PDA

View Full Version : Are couples who weren't married in church living in sin?


pkbites
11-12-2000, 06:41 PM
My youngest goes to a private (religious) school. The spiritual class teacher told the class that if people are not married in a church, they are not married in the eyes of God and are going to hell. This seems to have upset him because my wife and I were married by a JP, so according to his teach we've been living in sin for the past 21 years.

I say bullshit! Doesn't the book of Romans give man certain govermental powers over himself, by the authority of God? I want to get this straight before I get in her face.

(for $5000 per semester per kid I think I'm entitled to bitch about whats being taught, especially if it's contrary to the Bible!)

Tristan
11-12-2000, 06:46 PM
Well, see, it all depends on what you view as a Sin. Me, and I'm willing to bet a lot of the folks on this board, don't feel that the bible is the be-all end-all source of what is and isn't sin.

My view: the only thing that is truly a sin is the intentional harming of someone else, without cause.

conclusion: no, you're not sinning. but to catholics, you are. go fig.....

pkbites
11-12-2000, 07:03 PM
I actually agree with your answer.

But I need passages from the Bible that will prove this holier than thou bitch wrong. I love using that book against people who thump it! Any help, folks??

Baker
11-12-2000, 07:54 PM
pkbites, I'm pretty devout but I don't think that a religious marriage is absolutely necessary, and I don't think most Protestant churches do either. In some you will find a short service(ceremony) for the blessing of a civil marriage, and so if the church refers to the first union as a "marriage" it must be okay. Not sure about chapter and verse but I will see if I can dig something up. And think of it this way, Jesus attended a marriage at which he performed his first miracle( the water into wine thing) He seemed to think it was legal and it certainly wasn't in a church! Theres' something good about having a religion where making WINE is considered a good thing, IMHO.

tygre
11-12-2000, 07:58 PM
Well, all of the things I can find in the Old Testament regarding marriage are of the "don't marry your siblings" type, and no mentions of ceremonies required, as far as I can find in a quick search.

Romans chapter 13 is what I think you would be interested in. Basically Paul says that we should obey the government since God is the one who created it.

I like to point out to ppl like your son's "teacher" that first and foremost Jesus preached tolerance - love thy neighbor as thyself - not condemnation. That usually shuts them up. :)

My husband and I were also married by a JP due to financial constraints and different religous backgrounds that made a church wedding difficult. The IRS says we are married, so I think that we are.

--tygre

cheezit
11-12-2000, 08:06 PM
Well, for what it's worth, I have read the Bible through at least twice and am on my way through it again. I have seen many references to marriage. They all say that a man and woman should be married but I can't remember ever reading that a man and woman had to be married in a church or by a minister for that matter.

If I were you, I would demand that the "teacher" show you the verses from the Bible that she gets this rubbish from.

Enderw24
11-12-2000, 08:24 PM
You could always say that Jews had been married outside the church for a good millenia or two before Christians even came on the scene...or does the Old Testement not count?

Opus1
11-12-2000, 11:22 PM
A curious thing about the Bible--it gives a specific divorce ritual, but not a marriage ritual. Nowhere are we told what people need to do to become married, although the distinction between wife and concubine implies that there must be some sort of ceremony done to make said distinction.

So, tell her that it's her duty to find a passage which condemns non-church marriages. That'll shut her up.

Your only problem would be if this is a Catholic school. They consider the word of the Pope authoritative as well as the Bible. So if some papal bull requires a church marriage, you're wrong regardless of what the Bible says.

Captain Amazing
11-13-2000, 12:02 AM
It's easy. First of all, you see if there's any reason you can't be married. (she's your sister, she's already married, she's divorced and you're a Kohen, etc), then, if everything is ok, you guys write up a Ketubah, you sign it in front of witnesses, and you're married.

You could ask her for a copy of her Ketubah. :)

zev_steinhardt
11-13-2000, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Enderw23
You could always say that Jews had been married outside the church for a good millenia or two before Christians even came on the scene...or does the Old Testement not count?

