02:14 PM
I've done it several times. I think my best score was around 230.

Sam Stone
01-06-2007, 02:16 PM
I haven't done it. I searched a web a few days ago for strategies, to see what I was doing wrong. Seems I'm playing the game pretty much correctly. Some of the sites I hit claim that the game is regularly beatable, but they don't specifically mention the windows version. I'm playing the one that came with Vista, in four suits. With two suits, I can routinely beat it. I've played about 250 games with four suits, and have yet to win one.

What can I say - I'm a masochist.

Harriet the Spry
01-06-2007, 02:59 PM
I have won it, maybe 3 or 4 times. My husband wins more frequently. I'm not sure what his secret is.

ElvisL1ves
01-06-2007, 08:34 PM
Yes, I do it about 1 time in 20, and yes, that first time felt pretty good.

It does require a willingness to split up runs, and a fanatical devotion to exposing as many cards as possible as early as possible in the game.

gallows fodder
01-11-2007, 04:01 AM
This thread inspired me to take on Spider Solitaire at the advanced level, and I'd like to report that after 34 games, tonight I beat it in 261 moves for a score of 1039.

If not for the encouragement this thread provided, I would never have found the guts to try. *sniff* :)

(Seriously, I always thought it was impossible, too, until reading otherwise.)

MadTheSwine
01-11-2007, 12:24 PM
The game I know as Spider I have played 20 times and beat it 13 times,so I dont think its the same as the OP's game.What are the rules to the OP's game?

MadTheSwine
01-11-2007, 12:33 PM
Should have posted this with my other post,do any of you have a PC game called Solataires Journey?I started a thread about it but got no response.

Dr. Drake
01-11-2007, 01:56 PM
I usually win about one in every twenty games. I have won twice in a row but never thrice in a row (my elusive goal)! It's been my non-SDMB time-waster of choice for about 15 years now, though. (Yes, I have a very high boredom threshold, why?)

Renee
01-11-2007, 03:12 PM
The game I know as Spider I have played 20 times and beat it 13 times,so I dont think its the same as the OP's game.What are the rules to the OP's game?

This (http://geocities.com/spidersolitairegame/spiderbig.gif) is what the game I'm talking about looks like. It was bundled with my Windows XP software. I don't really want to try to describe the rules, although someone else is welcome to. There are three levels you can choose from; beginner is one suite of cards, intermediate is two suites, and advanced is four suites.

Quartz
01-11-2007, 03:58 PM
It's not easy, but I beat it 2 times out of 3. The trick is t save your game at appropriate moments so you can go back. It keeps me busy for an hour or so.

Doctor Who
01-11-2007, 04:16 PM
It's not easy, but I beat it 2 times out of 3. The trick is t save your game at appropriate moments so you can go back. It keeps me busy for an hour or so.
Yeah - you can do it that way. In a similar vein, here are three simple tactics to keep in mind in order to beat Spider at the 4 suit level:

(1) CTRL-Z. That's "undo." So what you do is, see what's underneath cards / how certain options will play out. Then Ctrl-Z back to your moment of choice and try again.

Example: Say you have a 10 showing and 2 9s. Place the first 9 on the 10. See what's underneath it - and carry on playing. After you get stuck, Ctrl-Z all the way back to your choice of 9s. Try the other choice.

Sure it detracts from your score - but it makes the game beatable.

(2) Try to get at least one, but hopefully 2 open slots. That is, remove all the cards from one of the slots. That gives you tremendous possibilities to see what's underneath other cards / begin constructing runs.

(3) Don't slavishly put suits together. Sometimes putting a 3 of hearts on a 4 diams (even when there is a 3 diams available) can be the best move because of what it opens up. In fact, sometimes you may want to split up runs that are already together. Be flexible.

Using those three guidelines, you can beat Spider on the highest level.

Renee
01-11-2007, 05:24 PM
(1) CTRL-Z. That's "undo." So what you do is, see what's underneath cards / how certain options will play out. Then Ctrl-Z back to your moment of choice and try again.

Example: Say you have a 10 showing and 2 9s. Place the first 9 on the 10. See what's underneath it - and carry on playing. After you get stuck, Ctrl-Z all the way back to your choice of 9s. Try the other choice.

