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View Full Version : Questions about Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End


ragerdude
05-27-2007, 03:00 PM
(Spoilers ahread. I forgot to put that in the thread title.)











































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ragerdude
05-27-2007, 03:04 PM
My main question is this: (1) Why did Will Turner carve out his heart?

From what I gather, long ago Calypso and Davy Jones loved each other. Then Davy was charged with the task of becoming the Captain of the Dutchman and ferrying souls to the next world, and thus could step on land only once every ten years. When he came back ten years later, Calypso wasn't there waiting for him. It wasn't in her "nature" to stay constant. He was very mad about that. In order to escape the pain, he cut out his heart so that he wouldn't feel any emotions, either good or bad.

[[Tia Dalma says, in Dead Man's Chest: "See, it was a woman, as changing, and harsh, and untamable as the sea. Him never stopped loving her. But the pain it cause 'im was too much to live wid,.but not enough to cause him to die. . . . It was not wort' feeling what small fleeting joy life brings, and so, he carved out him heart, lock it away in a chest, and hide de chest from de world. De keys, he keep wid him at all times." ]]

Then he abandoned the task of ferrying souls, pirated around the land of the living, and became octopussified because of it. He also told the original council of the brethren how to bind Calypso into an earthly form, which they did.

Later on, Will Turner stabbed the heart of Davy Jones, killing him. That made Will the new captain of the Dutchman. But why did he cut out his heart? Couldn't he have sailed with his heart intact, like Davy Jones did for the first ten years?

(2) If Davy supposedly couldn't feel emotions, then why do we see him with emotions? (Such as his tears, or his anger at the end of Dead Man's Chest when he opens his chest and finds the heart missing.)

(3) At the end, why did Lord Beckett not resist when his ship was attacked? He said something about it being "good business."

(4) Why did Ragetti have one of the pieces of eight (his eye) when he wasn't a pirate lord?

(5) Was anyone frustrated with the fact that Jack didn't end up with the Pearl at the end?

elfkin477
05-27-2007, 05:01 PM
1. I have no idea. This occured to me as well, and the friend I saw it with yesterday e-mailed me this morning with this very question. Because it made a nice scene when he told Elizabeth she's always held his heart? I've got nothing.

2. I don't recall a mention that he couldn't feel emotion, just that he didn't feel love.

3. He was stunned that it all went wrong (being as his tact was "good business" it was supposed to have worked without a hitch), and knew he was doomed. How effective would resisting be if you were trapped between two ships firing on you? It would have been futile and he knew it.

4. Barbosa mentions that Ragetti had been "keeping it safe" for him. I take it that Barbosa had borrowed it from him originally when it came time to put in a token to trap Calypso.

5. No.

Capatalist Lion Tamer
05-27-2007, 05:28 PM
How effective would resisting be if you were trapped between two ships firing on you? It would have been futile and he knew it.


Very effective, I think. That was a ship of the line, and significantly larger than the other two. It would probably have carried enough men to work both sides. I believe Jack Aubrey employs a similar strategy in one of the O'Brian books, but I can't remember.

Someone who knows more about such things will probably be around shortly to correct me, as I'm just working from a fuzzy memory here.

Capatalist Lion Tamer
05-27-2007, 05:30 PM
Later on, Will Turner stabbed the heart of Davy Jones, killing him.

I thought Jack Sparrow did that. I must've had more beer at the movie than I thought.

The Dumbest Guy in the Room
05-27-2007, 05:54 PM
Sparrow put the sword in Turner's hand, and possibly helped him to stab the heart

Jodi
05-27-2007, 06:51 PM
My main question is this: (1) Why did Will Turner carve out his heart? But why did he cut out his heart? Couldn't he have sailed with his heart intact, like Davy Jones did for the first ten years?

My guess is that by taking the heart out and putting it in the chest, Will keeps it safe. (Safer.) If whoever is the "Davy" keeps his heart in the chest, instead of in his chest, then he can't be killed (as easily).

(2) If Davy supposedly couldn't feel emotions, then why do we see him with emotions? (Such as his tears, or his anger at the end of Dead Man's Chest when he opens his chest and finds the heart missing.)

I don't remember the part about Davy not being able to feel emotion.

(3) At the end, why did Lord Beckett not resist when his ship was attacked? He said something about it being "good business."

This was a flaw for me too. He had been such a diabolical bastard, then he just freezes.

(4) Why did Ragetti have one of the pieces of eight (his eye) when he wasn't a pirate lord?

He was the keeper of Barbarosa's Piece of Eight. The "Pieces of Eight" were just whatever the pirates had in their pockets at the time. Barbarossa had Ragetti's eye in his pocket, so it became his P8.

(5) Was anyone frustrated with the fact that Jack didn't end up with the Pearl at the end?

Nah. I thought it was a strength of the movie that it didin't tie everything up with a neat ribbon. It was completely in keeping with Barbarosa's character to take the Pearl back.

How effective would resisting be if you were trapped between two ships firing on you? It would have been futile and he knew it.

Futile, maybe, but they still would have done something. Each of those guns is manned by a gun crew and the gun crew would have shot their guns off. The naval battles were completely impossible and I was privately being a pendantic pain in the ass about it, but then I realizes: It's the pirates versus the undead fish people -- let it go. :)

Lumpy
05-27-2007, 08:42 PM
(5) Was anyone frustrated with the fact that Jack didn't end up with the Pearl at the end?They left it open enough to squeeze out one more PotC movie if the box office warrants it; but if not, that's as appropriate an ending as any: despite a few adventures, Sparrow is essentially a failure, and he's back to sailing a dinghy like we first saw him. Sparrow should have become the next captain of the Flying Dutchman: the chance to avoid death, or worse responsibility, and to sail the seas for eternity would have suited him to a T.

I found the ending bittersweet. Elizabeth is left all but a widow, raising a practically fatherless son. She'll see Will maybe four or five more days in the rest of her life. The ultimate sea wife I suppose.

chorpler
05-27-2007, 09:08 PM
My main question is this: (1) Why did Will Turner carve out his heart?

From what I gather, long ago Calypso and Davy Jones loved each other. Then Davy was charged with the task of becoming the Captain of the Dutchman and ferrying souls to the next world, and thus could step on land only once every ten years. When he came back ten years later, Calypso wasn't there waiting for him. It wasn't in her "nature" to stay constant. He was very mad about that. In order to escape the pain, he cut out his heart so that he wouldn't feel any emotions, either good or bad.

I was confused about that whole thing too -- what precisely happened to piss Davy Jones off so much that he went nuts. Last night I rewatched Dead Man's Chest, to see if it answered any questions; at one point Jack essentially says that he and Calypso had sex once. ("I thought I knew you!" "Not as well as I hoped." or something like that; it sounded like innuendo to me, at least.) And Davy Jones seemed to be especially ticked off at Jack Sparrow. Maybe he found out that Jack was getting it on with his babycakes while she was supposed to be waiting for him on his one day of vacation.

Eh, maybe not. Just a fleeting thought.


(3) At the end, why did Lord Beckett not resist when his ship was attacked? He said something about it being "good business."

I asked my wife that -- the Endeavour had a CRAPLOAD of canons pointing in both directions, and could have caused serious damage to both ships. Why didn't he fight back? And why did the fleet turn tail and run after one lousy flagship was destroyed?

She said that Beckett (and the other ship captains) realized that the Flying Dutchman was no longer under their control, and they knew it was hopeless to fight against an immortal and probably indestructable ship if they didn't have it under control. Thus, Beckett's mind snapped and he just stood there frozen. And the other captains realized they should get the heck out of there before the Dutchman came after them too.

simster
05-27-2007, 11:10 PM
I think the original intent (Jack's) was to take Davy Jone's place, but with Will mortally wounded, gave that chance so that Will and Elizabeth had atleast a fleeting chance.

As for Davey and Calypso - I took it that she broke his heart so much that he couldn't stand the pain of it and carved it out so as not to feel it... Will and Elizabeth's play at that (her actually being there at the 10th anniversery) was to prove that a woman could be trusted with your heart.

Captain Jack was a failure as a pirate, because he was always willing to be 'human' and not just a 'pirate', but in the end, he still gets what he wanted - a ship and an adventure, and more importantly, the freedom of the sea.

chorpler
05-27-2007, 11:52 PM
I think the original intent (Jack's) was to take Davy Jone's place, but with Will mortally wounded, gave that chance so that Will and Elizabeth had atleast a fleeting chance.

That's definitely true. Jack really wanted to be that immortal Flying Dutchman captain, but he made Will do the heart-stabbing instead in order to save his life ... er ... to keep him from dying ... er ... well, you know what I mean. ;)

Captain Jack was a failure as a pirate, because he was always willing to be 'human' and not just a 'pirate', but in the end, he still gets what he wanted - a ship and an adventure, and more importantly, the freedom of the sea.

That prompted me to ask my wife another question. Clearly, Barbosa and his crew had no problem slaughtering hundreds or thousands of people in their mad quest to retrieve all their cursed Aztec gold pieces so they could remove the curse (as the prisoner said to Jack when the Black Pearl was attacking Port Royal early on in the first movie -- "They've been attacking settlements for nearly 10 years. Never leave any survivors!"), and clearly Jack was a much nicer guy than Barbosa, which is what kept leading to his downfall. So what did Jack's crew do for income while HE was captain? Obviously he has no problem stealing stuff from people, but did they do the usual pirate thing and kill people too?

Also, why did Jack have to make a deal with Davy Jones in the first place, to raise the Black Pearl from the depths and be her captain for 13 years? What happened that required him to make a deal like that?



In any case, I'm looking forward to the fourth movie if they decide to make it. The Fountain of Youth in the PotC universe should prove quite interesting.

iamthewalrus(:3=
05-28-2007, 12:55 AM
But why did he cut out his heart? Couldn't he have sailed with his heart intact, like Davy Jones did for the first ten years?I understood this as that Dutchman's captain is essentially invulnerable, except for his heart. Since Will was dying, cutting his heart out would "heal" him.

Eyebrows 0f Doom
05-28-2007, 01:01 AM
I thought Will had been fatally stabbed by Davy Jones and was going to die, so the only way to keep him around was to cut out his heart and have him become the new captain of the Dutchman. Didn't they say earlier in the film that whoever destroyed the heart of Davy Jones had to replace it with his own? (Also Will didn't cut out his own heart. Someone else did. Wasn't he basically unconcious at that point?)

Tracy Lord
05-28-2007, 02:44 AM
That prompted me to ask my wife another question. Clearly, Barbosa and his crew had no problem slaughtering hundreds or thousands of people in their mad quest to retrieve all their cursed Aztec gold pieces so they could remove the curse (as the prisoner said to Jack when the Black Pearl was attacking Port Royal early on in the first movie -- "They've been attacking settlements for nearly 10 years. Never leave any survivors!"), and clearly Jack was a much nicer guy than Barbosa, which is what kept leading to his downfall. So what did Jack's crew do for income while HE was captain? Obviously he has no problem stealing stuff from people, but did they do the usual pirate thing and kill people too?

In the first one, didn't he reportedly sack Port Nassau without firing a single shot? And he's excellent at talking people into things. I think Jack is a quite effective bloodless pirate. Notice how his first impulse is "run," followed closely by "pilfer" and then "persuade" and finally if all other options have been exhausted, go on the defense. He doesn't strike me as aggressive or violent at all, except in self-defense (or maybe defense of treasure or the Pearl).

The Dumbest Guy in the Room
05-28-2007, 04:57 AM
What was the significance of the song? Barbossa clearly wanted to set up a Pirate meeting before the song was sung. None of the pirate lords seemed to take 'the song has been sung' as any reason why the meeting should take place.

Why was the pirate boy, (presumably brevetted to Captain in a similar way to Elizabeth), using a Piece of Eight as a Piece of Eight to start the song, and if Pieces of Eight weren't really Pieces of Eight how had Beckett managed to gather a selection of 'special' Pieces of Eight?

Martini Enfield
05-28-2007, 05:13 AM
I wanted the East India Company to win, frankly.

And I liked Norrington. He reminded me of Rimmer, but not quite as smug. Hopefully they'll find a way of getting him back for a fourth movie (if there is one, that is).

Lumpy
05-28-2007, 10:00 AM
What the hell was the East India Company doing operating in the Caribbean instead of, well, the East Indies?