Darn it Enderw23, I was just going to bring up the fact that I wasn't married in a church!

[off topic aside]
I'm reading your book again and enjoying it just as much as I did the first time (which was very much).
[/off topic aside]

Zev Steinhardt

McKenna
11-13-2000, 12:06 AM
I do feel sorry for the OP's little boy--nobody wants to hear that their parents are going to Hell! Well, maybe when they're teenagers...

I'm Catholic and I certainly don't remember hearing much about it one way or another. If you got married by a priest, imam, JP or rabbi it was fine, in the sense that you were able to be called husband and wife by everybody and the kids were perfectly legitimate. Render unto Caesar and all that. I've got an uncle married by just a JP and my aunt is totally his wife to me and also to my very strict old-time Catholic grandfather. But, if you're in the Church, you really are expected to undergo the ceremony, which is also a statement to your family and friends as well as God that you're willing to stand up with this person and pledge in front of them all. I know someone who married with a JP so her husband would get an immigration status that meant he wouldn't have to rush back to Italy at the end of the month, but she considered the "real" wedding as the big church one. And Italian weddings are worth waiting for!

That said, I think the Church may have a problem with somebody who showed up with a new baby and wanted it baptized when they (the parents) had totally foregone a church wedding and/or did not currently belong to or go to a church of any kind. But I'm not sure. And even if the priest turned them down politely, he'd be calling them Mr. and Mrs. as he did so.

Now, I myself may have a problem with people who went out on the beach and toasted the Moon Goddess with some vino and came back saying, "OK, She's married us, where's our tax breaks?" but that's about it. And yes, I've been to a pagan handfasting. But they also had a UU minister and a marriage license duly filed at City Hall.

"Marriage is a sacrament, which is just a way to say
That a very private thing is done in a very public way."
--From a song entitled, "My Daughter is Marrying an Idiot!", I DO! I DO!, Jones & Schmidt

manhattan
11-13-2000, 09:58 AM
Oh, come on folks.

The General Questions answer to this question is "it depends on what your church says, or if you don't belong to a church, upon your own interpretation of what God wants you to do."

Anything else, like "should it be considered living in sin" or "is the Catholic church right" would be a Great Debate.

Meephead
11-13-2000, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Opus1
So, tell her that it's her duty to find a passage which condemns non-church marriages. That'll shut her up.


I am with Opus1 on that. It might be a good time to talk to the Principal at the school to let them know what is going on. I am not a parent, but I can imagine that the teacher has put you in a very bad position and possibly caused some emotional and trust problems for your kid, too. What kind of teaching style is that? The school needs to know.

Talk to the Principal first before you talk to the teacher so that they aren't buildig a case against you befor you even start.

Regardless of your religious views, I know you want to raise a healthy, happy child, and this teacher is throwing a wrench in the works, IMHO. If the school doesn't want to do anything about it, then, since this is a private school, maybe you would want to remove your child and therefore your support for the school?

Eve
11-13-2000, 11:13 AM
I'm with Meep on this—yank your kid out of that so-called "school" before any further damage is done to his poor brain-pan.

Arken
11-13-2000, 11:18 AM
Are couples who weren't married in church living in sin?

Yes, and we're damn proud of it too.

toadspittle
11-13-2000, 11:37 AM
What type of religious school is it, pk? The denomination might help us determine whether we need to go to just the Bible or some other writings (i.e., Papal Bulls).

MadHatter
11-13-2000, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by manhattan
Oh, come on folks.

The General Questions answer to this question is "it depends on what your church says, or if you don't belong to a church, upon your own interpretation of what God wants you to do."

Anything else, like "should it be considered living in sin" or "is the Catholic church right" would be a Great Debate.