.

I had no idea you could undo more than one move back! How did I miss that?

wring
01-11-2007, 05:33 PM
I had no idea you could undo more than one move back! How did I miss that?
you can undo all the way back to the deal (unless you have a run run out)

Auntbeast
01-11-2007, 05:38 PM
I've recently switched over to Ubuntu (Linux) and it has solitaire, for some reason, I am much, much worse at this version, haven't really figured out why.

Yes, I've beat it, but damned if I know how or why.

C K Dexter Haven
01-11-2007, 06:30 PM
The "undo" is critical to winning, you can undo many steps -- back to the deal or back to when a full suit was pulled off in order.

I play often, I win around 8% of the time. My son thinks that's a crappy percent to keep me going, but I find it a harmless and mind-numbing kinda game.

Voyager
01-11-2007, 07:04 PM
The undo is the key. I only undo once, but maybe I'll cheat more now.

One or two open slots allows you to swap runs of complementary suits, very helpful.

I don't start a game unless I see three moves in the initial layout. Makes things less frustrating.

And I have won twice in a row once!

Ice Machine
01-11-2007, 07:05 PM
Major timewaster for me too. I use Doctor Who's tactics and manage to win 10-15% of the time. My goal is also to win 3 in a row which I haven't managed yet.

as_u_wish
01-11-2007, 09:12 PM
I began playing spider 40 years ago--using real cards. I have a Solitaire Master version that has many varieties of spider (such as 4 deck versions). On my current version of Solitaire Master (about 4 years old) I have played 1970 games, with 1968 wins and 2 losses. I am VERY persistent, needless to say.

I didn't realize Windows had spider--I thought it only had free cell. I tried my first game today and won it fairly easily with 338 moves. I made frequent use of the control-z "un-do" feature. Solitaire Master allows you to undo a deal, which Windows does not permit.

Three things I've learned:

The key to winning spider is (for want of a better term) "file maintenance." Take the time to rearrange and then rearrange again and again to get "in suit" sequences, even short ones. It often seems a waste of time, but later in the game having 5-6 of hearts rather than 5 diamonds-6 hearts can make all the difference. it may take 10 or 20 moves to correct two cards (especially if they are Queens, Jacks or tens), but it's critical. Also, pick certain suit combinations and stick to them when you can. I do my best to match clubs with hearts and spades with diamonds when I cannot match within a single suit.

Do whatever it takes to get those spaces and keep them as clean as possible. You can do amazing things with a couple of spaces especially if you have a couple of long single suit sequences.

Don't be in a hurry to get a full sequence of K-A off the board. Sequences are often extremely useful for expediting file maintenance.

I love the game. With practice it is very winnable and (IMHO) the most satisfying of the various solitaire varieties.

jacquilynne
01-11-2007, 10:03 PM
According to my Spider statistics, my win rate is 4%. I, however, don't play 75% of the games I start past the first deal, because I figure they're losers and stop. It might be fractionally higher if I gave a few more of those games a chance.

My longest winning streak is 3.

My highest score is 1112.

susan
01-12-2007, 02:06 AM
My partner always plays the difficult level, and wins pretty frequently.

Quartz
01-12-2007, 03:15 AM
And, of course, having posted that, I failed miserably on the next three.

amarinth
01-12-2007, 04:53 AM
I had no idea you could undo more than one move back! How did I miss that?In the version I use, you can undo all the way back to the beginning.
In the Windows version, you're limited in an unfortunate way.

It's beatable either way - just less beatable if you can't really go back and say "yeah, that was the wrong four."

ftg
01-12-2007, 11:12 AM
I just checked the stats on the version I play. (Junod's 1992 old Win3.1 version.) It has me at winning around 35%. But since my goal is not just win, but win with not moving any piles up, I will frequently quit if I can't achieve that. I also will usually not bother moving piles up once I'm done. So figure at least 50%, maybe a lot higher.

Pretty Good Solitaire does a better job of keeping stats, but I hate playing it. It automatically moves piles up (which I have to back up) and that can't be turned off.

Neither game keeps score like Sun Solitaire which has not moving piles up as a bonus rather than a penalty.