Martini Enfield
05-28-2007, 10:08 AM
What the hell was the East India Company doing operating in the Caribbean instead of, well, the East Indies?

To be fair, the East India Company historically had a lot of fingers in a lot of pies, especially when it came to maritime trade and so on.

GraceTX
05-28-2007, 03:32 PM
I found the ending bittersweet. Elizabeth is left all but a widow, raising a practically fatherless son. She'll see Will maybe four or five more days in the rest of her life. The ultimate sea wife I suppose.

Huh? Did I miss something? Elizabeth had a son?

chorpler
05-28-2007, 03:41 PM
Yeah, it was the final scene after the credits rolled. She and her 9-year-old son (who appeared to be the same actor who played the boy who got hung at the beginning) went out to watch the green flash and see Will and the Flying Dutchman reappear and sail in to meet them.

kingpengvin
05-28-2007, 04:18 PM
Not that Bittersweet.... all that fountain of youth talk at the end will likely explain why in Pirates 4 (Yee gawd forbid) the entire cast can come back and not look a decade older.

This was a sloppy convoluted story... which is odd because there really wasn't much of a plot. It contradicted itself so I don't think there are any real answers to the questions raised aside from "Sloppy Writing" Watch..

1) Sloppy Writing
2) Sloppy Writing
3) Sloppy writing to cover for a set piece. It looked good but it made no sense.
4) Yes... It means they are setting up for another.
or
No... because I can pretend it is a time travel story and Jack's dinghy ends up in the bveginning of the first movie.

ragerdude
05-28-2007, 05:01 PM
I just saw it again.

(1) Right before Davy stabs Will, Will stabs Davy. Davy says something like "I can't be killed because I don't have a heart." The only way that Davy can be killed is if someone stabs his heart. So my theory is that Will wouldn't have had to carve out his heart except, since he got stabbed, he needed to become immortal right away. Much the same as what iamthewalrus(:3= said.

(2) I haven't figured that one out.

(3) This one either. According to the movie, it's good business to join the winning side rather than the losing side. Maybe this was his way of "joining" the winning side. However, if he would have fired all those guns, and called in additional vessels (which he easily could have done), he had a real chance of winning. The Pearl had already been half blown up by the Dutchman.

(4) As I watched it again, it definitely was clear that Barbossa had given the eye to Ragetti for safe-keeping.

I don't think that "Captain Jack was a failure as a pirate." In fact, he is without doubt "the best pirate I have ever seen."

Barbossa clearly wanted to set up a Pirate meeting before the song was sung.

That's the point. The movie states that Barbossa was the one who called for the meeting, and then that got the ball rolling with the song everywhere.

gatorman
05-28-2007, 05:36 PM
I found the "pirate lords" meeting kind of amusing... A Japanese pirate??! An African pirate ?? A turban-wearing-I'm-assuming-he-is-Indian pirate??!

LoL I sorta of expected at that point an Aztec pirate to pop up...

Monstre
05-28-2007, 06:49 PM
That's definitely true. Jack really wanted to be that immortal Flying Dutchman captain, but he made Will do the heart-stabbing instead in order to save his life ... er ... to keep him from dying ... er ... well, you know what I mean. ;)
Just saw this today. And my read on that scene is that Jack thought he really wanted to become the Flying Dutchman captain, but when the moment of truth arrived, he hesitated -- he wasn't really sure. I think perhaps whoever it was who told him that he would have the duty of carrying the souls to the afterlife, that he wouldn't be totally free, maybe that made him unsure.

Clearly he hesitated. Because he had the shard of the sword poised over the heart before Davy Jones stabbed Will. He had Will on the ground, at his mercy, yes. Then Jack piped up, and Davy Jones spun around (ignoring Will for the moment) -- and we see Jack with the shard poised over the heart. If Jack truly wanted the job, 100% undecided for sure, no doubts in his mind... he would have already stabbed the thing. He hesitated because he wasn't sure. And that gave Jones the time to stab Will.

(And at that point, of course, Jack realized that having Will take Jones' place was the only way to "save" him).

simster
05-28-2007, 10:52 PM
Another question....

When we find that Elizabehts's dad had been killed... didn't he say that he stabbed the heart?

chorpler
05-29-2007, 12:12 AM
Just saw this today. And my read on that scene is that Jack thought he really wanted to become the Flying Dutchman captain, but when the moment of truth arrived, he hesitated -- he wasn't really sure. I think perhaps whoever it was who told him that he would have the duty of carrying the souls to the afterlife, that he wouldn't be totally free, maybe that made him unsure.

Clearly he hesitated. Because he had the shard of the sword poised over the heart before Davy Jones stabbed Will. He had Will on the ground, at his mercy, yes. Then Jack piped up, and Davy Jones spun around (ignoring Will for the moment) -- and we see Jack with the shard poised over the heart. If Jack truly wanted the job, 100% undecided for sure, no doubts in his mind... he would have already stabbed the thing. He hesitated because he wasn't sure. And that gave Jones the time to stab Will.

(And at that point, of course, Jack realized that having Will take Jones' place was the only way to "save" him).

Wow, I read that completely differently. I read that as Jack savoring the moment of victory over Davy Jones, not hesitating at the prospect of becoming the Dutchman's captain. He's finally got this guy's heart in his hands and he wants to see him squirm -- really rub it in.

Davy Jones (to Will): "Do you fear death?"
Jack, from behind: "DO YOU?"

And, alas, his moment of gloating cost him his chance, because it turned out Davy Jones didn't just squirm.

chorpler
05-29-2007, 12:14 AM
Another question....

When we find that Elizabehts's dad had been killed... didn't he say that he stabbed the heart?

That part confused me too. After talking it over with my wife and the other friends who were at the movie, I think I understand better. I think he was killed because he'd been asking questions about it, and had found out that if you stab the heart, you have to take the place of the captain, and your heart goes in the box. Beckett wasn't happy about him knowing that, so he had him dispatched.

But that part was confusing, so I might have it wrong.

ArizonaTeach
05-29-2007, 12:46 AM
Sparrow should have become the next captain of the Flying Dutchman: the chance to avoid death, or worse responsibility, and to sail the seas for eternity would have suited him to a T.Oh, I disagree with this. To be captain of the Dutchman is to have even more responsibility - Turner even told Jack, when he was dumping the bodies off the ship, that if you don't do the job (ferrying the dead), you turn into the fish creatures. Davy wasn't doing his job (we saw all those people floating in the ocean), and that's why he and his crew mutated - part of Calypso's curse, I imagine.

And yes, to answer another question, it wasn't Will who cut his heart out, it was his father. I'm not sure how the curse changed into what it was during the movie, but whoever stabbed Davy Jones's heart had to replace the heart with his own. Yes, the timeline doesn't quite scan, unless the heart and chest refered to in the second movie was both literal and figurative (his heart had been removed and placed in the Dead Man's Chest, and when Calypso didn't show up for the reunion, he figuratively cut his heart out). That's all I got.

Rich Mann
05-29-2007, 01:53 AM
<snip>Jack was a much nicer guy than Barbosa, which is what kept leading to his downfall. So what did Jack's crew do for income while HE was captain? Obviously he has no problem stealing stuff from people, but did they do the usual pirate thing and kill people too?<snip>
Real pirates usually avoided killing as much as possible. Success in taking a ship often relied on the crew surrendering to avoid getting killed in a prolonged firefight. The pirate captains knew that if they slaughtered these crews then word would eventually get around and nobody would surrender anymore. Their life would get harder, more dangerous, and less profitable. Leaving crews alive and releasing them meant a whole lot of mouths telling fellow sailors that they can safely surrender and only lose their cargo if it looks likely that they will lose in a fight.

si_blakely
05-29-2007, 05:18 AM
Real pirates usually avoided killing as much as possible. Success in taking a ship often relied on the crew surrendering to avoid getting killed in a prolonged firefight. The pirate captains knew that if they slaughtered these crews then word would eventually get around and nobody would surrender anymore. Their life would get harder, more dangerous, and less profitable. Leaving crews alive and releasing them meant a whole lot of mouths telling fellow sailors that they can safely surrender and only lose their cargo if it looks likely that they will lose in a fight.The Dread Pirate Roberts leaves no survivors... if word gets out that a pirate has gone soft, it's nothing but work, work, work all the time.

;)

And yes - Will had no choice. The crew of the Flying Dutchman carved his heart out.

Si

Tikster
05-29-2007, 06:09 AM
What I don't get is why Elizabeth didn't join the crew on the flying dutchman to sail with Will for eternity..... Or what? Can anyone explain where my thinking fails?

And regarding the pirates from other countries - they have existed, although most of them weren't alive simultaneously.

-Tikster

Monstre
05-29-2007, 08:42 AM
Will and Elizabeth's play at that (her actually being there at the 10th anniversery) was to prove that a woman could be trusted with your heart.
Ah, so this set of movies would go under the genre of Escapist Fantasy. I just realized.

Capatalist Lion Tamer
05-29-2007, 08:51 AM
Real pirates usually avoided killing as much as possible. Success in taking a ship often relied on the crew surrendering to avoid getting killed in a prolonged firefight. The pirate captains knew that if they slaughtered these crews then word would eventually get around and nobody would surrender anymore. Their life would get harder, more dangerous, and less profitable. Leaving crews alive and releasing them meant a whole lot of mouths telling fellow sailors that they can safely surrender and only lose their cargo if it looks likely that they will lose in a fight.

This makes sense, but I'd love to see a cite. I was under the impression that most pirates didn't give a damn if their prey surrendered or not. They have, throughout history, often used extremely fast boarding craft for the purposes of gaining access to ships, after which they fight as any boarding party would.

xnylder
05-29-2007, 10:04 AM
What I don't get is why Elizabeth didn't join the crew on the flying dutchman to sail with Will for eternity..... Or what? Can anyone explain where my thinking fails?

I second your confusion. I realize it would be dark for a Disney tale (though granted, this film was already exceedingly dark for Disney), but I rather expected Elizabeth to stab herself on the deck of the ship. In this way, she'd have died at sea, making her soul forfeit to the new Davy Jones. That would let her sail with the Dutchman and her captain forever. As it stands, the only logical (and I use that term loosely) thing for her to do is to make damn well sure she dies on a ship. It's like having the Grim Reaper as a husband, except he's got a limited jurisdiction.

Scupper
05-29-2007, 11:13 AM
Did anyone, anywhere, understand what Tia Dalma/Calypso said in answer to Barbossa right before she turned into crabs?

NailBunny
05-29-2007, 11:34 AM
My main question is this: (1) Why did Will Turner carve out his heart?

He didn't - the crew did. Per creepy-lantern-holding-barnacle-guy in Dead Man's Chest: "The Dutchman needs a living heart". Once Jack made him stab the heart, Will's had to take it's place.

(2) If Davy supposedly couldn't feel emotions, then why do we see him with emotions? (Such as his tears, or his anger at the end of Dead Man's Chest when he opens his chest and finds the heart missing.)

I also don't remember hearing that Davy Jones could not feel emotions - they seem to be more pronounced the closer he is in proximity to the heart, though.

(3) At the end, why did Lord Beckett not resist when his ship was attacked? He said something about it being "good business."

Beckett was a great big pussy who totally froze in battle. End of story.

(4) Why did Ragetti have one of the pieces of eight (his eye) when he wasn't a pirate lord?

He was keeping it for Barbossa. At the end you can see Ragetti is carving himself a new eye.

(5) Was anyone frustrated with the fact that Jack didn't end up with the Pearl at the end?

I was a bit annoyed that Jack's character arc seems to have brought him to exactly the same place he was the first time we met him, but it makes sense. I was more frustrated that he didn't sail off with Elizabeth. So, he's sailing to go keep her company while Will's off ferrying souls to the land of the dead for the next decade. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

Kythereia
05-29-2007, 12:02 PM
We were shuffled out of the theatre at the end of the movie and I didn't get to see the scene after the credits; I'm going off to look for it at YouTube.

My question: did anybody see how many guns the Endeavour had? The Black Pearl has 32 cannons and the Flying Dutchman had 48 cannons (and 2 triple cannons) which brings their total to 82 cannons--against what appears to be maybe 30-40 cannons on the Endeavour. Beckett was completely screwed.