How does this one differ from mine which got moved to GD?

jmullaney
11-13-2000, 12:03 PM
Actually, Jesus abolished marriage in Luke 20 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=LUKE+20:34-35&language=english&version=RSV&showfn=on)[quote]And Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage; but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage[/url]

if that helps... (sorry, manhattan -- but pk did ask for Bible verses to help her case)

manhattan
11-13-2000, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by MadHatter

How does this one differ from mine which got moved to GD?

Well, the main difference is that I'm not going to ban the OP. Because you continually question my moderating here in GQ instead of the Pit where it belongs, however, I am going to ban you.

Hope this helps.

barker
11-13-2000, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by jmullaney
Actually, Jesus abolished marriage in Luke 20

This actualy deals with the concept of marriage in the afterlife (after resurrection). In no way did it abolish marriage on earth.

(sorry manhattan, but I had to refute the statement made.)

Indiana Jones
11-13-2000, 01:19 PM
My father is a nondenominational Protestant minister. He has performed marriage ceremonies not only in churches, but also outside, in someone's living room, and the lobby of a resort hotel. The location of a marriage ceremony does not matter, what is important about it is the public announcement of your intentions.

cher3
11-13-2000, 01:37 PM
I've mentioned this in other threads, but the Catholic church does, in fact, consider civil marriage or any ceremony performed by anyone other than a Catholic priest to be inadequate. My husband was a lapsed Catholic and wanted to return to the church as a full member. We were required to have a Catholic ceremony even though we had been married 15 years before in a Presbyterian church by an ordained minister--white gown, flowers, tuxedo, cake, the whole schmear. If we had not done this my husband would not have been permitted to participate in the Eucharist.

AWB
11-13-2000, 02:01 PM
My wife and I were married in a Congregational church (which is descended from the Puritans, BTW). Our minister explained that in the Congregational church, marriage was originally seen as a civil matter that the church really had no business in. But its members wanted to have the lavish ceremonies that their Catholic neighbors were having. So they officiated at cermonies that were as lavish as the participants wanted. But marriage remained a covenant between the couple and God. In the Catholic church, it is a sacrament, which makes it holy.

Wandering Pilgrim
11-13-2000, 02:27 PM
First of all I just want to point out,I am a Bible believing Christian and want to say that if anyone ever says to you that such a such thing is in the bible, have them point it out to you,chapter and verse...Until they do than it is all hogwash. Now on the topic of hogwash...It says nothing in the bible about being married in the church. For one thing,when scripture mentions the church it is referring to the congregation (the people)not the building. I have two friends who are also as I am (Christian) and they were married before a JP, so no you are not in sin if this is how you were married. It is important to be married before God and to do it legally...it is also good to have your friends and family there to share in such a beautiful moment that is created by God. I find there are tons of misconceptions of what the bible says like for example, God help those who helps themselves, no such verse in the bible at all. So don't believe all you hear to be in the bible lots or people try to twist the truth of scripture to fit into their little of view of what they believe to be correct. Well I will stop here before I turn this into a book. I hope I helped a little.

jmullaney
11-13-2000, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by cher3
I've mentioned this in other threads, but the Catholic church does, in fact, consider civil marriage or any ceremony performed by anyone other than a Catholic priest to be inadequate.

That is not officially true. Although marriage is encouraged in a church, this is not an absolute. Nor is the ceremony performed in the strictest sense by anyone other than the two people involved.

See:
http://christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/matri.html#MARRIAGE
http://christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/matri.html#CELEBRATION
http://christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/matri.html#CONSENT

1623. "In the Latin Church, it is ordinarily understood that the spouses, as
ministers of Christ's grace, mutually confer upon each other the sacrament of
Matrimony by expressing their consent before the Church. In the Eastern
liturgies the minister of this sacrament (which is called 'Crowning') is the priest
or bishop who, after receiving the mutual consent of the spouses, successively
crowns the bridegroom and the bride as a sign of the MARRIAGE covenant."