Jodi
01-12-2007, 01:16 PM
Wait -- Am I the only one who considers the "undo" a bit of a cheat? You make your move, you live with it; you don't get to move your cards/pieces back and reset them if it ends up you made a bad choice. I'm not basing this on some set-in-stone rule for Spider Solitaire, but just on general rules of game play, so I'm not being critical of those who disagree with me.

I play it with the "undo" but once I've "undone" I sort of consider the rest of the game a throwaway. I would consider a true "win" at the advanced level to be one where you didn't back the game up when you realized it wasn't going your way. Has anyone ever won it without the "undo"? FTR, I can't win at the advanced level even with the "undo." :)

Doctor Who
01-12-2007, 03:30 PM
Wait -- Am I the only one who considers the "undo" a bit of a cheat? You make your move, you live with it; you don't get to move your cards/pieces back and reset them if it ends up you made a bad choice.
For some games, I would agree with you. Not, however, for Spider Solitaire. Why? Because I consider it to be, first and foremost, a puzzle game.

For me, all puzzles are the slow process of evaluating and making the proper decision between a variety of options. Does this fit there? Will this fit here? What about this option?

Playing Spider in a purist fashion is just moving cards onto their like suit and hoping that you hit a good run / get lucky when you decide to move this 9 or that 9. You hardly ever win that way (probably never on the hard level) and it's just not as interesting as figuring things out.

So if it helps to assuage your guilt ( ;) ) Consider Spider like a puzzle. You put pieces together, you try things --- if they don't work, you undo them and reconsider.

Ludovic
01-12-2007, 04:01 PM
In addition, if you're playing for points, you'll get fewer points when you win the more you backtrack.

Quiddity Glomfuster
01-13-2007, 12:08 AM
I just did it! First time! Whee!

I'd tried it before and given it up for a lost cause but after reading this thread, I thought I'd take another whack at it. I did better than I have in some 2-suit games; took me three tries to win it!

I guess it's the extensive practice with shuffling runs around in the 2-suit game that made the 4-suit game seem easy. I don't know how much I'll play it, though. I think I prefer the pace and strategy of the 2-suit game but at least I no longer feel like a knob who can't manage the 4-suit variation - yay!

Savannah
01-13-2007, 12:38 AM
I win it regularly. But I will replay and replay until I do, and I get rather testy if I don't win eventually. (Four suite version.)

Harriet the Spry
01-13-2007, 04:01 PM
For the record, my occasional wins have been without using undo. Just to say, it is possible. I hadn't thought of approaching it like a puzzle and using undo liberally (is that my husband's secret??? hmmm). I'd consider that, but I have a tendency to be a purist on that type of thing.

Alan Smithee
01-14-2007, 03:33 AM
I don't play Spider very often, but when I do, it would never have occurred to me to use Ctl-Z the way most of you do. Like Jodi, I might do it out of idle curiosity (I wonder if doing that would have worked?) or frustration (Is this game even winnable?), but I never as a strategy. Why not just deal all the cards face up? (Obviously you can't if it's on a computer, but doesn't that tell you something?)

Of course, now I'll have to try it, but if it turns I like it better, I'll be a bit mad that the game is "flawed" in my mind. It just . . . shouldn't be that way!

Quiddity Glomfuster
01-14-2007, 10:48 AM
Well I figure if I'm just going to retry the game until I win, it's faster to 'undo' portions of one game than to start all over again. Either way, I'll win eventually so to my mind it's not a cheat. I do often restart games from the beginning when my 'conservative' strategy is failing and I go to the 'radical' strategy.

For Freecell, OTOH, I had a rule of my own that I couldn't start a new run in an empty space unless I started it with a king (like classic solitaire). It's not a Freecell rule but it was mine and, as with Spider, I won most games eventually so I kept to my rule.

jobowo
02-05-2013, 02:05 PM
...at least on the Windows 7 version of SS. I'm currently on a streak of 115 straight wins with the Advanced option, which leads me to believe that all games are winnable (although one game took me about 4,000 moves to win).