The plot for Pirates 4: Barbossa and his crew pursue Jack, Jack picks up Will's son somehow, they reunite with the Flying Dutchman...?

ragerdude
05-29-2007, 12:28 PM
Did anyone, anywhere, understand what Tia Dalma/Calypso said in answer to Barbossa right before she turned into crabs?

No, but in the novel, she howls "FOOL!" And that's it.

akira5822
05-29-2007, 12:28 PM
How come everyone else was spared the curse of the aztec gold when it was returned from the first movie gold except for Jack the undead monkey?

Scuba_Ben
05-29-2007, 12:31 PM
My question: did anybody see how many guns the Endeavour had? The Black Pearl has 32 cannons and the Flying Dutchman had 48 cannons (and 2 triple cannons) which brings their total to 82 cannons--against what appears to be maybe 30-40 cannons on the Endeavour. Beckett was completely screwed.I think the Endeavour had three gun decks, possibly four. I have no doubt that with Admiral Norrington in command, the frigate would have sunk both the Black Pearl and Flying Dutchman.

ragerdude
05-29-2007, 12:33 PM
How come everyone else was spared the curse of the aztec from the first movie gold except for Jack the undead monkey?

In the final scene of the first movie, after the credits, right after all is done and everyone had left the island, Jack the monkey takes a medallion out of the chest and turns into an undead monkey.

I don't think we ever find out what happened to that medallion.

The Dumbest Guy in the Room
05-29-2007, 12:33 PM
How come everyone else was spared the curse of the aztec gold when it was returned from the first movie gold except for Jack the undead monkey?

After the credits in PotC 1 the monkey steals another piece.

well he's back
05-29-2007, 02:47 PM
Will took Davy Jones place to complete his story arc - that is his transformation from dork to cool guy. Yes, Orlando finally looked cool in his pirate outfit once the character's heart was cut out.

Elizabeth couldn't sail on the boat with Will since she was still alive, and he was still too nice a guy to kill her to bring her on board.

Captain Jack had to live another day to have further adventures, doncha know.

garygnu
05-29-2007, 02:59 PM
I was under the impression that Flying Dutchman crewmembers hadn't died. Instead, they were about to die and chose servitude to delay death.

kurilla
05-29-2007, 03:10 PM
I found the ending bittersweet. Elizabeth is left all but a widow, raising a practically fatherless son. She'll see Will maybe four or five more days in the rest of her life. The ultimate sea wife I suppose.

Aside from her joining the crew of the Dutchman, there are OTHER ways around this, and it just makes no sense at all that they implied she'd only ever see him four or five more times.

Just a couple of quick examples:

(1) We saw Davy standing on the reef in a bucket of seawater. Bathtub, anyone?

(2) She could sail on the Pearl and rendezvous with the Dutchman periodically.

garygnu
05-29-2007, 03:15 PM
...it just makes no sense at all that they implied she'd only ever see him four or five more times.

Just a couple of quick examples:

(1) We saw Davy standing on the reef in a bucket of seawater. Bathtub, anyone?

(2) She could sail on the Pearl and rendezvous with the Dutchman periodically.
I agree. I can only hope that the fourth installment, Pirates of the Caribbean: The Search for More Money, will involve what happened in the ten years that passed during the credits.

Marley23
05-29-2007, 03:21 PM
(1) We saw Davy standing on the reef in a bucket of seawater. Bathtub, anyone?
He wouldn't be doing the ferrying-souls job if he was sitting around the house in a bathtub.

This is why I laughed so hard during the Brethren Court scene, when Jack responds to the Pirate King idea with "You're making that up!" I had been thinking that for the previous hour or so. ;)

garygnu
05-29-2007, 03:27 PM
Another question just popped into my head:
How in the hell did one "pirate lord" end up the first mate on another's ship?

Defective Detective
05-29-2007, 03:47 PM
That was a convoluted fucking movie. So many plot twists, changes, betrayals and updates, they may as well have foregone the plot entirely - didn't make a damn bit of difference, it was all they could do for an excuse for another silly, over-the-top, CGI, ridiculous, never-ending fight scene.

But I never tire of looking at Keira. Hell, I'd go for another three hours (that was one long fucking movie, kids.)

Defective Detective
05-29-2007, 04:01 PM
When did Elizabeth kill Jack, by the way? How?

Marley23
05-29-2007, 04:12 PM
When did Elizabeth kill Jack, by the way? How?
She chained him to the mast when the Kraken attacked at the end of the last movie. He broke free, but didn't have time to escape by then. Of course, he'd already come back to the ship and foregone escape... but I guess it was sort of true.

Like you said, the movie was very convoluted. They should have given us a few pages of notes to remind us of the machinations and twists from the last movie. I kept up with the important stuff, but I felt like they were asking people to remember a lot of stuff 10 months after the last one.

WOOKINPANUB
05-29-2007, 04:41 PM
Did anyone else catch what I think was a dig at Dubya, when at the Pirate Counsel, Johnny is walking aroung the table making his speech and he stands behind the Japanese pirate lady and rubs her shoulders while she cringes a la the Angela Merkel incident? I don't remember what he said, but I believe it was Dubya's words, as well.

jacquilynne
05-29-2007, 04:42 PM
Like you said, the movie was very convoluted. They should have given us a few pages of notes to remind us of the machinations and twists from the last movie. I kept up with the important stuff, but I felt like they were asking people to remember a lot of stuff 10 months after the last one.

I could have used notes to keep track of what happened 2 hours before by the end of the movie. It was entertaining and fun but I did find myself going 'WTF?' several times throughout.

kurilla
05-29-2007, 05:26 PM
He wouldn't be doing the ferrying-souls job if he was sitting around the house in a bathtub.



Well, not all day, every day, obviously. ;)

Unless being non-dead confers OTHER benefits a Disney movie couldn't mention.

Montgomery0
05-29-2007, 06:18 PM
He wouldn't be doing the ferrying-souls job if he was sitting around the house in a bathtub.

True, but having a face full of tentacles does have it's benefits...

Marley23
05-29-2007, 06:27 PM
True, but having a face full of tentacles does have it's benefits...
If you're into certain kinds of Japanese porn, I suppose, but I can't continue this line of inquiry because Ihavetogothrowupnow

ErinPuff
05-29-2007, 07:21 PM
Did anyone else catch what I think was a dig at Dubya, when at the Pirate Counsel, Johnny is walking aroung the table making his speech and he stands behind the Japanese pirate lady and rubs her shoulders while she cringes a la the Angela Merkel incident? I don't remember what he said, but I believe it was Dubya's words, as well.

I noticed that too (I don't remember what he said either).

Yllaria
05-29-2007, 07:42 PM
My son asked if Elizabeth would also live forever, because she's part of Will's curse. The idea being he can't meet her every ten years if she croaks after X number of meetings.

I hadn't considered it, and the movie did nothing to directly imply it. But it's a nice thought. Has anyone else been thinking it?

And since this is a thread about questions - did anyone else come out of the movie thinking: "Damn, that was a really big nose on that screen"!

simster
05-29-2007, 07:53 PM
That part confused me too. After talking it over with my wife and the other friends who were at the movie, I think I understand better. I think he was killed because he'd been asking questions about it, and had found out that if you stab the heart, you have to take the place of the captain, and your heart goes in the box. Beckett wasn't happy about him knowing that, so he had him dispatched.

But that part was confusing, so I might have it wrong.

Not so sure about that... in the last scene with her father alive, Lord Becket asks 'the other guy' if he (dad) knew about the heart "thing"... he was told "no" and Lord Becket siad "all the better then"... then the scene on the raft fully implied that it was he who stabbed the heart.

I'm willing to accept the other thought, but I hope some others chime in one way or the other... otherwise, perhaps the "curse of the heart" morped several times during the movie to what we ended up with.

Monstre
05-29-2007, 10:31 PM
When did Elizabeth kill Jack, by the way? How?
At the end of the second movie ("Dead Man's Chest"), after they'd stunned the kraken with the exploding netfull of barrels of gunpowder/rum/etc, they all decided to abandon ship. As the others were boarding one of the longboats, getting off of the Black Pearl, Elizabeth hangs back -- she kisses Jack (which Will briefly glimpses as he's lowering into the longboat), backing Jack up against something on the ship, and then snapping a manacle on his wrist. The kiss was a ploy to distract him and chain him to the ship. She said something like, "Sorry Jack... but it's after you. Not us. It's the only way."

So she didn't technically kill him, but she manacled him to the ship so that the rest of them could escape. Jack manages to free himself from the manacle just as the kraken is attacking the ship again. This time, he faces it head on and leaps into its maw with drawn sword. The others watch from the longboat in the distance as the kraken takes the Black Pearl down. And Elizabeth is clearly feeling some guilt.

Monstre
05-29-2007, 10:33 PM
Like you said, the movie was very convoluted. They should have given us a few pages of notes to remind us of the machinations and twists from the last movie. I kept up with the important stuff, but I felt like they were asking people to remember a lot of stuff 10 months after the last one.
Since it was a continuation of the story from PotC 2, I went back and re-watched "Dead Man's Chest" on Sunday night, before going and seeing "World's End" on Monday.

Worked nicely, refreshing my memory on the story so far.

Not so sure about that... in the last scene with her father alive, Lord Becket asks 'the other guy' if he (dad) knew about the heart "thing"... he was told "no" and Lord Becket siad "all the better then"... then the scene on the raft fully implied that it was he who stabbed the heart.

I'm willing to accept the other thought, but I hope some others chime in one way or the other... otherwise, perhaps the "curse of the heart" morped several times during the movie to what we ended up with.
I didn't get the impression from the scene with Dead Dad in the boat that he had stabbed the heart. What I remember is just that he was telling them what would happen if somebody did stab the heart. And that he was dead because in a previous scene Lord Cutter made a mention of how "the governor's usefulness is at an end" or something like that.

Monstre
05-29-2007, 10:38 PM
Yes, Orlando finally looked cool in his pirate outfit once the character's heart was cut out.
Come to think of it, he looked kind of like the Dread Pirate Roberts.

DeadlyAccurate
05-29-2007, 10:53 PM
(3) At the end, why did Lord Beckett not resist when his ship was attacked? He said something about it being "good business."

Beckett had never been challenged before. Every battle was pretty much a guaranteed victory for him, so when confronted with an actual threat, he didn't know what to do.

ETA: And Orlando Bloom was gorgeous this time around.

Diceman
05-29-2007, 11:54 PM
Calypso's deal really does suck, doesn't it? One day of freedom as a reward for ten years of work? And as others have mentioned, what happens after Elizabeth dies? It would be especially sad if she dies on land, and Will never gets to see her again. I actually felt sorry for Davy Jones when we found out that he did his job for ten years, just like he was supposed to, only to find that his lover wasn't waiting for him. It's hard to think of anything that would hurt worse.


Here's a thought: in the original legends, the captain of the Flying Dutchman committed blasphemy against God, and was cursed to sail a ghost ship forever as punishment. Maybe this is what happened to Davy Jones. Remember the scene in Dead Man's Chest where Davy Jones sees a sailor praying, and takes a special dislike to that guy? I've always thought that this might be an example of the attitude that got him cursed in the first place. It's possible that after Davy Jones was cursed, Calypso stepped in and offered him a chance to do something useful. But Calypso was unfaithful, and broke Davy's heart, so Davy cut his heart out and abandoned his job.

Very effective, I think. That was a ship of the line, and significantly larger than the other two. It would probably have carried enough men to work both sides. I believe Jack Aubrey employs a similar strategy in one of the O'Brian books, but I can't remember.

Lord Beckett's ship (the Endeavor?) could probably have doled out some serious punishment, but Beckett choked under pressure. Actually, a better strategy for the pirates would have been for the Black Pearl and the Flying Dutchman to sail in a Y-pattern, heading toward the Endeavor and then turning away to either side. This would allow them to fire their cannons at Beckett before Beckett could point his cannons at either of their ships. Lord Beckett really would have been screwed then, outmaneuvered and stuck without any good options.