1630. "The priest (or deacon) who assists at the celebration of a MARRIAGE
receives the consent of the spouses in the name of the Church and gives the
blessing of the Church. The presence of the Church's minister (and also of the
witnesses) visibly expresses the fact that MARRIAGE is an ecclesial reality. "

1631. "This is the reason why the Church normally requires that the faithful
contract MARRIAGE according to the ecclesiastical form. Several reasons
converge to explain this requirement:[Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1813-1816;
CIC, can. 1108.]
- Sacramental MARRIAGE is a liturgical act. It is therefore appropriate that it
should be celebrated in the public liturgy of the Church;
- MARRIAGE introduces one into an ecclesial order, and creates rights and
duties in the Church between the spouses and towards their children; - Since
MARRIAGE is a state of life in the Church, certainty about it is necessary
(hence the obligation to have witnesses);
- The public character of the consent protects the 'I do' once given and helps
the spouses remain faithful to it."

pkbites
11-13-2000, 04:13 PM
I should have mentioned this is in fact a catholic school.
I am not catholic, nor were any of my relatives so I'm rather ignorant of their doctrin.My wife is a "non practicing" catholic. My son (15 year old sophomore) is only required to take 1 spiritual class per year, and this is the first teacher to be contoversial, so I'm not yanking him out. (The school is otherwise excellent.) My other 2 kids also went to this school (both graduated) with no problems.(:rolleyes: well, no problems caused by the teacher. My oldest almost got deported and they thought the only way my daughter would ever get out of school is if they burned the sonovabitch down.) I sent my kids to a religious school so they wouldn't be indoctrinated by the lies of public schools (like evolution). But telling them their parents are going to hell? That's just mean!

Bricker
11-13-2000, 04:16 PM
I express no opinion about the various Protestant faiths.

However, if this is a Roman Catholic school, then the advice propounded by the teacher is, at best, incomplete - and at worst, disastrously wrong.

To sum up: in Roman Catholicism, there is no requirement to get married "in a church," but there is a requirement to observe the laws of the Church concerning marriage - in fact, this is one of six precepts of the Church. So while you'd be wrong to say you must be married in a church, you'd be right to say you must be married in the eyes of the church.

A couple married in a civil ceremony only is not married according to the laws of the Church. However, there is no rule that requires an elaborate wedding with gowns and flower girls. The Church may simply bless the union. This indicates that the Church has determined that no impediments, such as a previous marriage, exist.

A Church-sanctioned wedding normally takes place in the parish of either party, or, in the case of a mixed marriage, in the parish of the Catholic party. Dispensations from these requirements are common, as is a priest presiding along with a minister or rabbi.

In short: a marriage conducted by a justice of the peace, in Roman Catholic tradition, is insufficient to qualify as a sacramental marriage, and since failing to obey the laws of the Church concerning marriage is a sin, one could be said to be living in sin.

However, there is no requirement to be married "in a church."

- Rick

cher3
11-13-2000, 04:28 PM
I hate to alarm you pkbites, but the Catholic Church doesn't consider evolutionary theory to be antithetical to its teachings. If you want to protect your kids from science, you'll have to find another denomination.

jmullaney
11-13-2000, 04:51 PM
cher3!!! I know we are supposed to be fighting ignorance, but let's not cut off our nose to spite our face here! :D

manhattan
11-13-2000, 05:02 PM
OK. Factual part of the OP is asked and answered.

I'll shoot y'all off to Great Debates for the rest of it.

Polycarp
11-13-2000, 05:44 PM
Great and insightful answers. Which reduces me to having to perpetrate a hijack of sorts:

The answer to the OP is No. Sin is a wilderness in the Sinai Peninsula of Egypt, which the Children of Israel skirted during the Exodus. Very few people live there. Consult the maps in the back of most Bibles for the location.

It should be pointed out, however, that the converse of the OP is valid. Since most inhabitants of Sin are Moslems, vanishingly few of them were married in church.

tracer
11-13-2000, 06:27 PM
Captain Amazing wrote:

You could ask her for a copy of her Ketubah. :)
The last time I showed someone my Ketubah in public, I was arrested for indecent exposure.

