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View Full Version : Fuck you Ford. $120 for a new key?


NurseCarmen
12-15-2008, 10:32 PM
I just bought a used truck, and it only had one key. So I went to the local hardware store to get a copy made. No can do said Mr. Key makin' man, this has a chip in it, you have to go to the dealership. Okay, I can make it after work. How much could it be? So I go to the service center, and the guy at the counter says since I don't have two copies of the key, the truck has to be reprogrammed!??! So I go out to the service bay, and after being ignored for the obligatory 15 minutes I get the pleasure of talking to the service ass who oh-so-condescendingly lets me know that the reprogramming will take at least an hour at $85 per, and that doesn't include the price of the key.

What a fucking scam.

bannerrefugee
12-15-2008, 10:38 PM
Mine was 50 for the standard or 125 for the fancy at the dealership. It is a 15 year old BMW.

Jeff
12-15-2008, 10:41 PM
I save that much every year on my insurance for having an anti-theft device. You might consider looking into that, if you haven't already.

Musicat
12-15-2008, 10:57 PM
Now I know why the car manufacturers are in trouble -- they treat customers like SOBs.

Hockey Monkey
12-15-2008, 11:11 PM
NurseCarmen, did you buy the truck at that dealership? If not call another Ford dealership and ask for the service manager. Tell him that you have been quoted a price for getting a key made for your (insert year, make and model here) and you thought it was a bit high. Ask how much they charge for it. Tell him that you bought the truck elsewhere but would like to have the truck serviced at a dealership if you are treated right. Try to leverage your future business.

If you did buy the truck there, call your salesperson and see if you can get him to give it to you or get it at a reduced price.

We do have some keys at our dealership (not Ford) that cost us $85 and up just for the key. These are indeed the chipped keys. It should take no more than 15-20 minutes to program a key. But $100 for a chipped key is not unusual. I hate you got treated badly though.

kaylasdad99
12-15-2008, 11:24 PM
Little pricey, yeah. But I'm not buying the line that they have to re-program the truck. I lost the key to my 2002 Windstar in September, and had a mobile locksmith come out and make me a new one on the spot. When I found the key several weeks later, it still worked.

spinky
12-16-2008, 01:23 AM
I bought a "certified pre-owned", yadda yadda, (used car) BMW about 5 years ago, and it came with two sets of keys with microchips. I've used one set for all these years, and the other set has been in the kitchen drawer as a backup. Recently, I had occasion to need the backup set and found that they're the keys to the wrong car. It's not that the chip isn't programmed, it's that the physical key is wrong; it won't even turn in the lock. I called the dealer and I can't remember how much it was going to cost to get new ones, but it was enough to make me say I'll wait until I really can't find my main set (as opposed to my wife just taking them to work with her accidentally). And of course, there's no way they still have the correct set of keys sitting around 5 years later. Grrr.

UnwrittenNocturne
12-16-2008, 04:17 AM
Try it sometime with a VW - we ended up paying some $800. Absolute refusal from the dealership to do anything without reprogramming the car. Funnily enough it worked just fucking fine until we lost the existing key. Wankers

dbuzman
12-16-2008, 05:11 AM
My Dodge Neon has keys with chips in them. They cost me around $13.00 for a new programmed one. Why do the ones from other manufacturers cost so much?

Edit: I just realized in the op most of the cost appears to be labor. The dealership I got mine at doesn't charge me labor for programming the key, just the key itself.

Mighty_Girl
12-16-2008, 06:10 AM
I paid about as much for my CRV key in the Dominican Republic. It didnīt take more than 20 mins. though, and part of that was waiting.

LouisB
12-16-2008, 06:12 AM
I had to replace a key for my Hyundai; IIRC, it cost me close to $150.00 total. It was like $75.00 for the key and $75.00 labor for the reprogramming, which took all of ten minutes. As I drove away, I could all but hear the service writer, the parts guy, and the mechanic laughing. That has been the only really negative experience I've had with that car but it completely changed my opinion of Hyundai.

Our Scion Sa doesn't have the chip key, which I don't find particularly annoying, and they gave us three keys when we bought it, just in case we lost one.

The Tao's Revenge
12-16-2008, 07:28 AM
That's outragious! This kind of shit should be illegal.

What the hell are doing that takes an hour of labor? It's just clear extortion from shit faced scum bag dealers.

Zulema
12-16-2008, 07:32 AM
Look on ebay. I have a GM but I just got the keys for under 10 dollars and on my car all the reprogramming is is putting the new key in the car right after starting the car with your current key. The directions should be in your owners manual but my key came with instructions.