Lastly, I'm intrigued by Captain Bartholomew, Jack's father. I take it he's immortal? Perhaps he found the Fountain of Youth. I noticed that Jack did not seek him out upon arriving at Shipwreck Cove, and Jack was definitely scared of him. There doesn't seem to be much love between them. Jack probably hasn't seem his dad in years, and when they finally meet again they talk for all of a minute. I'd love to know more about Captain Bartholomew.

ouryL
05-30-2007, 12:41 AM
Davy Jones broke his covenant because Calypso could be faithful to him while he spent his ten years are captain of the Flying Dutchman. Will on the otherhand was lucky that his love could thus the curse was broken. Had she gone on the ship, she would have been dead. It's unknown whether her child would have survived this ordeal.

Lumpy
05-30-2007, 01:13 AM
I think the Endeavour had three gun decks, possibly four. I have no doubt that with Admiral Norrington in command, the frigate would have sunk both the Black Pearl and Flying Dutchman.Frigate?? I'm not an expert on ships but I took it be a full-fledged Man O' War. And since they had their guns run out i.e. presumably loaded and ready, if I'd been the second in command, I would have at least yelled out "All guns-fire at will!"

RandMcnally
05-30-2007, 01:31 AM
Frigate?? I'm not an expert on ships but I took it be a full-fledged Man O' War. And since they had their guns run out i.e. presumably loaded and ready, if I'd been the second in command, I would have at least yelled out "All guns-fire at will!"


That's what gets me. I figured any decent second in command would have taken over the moment the head guy wouldn't make a decision.

Remember kids, it's better to chose the wrong choice than to be indecisive.

well he's back
05-30-2007, 10:03 AM
Did anyone else think the tone was too dark? I mean, hanging a little boy, come on. Or was that necessary to show what a jerk Beckett was?
And if there was any political commentary it certainly was at the beginning when Beckett is doing away with all civil rights…

The only good thing about a sequel involving the Fountain of Youth would be filming in Florida, hopefully involving the old Fort at St. Augustine.

Marley23
05-30-2007, 10:25 AM
Come to think of it, he looked kind of like the Dread Pirate Roberts.
During the movie, I remember thinking a young Cary Elwes would have made a much better Will.

Atrael
05-30-2007, 11:46 AM
Just a slight quibble. I'm not sure that Beckett and the other Pirate lords were the same ones that originally bound Calipso. So I'm not sure the wooden eye was his in the first place. More likely it was passed down from pirate lord to whomever that person chose as his/her successor. I just didn't get the feel that these were the same lords that had bound her originally. Anyone remember anything that definitely answers that?

Ludovic
05-30-2007, 11:50 AM
I would have at least yelled out "All guns-fire at will!"Yeah, but what about Davey Jones and Jack?


:::::d+r::::::

Diceman
05-30-2007, 11:55 AM
Just a slight quibble. I'm not sure that Beckett and the other Pirate lords were the same ones that originally bound Calipso. So I'm not sure the wooden eye was his in the first place. More likely it was passed down from pirate lord to whomever that person chose as his/her successor. I just didn't get the feel that these were the same lords that had bound her originally. Anyone remember anything that definitely answers that?
I think Barbossa said, "There hasn't been a gathering like this in our lifetimes." So no, they aren't the same pirates who originally bound Calypso. Although Captain Bartholomew, keeper of the Pirate Codex and Jack's dad, might be immortal.

Monstre
05-30-2007, 12:00 PM
Yeah, but what about Davey Jones and Jack?


:::::d+r::::::
Blast you, I was just about to post a similar joke meself!

Bloody pirate!

Morelin
05-30-2007, 12:06 PM
Calypso's deal really does suck, doesn't it? One day of freedom as a reward for ten years of work? And as others have mentioned, what happens after Elizabeth dies? It would be especially sad if she dies on land, and Will never gets to see her again. I actually felt sorry for Davy Jones when we found out that he did his job for ten years, just like he was supposed to, only to find that his lover wasn't waiting for him. It's hard to think of anything that would hurt worse.




There's a rumor floating around about a deleted scene. Calypso explains that if the Dutchman does his job for 10 years and his love remains true and is there for him, he can be free. The scene after the credits showing the glint of green(a soul being returned) in the sunset seems to agree with that.

NailBunny
05-30-2007, 12:23 PM
Although Captain Bartholomew, keeper of the Pirate Codex and Jack's dad, might be immortal.

Pssst - that'd be Captain Teague.

simster
05-30-2007, 12:24 PM
Since it was a continuation of the story from PotC 2, I went back and re-watched "Dead Man's Chest" on Sunday night, before going and seeing "World's End" on Monday.

Worked nicely, refreshing my memory on the story so far.


I didn't get the impression from the scene with Dead Dad in the boat that he had stabbed the heart. What I remember is just that he was telling them what would happen if somebody did stab the heart. And that he was dead because in a previous scene Lord Cutter made a mention of how "the governor's usefulness is at an end" or something like that.

Rigth... he questioned wether or not he knew the legend and said that his usefullness was at an end... implying that he was going to use the legend against him, then the scene later again implied that he had stabbed the heart - his attitude seemed to be of one tricked into something, not one that died trying to do something 'noble'.

doubt I'll see it again in the theater, but can't wait for the DVD.

xnylder
05-30-2007, 12:37 PM
There's a rumor floating around about a deleted scene. Calypso explains that if the Dutchman does his job for 10 years and his love remains true and is there for him, he can be free. The scene after the credits showing the glint of green(a soul being returned) in the sunset seems to agree with that.

This would make a heck of a lot of sense. If I were Queen of the World, and this rumor were not true, I would call back the actress who played Calypso to have the scene filmed and added to the DVD.

Achren
05-30-2007, 01:44 PM
There's a rumor floating around about a deleted scene. Calypso explains that if the Dutchman does his job for 10 years and his love remains true and is there for him, he can be free. The scene after the credits showing the glint of green(a soul being returned) in the sunset seems to agree with that.And it would add to the fuel of Davy Jones' anger at Calypso.

Chronos
05-30-2007, 01:57 PM
More on Elizabeth, why is she apparently spending all her time on land, anyway? She's the King of the Pirate Lords... Why isn't she on her ship with her crew? She clearly enjoys the whole pirate lifestyle, and her love is now a personification of the Sea. What appeal does land hold for her?

And someone asked what one pirate lord was doing on the crew of another. I was wondering that, too, and my best guess is that Barbosa only inherited the Pirate Lord title after the mutiny, some time while he was wandering the seas cursed.

si_blakely
05-30-2007, 03:02 PM
Lastly, I'm intrigued by Captain Bartholomew, Jack's father. I take it he's immortal? Perhaps he found the Fountain of Youth. I noticed that Jack did not seek him out upon arriving at Shipwreck Cove, and Jack was definitely scared of him. There doesn't seem to be much love between them. Jack probably hasn't seem his dad in years, and when they finally meet again they talk for all of a minute. I'd love to know more about Captain Bartholomew.Yeah - and I want to know where he learned to play a guitar like that - pretty awesome for an old pirate. He must have struck a deal with the devil somewhere. He seemed pretty indestructible, though. Not so sure about Jacks mum, though.

Si

si_blakely
05-30-2007, 03:08 PM
There's a rumor floating around about a deleted scene. Calypso explains that if the Dutchman does his job for 10 years and his love remains true and is there for him, he can be free. The scene after the credits showing the glint of green(a soul being returned) in the sunset seems to agree with that.If that scene had been included in the movie, the post-credits scene would indicate that there may not be another sequel - the Will/Elizabeth/Flying Dutchman arc would be concluded with their reunion. Of course, both Jack and Barbosa still want to live forever.

Si

FlightlessBird
05-30-2007, 03:21 PM
I have a question.
In the scene with Davey Jones and Calypso in the brig. She magically turns him human for a short time. and after he turns back, he has his claw stuck in the bars. So what does he do? He walks forward and phases through the bars.
Wha wha what?!

He can't pull his claw out, but he can phase his whole body through?
What did I miss in that scene?

Push You Down
05-30-2007, 03:22 PM
More on Elizabeth, why is she apparently spending all her time on land, anyway? She's the King of the Pirate Lords... Why isn't she on her ship with her crew? She clearly enjoys the whole pirate lifestyle, and her love is now a personification of the Sea. What appeal does land hold for her?

And someone asked what one pirate lord was doing on the crew of another. I was wondering that, too, and my best guess is that Barbosa only inherited the Pirate Lord title after the mutiny, some time while he was wandering the seas cursed.

What's to imply that she spends all her time on land? Just because she's on land when Will comes back doesn't mean she lives there.

Jodi
05-30-2007, 03:34 PM
I have a question.
In the scene with Davey Jones and Calypso in the brig. She magically turns him human for a short time. and after he turns back, he has his claw stuck in the bars. So what does he do? He walks forward and phases through the bars.
Wha wha what?!

He can't pull his claw out, but he can phase his whole body through?
What did I miss in that scene?

I theorize he has two states -- physical and "ghost," for lack of a better term. He has to have some physical iteration (a way to interact with people and things) or he wouldn't be able to do things like stab people. And he has to have a ghost iteration for stuff like not dying and walking through bars.

When he grabbed Calypso by the neck, he did it with his physical state, in which he can't pull back through the bars. But then he switched to his ghost state and pushed through them.

Jodi
05-30-2007, 03:36 PM
That sounds completely lame and dweeby when I read it. Next stop, The Android's Dungeon & Baseball Card Shop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic_Book_Guy)!

Einmon
05-30-2007, 06:45 PM
Yeah - and I want to know where he learned to play a guitar like that - pretty awesome for an old pirate. He must have struck a deal with the devil somewhere.Sympathy for the devil can take you a long way, apparently.

The only good thing about a sequel involving the Fountain of Youth would be filming in Florida, hopefully involving the old Fort at St. Augustine.Well, from the maps shown the X seemed to be in the vague direction of Kissimmee, and we all know what's located there... It would all end up like in this video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=1zYF44yE3k4), where Johnny Depp gets to meet himself in animatronic form.

si_blakely
05-30-2007, 06:55 PM
Sympathy for the devil can take you a long way, apparently.I wonder if Jacks mother was a honky tonk woman.

Si

Shirley Ujest
06-03-2007, 08:55 AM
My friend and I went to see it last night and we gots confused over all the double dealings and weirdness.


But, what confused us the most was the Davy Jones / Calypso story line:

{I'm thinking out loud here.}

Davy Agreed to captain the flying dutchmen and ferry the departed souls for her because of his love for Calypso. In exchange he would get one day on land every ten years with her. When she didn't show up for his first day on land in ten years, he betrayed her and
told the pirate kings how to bind her to her human form. This was 20 years ago. and when she doesn't show(now 10 years ago), is when Davy Jones rage started turning turn him to a squid and his ship and men became all barancly. (right?)

This is where we got really confused.

Because the Pirate Lords have only had four meetings in a buttload of years, I'm guessing at least 50-100 years, as these Pirate Lords are not the originals. And Pirates don't tend to have a long life expectancy. So either Davy Jones has been a captain alot longer than we think or there is a hole in there somewhere.


I think I need some kind of time line done. My brain hurts.


Also, my girlfriend pointed out a possible plot hole during the Battle of the Flushing Bowl.

The Flying Dutchmen is, one would assume, would be impossible to sink because it is cursed (or immortal or charmed, take your pick.) Yeah, the crew could be permanently dispatched I suppose, but going up against a ship that can survive and travel underwater with its crew is something to consider before going into battle. And it seems to have an unlimited supply of cannonballs.

Push You Down
06-03-2007, 02:38 PM
Also, my girlfriend pointed out a possible plot hole during the Battle of the Flushing Bowl.

The Flying Dutchmen is, one would assume, would be impossible to sink because it is cursed (or immortal or charmed, take your pick.) Yeah, the crew could be permanently dispatched I suppose, but going up against a ship that can survive and travel underwater with its crew is something to consider before going into battle. And it seems to have an unlimited supply of cannonballs.


That's not a plot hole.

I understand your point but its not a plot hole. Its kind of like my problem with the Matrix movies- Why do they bother fighting the agents in the Matrix? They can't beat them.

Eltanin
06-03-2007, 03:44 PM
Frigate?? I'm not an expert on ships but I took it be a full-fledged Man O' War. And since they had their guns run out i.e. presumably loaded and ready, if I'd been the second in command, I would have at least yelled out "All guns-fire at will!"