The Ryan
11-13-2000, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by pkbites
I sent my kids to a religious school so they wouldn't be indoctrinated by the lies of public schools (like evolution).
Lies?!? It's one thing to doubt evolution, but to call it lies? Do you really think that evolutionists are intentionally misleading people?

doreen
11-13-2000, 08:53 PM
A Church-sanctioned wedding normally takes place in the parish of either party, or, in the case of a mixed marriage, in the parish of the Catholic party. Dispensations from these requirements are common, as is a priest presiding along with a minister or rabbi.

In short: a marriage conducted by a justice of the peace, in Roman Catholic tradition, is insufficient to qualify as a sacramental marriage, and since failing to obey the laws of the Church concerning marriage is a sin, one could be said to be living in sin.


Actually, it's a little more liberal than this. In the case of an interfaith wedding,under certain circumstances the bishop can permit a Catholic to marry in a ceremony of a different faith or even in a secular ceremony conducted by a public official.But I think that's a little too detailed to expect it to be covered in a 15 year old's religion class, especially since I suspect "in a church" is not a direct quote ( "in the Church" is more likely,in my opinion ) and I have a feeling the "going to hell" was an inference on someone's part

pk bites - Like others have said, Catholicism has no problem with evolution (in fact, I first heard of it in a Catholic school), but one of the main purposes (if not the main purpose)of a religious school is indoctrination into that religion

I assume that even though your wife is a non-practicing Catholic, you are not raising your children to be Catholic.If they attend a Catholic school, they have likely been taught that any number of things are sins ( missing Mass without a good reason, not obeying the rules of fast and abstinence,not making your Easter duty, etc ) that non-Catholics generally don't believe to be sinful.Have you never explained to them that they are not Catholic and what they are taught at school regarding religion is not necessarily what your family believes ? I don't think I would ever send my children to a different religion's school, but if I did, I would let them know that our religion is different,and while they need to answer test questions according to what's taught in school,they needn't believe it if it conflicted with our beliefs.

Guinastasia
11-14-2000, 03:55 PM
Then why, if the church simply has to bless the union, does the RCC not allow outdoor ceremonies-that it must be inside the church?

Bricker
11-14-2000, 04:24 PM
I said:A Church-sanctioned wedding normally takes place in the parish of either party, or, in the case of a mixed marriage, in the parish of the Catholic party. Dispensations from these requirements are common, as is a priest presiding along with a minister or rabbi.

In short: a marriage conducted by a justice of the peace, in Roman Catholic tradition, is insufficient to qualify as a sacramental marriage, and since failing to obey the laws of the Church concerning marriage is a sin, one could be said to be living in sin.

Doreen said:
Actually, it's a little more liberal than this. In the case of an interfaith wedding,under certain circumstances the bishop can permit a Catholic to marry in a ceremony of a different faith or even in a secular ceremony conducted by a public official.But I think that's a little too detailed to expect it to be covered in a 15 year old's religion class, especially since I suspect "in a church" is not a direct quote ( "in the Church" is more likely,in my opinion ) and I have a feeling the "going to hell" was an inference on someone's part

Er... yes, I know. That's why I said "Dispensations from these requirements are common."

- Rick

pkbites
11-14-2000, 05:44 PM
This particular school does not teach evolution as fact, but that it is a false theory. I checked this out long ago before sending my oldest pup. As far as the rest of the indoctrination, students are not required to attend mass, and are only required to take 1 spiritual class per year.
I was aware that many catholic (and other religious schools) teach evolution, but this one as a rule does not.

Kyberneticist
11-14-2000, 06:20 PM
Pkbites, I hope none of your children are trying to get a degree in the bio sciences...

This school doesn't cover evolutionary theory? What on earth is it accredited in?

Monty
11-14-2000, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by toadspittle
What type of religious school is it, pk? The denomination might help us determine whether we need to go to just the Bible or some other writings (i.e., Papal Bulls).