All you have to do is get it cut at any key place.

lieu
12-16-2008, 07:49 AM
Yep, went through that awhile back for an import. It was $350. For shame.

Santo Rugger
12-16-2008, 07:53 AM
My Dodge requires two working keys to reprogram a third, and it's only slightly more complicated than just putting the new key in after using the existing one.

bucketybuck
12-16-2008, 08:54 AM
Former service advisor for Ford, Landrover and Mercedes checking in.

The fact that keys NEED to be reprogrammed to the vehicle is not the fault of the dealer. Vehicles today have an increasing amount of software and electronics, and the ignition system is just another part of that. Keys no longer just turn in an ignition barrel, they also send and recieve vehicle specific data from the relevent control units in the vehicle itself. For the same reason you would not want the same cut of key to start any Range Rover, so you cannot have the same programming codes on every key produced. Ergo, they need to be programmed to the vehicle.

The process of programming keys is often quoted as a "ten minute" job, but this is not always the case. Generally the technician hooks the vehice up to the required computer terminals, and runs the required programs to align the key to the vehicle. It is extremely common that this program will need to be repeated multiple times. Why? It will take a better electrician than me to answer that question, but anything involving those control units can be very twitchy. So in my experience, I have seen keys programmed in 10 minutes, and keys that took over an hour (Mercedes Vito vans were particularly annoying IME).

In any workshop I worked, we set a fixed fee for reprogramming keys, generally set at about one hours usual labour rate. Bear in mind that most dealerships will charge you for the first hour regardless of why the car is there (for justifiable reasons). Also bear in mind that the reprogramming still requires an trained dealer techician. You are paying for his expertise, whether it is for programming a key, or for repairing problems in the gearbox or instrument cluster.

As to the price of the physical key itself, I believe that is fixed by the manufacturer. I dont believe any dealership makes much profit on them, and I do know that the cost price of the key has rocketed in the past few years.

A common situation I faced was a customer who would buy a key from our parts department, then indicate total outrage that we in service would be charging more money if he wanted it programmed. Sorry sir, but if you bought brake pads, would you expect us to fit them for free? If you bought a steering rack, should the fitting be free? Programming keys is an equivalent situation, however much you might protest otherwise.

To anybody complaining about the cost of programming keys, do you have any idea how much the software costs just to be able to do that programmng? I wont make up any numbers, but it aint two bits for damn sure.

Little Plastic Ninja
12-16-2008, 09:02 AM
It's a shame my usual repair facility probably doesn't have one of those machines. They're just a mechanic, not a dealership.

I say it's a shame because they don't charge an hour's labor for 15-20 minutes. They sometimes quote an hour's labor, but if it sincerely takes 15-20 minutes, they charge for 15-20 minutes.

That said, I'm really not at all surprised by the OP's situation. Chipped keys have been around for a while, and $150 is a fifth of what I've heard some people paying for replacements -- of course, the insanely high prices I remember were for lost Lexus keys in the 90s. I don't think the keys for my new Focus are chipped, but I do know that my mother does not have a physical metal key-shaped key for her Camry: she has a keyfob with a few buttons that looks like a sleeker version of the thing that unlocks my door from across a parking lot. It's very fancy. It's probably ridiculously expensive to replace. Luckily, Mom is not the sort to lose her keys.

Black Sunshine
12-16-2008, 09:11 AM
That is such bullshit. I thought I'd lost my keys permanently (long story) last summer, and Ford was going to charge me $200 to make a new one. I found them, and keep meaning to get a spare one made when I have the extra $100 they say it'll cost. Yeah. Like that's ever going to happen.

Couldn't they just make one without the chip so I can open my door if I lock my keys in the car? That's what I'm most worried about. I wouldn't even need it to start the car.

Jayn_Newell
12-16-2008, 09:12 AM
I do know that my mother does not have a physical metal key-shaped key for her Camry: she has a keyfob with a few buttons that looks like a sleeker version of the thing that unlocks my door from across a parking lot.Actually, if hers is like mine, there's a physical key hidden inside the fob (I'm guessing in case you decide to turn the smartkey system off). The size of it makes it easier to find my keys, which is a bit ironic since I don't have to take it out of my purse to use the car.

bucketybuck
12-16-2008, 09:36 AM
That is such bullshit. I thought I'd lost my keys permanently (long story) last summer, and Ford was going to charge me $200 to make a new one. I found them, and keep meaning to get a spare one made when I have the extra $100 they say it'll cost. Yeah. Like that's ever going to happen.

Couldn't they just make one without the chip so I can open my door if I lock my keys in the car? That's what I'm most worried about. I wouldn't even need it to start the car.

