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Green Bean
12-30-2007, 02:07 AM
A friend-of-a-friend (let's call her F) has an ex-husband and a couple of kids by him. They share custody. The ex has had problems with drugs in the past. He is currently being regularly tested for drugs at work with urine tests.

Recently, F's son, age 10, has made several references to daddy having him pee in a jar. Naturally, F is concerned that the ex is using drugs again and using the child's urine for the test.

Which raised the question--is it possible to do a test on a urine sample to determine the (approximate) age of the person who produced it? Could they at least tell the difference between urine produced by a grown adult and prepubescent child?

Note: F is addressing her concerns through other channels. This question is just out of curiosity.

ParentalAdvisory
12-30-2007, 02:13 AM
From here:

http://rapiddetect.com/adulteration_test_products.html


Age: Age can not be tested using urine. There is a rumor that approximate age can be detected in urine, and is tested in medical insurance exams. It's a myth. Gender: Gender cannot be tested either. As with age, there is a rumor that gender can be detected in urine, and is tested in medical insurance exams. It's another myth. It may be argued that a pregnancy test can be used to detect the gender of the urine provider, but the same test is used to detect prostate cancer in males.

His main obstacle will be the temperature of the urine during the test, and concealment. Age cannot be tested for in urinalysis.

Sunspace
12-30-2007, 02:29 AM
Gender can't be tested? That strikes me as odd. Does not urine contain cells from the donor? Why can't these be examined for XX or XY chromosomes?

(And why do I have the image of Arnold Schwarzenegger appearing in the ruins of a washroom and declaiming, "I am the Urinator")

Green Bean
12-30-2007, 02:41 AM
"I'll pee back!" :p

bbs2k
12-30-2007, 03:21 AM
Gender can't be tested? That strikes me as odd. Does not urine contain cells from the donor? Why can't these be examined for XX or XY chromosomes? The husband was being tested for a drug screen.

The answer is no.

Green Bean
12-30-2007, 03:34 AM
The husband was being tested for a drug screen.

The answer is no.But additional tests could be performed on the urine.

I'm sure I've seen urine tested for gender on various police procedural TV shows--not that that is proof that such a test exists!

ETA--In this case, a test for the age of the donor needn't be conclusive or anything. Just enough to raise a red flag and compel more accurate testing. (again, this is hypothetical anyway)

Bryan Ekers
12-30-2007, 03:41 AM
Well, they could test for the presence of cooties. That'd be a tip-off of juvenile urine.

Green Bean
12-30-2007, 03:54 AM
Cooties and Legos. Man, those things get everywhere!

Ottoerotic
12-30-2007, 09:34 AM
I'm sure I've seen urine tested for gender on various police procedural TV shows--not that that is proof that such a test exists!

No, usually if they TV show needs to prove that the urine came from a female instead of a male they find some pregnancy indicators in the urine, and thats how he gets busted.

chorpler
12-30-2007, 09:36 AM
No, usually if they TV show needs to prove that the urine came from a female instead of a male they find some pregnancy indicators in the urine, and thats how he gets busted.

Or "female hormones" or birth control pills.

Joey P
12-30-2007, 09:41 AM
From here:

http://rapiddetect.com/adulteration_test_products.html



His main obstacle will be the temperature of the urine during the test, and concealment. Age cannot be tested for in urinalysis.
Putting it in a condom and taping it to your leg was the trick I always heard for keeping the temprature correct.

If I were "F" I would try one of two things. Either keep the kids on the day of (and before) a UA, OR call the testing facility and let them know of your concerns and let them deal with it from there.

Campion
12-30-2007, 12:07 PM
They can test urine for hormones, including testosterone. Theoretically at least a 10 year old boy would have lower testosterone levels than an adult male.

But no one's going to test his urine for testosterone, unless his work is concerned about steroid use.