The school teacher, for sure, is intolerant. The denomination, if it's a Catholic school, isn't. But the OP, given his comment about evolution fits right in with the teacher!

SSgtBaloo
11-15-2000, 03:29 AM
The following is in no way to be construed as a serious answer.[/quote]The Pope (as paraphrased by the late Sam Kinneson): "NO! Next!"

Philosopher: "What is sin?"

Me: "If they're married to each other, then no."

~~Baloo

SSgtBaloo
11-15-2000, 03:44 AM
In my own opinion, a couple can be married in the sight of G-d even if they have not had a civil or religious ceremony. Their intent is all that matters. Of course, if you're not married according to the rules established by the secular authorities, you will not be afforded the benefits of marriage extended by them (tax breaks, inheritance laws, etc.) If you're a member of a religion that does not recognize the legitimacy of your marriage, they may also choose to refuse certain benefits otherwise extended to married members. Of course, G-d is not subordinate to secular or religious authorities, and is not bound by their rulings. The main purpose of civil or religious marriage ceremonies is to declare publicly before the (religious and/or secular) community that:[list=A] You are, in fact, married, and

you intend to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities to the community regarding this marriage, and

you rightfully claim whatever benefits the community affords married couples.[/list=A]Makes sense? Or am I too tired to be coherent?

~~Baloo

Eve
11-15-2000, 11:18 AM
"I sent my kids to a religious school so they wouldn't be indoctrinated by the lies of public schools (like evolution)."

—Mmm-hmmm . . . Okaaaay . . . [backing slowly toward door]

Moirai
11-15-2000, 12:05 PM
pk, I was actually going to respond seriously to your OP, but then I read your evolution comments.

I have to ask- Why, if "most" Catholic institutions teach about evolution, does this school view it as a "false theory?"

You hardly hear any good stories about renegade Catholics anymore. I always picture nuns on motorcycles or some such nonsense :)

Moirai
11-15-2000, 12:10 PM
Wow, what an interesting thing. Does it seem strange to anyone else that pk has these feelings about evolution, but in the profile says interests are "beer, motorcycles, guns, freedom & liberty?"

Trippy, never woulda' thunk it.

Welfy
11-15-2000, 05:58 PM
I've mentioned this in other threads, but the Catholic church does, in fact, consider civil marriage or any ceremony performed by anyone other than a Catholic priest to be inadequate.

My Catholic friend also says that God doesn't actually forgive me because I don't go to Confession and have a priest to intervene (I'm Presbyterian), so go fig. :rolleyes:

Ranma
11-15-2000, 06:13 PM
Ok PK, I'm not going to pound on you like I intended(about your quote: ... be indoctrinated by the lies of public schools...), and like the others did, instead I'll ask you on what belief (or proof) can you make such a statement?

tomndebb
11-15-2000, 07:42 PM
My Catholic friend also says that God doesn't actually forgive me because I don't go to Confession and have a priest to intervene (I'm Presbyterian), so go fig.

Erin, your friend is as ignorant of her Catholic tradition and doctrine as a lot of other people are. I'm not going to hijack this thread over the Sacrament of Confession/Penance/Reconciliation, (it's been addressed in other threads), but she is simply wrong.

pkbites
11-15-2000, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by Ranma
Ok PK, I'm not going to pound on you like I intended(about your quote: ... be indoctrinated by the lies of public schools...), and like the others did, instead I'll ask you on what belief (or proof) can you make such a statement?


Statement about what? About what lies I don't want my kids being taught, or about why I believe them to be lies? Public schools teach that "alternative lifestyles" are normal & healthy, it's ok for teens to engage in sexual behavior, evolution theories, and the total ban on God as if he doesn't exist. I consider all these things to be lies and I don't want my children indoctrinated by them. I don't have to justify why I believe these things to be lies, I'm entitled to my beliefs without explination. Was a catholic school the best option? NO! But it was the best option I could afford for 3 kids in a row. Some of the other private schools and academies cost twice as much. Also, this school doesn't tolerate the disruptive behavior that is so prevelent in Milwaukees public schools. All in all, it's a real good school. Now the question is, am I going to hell for not being married in church, and if so where does the bible say this?