"Man o' war" was just a generic name for a warship. In the British Royal Navy, ships with 20-60 guns were classified as frigates; ships with 64 or more guns were ships of the line. There was until today a "goofs" entry on the film's IMDB page (http://imdb.com/title/tt0449088/goofs) that claimed the Endeavour was a second rate ship of the line with 98 guns on its three decks (second rates having between 90-98 guns). I, however, thought there were more guns than this, although I didn't get a good chance to count them - there appeared to be at least 20 guns per deck per side, which would have given it at least 120.

Of course it seems beyond belief that Beckett's ship didn't fight back, but given that not a damn thing in that movie made any sense I'd say it was perfectly "logical."

Diceman
06-03-2007, 10:05 PM
Davy Agreed to captain the flying dutchmen and ferry the departed souls for her because of his love for Calypso. In exchange he would get one day on land every ten years with her. When she didn't show up for his first day on land in ten years, he betrayed her and
told the pirate kings how to bind her to her human form. This was 20 years ago. and when she doesn't show(now 10 years ago), is when Davy Jones rage started turning turn him to a squid and his ship and men became all barancly. (right?)

I don't remember them giving any timeline for how long ago Davy Jones and Calypso made their agreement. Based on the four meetings of the Pirate Lords, I was thinking that the first meeting occurred maybe a century ago, with the last meeting being at least 50 years ago. (It was before Barbosa's lifetime.) As for Davy Jones' transformation, it sounded to me like Jones turned into a monster physically because he had turned into one mentally, having abandoned his mission and having let his bitterness turn him into a cruel and merciless bastard.

BTW, I saw the beginning of Curse of the Black Pearl tonight, and I realized that the two redcoats who were guarding the chest on board the Flying Dutchman were the same two guys who were guarding the Dauntless when Jack first arrived at Port Royal.

Intravenus De Milo
06-03-2007, 11:10 PM
Okay: here's my question...

Since movie #2, there have been many hints dropped that Tia Dalma was Davy Jones' long lost love, and when the Calypso myth is presented in #3, it's sorta obvious who the earthly incarnation of her is going to be. However, when Elizabeth is taken (willingly) on board Sao Feng's ship, he mentions something about "her" (Calypso) being released at last, and while saying this he is talking to (and presumably about) Elizabeth. He then out of the blue becomes violently lustful for her, much like how Barbossa suddenly became for Tia Dalma on board the Black Pearl on approach to Shipwreck Cove. The Barbossa incident makes sense because, IIRC, it was mentioned at one point that Calypso can conceive overwhelming desires in men. However, the scene with Sao Feng would hint that there is some deistic presence in Elizabeth that she did not know about, and only those well-versed in pirate history and folklore (like one of the Pirate Lords) would recognize.

I half-expected some Da Vinci Code-style revelation to come, wherein it is explained that someone in Elizabeth's ancestry was born of Calypso, and that she thus inherited some of the goddess' power, but nothing is ever offered as explanation as to why Sao Feng said what he did *directed at Elizabeth* aboard his ship. It's obvious that there was something special about Elizabeth that made him say it to her; it would also partly explain why Jack votes for her at Shipwreck Cove later on, although Jack's motives and plans are usually too convoluted to explain as simply as that. If there is a part 4 in the works, this might be another plot tangent they would work on. Otherwise, it just looks like a red herring.

Chanteuse
06-04-2007, 01:22 AM
This trivia entry (http://moviemistakes.com/film6773/trivia) at Movie Mistakes confirms that the curse to captain the Flying Dutchman was not permanent if the conditions were met after ten years.

This would explain why Davy Jones so bitterly asked Calypso her why she hadn't been there for him.

I just saw the film last night, and while I agree that it was a convoluted thing, I still really enjoyed it!

chorpler
06-04-2007, 01:58 AM
Okay: here's my question...

Since movie #2, there have been many hints dropped that Tia Dalma was Davy Jones' long lost love, and when the Calypso myth is presented in #3, it's sorta obvious who the earthly incarnation of her is going to be. However, when Elizabeth is taken (willingly) on board Sao Feng's ship, he mentions something about "her" (Calypso) being released at last, and while saying this he is talking to (and presumably about) Elizabeth. He then out of the blue becomes violently lustful for her, much like how Barbossa suddenly became for Tia Dalma on board the Black Pearl on approach to Shipwreck Cove. The Barbossa incident makes sense because, IIRC, it was mentioned at one point that Calypso can conceive overwhelming desires in men. However, the scene with Sao Feng would hint that there is some deistic presence in Elizabeth that she did not know about, and only those well-versed in pirate history and folklore (like one of the Pirate Lords) would recognize.

I half-expected some Da Vinci Code-style revelation to come, wherein it is explained that someone in Elizabeth's ancestry was born of Calypso, and that she thus inherited some of the goddess' power, but nothing is ever offered as explanation as to why Sao Feng said what he did *directed at Elizabeth* aboard his ship. It's obvious that there was something special about Elizabeth that made him say it to her; it would also partly explain why Jack votes for her at Shipwreck Cove later on, although Jack's motives and plans are usually too convoluted to explain as simply as that. If there is a part 4 in the works, this might be another plot tangent they would work on. Otherwise, it just looks like a red herring.

I just thought he immediately jumped to the conclusion (when Barbossa told him they had Calypso and thus stood a chance against the East India Company and the Flying Dutchman) that Elizabeth was the incarnation of Calypso, and acted on that mistaken belief.

Monstre
06-04-2007, 08:25 AM
It's obvious that there was something special about Elizabeth that made him say it to her; it would also partly explain why Jack votes for her at Shipwreck Cove later on
I think "why Jack votes for Elizabeth" is easier than that.

They had just gotten done saying that there has not been a Pirate king for years, because every pirate always votes for themself. So Jack knew that it would come out a stalemate again unless one of them did something about it. If I recall correctly, I think Jack agreed with Elizabeth's preferred immediate course of action (fight, rather than hole up)? And Elizabeth had already cast her vote for herself, so the only way for the vote to come out not tied would be for Jack to vote for her.

ragerdude
06-04-2007, 08:44 AM
However, when Elizabeth is taken (willingly) on board Sao Feng's ship, he mentions something about "her" (Calypso) being released at last, and while saying this he is talking to (and presumably about) Elizabeth.
While Sao Feng and Barbossa were negotiating on the deck of the Pearl, Barbossa mentions that they have Calypso bound in human form. Barbossa (through some eye glances) tricks Feng into thinking that Elizabeth is Calypso. Then Barbossa, with Elizabeth's consent, use that "Calypso" as leverage. In exchange for "Calypso," Feng agrees to help Barbossa escape from Beckett.

When talking to Feng on the Empress, Elizabeth was able to figure out who Calypso was, and use Feng's mistake to her advantage by pretending to be Calypso.

Chronos
06-04-2007, 12:16 PM
Dude, Intravenus, you need an explanation for how Kiera Knightly is able to incite lust in men?

Well, OK, I don't actually understand it entirely, either, but I can vehemently attest that whatever it is, it works.

And I really wonder, too, what the exact timeline was between Davy and Calypso. Not so much when the events between them occured, but who betrayed whom first. We know that Calypso betrayed Davy by not being there for him at the anniversary, and we know that Davy betrayed Calypso by telling the Pirate Lords how to bind her, but which came first?

Ivorybill
06-04-2007, 01:15 PM
No questions or answers from me, as y'all have done an admirable job, but may I vent?

Am I the only one here slightly bugged by the post-credit "bonus scene" business? I may be one of the dimmer bulbs in the box, but after nearly 3 hours parked in an over air conditioned room with a slimy floor and uncomfortable seat sorting out a bunch of odd plot twists, I don't want to hang around for another few minutes to see the "real" ending of the movie. Go ahead and show the whole thing, then show the credits. Thanks.

In this case, I took my 13 year old daughter and 10 year old son to the show. My daughter in particular was upset by the Will as Davy Jones ending and his forced separation from Elizabeth. Keeping the scene explaining the one ten year term if your lady love remains true would have at least added some hope to the story, made the "bonus scene" either unnecessary or particularly satisfying, and would have averted some teenaged angst in my house.

Elendil's Heir
06-04-2007, 01:20 PM
Yeah! And left us all a lot less saddlesore.

Monstre
06-04-2007, 02:11 PM
Am I the only one here slightly bugged by the post-credit "bonus scene" business?
Other movies have done this before, but it seems to be happening more frequently. But I'm with you -- I wish I didn't have to sit through the lengthy credits to see it, because after three hours in the theater, by that time I had to pee like a racehorse...

WOOKINPANUB
06-04-2007, 02:55 PM
Plus, it was a really lame scene, IMO. And considering POTC seemingly has the longest credits list in history it made me doubly angry. Which reminds me, the first POTC was on tv the other night and they graciously showed the "last scene" before the credits. Much obliged.

garygnu
06-04-2007, 03:45 PM
...but after nearly 3 hours parked in an over air conditioned room...
You're lucky. The theater I was in apparently forgot to even turn the AC on.

ragerdude
06-04-2007, 06:32 PM
And I really wonder, too, what the exact timeline was between Davy and Calypso. Not so much when the events between them occured, but who betrayed whom first. We know that Calypso betrayed Davy by not being there for him at the anniversary, and we know that Davy betrayed Calypso by telling the Pirate Lords how to bind her, but which came first?

It seems to me that Calypso betrayed Davy first, and Davy's betrayal was a response to that.

In the scene where Davy visits Tia Dalma in the brig of the Pearl, she is not aware that Davy was the one who betrayed her. She is very friendly to him, gives him her heart, promises that they will be together forever once she is freed from her human bonds.

While she knew that the Brethren Court were the ones that bound her, she did not know that it was Davy who showed them how. She only found that out when Will told her as she was being released. It was at that moment that she became very angry, etc.

ragerdude
06-04-2007, 06:43 PM
Am I the only one here slightly bugged by the post-credit "bonus scene" business? I may be one of the dimmer bulbs in the box, but after nearly 3 hours parked in an over air conditioned room with a slimy floor and uncomfortable seat sorting out a bunch of odd plot twists, I don't want to hang around for another few minutes to see the "real" ending of the movie. Go ahead and show the whole thing, then show the credits. Thanks.

If you don't want to hang around to see the bonus scene, then don't. It's exactly that -- a bonus scene. It's no different than having extra features material on DVDs. Are you opposed to those? It's there for the die-hard fans, like me. Ninety percent of the people seem to leave the theater as soon as the credits start. These are the non-fanatics who don't know or don't care about the extras scene.

bubastis
06-04-2007, 07:36 PM
What do you get after three hours of POTC?






A Numb ARRRRse.



Questions; Whats with the singing at the start? A soldier tells Beckett (or Norrington, or whoever) that "They've started Singing", to which he replies "Good". Eh? Whats all that about?!

Pity the Kraken went out like a bitch, too. And we didnt even see it happen. In fact, it flew over the heads of most of our gang that it was the Kraken was washed up on the beach.

medstar
06-04-2007, 07:53 PM
I don't remember them giving any timeline for how long ago Davy Jones and Calypso made their agreement. Based on the four meetings of the Pirate Lords, I was thinking that the first meeting occurred maybe a century ago, with the last meeting being at least 50 years ago. (It was before Barbosa's lifetime.) As for Davy Jones' transformation, it sounded to me like Jones turned into a monster physically because he had turned into one mentally, having abandoned his mission and having let his bitterness turn him into a cruel and merciless bastard.

BTW, I saw the beginning of Curse of the Black Pearl tonight, and I realized that the[b] two redcoats who were guarding the chest on board the Flying Dutchman were the same two guys who were guarding the Dauntless[\b] when Jack first arrived at Port Royal.



At the end of the battle when the [b]Endeavor[\b] is getting raked by the two pirate ships, those same two guards swing over to the [b]Black Pearl[\b]. They emerge from belowdecks wearing pirate garb and "talking pirate."

Monstre
06-04-2007, 08:11 PM
At the end of the battle when the [b]Endeavor[\b] is getting raked by the two pirate ships, those same two guards swing over to the [b]Black Pearl[\b]. They emerge from belowdecks wearing pirate garb and "talking pirate."
Yep -- they are the ones who try to swing over, and they arrive lower than the railing, hitting the side of the ship. Later, they have put on pirate clothes and are cheering along with the crew of the Pearl.