Will Repair
12-30-2007, 12:12 PM
Let's clear this up. Testee is male, suspected donor is male. Besides. (http://tellmepinkorblue.com/?gclid=CJbU2_u_0JACFQOllgodgk91XA)

KarlGauss
12-30-2007, 02:11 PM
Gender can't be tested? That strikes me as odd. Does not urine contain cells from the donor? Why can't these be examined for XX or XY chromosomes?)You are absolutely right. Since urine contains at least a few cells (white blood cells or kidney/bladder cells), it would be a very simple matter for someone to determine gender from a urine sample (as long as they had the appropriate technology).

Although, as you say, gender testing could be done by looking for the 'Y' chromosome or its absence, nowadays it might even be easier just to use PCR to identify key segments of the 'Y' chromosome. That would certainly be more sensitive than looking for whole 'Y' chromosomes.

aldiboronti
12-30-2007, 03:36 PM
You are absolutely right. Since urine contains at least a few cells (white blood cells or kidney/bladder cells), it would be a very simple matter for someone to determine gender from a urine sample (as long as they had the appropriate technology).

Although, as you say, gender testing could be done by looking for the 'Y' chromosome or its absence, nowadays it might even be easier just to use PCR to identify key segments of the 'Y' chromosome. That would certainly be more sensitive than looking for whole 'Y' chromosomes.

From the RapidDetect (http://rapiddetect.com/adulteration_test_products.html) website:

Gender cannot be tested either. As with age, there is a rumor that gender can be detected in urine, and is tested in medical insurance exams. It's another myth. It may be argued that a pregnancy test can be used to detect the gender of the urine provider, but the same test is used to detect prostate cancer in males.

Surely these companies know what they're talking about? If they could do it, it would be an added feature in sales promotions of their kits.

KarlGauss
12-30-2007, 04:21 PM
From the RapidDetect (http://rapiddetect.com/adulteration_test_products.html) website:



Surely these companies know what they're talking about? If they could do it, it would be an added feature in sales promotions of their kits.
This is probably referring to the routine "off the shelf" tests. Again, there is no do doubt whatsoever that gender can be determined on urine, or for that matter, on any human material so long as it contains some cells.

I suppose it's theoretically possible that urine may not contain sufficient cells to allow for gender testing. However, as you've probably heard and read about, it's now possible to do "DNA analysis" on absolutely miniscule quantities of tissue (made possible through PCR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCR)). It's not much of a stretch to say that even a single cell is enough to allow such testing. Hence, so long as there's even a few cells in the urine (and there will "always" be at least some cells there), then DNA testing, including gender determination, will be possible.

aldiboronti
12-30-2007, 04:50 PM
Thank you, KarlGauss, that makes it a lot clearer.

WhyNot
12-30-2007, 04:58 PM
As KarlGauss says, absolutely it can be done. Will it be done as part of a routine drug test for most employers? No way. Perhaps if the guy is working a high security clearance job in the Pentagon, but if he's tossing boxes around at the local Wal*Mart, they're not paying for anything more than the basic pot/coke/meth screen.

KarlGauss
12-30-2007, 05:10 PM
As KarlGauss says, absolutely it can be done. Will it be done as part of a routine drug test for most employers? No way. Perhaps if the guy is working a high security clearance job in the Pentagon, but if he's tossing boxes around at the local Wal*Mart, they're not paying for anything more than the basic pot/coke/meth screen.Nicely put.

Green Bean
12-30-2007, 10:27 PM
Thanks for the responses so far.

Just some additional details that I didn't want to muck up the OP with--given the ex's past drug use, there is a social service worker of some sort involved here. It was the social service person who noticed the child saying things that suggested that this might be going on. The social service person asked F if she had ever heard the child saying anything along those lines. And F was like "well, now that you mention it...." So the social service person is doing a little investigating to see if she can figure out if something is amiss. If so, then she is going to see about compelling drug testing that is less easily falsified.

But you can see why the "could they just test the urine sample for the age of the donor" question came up.