Kyberneticist
11-15-2000, 10:07 PM
pkbites, you are being disingenuous. If you don't want to answer his statement, say so. I think though, that your original question has been pretty thoroughly answered. Surely there is no harm (this being great debates after all) in people examining wrong headed and inflamatory statements on your part?

SSgtBaloo
11-16-2000, 02:59 AM
Quote edited to remove nonessential text.[/quote]Originally posted by Kyberneticist
Surely there is no harm in people examining wrong headed and inflamatory statements on your part?

Kyberneticist: Your phrasing presumes you believe yourself to be right-headed and non-inflamatory, yet the words themselves have the opposite effect. The above declaration is itself wrongheaded and inflamatory. Were it phrased in less damning terms, it would be neither. Putting your question in such a provocative form is itself disingenuous and hypocritical. Cut it out.[/hijack]

~~Baloo

Kyberneticist
11-16-2000, 08:01 AM
It was intended to be so. But when his comments about schools (horrors!) teaching that "alternative lifestyles" as being normal, and evolution "lies" convinced me that he is close-minded. It also suggests some level of bigotry towards the gay community. Both of those pissed me off. I don't like to think of people raising children along the same lines.

I feel this is a true statement.
His claims are inflammatory.
Calling evolution lies, then trying to jump back to the nature of marriage is close to being a troll. His wanting God in public schools and sex education and acceptence of gays as normal I would also place in that category.

His claims are wrong headed.
I feel all these statements he made are wrong. I did not back up my claim, I was more interested in snarling at that post. But I'm sure we will have plenty of feedback on it soon. Or, he can visit http://talkorigins.org and countless threads on evolution, homosexuality, and church-state separation here.

Finally, while I admit to having gotten angry, and responded in kind to statements that I categorized (rightly) as inflammatory, I think I was relatively restrained.
Furthermore, while I think he was avoiding the question, I spoke quite frankly as to my opinion. Therefore I think you misused the word "disingenuous".

Kyberneticist
11-16-2000, 08:04 AM
That's what happens when I get excited. No proof reading.
But when=But while (yes, starting with But is iffy)
. Is=, is

Eve
11-16-2000, 09:01 AM
Well, I certainly wouldn't want MY children going to any school that taught lies like "alternative lifestyles" are abnormal & unhealthy, sex is evil and dirty, evolution is only a theory, and God exists!

Kyberneticist
11-16-2000, 09:11 AM
*blush*
er
acceptance=unacceptance

This could go on for a while. So I am going to refrain from further proofing and go to work.

pkbites
11-16-2000, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Kyberneticist
...Both of those pissed me off. I don't like to think of people raising children along the same lines.



These are not your children. I will raise my kids the way I see fit, and I will defend your right to raise your kids the way you see fit. I was not trying to troll, I was simply stating why I didn't want my offspring going to public school. I refuse to get into an argument over evolution. The whole thing is utter nonsense to me, and if I want my kids to be taught that the story of man coming from apes is a lie, then I will teach them that. If they grow up to decide I was wrong, so be it. But when they are young and living under my roof I am going to have them taught the things I want. And when someone tells my child an untruth (like couples who weren't married in church are going to hell) I get ticked.

pkbites
11-16-2000, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Eve
Well, I certainly wouldn't want MY children going to any school that taught lies like "alternative lifestyles" are abnormal & unhealthy, sex is evil and dirty, evolution is only a theory, and God exists!


Then by all means, do not send your kids to a school that would do this. I defend your right to raise your kids the way you want just as you should defend my right to do the same. Oh, and where did I say sex is evil and dirty??? I just don't think children should be told that it's ok for them to be sexually active. Sex is an adult activity, just as drinking, smoking, and gambling are. You're not pushing those on your young'uns are you?