A lot of the Fords we sold had one programmed key, with the "spare" key being a simple physical metal key without a chip in it. (Not particularly relevant in this case I suppose). But I do know it was quite common to get new keys without the chip for just the use you describe.

Actually some of these blank keys could then be retro- fitted with chips at a later date, or the chips simply switched between keys as one got worn over time.

I suspect however that this will simply not be an option for most keys in the future.

Omegaman
12-16-2008, 09:41 AM
Couldn't they just make one without the chip so I can open my door if I lock my keys in the car? That's what I'm most worried about. I wouldn't even need it to start the car.


Yes they can. Any correctly coded key will open the door, only the chip key will interface with the ignition.

spifflog
12-16-2008, 09:43 AM
I have a 98 ford mustang and I got a new key at the local mall. I think the dealership is full of crap.

Same deal, it has a chip in it. The mall put my old key in a reader there ($10) charge, and the got the new key made for another $75 bones. A complete screw job at $85, but still a little less.

brewha
12-16-2008, 10:06 AM
Oh, how I love my Jeep. Sure it's 10 yrs old and has 160,000 miles. But it's paid for, it runs great, everything works, has no rust, and I just bought a replacement key at Fleet Farm for $2.10

I'm driving this sucker til she won't drive no more.

mailman
12-16-2008, 10:07 AM
My wife's van has a key with a chip in it, and we lost the spare. It's a Chevy, but we got the same sort of estimate from the dealership. I went to a local lock and key shop and sat there while he made the key for me. He first had to look up the key in some database, then make a blank which he checked to see if it would actually start the car. (It did, but with no chip inside the car turns itself off automatically after a minute or two.) Then he had to find the right key blank with the right sort of chip, and finally cut the key. Total time spent by the one guy: about fifteen minutes. Total cost to me: about forty bucks.

Muffin
12-16-2008, 10:32 AM
Try it sometime with a VW - we ended up paying some $800.
That's what I paid for a VW -- not the key, the entire vehicle.

Mighty_Girl
12-16-2008, 10:40 AM
Couldn't they just make one without the chip so I can open my door if I lock my keys in the car? That's what I'm most worried about. I wouldn't even need it to start the car.I did that. I had a copy of the metal part made at the mall, the guy warned me it wouldn't start my car (I knew that), I have it hidden under the chassis for those ocassions when the car locks itself (it's not a bug, it's a feature). So we have two working keys and a blank.

NurseCarmen
12-16-2008, 12:23 PM
Just called a local locksmith. He can do it for $62.50. Still pricey, but nearly half of what the dealership wanted, and they don't seem like assholes.

Contrapuntal
12-16-2008, 12:49 PM
It didnīt take more than 20 mins. though, and part of that was waiting.What were you doing the rest of the time?

NurseCarmen
12-16-2008, 02:28 PM
Went to Apollo locksmith over lunch. They were quick, friendly, and did it right. It made me realize that I always have keys made and locks changed at the big box down the street and it's a pain in the ass because the keys only work half the time, and once they broke a lock. The asswipes at Roseville Midway Ford have helped me find somewhere that I will happily be a repeat customer. Thanks asswipes!

BubbaDog
12-16-2008, 03:10 PM
Former service advisor for Ford, Landrover and Mercedes checking in.

The fact that keys NEED to be reprogrammed to the vehicle is not the fault of the dealer. Vehicles today have an increasing amount of software and electronics, and the ignition system is just another part of that. Keys no longer just turn in an ignition barrel, they also send and recieve vehicle specific data from the relevent control units in the vehicle itself. For the same reason you would not want the same cut of key to start any Range Rover, so you cannot have the same programming codes on every key produced. Ergo, they need to be programmed to the vehicle.

The process of programming keys is often quoted as a "ten minute" job, but this is not always the case. Generally the technician hooks the vehice up to the required computer terminals, and runs the required programs to align the key to the vehicle. It is extremely common that this program will need to be repeated multiple times. Why? It will take a better electrician than me to answer that question, but anything involving those control units can be very twitchy. So in my experience, I have seen keys programmed in 10 minutes, and keys that took over an hour (Mercedes Vito vans were particularly annoying IME).

In any workshop I worked, we set a fixed fee for reprogramming keys, generally set at about one hours usual labour rate. Bear in mind that most dealerships will charge you for the first hour regardless of why the car is there (for justifiable reasons). Also bear in mind that the reprogramming still requires an trained dealer techician. You are paying for his expertise, whether it is for programming a key, or for repairing problems in the gearbox or instrument cluster.