Strategies that I use to reduce the difficulty of winning a hand are:


Use F2 to find a starting hand with at least 3 in a run in one suit
Try to have, in addition, 2-3 more moves
Avoid hands starting with 3 or more of a kind (eg 3 aces)
Avoid hands with more than 2 kings


Once you have a starting hand, you'll know within the first "deal" whether this is going to be a "points" hand (minimum moves = no CTL-Z). If it is clear that it isn't going to be an easy win, starting hand, be merciless in using CTL-Z. Very few games are winnable without using it so you might as well use it--even returning to the start if you have to.

Use other strategies mentioned here to the max.

Move the cards from right to left if you can because the goal is to exhaust piles as soon as you can and there is one less card on the six rightmost piles.

Of course always try for same suit moves but on the really tough hands you may find that you can break it by doing something unexpected, like putting the 5 of clubs on the 6 of hearts instead of the also-available 5 of hearts.

Always try to have as many piles with a run or only one card face up on a pile as possible at the end of each deal. For example, if you have a pile with a long run (face up) ending in a six and a 5 on top of a six of a different suit on a second pile, move the five to the long run. The reason for this is that you want to be able to turn cards up and you chances of doing that are greater with only one card or a run of the same suit.

Use garbage piles. In other words, if you already have a pile that has 3 cards of various suits, pile more cards on the bottom of that in order to preserve piles with only one card or a run.

Could go on but you'll figure this out.

The Advanced game is a continual challenge but fun once you get the hang of it. Never give up on a game. I had one game where I had no possible moves for the last 3 deals but managed to work away until I got one move on the last deal and then won.

I'm not completely sure of this, but I'm fairly sure that I've observed that using CTL-Z results in a slightly different deal the next time, so a game which may have been unwinnable may turn into one that is winnable. Don't quote me on that though!

Living Well Is Best Revenge
02-05-2013, 02:14 PM
I've done it a few times. Maybe 3 or 4.

Ellen Cherry
02-06-2013, 11:39 AM
Moving thread from IMHO to Game Room.

Sicks Ate
02-06-2013, 11:43 AM
Shuffle that zombie on over.




swidt

TriPolar
02-06-2013, 11:45 AM
There are other threads on this. Yes it's possible, I've done it many times, and I don't use Undo. But it's not easy. Look for the other threads, some strategies are laid out. But it's not like Freecell where all but a few games are winnable (unless you use Undo or restart the game). You have no idea what cards will be uncovered from a stack, so it's a matter of best guesses.

Just checked my stats, I have a 4% win rate.


ETA:
Ugh! Zombie Solitaire.

Voyager
02-06-2013, 03:42 PM
I reset my stats a while ago and now am at a 10% win rate. I do ctl-z, and don't even look at points. My record is three consecutive wins - maybe done that once. I don't play unless there are four suit -on-suit moves available. I've seen that I win far more often when you can get four consecutive in a suit from the opening directly.
I think the secret is really figuring out the complex move sequences to build up runs of a suit. Empty piles help a lot. I'm pretty sure not all hands are winnable, since I think you can easily construct one that isn't.
I spend way too much time on this game, as should be obvious.

Asympotically fat
02-06-2013, 04:14 PM
I have a 5% win rate on advanced, but I tend to quit a lot of games I could've won, as I like to play in a certain way and the cards don't always fall that way. My best score on advanced is 1098.

madsircool
02-06-2013, 04:33 PM
...at least on the Windows 7 version of SS. I'm currently on a streak of 115 straight wins with the Advanced option, which leads me to believe that all games are winnable (although one game took me about 4,000 moves to win).

Strategies that I use to reduce the difficulty of winning a hand are:


Use F2 to find a starting hand with at least 3 in a run in one suit
Try to have, in addition, 2-3 more moves
Avoid hands starting with 3 or more of a kind (eg 3 aces)
Avoid hands with more than 2 kings



Seems like you are contradicting yourself. You say that all hands are winnable but then only play hands with 3 in a run.