Manda JO
11-16-2000, 08:06 PM
And when someone tells my child an untruth (like couples who weren't married in church are going to hell) I get ticked.

See, the problem here is that it is not at all clear that this is an untruth by the standards of the religion that sponsors the school you are sending your children to. You keep asking for a bibblical passage, which is, if I may say so, a very Protestant way of approaching the question. Catholosism has never embraced the doctrine of sola scriptura, and holds many things to be sinful that are not explicitly covered in the bible. Now, the experiences of several posters have indicated that the RCC does, indeed, hold the position that a JP marrage is not a suitable substitute for being married by the church. Since Tomndeb has not corrected these people and he is reading the thread, we have to assume that this is in fact the RCC's position.

Now, we can not tell you whether or not your child's teacher was right or wrong in any sort of objective sense--none of us have hard empirical evidence on this one. All we can tell you is whether or not her statement is in line with the beliefs of the orginization she represents. The answer to that question is that no, she isn't wrong. So you've no right to be ticked.

You of course have every right to explain to your child that his teacher is a member of a diifferent faith that your own, and this is one place where your beliefs diverge from hers. But is not right to claim she has made a mistake or is ignorant of the "real" truth.

tomndebb
11-16-2000, 10:53 PM
Since Tomndeb has not corrected these people

Yeeesh! When did I become an authority?

For the record, I doubt that I am better informed on Catholicism than Bricker (who posted here) or Moriah (who has not posted in a while). My views are close enough to the ones Bricker posted that I saw no need to add anything, here.
(The RCC would probably hold that a Catholic was in need of some soul-searching if s/he married "without benefit of clergy," but it is ludicrous to suppose that the RCC holds non-Catholics to the same rules of Catholicism--and, as Bricker and others have noted, in the eyes of the RCC, the couple are the ministers of the Sacrament to each other.)

I'm afraid I do find it humorous that pkbites would send his kids to Catholic school and not expect them to get a fair amount of Catholic indoctrination. If the teacher was assuming an all-Catholic classroom, then Catholic parents who have not had their marriage solemnized and recorded within the Church are, as Bricker noted, in violation of sixth of the (old) 6 Laws of the Church (enumerated in the Baltimore Catechism) and could be considered (from a strictly Catholic perspective) to be "living in sin." However, those rules have been reconsidered quite a bit in the last 35 years and would never apply to a non-Catholic, in any event.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: [email protected]

Send comments about this website to:

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Publishers - interested in subscribing to the Straight Dope?
Write to: [email protected].

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

Best Topics: painful fingertips unisom overdose fatal visible fart what no mean ghost email account dechu japanese american desires spider pooping vertical hold tv bob's burgers realistic noah daughters permanently darken skin diesel furnace the partner grisham outdoor bleach oily pizza execution by drowning maryland roll holden caulfield gay joe piscopo bodybuilder abbreviation for pages paralegal reddit wart hair grandaire vs carrier tanzanite hardness long f hello operator gas pump slow monovision eyeglasses puredee com is intervention real nair beard lifeco environmental scam gold quarter dollar 2000 why did people wear capes ball drop for central time zone how much does poop weigh return new jersey license plates opposite of deus ex machina nfl prime time music plenty of fish fucking does walgreens do eye exams pink floyd meat pudding how good was chuck norris xarelto lawsuit commercial actress can i reuse boxes for shipping how many ounces is an average chicken breast margaret avery the color purple when does facial hair stop developing people with no feet do hawks eat rabbits is futurama a good show recipes using chili sauce what happened to killer bee why do some people capitalize every word why does match.com say im online what does a long island iced tea taste like mopery with intent to creep sizzling sound in throat what is heart of palm what do police detectives wear test drive a car without plates why do abandoned buildings decay why are state capitals not the largest cities how to tell if it is a redox reaction can leather jackets be altered robert hanssen wife bonnie