As to the price of the physical key itself, I believe that is fixed by the manufacturer. I dont believe any dealership makes much profit on them, and I do know that the cost price of the key has rocketed in the past few years.

A common situation I faced was a customer who would buy a key from our parts department, then indicate total outrage that we in service would be charging more money if he wanted it programmed. Sorry sir, but if you bought brake pads, would you expect us to fit them for free? If you bought a steering rack, should the fitting be free? Programming keys is an equivalent situation, however much you might protest otherwise.

To anybody complaining about the cost of programming keys, do you have any idea how much the software costs just to be able to do that programmng? I wont make up any numbers, but it aint two bits for damn sure.

So, let me get this right. The key. The one piece of equipment for the vehicle that is designed to be taken away from the vehicle where it might be lost or damaged. The key that used to do the job for the last 70 years quite nicely by enabling one system (the ignition) in the car to operate and therefore worked as a safeguard to the entire vehicle. That key. The key that could be duplicated only by the holder of the original. A passerby on the street could not inspect the car and manufacture a passable key. But the owner could have the original key copied if he needed another.

That key.

That key is now used to enable multiple systems in the car and is a complicated electrical/mechanical device that is time consuming,expensive and difficult for the representatives of the manufacturer to duplicate so that the customer has to spend considerable money just to have a duplicate made. That key.

That key with which dealers found a way to complicate and maintain exclusion on what should be a simple process.

Think about it. You can walk into any Home Depot and buy a replacement garage door opener control and take it home and program it for your existing garage door opener. It is the "key" to your whole house yet its quite easy and inexpensive for you the customer to duplicate it, control it, and secure your home.

But the key to your car requires expensive equipment, exclusive suppliers and trained technicians?

Does the customer get a free shovel for the horse-shit excuse you just dumped out?

Frank
12-16-2008, 03:15 PM
Couldn't they just make one without the chip so I can open my door if I lock my keys in the car? That's what I'm most worried about. I wouldn't even need it to start the car.
When I bought my Saturn L-300 back in 2001, a few weeks later they sent me a welcome package of sorts. Included was a simple key (with a holder) that only opens the door; it won't open the trunk and it won't start the car. I've had it in my wallet ever since. Of course, I've never needed it, that won't happen until I lose it.

Llama Llogophile
12-16-2008, 03:52 PM
I've said it before on the boards, and will now say it again:

Cars are getting too complicated.

What's worse, this particular type of complexity doesn't really improve anything. Failures of these new systems causes what used to be simple problems to be complex and expensive problems.

What happened to the elegance of simplicity?

CaveMike
12-16-2008, 04:11 PM
So in my experience, I have seen keys programmed in 10 minutes, and keys that took over an hour [stuff deleted]

In any workshop I worked, we set a fixed fee for reprogramming keys, generally set at about one hours usual labour rate.The fixed fee should be the average time to replace a key. If some take 10 minutes and others take 60, then charging for a full 60 is not fair. Even if a tech's time is blocked in hour-units, it is still not right to charge some people for an hours work when it only took 10 or 20 minutes.

UncleBeer
12-16-2008, 04:18 PM
What's worse, this particular type of complexity doesn't really improve anything.
Sure it does. When I insert my key in the ignition, the driver's seat and review mirrors are automatically returned to the position memorized for that key. The second ignition key does likewise for a second driver. And in many vehicles more expensive than mine, the keys trigger other memorized settings, too - like your radio presets.

PoorYorick
12-16-2008, 04:21 PM
Cars are getting too complicated.
I guess I'm officially an old fart. When I bought my truck I had to fight with the salesman because I specifically did not want power windows. From my experience, it was just one more expensive thing to repair.

Gala Matrix Fire
12-16-2008, 04:43 PM
Thank you, BubbaDog, for saying what I wanted to say and more.

Omegaman
12-16-2008, 06:09 PM
Any one notice how none of the car guys are chiming in on this thread? Might be because if you buy a car with one key, well that's kind of your bad. You could have insisted on getting 2 keys with your vehicle, like most people do. Oh, and not to leave out people who lose their keys, DON"T FUCKING LOSE THEM!! Their's nothing finer than somebody calling me on the phone and wanting me to cut them a key on their word. NEWS FLASH!!!!! Your word doesn't mean shit!! People kill each other over far less, even spouses. Never fails to amaze me when someone does something ass backwards stupid, the first thing they want from you is to circumvent the law and give them a key to something that costs 50,000 dollars. Except for bitching about how much it costs. I give all people who lose their keys a discount on the key and the programming, because I wouldn't want to piss them off, but hey, face the facts, your dumb ass lost the mother fuckers so save your fucking ball bag bull shit for your mommy.