Asympotically fat
02-06-2013, 05:20 PM
From my experience I would be very surprised if all hands of four suit spider solitaire are winnable, you can sometimes get a very a poor initial layout and I don't see how you could win them unless the cards in the stack are in a very favourable order. This site claims only about half are winnable:

http://solitaireinnovations.com/microsoftSolitaireGames.html

TriPolar
02-06-2013, 06:13 PM
I reset my stats a while ago and now am at a 10% win rate. I do ctl-z, and don't even look at points. My record is three consecutive wins - maybe done that once. I don't play unless there are four suit -on-suit moves available. I've seen that I win far more often when you can get four consecutive in a suit from the opening directly.
I think the secret is really figuring out the complex move sequences to build up runs of a suit. Empty piles help a lot. I'm pretty sure not all hands are winnable, since I think you can easily construct one that isn't.
I spend way too much time on this game, as should be obvious.


I did get three in row once without Undo, but that was plain dumb luck. Two in a row is rare enough.


From my experience I would be very surprised if all hands of four suit spider solitaire are winnable, you can sometimes get a very a poor initial layout and I don't see how you could win them unless the cards in the stack are in a very favourable order. This site claims only about half are winnable:

http://solitaireinnovations.com/microsoftSolitaireGames.html

I think there must be unwinnable games because of the initial layout. You can also get in sticky situations. I had a great game going once and with one deal left i had only four cards left. Guess what, you can't get the last deal unless you have a card in every column.

Voyager
02-07-2013, 12:30 AM
I think there must be unwinnable games because of the initial layout. You can also get in sticky situations. I had a great game going once and with one deal left i had only four cards left. Guess what, you can't get the last deal unless you have a card in every column.

That's an interesting bug! I bet they never considered the case where all the last 9 cards are of the same suit. You should report it to save someone else - about 50 years from now.

TriPolar
02-07-2013, 12:52 AM
That's an interesting bug! I bet they never considered the case where all the last 9 cards are of the same suit. You should report it to save someone else - about 50 years from now.

I wouldn't call it a bug. It's inherent in the game. If I'd paid attention I would have realized I had bound myself up that way.

sunacres
02-07-2013, 04:55 PM
I'm currently 62 wins to 3965 losses, high score of 1160 (on my current phone, I can't remember my stats from my old phone). Never won two in a row.

I never undo, ever.

I find the game (rather than the puzzle) perfect, despite the crazily low likelihood of "success." I appreciate the idea of allowing infinite undo as a puzzle, but that's not me.

TriPolar
02-07-2013, 05:01 PM
I'm currently 62 wins to 3965 losses, high score of 1160 (on my current phone, I can't remember my stats from my old phone). Never won two in a row.

I never undo, ever.

I find the game (rather than the puzzle) perfect, despite the crazily low likelihood of "success." I appreciate the idea of allowing infinite undo as a puzzle, but that's not me.

My high score is just 1116. I make a lot of unneccesary moves just to consider the choices, and a lot of rearranging to consolidate suits. Maybe one day I'll try to play for score, but I enjoy just trying to win. I don't use Undo because if I start then I'll end up trying every possible path through a game and each one will take hours or days.

jobowo
02-07-2013, 07:29 PM
To recap: I posted the notion that all games are potentially winnable above and some have had their doubts about this.

To be sure that never occurred to me either until this last run of more than 100 straight games. I was defeated at 28 in a row by what seemed to be an impossible-to-win game and again at 44 in a row the same way. But this time I got a monstrous deal at 59 in a row and was determined to reach 60 to beat it. When I did (after some 4,000 moves) I began to suspect that every game was winnable and this notion proved to be a great aid to winning in spite of further apparently impossible deals...and kept working. The trick to winning really difficult hands is to do something weird, like--as I wrote above--putting the 5 of clubs on the 6 of hearts instead of the (more obvious choice) of the 5 of hearts...or even not moving a card when you could!

I don't know for sure that every game is winnable; I just suspect it.

To answer madsircool (who pointed out the apparent contradiction of restricting started games to say 3 in a sequence if all games are winnable, I did emphasize that the starting strategy was intended to reduce the frequency of almost impossible games. 4,000 moves is awfully tiring.

And as for those who shun the use of Undo: entirely understandable. It depends on how you get your jollies when playing. I find that the Advanced game presents quite enough challenges to make it fun (1,000 moves or more is quite common) even with Undo and I don't enjoy the idea of being defeated by the pure chance of whether at each move, I turn over card A instead of card B. There's just too much luck involved in that--although I think that strategy might be better at making the Intermediate level more challenging.