Clearly, they decided it was safer to join the winning ship.

garygnu
06-04-2007, 08:26 PM
...Questions; Whats with the singing at the start? A soldier tells Beckett (or Norrington, or whoever) that "They've started Singing", to which he replies "Good". Eh? Whats all that about?!...
It wasn't explained very well, but apparently that song had to be sung in order to call together the meeting of the pirate brethren. Beckett wanted this result, which is why he was having so many people hanged (so they'd start with the bloody singing), because he wanted to eliminate all the big-time pirates at once.
No it doesn't seem to make much sense.

[geeky screenwriter mode]
The scene further establishes Beckett as wholly cruel and soulless tyrant, but at the same time an omnipotent, calculating puppettmaster. At the same time, the mystic nature of the "song is sung = pirates must form comittee" commandment eliminates rival pirates' excuses for not going along with our heroes' plans.
Give me a week and $100,000 and I could come up with something similar that A) makes more sense, and B) doesn't take 30 minutes of screentime.
[/gsm]

Ivorybill
06-05-2007, 12:10 AM
If you don't want to hang around to see the bonus scene, then don't. It's exactly that -- a bonus scene.Thanks for clearing that up for me. Luckily our neighborhood theater had unlocked the exit doors so that we could get out.
It's no different than having extra features material on DVDs. Are you opposed to those?Not at all. I can sit in the comfort of my home and choose what I want to see and when I want to see it.
Ninety percent of the people seem to leave the theater as soon as the credits start. These are the non-fanatics who don't know or don't care about the extras scene.I'll respectfully disagree. This particular scene added some value to the to overall story arc. The monkey stealing the Aztec gold and the dog winding up chief of the cannibals were throwaway scenes. Fun, but not illuminating. The Will/Davy returning to find Elizabeth and their son was the true end to the movie, and the film makers (in my humble opinion) should have included it as part of the film. Especially given that they apparently chose to cut information indicating that Will/Davy could be released from the Dutchman if Elizabeth was there to meet him a decade later.

As I said earlier, I'm only "slightly bugged" by this trend. I can wait for the DVD or read about it later if I don't want to sit through the credits for a summer popcorn flick. If I ran the zoo, the entire movie would be shown before the credits roll and garygnu's theater would have working AC.

Incubus
06-05-2007, 01:34 AM
I was confused how both Jack and Barbossa were pirate lords. It was my understanding that Barbossa was Jack's 1st mate. How did Barbossa get his Pirate Lord title?

Alessan
06-05-2007, 05:14 AM
I was confused how both Jack and Barbossa were pirate lords. It was my understanding that Barbossa was Jack's 1st mate. How did Barbossa get his Pirate Lord title?

How did Elizabeth get hers?

He probably stole it from someone when he was captaining the Pearl.

simster
06-05-2007, 11:39 AM
How did Elizabeth get hers?

He probably stole it from someone when he was captaining the Pearl.

Elizabeth's was given to her by Feng upon his death.

Barbossa's was probably legit, Jack was made Captian by his deal with Davey Jones - which leads one to wonder how he became a Pirate Lord - or is just being a Captain (and having a piece of 8) enough?

My question - If Barbosa's piece of eight was the eye, why was the pirate so eager to get a new one in the first movie? (since he had been holding it for Barbosa) - Also, since Barbosa 'died' in the first movie, shouldnt that have made that pirate the acting Pirate Lord since he held the piece?

Sunrazor
06-05-2007, 12:57 PM
I thought the whole heart-in-the-chest thing was how the captain was kept indentured to the Flying dutchman. When Elizabeth's father stabbed the heart, though, his was taken as a replacement -- so wouldn't that make him the master of the Dutchman?

Bottom line: Nothing has to make sense except to get us frm one scene to the next.

Sunrazor
06-05-2007, 02:40 PM
I now realize that Elizabeth'f father DIDN'T stab the heart -- he was just passing along the information to Elizabeth, hoping it could help her. So, apparently, stabbing the Dutchman's master's heart finishes off the captain, at which point another captain is needed.

So when the Dutchman's crewmen lost all their scaly icky parts, that was because Jones was finally dispatched? Will William also start to get all squiddy, and his father start to get all scaly again?

Finally, an easy queston -- will there be a fourth POTC movie? (Do pirates say "AARRRGGHHHH!"?)

garygnu
06-05-2007, 03:13 PM
If Barbosa's piece of eight was the eye, why was the pirate so eager to get a new one in the first movie? (since he had been holding it for Barbosa) - Also, since Barbosa 'died' in the first movie, shouldnt that have made that pirate the acting Pirate Lord since he held the piece?
My retcon guess would be he didn't want to 'hold' it any more, as he had to be obsessed with retreiving the specific eye, rather than knowing he could always just get a new one. It seemed that holding the "piece of eight" wasn't enough to make you a pirate lord. Barbarossa needed to have officially passed it to a new captain.
.
So when the Dutchman's crewmen lost all their scaly icky parts, that was because Jones was finally dispatched? Will William also start to get all squiddy, and his father start to get all scaly again?
The fishy-ness of the crew was a result of Jones not fulfilling his duties of ferrying sea-dead to the afterlife, so as long as Will does that, they should all remain human-like beings.

Shirley Ujest
06-05-2007, 03:20 PM
My question - If Barbosa's piece of eight was the eye, why was the pirate so eager to get a new one in the first movie? (since he had been holding it for Barbosa) - Also, since Barbosa 'died' in the first movie, shouldnt that have made that pirate the acting Pirate Lord since he held the piece?


Excellent question.

I'm thinking that the Pieces of 8 item ( eyeball or whatever) cannot be stolen, but has to be bequethed to the next Pirate Lord in order to make the magic work.


Also, back to the beginning and the " The pirates are singing" " Good" bit. That was really disjointed, and I felt at the time it was rushed and poorly edited. garygun's geeky screen writer guesstimation makes more sense and I wish I had 100K to send to him.



Another question, after all the credits we see Elizabeth with her 9 year old son standing on the cliffs staring out and waving at the Flying Dutchmen. Is that the same kid who was singing in the beginning or are they messing with us?

garygnu
06-05-2007, 04:06 PM
...Another question, after all the credits we see Elizabeth with her 9 year old son standing on the cliffs staring out and waving at the Flying Dutchmen. Is that the same kid who was singing in the beginning or are they messing with us?
No. The boy in the beginning is listed in the credits as "Cabin Boy" played by Brendyn Bell (http://imdb.com/name/nm2604966/). AFAICT, the kid in the end is "Young Will Turner" played by Dominic Scott Kay (http://imdb.com/name/nm1122614/). I noticed that last credit while waiting and was confused until the tag scene.
I thought it might be the same actor who played "Young Will" in the first movie, but no (http://imdb.com/name/nm0808057/).
Thanks for the compliment, BTW.

Kythereia
06-05-2007, 04:19 PM
No. The boy in the beginning is listed in the credits as "Cabin Boy" played by Brendyn Bell (http://imdb.com/name/nm2604966/). AFAICT, the kid in the end is "Young Will Turner" played by Dominic Scott Kay (http://imdb.com/name/nm1122614/). I noticed that last credit while waiting and was confused until the tag scene.

Thank you! I kept wondering about this for much longer than I should have. Talk about a plot twist--that would've been a plot backhand...

*adds more money to the garygnu $100K fund*

Push You Down
06-05-2007, 04:38 PM
Finally, an easy queston -- will there be a fourth POTC movie? (Do pirates say "AARRRGGHHHH!"?)

Depp says he'd do another one.

Intravenus De Milo
06-05-2007, 09:03 PM
Dude, Intravenus, you need an explanation for how Kiera Knightly is able to incite lust in men?
Well, considering that I'm a hetero female, those sort of things aren't immediately obvious to me :D

It just seemed weird to me how Sao Feng was at first treating Eizabeth very reverentially, dressing her like a queen (in very non-revealing clothes, no less...not some slave girl Leia outfit), talking about "her" return...and then, all of a sudden, decided that he wanted to jump her bones. If the exact same thing (sudden burst of unexplained lust) hadn't happened to Barbossa WRT Tia on the Black Pearl, it would have completely looked like a misunderstanding on Sao Feng's part. Of course, it could just be an unresolved plot hole. Who knows.

Pity the Kraken went out like a bitch, too. And we didnt even see it happen. In fact, it flew over the heads of most of our gang that it was the Kraken was washed up on the beach.
Really. I was hoping to see a lot of the Kraken in this movie, but I suppose Beckett found the Flying Dutchman to be a more efficient pirate-killer. Poor squid, I almost felt sorry for him (or her, or it...whatever). And it would have been sweet to see Beckett get his comeuppance at the end of a long, slimy tentacle. Alas.

Unintentionally Blank
06-05-2007, 10:40 PM
I found it to be about a 6 out of ten. Entertaining, but enough eyerolling moments that it took me out of the movie a lot. (Elizabeth Swan, girding her pirate friends to the noble battle. Badguy not even saying 'fire', The East India Co having what looked to be several _thousand_ ships)

The plot holes were SO huge, that I pretty much just gave up trying to explain it and watch the movie. Best not shine the light too bright on it.

si_blakely
06-06-2007, 03:11 AM
The East India Co having what looked to be several _thousand_ ships)This is an annoying trend in modern movies - giving your heroes enemies beyond all hope, but beyond all reason, too. The Orc scene in Moria in Fellowship of the Ring is like this. It's not enough to show sufficient enemies to kill the heroes, the screen has to be filled with digitally replicated opponents so that even the dimmest viewer knows that the heroes need a miracle. :smack:

Takes me out of the moment.

Si

garygnu
06-06-2007, 09:12 AM
...Really. I was hoping to see a lot of the Kraken in this movie, but I suppose Beckett found the Flying Dutchman to be a more efficient pirate-killer. Poor squid, I almost felt sorry for him (or her, or it...whatever). And it would have been sweet to see Beckett get his comeuppance at the end of a long, slimy tentacle. Alas.
They seemed to go out of their way to make Beckett and his henchman seem omniscient and omnipotent. In the case of the Kraken's death, Beckett pulled the "force your new slave kill a loved one" trick. It helps to break the will of said slave. It also made it so ILM, The Orphanage, The Collective, et al. could do new and different F/X instead of doing the sea monster bit again.
It was a bit set up for the East India Co. crew's obvious final demise. Whether the method of that demise felt satisfying is completely in the eyes of the viewer.

Ludovic
06-06-2007, 09:19 AM
This is an annoying trend in modern movies - giving your heroes enemies beyond all hope, but beyond all reason, too. The Orc scene in Moria in Fellowship of the Ring is like this. It's not enough to show sufficient enemies to kill the heroes, the screen has to be filled with digitally replicated opponents so that even the dimmest viewer knows that the heroes need a miracle. :smack:

Takes me out of the moment.

SiWhat is this new digital devilry?

Unintentionally Blank
06-06-2007, 09:23 AM
The Orc scene in Moria in Fellowship of the Ring is like this. It's not enough to show sufficient enemies to kill the heroes, the screen has to be filled with digitally replicated opponents so that even the dimmest viewer knows that the heroes need a miracle

How else was WETA supposed to show off Massive?

Watching King Kong (also a WETA production), they did a sweeping pan around 'the big fence' that felt exactly like a Lord of the Rings flyover.

si_blakely
06-06-2007, 09:43 AM
How else was WETA supposed to show off Massive?With the battle scenes at Helms Deep and Minas Tirith. And note I didn't complain about those, the size of the armies were actually appropriate and looked fine.

But an ocean full of sailing ships - rubbish.

Si

Marlitharn
06-06-2007, 10:16 AM
I saw this Monday night and was, frankly, disappointed.

One thing that bugged me was during the big battle scene at the end. It seems like only the Pearl was doing any fighting; all the other pirate ships were just hanging back and cheering at the appropriate moments.

I didn't realize that was the Kraken washed up on the beach; I thought it was a whale! Do they ever explain how the Kraken dies?

All those multiple Jack Sparrows, while pretty to look at (oh hell yeah), struck me as a little too cheesy. Johnny Depp is a good enough actor to portray a man going slowly mad without the help of doppelgangers. I noticed one of the Sparrows had a large amount of text tattooed on his back, did anyone catch what it said?

I will say that Orlando Bloom, at the very end, was smokin' hot. I don't know why, but take an average-looking guy and put him in a pirate costume, and it just makes me want to climb him.

There will be a part four. The only question is will they set it before or after Will's stint as the Dutchman ends.