Cat Fight
12-30-2007, 11:15 PM
If the OP doesn't know, would the ex-husband? Have the social worker drop some gobbledygook about the employer testing for steroids by checking hormone levels, and that his should match those of a grown man. Unless she is against lying, like so many spoilsports. Sigh.

Joey P
12-30-2007, 11:24 PM
but if he's tossing boxes around at the local Wal*Mart, they're not paying for anything more than the basic pot/coke/meth screen.
Teeny tiny nitpick, it's probably a test for Marijuana, Cocaine, Amphetamines, Opiate/Opioid and Benzos.

Ruby
12-31-2007, 12:23 AM
"I'll pee back!" :pThanks for the giggle.

vetbridge
12-31-2007, 10:59 AM
I once taught a group of veterinary technicians. We were doing urinalysis, with each person looking at his/her own urine. One young lady couldn't figure out what she was seeing in the sediment of her sample. I looked, and explained that they were sperm. She couldn't understand how she could have sperm present in her sample, since she was a girl. After repeated gentle attempts to explain, a light bulb lit up over her head and she got it.

WhyNot
12-31-2007, 01:39 PM
I once taught a group of veterinary technicians. We were doing urinalysis, with each person looking at his/her own urine. One young lady couldn't figure out what she was seeing in the sediment of her sample. I looked, and explained that they were sperm. She couldn't understand how she could have sperm present in her sample, since she was a girl. After repeated gentle attempts to explain, a light bulb lit up over her head and she got it.
Eeeeew! Did the woman not wipe? I can't imagine having enough sperm lingering on my vuvla to, hours later, present "sediment" in a urine sample.

Or do you think she had just been in the broom closet with a classmate? Were they still swimmin'? :eek:

ParentalAdvisory
12-31-2007, 10:27 PM
After repeated gentle attempts to explain...

Would love to hear the explanation that she didn't get. Did you make gestures with your hands? lol

diggleblop
01-01-2008, 12:41 AM
Maybe the Ex should suggest a hair follicle drug screening.

vetbridge
01-02-2008, 09:01 AM
Eeeeew! Did the woman not wipe? I can't imagine having enough sperm lingering on my vuvla to, hours later, present "sediment" in a urine sample.

Or do you think she had just been in the broom closet with a classmate? Were they still swimmin'? :eek:
We did not share the sorta student/teacher relationship that would allow me to delve any deeper than I did. And, no, they were not motile. :eek:

WarmNPrickly
01-02-2008, 09:15 AM
I once taught a group of veterinary technicians. We were doing urinalysis, with each person looking at his/her own urine. One young lady couldn't figure out what she was seeing in the sediment of her sample. I looked, and explained that they were sperm. She couldn't understand how she could have sperm present in her sample, since she was a girl. After repeated gentle attempts to explain, a light bulb lit up over her head and she got it.

That took some balls to explain. ;)

Solfy
01-02-2008, 01:43 PM
Eeeeew! Did the woman not wipe? I can't imagine having enough sperm lingering on my vuvla to, hours later, present "sediment" in a urine sample.

Or do you think she had just been in the broom closet with a classmate? Were they still swimmin'? :eek:

I'm not googling right now for a cite, but there is a "drip back" effect that can happen up to several hours after intercourse wherein bodily fluids that had worked their way further in are released.
There was a study done to determine the number/nature of "return" sperm and how it related to amount of time between intercourse and the time of drip back. I remember feeling sorry for the women in the study having to collect and log the info.

And back on topic, if a workplace is sufficiently concerned about possible tampering, the urine tests can be done less privately. The workers comp doctor's office that my employer uses has no sink in the restroom (there is one immediately outside the door), and a sign instructing those being tested that they are not to flush. Collections are supervised, to a degree. (I have not been subjected to this variety of testing, instead being subject to random hair clipping screenings, which I assume are even harder to fake but probably more expensive that a pee dip.)

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