Judah
03-12-2013, 09:09 PM
For some games, I would agree with you. Not, however, for Spider Solitaire. Why? Because I consider it to be, first and foremost, a puzzle game.

For me, all puzzles are the slow process of evaluating and making the proper decision between a variety of options. Does this fit there? Will this fit here? What about this option?

Playing Spider in a purist fashion is just moving cards onto their like suit and hoping that you hit a good run / get lucky when you decide to move this 9 or that 9. You hardly ever win that way (probably never on the hard level) and it's just not as interesting as figuring things out.

So if it helps to assuage your guilt ( ;) ) Consider Spider like a puzzle. You put pieces together, you try things --- if they don't work, you undo them and reconsider.I think you're underestimating the level of strategy there is in the "purist" version. It takes a lot more thinking/calculating than you describe. In fact, I'd say it takes more strategy than using undo, because you need to figure out which of the possible moves give you the best chances of progressing, rather than just trying them all, if necessary, backtracking if you get stuck.

It's definitely possible to win games in the 4-suit version without using undo, but mindlessly moving cards onto like suits isn't enough to win very many of them.

Sam Stone
03-14-2013, 04:21 PM
There's definitely a superior strategy in the 'never undo' version of playing that will result in better results than just always moving cards onto like suits when possible. However, that win rate is still going to be crazy low, which can make the game frustrating.

I prefer to play with undo now, because it makes the game far richer. With undo you can plan multi-step strategies and complex off-suit moves. I've been playing like this for a few years, and have yet to run into a game that I couldn't beat. I've had streaks measured in hundreds of winning games that only end when I do something stupid like accidentally press restart instead of undoing.

That said, I'm sure it's possible to construct games that can't be won if it's a truly random shuffle. It's just exceedingly unlikely. Probably more unlikely than getting a royal flush in poker considering the number of potential combinations and moves you'd have to cut off.

Judah
03-19-2013, 08:30 AM
There's definitely a superior strategy in the 'never undo' version of playing that will result in better results than just always moving cards onto like suits when possible. However, that win rate is still going to be crazy low, which can make the game frustrating.

I prefer to play with undo now, because it makes the game far richer. With undo you can plan multi-step strategies and complex off-suit moves.You can do all this without undo, too—in fact, you have to plan better, because if you miscalculate, it's a big deal. Meanwhile, there's a whole category of calculation—"which move is most likely to help me?"—that only applies if you play without undo.

If you think that playing with undo makes the game far richer, I submit that you haven't sufficiently explored the game without it. After all, you say, I've been playing like this for a few years, and have yet to run into a game that I couldn't beat. I've had streaks measured in hundreds of winning games that only end when I do something stupid like accidentally press restart instead of undoing.It sounds like you've pretty much solved the game with the use of undo. Doesn't that mean you've plumbed its strategic depths? On the other hand, you imply that your win rate without it is "crazy low", which suggests that there's room to improve your strategy there. For what it's worth, my win rate without using undo is around 40%, and I'm fairly sure that my play is not "optimal".

jobowo
03-21-2013, 11:15 AM
There's definitely a superior strategy in the 'never undo' version of playing that will result in better results than just always moving cards onto like suits when possible.

I'm not sure how this approach (just moving cards onto like suits) entered the discussion. I certainly don't use it and I doubt that anyone playing the game at this level does.

In fact I would suggest "undo" players and "nundo" players would arrive at the same initial strategies relatively quickly, although with different motivations. This isn't rocket science: there are only a limited number of possible strategies. The nundo player wishes to increase his or her success percentage but the undo player doesn't wish to waste any more of his life that he is already doing. So both would likely start each hand with the same moves for the same reasons. The play would be the same up until the point--at the end of the hand or perhaps earlier--where success is clearly not going to happen. At this point, the undo player simply retreats and begins to embark on new strategies to win the hand.