Kythereia
06-06-2007, 12:27 PM
This is an annoying trend in modern movies - giving your heroes enemies beyond all hope, but beyond all reason, too. The Orc scene in Moria in Fellowship of the Ring is like this. It's not enough to show sufficient enemies to kill the heroes, the screen has to be filled with digitally replicated opponents so that even the dimmest viewer knows that the heroes need a miracle. :smack:

Takes me out of the moment.

Si

Thinking about it, this bothers me, too. At least in The Fellowship of the Ring Moria scene, the heroes' victory (or at least continued survival) makes a little sense--all those orcs are scared off by the approach of the now-awakened Balrog, allowing the Fellowship to escape while Gandalf makes his big stand.

In At World's End, though, Beckett freezes in combat, so not only does every other soldier desert the ship, but this huge digitally recreated fleet turns tail and runs against--what eight, nine ships? Yes, I get that the Flying Dutchman is magical and practically unbeatable and all, but still...

Chronos
06-06-2007, 07:05 PM
It just seemed weird to me how Sao Feng was at first treating Eizabeth very reverentially, dressing her like a queen (in very non-revealing clothes, no less...not some slave girl Leia outfit), talking about "her" return...and then, all of a sudden, decided that he wanted to jump her bones.Yes, Elizabeth's Pirate Queen outfit was completely unrevealing, but it was also insanely sexy. You'll just have to take my word on this. A huge kudos to whoever did the costumes, incidentally (just don't ask me how authentic any of them were).

I didn't realize that was the Kraken washed up on the beach; I thought it was a whale! Do they ever explain how the Kraken dies?Shortly before the scene where we see the washed-up Kraken, Beckett is threatening Davy Jones (or rather, his heart), and complaining of his insubordinance. He says something about how Davy still hasn't killed his "pet", and points the cannons at the heart. So presumably, Davy, under threat from Beckett, ordered the Kraken to beach itself. As for Beckett's reasons, presumably, he saw the Kraken as a power he couldn't control, or worse, a power that Davy Jones might hold over him, and he didn't want the competition.

Unintentionally Blank
06-06-2007, 07:24 PM
Shortly before the scene where we see the washed-up Kraken, Beckett is threatening Davy Jones (or rather, his heart), and complaining of his insubordinance. He says something about how Davy still hasn't killed his "pet", and points the cannons at the heart. So presumably, Davy, under threat from Beckett, ordered the Kraken to beach itself. As for Beckett's reasons, presumably, he saw the Kraken as a power he couldn't control, or worse, a power that Davy Jones might hold over him, and he didn't want the competition.

That wasn't what I thought I saw. I thought Beckett said something about _killing_ the Kraken and if he [Beckett] could take down the kraken, Davy didn't stand a chance and had better behave.

Could be wrong though, I have been before.

medstar
06-06-2007, 08:06 PM
One theme that was pounded into my head was the overwhelming dirt and filth of the movie. Damn, but if I had been up close and personal to Sao Feng's filthy nails, I might've retched all over him. Except for Elizabeth Swann, Will Turner, Beckett and Norrington, I thought dark brown teeth were normal. It's a good thing this movie didn't have Smell-o-vision.

GingerOfTheNorth
06-06-2007, 08:09 PM
As someone mentioned upthread, has anyone figured out what Calypso said after she became a giantess?

Siam Sam
06-07-2007, 11:38 PM
... and he stands behind the Japanese pirate lady and rubs her shoulders ...

Although she was played by an ethnic Japanese actress -- Takayo Fischer, nee Tsubouchi -- I think Mistress Ching was supposed to be Chinese. At least, Ching is a Chinese name. Did her boat look like a junk? We saw the movie earlier this week, and I don't remember now.

But my question has to do with the time period of the trilogy. Singapore was founded in 1819, but somehow I was under the impression that the movie was set in the 18th century. Did they ever state a year? Like at the beginning of the first film? There may have been some sort of small fishing village on the site prior to 1819, but it would not have looked anything like in the movie until well into the 19th century.

Siam Sam
06-08-2007, 02:59 AM
Oh, and the wife and I thought this third installment was better than the second but not as good as the first.

NailBunny
06-08-2007, 11:01 AM
But my question has to do with the time period of the trilogy. Singapore was founded in 1819, but somehow I was under the impression that the movie was set in the 18th century. Did they ever state a year? Like at the beginning of the first film? There may have been some sort of small fishing village on the site prior to 1819, but it would not have looked anything like in the movie until well into the 19th century.

This is a well-known flub of the Pirates movies, going back to the first one, that they keep referencing Singapore in a time period well before Singapore existed.

From the IMDB page on Dead Man's Chest:
Anachronisms: Although several people mentioned that Jack Sparrow had gone to 'Singapore', that island country was not found and given the name 'Singapore' until the early 19th century by Sir Stamford Raffles of the East India Company in 1819.

Siam Sam
06-08-2007, 11:07 AM
Ah HA! I thought so. And the Golden Age of Pirates was, what? About 1675 to 1725 or thereabouts?

Unintentionally Blank
06-08-2007, 11:10 AM
Not knowing ANYTHING about large sailing boats, it seems like they behave more like motorboats with sails than anything that had to rely on the wind for movement.

Push You Down
06-08-2007, 11:17 AM
That wasn't what I thought I saw. I thought Beckett said something about _killing_ the Kraken and if he [Beckett] could take down the kraken, Davy didn't stand a chance and had better behave.

Could be wrong though, I have been before.

Beckett had Davy kill the kraken ("his pet") inbetween movies. It was pretty clear to me from that scene that the kraken had already been dispatched at the begining.

simster
06-08-2007, 11:36 AM
As someone mentioned upthread, has anyone figured out what Calypso said after she became a giantess?

I thought she said "Fools" or something to that affect.... and then she got a really bad case of the crabs....

Unintentionally Blank
06-08-2007, 12:02 PM
.... and then she got a really bad case of the crabs....

LOL. I WILL say, the whole 'stone crab' incident WAS a good bit of braincramp filming.

Is he mad? Is the Sun getting to him? Have the voices always been there? I didn't expect a drug trip in the middle of a Disney flick.

Sampiro
06-11-2007, 07:02 PM
Another question just popped into my head:
How in the hell did one "pirate lord" end up the first mate on another's ship?

I was confused how both Jack and Barbossa were pirate lords. It was my understanding that Barbossa was Jack's 1st mate. How did Barbossa get his Pirate Lord title?


Of all the many things I disliked about this movie, this was probably the one that bothered me the most. Of the two I can understand Barbossa being a pirate lord more than Sparrow as the latter's a boob- he hadn't even had a ship for many years. I can only assume he got his from his dad (or stepdad or whatever Keith Richards was supposed to be- I'm going with stepdad as I understand the Young Jack Sparrow books give him different parentage).

Plus he and Sparrow have both died. Wouldn't that negate their lordship automatically? Piracy is a pretty high-risk occupation, plus if a pirate ship goes down then chances are his second goes down as well, so you'd think there'd be some sort of automatic succession.

I generally disliked 80% of this movie and don't understand its high ratings (7.5 last time I checked) on imdb. It was a huge mess that asked a lot more questions than it answered.

1. Why didn't the Pirate Lords force Calypso to promise to aid them and not take revenge as a part of her release? This would seem a pretty obvious thing to me.

2. The Black Pearl and the Flying Dutchman blast the hell out of Beckett's flagship, ending the battle. Uh, dudes--- Beckett's gotta have a second in command out there, and there's DOZENS if not HUNDREDS of warships still there.

3. How did Calypso raise Barbossa from the dead? For that matter why did she, because presumably she knew the eye was his piece of Eight.

4. If this was the first meeting of the pirate lords in anyone's lifetime, then how did so many of the pieces of 8 happen to have personal significance to the holder (the Japanese woman's eyeglasses, the eye, etc.) as you'd think whatever the original pirate lords had used would have been their property.

5. Is will released after 10 years or not? Why didn't his dad or another member of the crew stab the heart (Bootstrap already signed on for eternity, might as well be captain as opposed to just crew).

6. Jones didn't seem very concerned about killing British troops did he? You'd think he'd fear reprisal from Beckett for that.

7. I don't think the standing in water thing would really let him be on land- I call foul. Now standing in the tide, maybe.

8. Beckett obviously killed Swann, but did you understand how or when? It at first implied Swann had stabbed the heart (Swann's words), but obviously not.

9. I've never been in the military, but I would think that if a commander freezes then his highest subordinate would come to the fro immediately, just as if the commander was killed.

10. Wouldn't Dutchman and Pearl blast hell out of each other in that driveby? There's no way of controlling how far the cannonball's going to go after all.

Jack being rescued from the dead had to have some consequences- plus why couldn't they rescue Swann since they had rescued Jack anyway? And as with the center of the Galaxy in STAR TREK V, the journey to the other side was time consuming but not as horrendous as you'd think. (Other than seeing his doppelgangers, did death affect Jack much? And is he now less vulnerable to pain?)


Anyway, I thought it was a monumental mess and a way to go "Look what we can do!" with special effects at the expense of plot. It's a do-over- this can't have been what they were going for. I'd give it a D+.

NailBunny
06-12-2007, 11:22 AM
Of all the many things I disliked about this movie, this was probably the one that bothered me the most. Of the two I can understand Barbossa being a pirate lord more than Sparrow as the latter's a boob- he hadn't even had a ship for many years. I can only assume he got his from his dad (or stepdad or whatever Keith Richards was supposed to be- I'm going with stepdad as I understand the Young Jack Sparrow books give him different parentage).

Plus he and Sparrow have both died. Wouldn't that negate their lordship automatically? Piracy is a pretty high-risk occupation, plus if a pirate ship goes down then chances are his second goes down as well, so you'd think there'd be some sort of automatic succession.

My theory on why Barbossa and Jack are both pirate lords: I'm thinking Jack negotiated for it somehow as part of his whole deal with Davy Jones 13 years ago. As to why Barbossa would be the first mate of another pirate lord, I was under the impression that before the mutiny, they were friends, but Barbossa scrapped that friendship when he betrayed Jack as he perceived him (a bit rightfully so) to be a rubbish pirate.

1. Why didn't the Pirate Lords force Calypso to promise to aid them and not take revenge as a part of her release? This would seem a pretty obvious thing to me.

I wouldn't trust a single promise made by anyone in these movies, would you? Also, I thought she kinda did as part of her deal with Barbossa (see below).

2. The Black Pearl and the Flying Dutchman blast the hell out of Beckett's flagship, ending the battle. Uh, dudes--- Beckett's gotta have a second in command out there, and there's DOZENS if not HUNDREDS of warships still there.

Yeah, it is kinda silly that the five BILLION other ships out there just give up. Mr. Bunny and I call these "Indiana Jones moments".

3. How did Calypso raise Barbossa from the dead? For that matter why did she, because presumably she knew the eye was his piece of Eight.

I don't know the exact mechanics of how she did it, but dude, she's Calypso! She probably just waved her hands around and said "Make it so" or something. And she did it because he agreed to release her from her human form.

4. If this was the first meeting of the pirate lords in anyone's lifetime, then how did so many of the pieces of 8 happen to have personal significance to the holder (the Japanese woman's eyeglasses, the eye, etc.) as you'd think whatever the original pirate lords had used would have been their property.

I didn't get this. Did we actually see Mrs. Ching wearing the glasses? And about the eye, we don't know how Ragetti lost his...perhaps Barbossa plucked it out just to make him a handy receptacle for that particular piece of 8?

5. Is will released after 10 years or not? Why didn't his dad or another member of the crew stab the heart (Bootstrap already signed on for eternity, might as well be captain as opposed to just crew).

No. There was supposed to be such a scene that suggested so, but it was cut, so it is not canon. And Bootstrap as well as the rest of the crew didn't even seem to know of the existance of the key before Will mentioned it in Dead Man's Chest, and even if they did, there was nothing to suggest the connection between Davy Jones' miserable eternal brutality and the fact that he had been betrayed by Calypso and had not performed his duties ferrying souls to the afterlife...at least all of them, except Bootstrap, had the thought that in a century they might be free to die.

6. Jones didn't seem very concerned about killing British troops did he? You'd think he'd fear reprisal from Beckett for that.

I think he knew that Beckett needed him and there was a large amount of bloodshed he could get away with as a result of it.

7. I don't think the standing in water thing would really let him be on land- I call foul. Now standing in the tide, maybe.

I thought that was dirty pool as well, although I can't believe I never thought of it myself, so there you go.

8. Beckett obviously killed Swann, but did you understand how or when? It at first implied Swann had stabbed the heart (Swann's words), but obviously not.

I don't understand why everyone is getting the impression that Governor Swann stabbed the heart! He never said so; he was asking too many questions about the heart and what advantage it was giving Beckett, and his "usefulness had outlived its purpose" or whatever Beckett said. They didn't need him around, and he was a liability. I don't know in exactly what manner they killed him, but I'm betting it wasn't pleasant.

9. I've never been in the military, but I would think that if a commander freezes then his highest subordinate would come to the fro immediately, just as if the commander was killed.

Indiana Jones moment. :D

10. Wouldn't Dutchman and Pearl blast hell out of each other in that driveby? There's no way of controlling how far the cannonball's going to go after all.

You're thinking too much! Look at the Endeavour explode!

Jack being rescued from the dead had to have some consequences- plus why couldn't they rescue Swann since they had rescued Jack anyway? And as with the center of the Galaxy in STAR TREK V, the journey to the other side was time consuming but not as horrendous as you'd think. (Other than seeing his doppelgangers, did death affect Jack much? And is he now less vulnerable to pain?)

One of the only parts of the movie that pissed me off was the assertion that Jack was not merely dead, but sent to a place of punishment. Swann I'm thinking was merely dead, and yeah Calypso probably could have saved him if she'd been so inclined, but what's in it for her? It bothers me that Jack was sent to an afterlife of punishment and Barbossa was not - Jack is a good man, dammit! What did he ever do to deserve that? And yes, death affected Jack - he now appears to be rather batshit crazy and hellbent on living forever, which is sort of what got him into this mess in the first place. His character arc has come full circle and he's not really grown or learned anything at all (I don't agree with that, actually, but it's how you could interpret Jack's ultimate "punishment").

Push You Down
06-12-2007, 02:17 PM
Jack is a good man, dammit!


...did you see the second movie? Jacks an asshole. He actively tries to get the other characters killed.

NailBunny
06-12-2007, 02:37 PM
He actively tries to get the other characters killed.

How so? The only time he could be considered actively trying to kill anyone is during the three way sword fight, and then I argue he is more defending himself/trying to make off with the key than trying to injure anyone.

He's selfish to be sure, but he tries as hard as possible to keep his associates out of harm's way unless it's inevitable. He's certainly not prone to violent crimes like murder or rape, which seems to be a lot more than can be said for other pirates like Barbossa and Sao Feng, yet it's driven home in AWE that Jack is the one being punished in the afterlife. That irks me.

Chronos
06-12-2007, 02:54 PM
1. Why didn't the Pirate Lords force Calypso to promise to aid them and not take revenge as a part of her release? This would seem a pretty obvious thing to me.Calypso has already proven what her promise is worth. They were much better off begging for leniency once she had her godhood back, as they did in the movie.3. How did Calypso raise Barbossa from the dead? For that matter why did she, because presumably she knew the eye was his piece of Eight.How? She's a goddess, and even in human form she seemed quite conversant with the supernatural. Why? Not because she needed his Piece, but because she needed him to retrieve Jack and his Piece.5. Is will released after 10 years or not? Why didn't his dad or another member of the crew stab the heart (Bootstrap already signed on for eternity, might as well be captain as opposed to just crew).For the same reason that Jack didn't stab the heart: Will was mortally wounded, and the only way he could not die was to be the one to stab the heart.6. Jones didn't seem very concerned about killing British troops did he? You'd think he'd fear reprisal from Beckett for that.Davy Jones? Fear? He doesn't have much of that. And he's too much in the habit of wanton destruction.8. Beckett obviously killed Swann, but did you understand how or when? It at first implied Swann had stabbed the heart (Swann's words), but obviously not.Probably hanged, maybe stabbed in his sleep. He could probably have trumped up some charge to "legitimize" it, but since Norrington didn't know, I'll guess the latter possibility.10. Wouldn't Dutchman and Pearl blast hell out of each other in that driveby? There's no way of controlling how far the cannonball's going to go after all.In any of the movies, do we ever see a cannonball go in one side of a ship and clear through out the other side?

Taber
06-12-2007, 02:54 PM
One of the only parts of the movie that pissed me off was the assertion that Jack was not merely dead, but sent to a place of punishment. Swann I'm thinking was merely dead, and yeah Calypso probably could have saved him if she'd been so inclined, but what's in it for her? It bothers me that Jack was sent to an afterlife of punishment and Barbossa was not - Jack is a good man, dammit! What did he ever do to deserve that? And yes, death affected Jack - he now appears to be rather batshit crazy and hellbent on living forever, which is sort of what got him into this mess in the first place. His character arc has come full circle and he's not really grown or learned anything at all (I don't agree with that, actually, but it's how you could interpret Jack's ultimate "punishment").

I beleive Jack was sent to the place of punishment because he still owed Davy Jones some years of servitude, and since Davy Joes is in control of the afterlife of pirates, he controls where Jack goes.

NailBunny
06-12-2007, 02:58 PM
I beleive Jack was sent to the place of punishment because he still owed Davy Jones some years of servitude, and since Davy Joes is in control of the afterlife of pirates, he controls where Jack goes.

Okay, I'll buy that.

Carry on. :)

Sampiro
06-12-2007, 03:11 PM
All in all, just way too busy of a movie with way too many unanswered questions. It's as if they were setting up another series with Turner III and Calypso, et al, more than wrapping up a trilogy.

BTW, any idea why Tia Dalma's teeth were black?

NailBunny
06-12-2007, 03:16 PM
BTW, any idea why Tia Dalma's teeth were black?

I've heard it suggested that she chews a certain kind of root that could account for the black teeth.

Anaamika
06-12-2007, 03:24 PM
I just wanted to say thank you to all the Dopers in this thread. I liked the movie well enough, would probably give it a 6.5 out of 10, but there were lots of unanswered questions and a good percentage of them have been answered here to my satisfaction.

Thanks, all!

And while Orlando Bloom is very cute I still like Jack best...but I'll confess I thought Norrington was something in the second movie, dirty, filthy, bad for you - and pretty smoking.

The rest of it I'll wait for it to come out on DVD. What Calypso says will be in the subtitles. But there were too many plot twists and betrayals...it was a little confusing.

Push You Down
06-12-2007, 03:42 PM
Davy Jones? Fear? He doesn't have much of that.

.........except when Beckett threatened Jones' heart. YOu could tell Davy was afraid of what would happen.

Siam Sam
06-13-2007, 12:08 AM
As someone mentioned upthread, has anyone figured out what Calypso said after she became a giantess?
Speaking of Calypso becoming a giantess, I found it interesting (read: diasappointing) that her clothing became enlarged, too.

Elendil's Heir
06-13-2007, 08:57 AM
Speaking of Calypso becoming a giantess, I found it interesting (read: diasappointing) that her clothing became enlarged, too.

She must have the same tailor as The Incredible Hulk.

Siam Sam
06-13-2007, 11:46 PM
Yes, if there's ANY chance whatsoever that you may suddenly become several times larger, best to go with the super-expanding Spandex.

ivylass
06-24-2007, 05:41 PM
Sorry to bump, but we just saw this last night. I think what they should have done was have Elizabeth and Will stab the heart at the same time. Then they could be together, forever.

:(

complicatingthings13
06-16-2013, 08:02 PM
Even though the sea is a very huge place, has it ever occurred to anyone that the characters never cross paths with Davy Jones in the first movie or Black Beard in the third movie? They never seem to meet them until the story so permits it to happen. If Davy jones has to "take care " of the dead and dying at sea should the original crew of the black pearl at least be visited by thoughts or made a small appearance by davy jones and his crew. The undead are his area of expertise.

Then you have Black Beard who has been tormenting people all over the seven seas and original set of characters don't meet him or at least have a passing? It doesn't fit into the story plot they kind of have going but it just seems a bit odd that the people sailors fear the most are never seen until or really talked about until later. And even then they took out Will and Elisabeth. They just dropped the story like it meant nothing. Will is now in the place of Davy Jones and along trail to the fountain Black beard leaves a trail of bodies and Will is never shown?

One more thing, Calypso is now free and yet they never run into her again after the third movie. With as much time they spend at sea, she must be there right?

Trinopus
06-16-2013, 08:22 PM
If Xena the Warrior Princess was around at the time of King David of Israel, how is she also around at the time of Julius Caesar?

i.e.: you're over-analyzing things. The people who made the original movies didn't know about the characters that would be introduced in the later movies.

(How come Gandalf didn't just put Frodo on an Eagle and have them fly straight to Mt. Doom?)

Mahaloth
06-16-2013, 09:03 PM
Zombie Pirates!

You probably could have made a new thread for those questions instead of bumping a 6 year old one, but anyway....yeah, they didn't know about those characters in advance so no one ran into them.

That, and Davy Jones came back to get Jack's soul, which wasn't due until the second movie.

Chronos
06-16-2013, 09:13 PM
It's simplest to just ignore the fourth movie, which was far inferior to any of the first three anyway.

Chimera
06-16-2013, 10:14 PM
One more thing, Calypso is now free and yet they never run into her again after the third movie. With as much time they spend at sea, she must be there right?

Hey, I'm in America and so are you. Why don't we keep running into each other?

Diceman
06-17-2013, 09:15 AM
5. no, it doesn't bother me. Jack is a "loveable rouge," which is basically a euphemistic way of saying that he's a charismatic sociopath who shamelessly takes advantage of people whenever he can. He richly deserves every ounce of shit that get smeared in his face ;)

Diceman
06-17-2013, 09:21 AM
ETA:

Regarding the fourth movie, I'm actually curious to know if anybody on the Black Pearl except for the monkey is still alive, or if they all starved to death during the time the ship was trapped in the bottle.

If they ever make a fifth movie, I really hope the monkey gets thrown into a volcano as a sacrifice to a Polynesian god, or something like that. I really hate that damn thing.

Trinopus
06-17-2013, 04:11 PM
. . . He richly deserves every ounce of shit that get smeared in his face ;)

To his credit, he would probably agree with you. "All right... I deserved that..."

. . . If they ever make a fifth movie, I really hope the monkey gets thrown into a volcano as a sacrifice to a Polynesian god, or something like that. I really hate that damn thing.

Heh. I hate it, but kind of like it for being so hateful. It makes an excellent Nemesis. The main risk is for them to over-use it. So, tone it down a little, yes, but don't eliminate it entirely.

(Same advice I would have given for Jar Jar Binks. Tone him way the hell down...but, yes, keep him.)

ExTank
06-17-2013, 05:26 PM
(How come Gandalf didn't just put Frodo on an Eagle and have them fly straight to Mt. Doom?)

Warning: NSFW! This (http://oglaf.com/ornithology/) is the very excellent reason why. Warning: NSFW!

expectopatronum
06-17-2013, 08:14 PM
since this has been bumped i'll go ahead and ask something i could never figure out-after will becomes captain of the dutchman, why couldn't elizabeth go with him? will's dad is free to go, but chooses to stay as part of his crew, so why couldn't she do the same?

Trinopus
06-17-2013, 08:26 PM
ExTank: I love you and want to explore your dungeons!

Chronos
06-18-2013, 07:54 PM
since this has been bumped i'll go ahead and ask something i could never figure out-after will becomes captain of the dutchman, why couldn't elizabeth go with him? will's dad is free to go, but chooses to stay as part of his crew, so why couldn't she do the same?
Or at least, go to sea on her own ship, where she can meet up with Will whenever they like. She is, after all, the Pirate Queen in her own right.

outlierrn
06-19-2013, 03:43 AM
For those asking what Tia Dalma says just before she explodes

"Malfaiteur en Tombeau, Crochir l'Esplanade, Dans l'Fond d'l'eau!". This roughly means "Across all the waters, find the path to he who wrongfully entombed me.''
or
"Malfaiteur en Tombeau, Crochir l'Esplanade, Dans l'Fond d'l'eau!". Speaking in a form of French Creole roughly translated Calypso is saying "To your graves wrongdoers, I bend your path, to the depths of the sea",



from the same wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tia_Dalma

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