The nundo player is more limited in choices. S/he is obliged to embark on those strategies that produce the highest chance of winning. In a situation where the face-up cards include 2 nine of clubs--one on a stack of 3 cards, one on a stack of 4--a ten of clubs and a ten of spades, the nundo player must choose the one play (nine of clubs on the stack of 3 to ten of clubs) that has the highest probability of winning. The undo player will follow that strategy too, as I've said, until it is apparent that it isn't going to work. He or she will then start undoing to find which assumption was wrong, if necessary trying each of the 4 other options (including not moving either nine) at the position above. And there are other strategies that an undo player must adopt that a nundo player cannot. For example, I often have to place a card or stack on a different spot knowing what card was going to follow on that spot when the next round is dealt. The nundo play never encounters that problem.

But all in all, I think that this discussion of 'better' method is all about as fruitful as a discussion among mothers about which baby is the cutest or whether Windows is better than Linux. Everyone is going to arrive at the conclusion that their own is the cutest/best/smartest for their own different reasons. Each of us is different and chooses according to our likes and dislikes. Comparisons may be tempting but ultimately they're meaningless.

Judah
06-18-2013, 11:58 PM
In fact I would suggest "undo" players and "nundo" players would arrive at the same initial strategies relatively quickly, although with different motivations. This isn't rocket science: there are only a limited number of possible strategies. The nundo player wishes to increase his or her success percentage but the undo player doesn't wish to waste any more of his life that he is already doing. So both would likely start each hand with the same moves for the same reasons. The play would be the same up until the point--at the end of the hand or perhaps earlier--where success is clearly not going to happen. At this point, the undo player simply retreats and begins to embark on new strategies to win the hand.

The nundo player is more limited in choices. S/he is obliged to embark on those strategies that produce the highest chance of winning.... The undo player will follow that strategy too, as I've said, until it is apparent that it isn't going to work.I don't believe this is true. A "nundo" player has to consider which strategy produces the highest chance of winning, but an "undo" player has no reason to consider this: he can simply try all possibilities until he finds the best one.

jobowo
07-09-2013, 12:20 PM
... an "undo" player has no reason to consider this: he can simply try all possibilities until he finds the best one.

You seem to be making an assumption: that an undo player enjoys wasting whole days trying one random, mindless move after another. Does that really make sense? Personally, I have all kinds of motive to find the quickest solution possible to any game; there's no reason to assume that undo players are any less intelligent and competitive than a nundo player. The approach you suggest wouldn't work. To just try one random move after would require at least that you keep track of which moves you've tried, and even then there is a lot of head-scratching to figure out what other moves are possible.

I strongly recommend to any nundo player making comments about the undo game, that at least you try it for 100 hands and then at least you'd be in a position to properly understand it.

TriPolar
07-09-2013, 01:11 PM
The only difference between using undo and not using it is that once you make an irreversible move you're stuck with it. That's all. I don't see any reason that players wouldn't use the same strategy whether or not they use undo. As far as matching up suits, it's usually the last consideration of a move. Given all other things being equal you place one suit on another. An exception would be maintaining suit in a long column where there are still cards to turn over in the stack for that column, but you'd have to be nearing the end of the game to determine that was worth doing.

Voyager
07-12-2013, 07:26 PM
The only difference between using undo and not using it is that once you make an irreversible move you're stuck with it. That's all. I don't see any reason that players wouldn't use the same strategy whether or not they use undo. As far as matching up suits, it's usually the last consideration of a move. Given all other things being equal you place one suit on another. An exception would be maintaining suit in a long column where there are still cards to turn over in the stack for that column, but you'd have to be nearing the end of the game to determine that was worth doing.

Well, if you have multiple cards that can go on another, all of different suits, an undo player would be foolish to at least look what was under each, something the nundo player can't. But besides that, I agree that the strategy is the same.

Judah
01-14-2015, 11:06 AM
Well, if you have multiple cards that can go on another, all of different suits, an undo player would be foolish to at least look what was under each, something the nundo player can't.By the same token, the nundo player would be foolish not to invest thought in considering the relative likelihoods and expected values of each possibility, something the undo player has little need to do.

stereoman
03-11-2016, 08:02 PM
Just won my first game with zero undo's on expert, played 170 games so far haven't lost a single game but yeah four suits is very doable and the only way I play these days.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/stereomanuk/spidersolitaire_zpsidubfn1f.png~original

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