I feel much better now. Thank you for your support.

Ann Onimous
12-16-2008, 06:15 PM
Cars are getting too complicated.

Getting? We drive a 1994 Buick Regal GS, and it has a chipped key. I think they've already passed complicated and traveled to impossible. ;)

Jeff
12-16-2008, 06:17 PM
I've said it before on the boards, and will now say it again:

Cars are getting too complicated.

What's worse, this particular type of complexity doesn't really improve anything. Failures of these new systems causes what used to be simple problems to be complex and expensive problems.

What happened to the elegance of simplicity?

Too complicated? I have a key with a chip linked to an immobilizer. Which is handy since car theft rates in the Lower Mainland are some of the worst in the country, and my car (a Civic) has been a consistent top5 favorite thieves' target for longer than a decade.

Doesn't improve anything, my ass. Your 'elegance of simplicity' means some meth-head using a screwdriver to steal my car. No thanks.

Llama Llogophile
12-16-2008, 07:17 PM
Sure it does. When I insert my key in the ignition, the driver's seat and review mirrors are automatically returned to the position memorized for that key. The second ignition key does likewise for a second driver. And in many vehicles more expensive than mine, the keys trigger other memorized settings, too - like your radio presets.

Maybe that's worth something to you, but as PoorYorick said, I just see it as something expensive to potentially have to repair. I don't mind adjusting my mirrors.

I don't have a problem with that function existing, or you liking it. The problem is it's difficult-to-impossible to NOT have these features come with a car should one so desire.

bucketybuck
12-16-2008, 07:59 PM
So, let me get this right. The key. The one piece of equipment for the vehicle that is designed to be taken away from the vehicle where it might be lost or damaged. The key that used to do the job for the last 70 years quite nicely by enabling one system (the ignition) in the car to operate and therefore worked as a safeguard to the entire vehicle. That key. The key that could be duplicated only by the holder of the original. A passerby on the street could not inspect the car and manufacture a passable key. But the owner could have the original key copied if he needed another.

Geez, all those words to say nothing at all. The owner can get these keys copied if he wants another, nothing changed....

That key.

Better if it was THOSE keys, you know, have a spare

That key is now used to enable multiple systems in the car and is a complicated electrical/mechanical device that is time consuming,expensive and difficult for the representatives of the manufacturer to duplicate so that the customer has to spend considerable money just to have a duplicate made. That key.

That key with which dealers found a way to complicate and maintain exclusion on what should be a simple process.

It is still a relatively simple process, you just dont want to pay for it. In todays other news, gas got more expensive also...

Think about it. You can walk into any Home Depot and buy a replacement garage door opener control and take it home and program it for your existing garage door opener. It is the "key" to your whole house yet its quite easy and inexpensive for you the customer to duplicate it, control it, and secure your home.

But the key to your car requires expensive equipment, exclusive suppliers and trained technicians?

Give me a call when somebody duplicates your garage door opener and then drives your garage away

Does the customer get a free shovel for the horse-shit excuse you just dumped out?

I wouldnt trust you with a shovel


Bolding mine

bucketybuck
12-16-2008, 08:09 PM
Honestly, does anybody really have a problem with having the "on switch" for their very expensive, slightly mobile toy, be somewhat complicated? Is that really such a horrible problem?

On a related note, has anybody seen the directors cut of "Gone in 60 seconds"? The one where Nick Cage got three keys cut to steal three Mercedes, but got busted when they still wouldnt start the cars he was trying to steal? Cant say I liked that version, dont think it had the pace of the original...

Llama Llogophile
12-16-2008, 08:55 PM
Honestly, does anybody really have a problem with having the "on switch" for their very expensive, slightly mobile toy, be somewhat complicated?

My car isn't a toy. It's a necessary piece of my life that I make as inexpensive as possible.

So yeah, I have a problem with a key that costs over $1.50 or so to duplicate.

Finagle
12-16-2008, 11:04 PM
Honestly, does anybody really have a problem with having the "on switch" for their very expensive, slightly mobile toy, be somewhat complicated?


Yeah, I sort of do. It's not a big surprise to anyone that car keys get lost. So you'd think the car manufacturers would make the process of replacing the keys reasonably painless and inexpensive. But no, according to your previous post, it's a touchy, painful process that needs a "trained technician", despite the fact that the electronics in a chipped key can't cost two bucks total and there's absolutely nothing inherent about the task of reprogramming a key that a trained chimp couldn't do.

In other words, the car manufacturers gleefully turned what used to be a $1.50 task into a profit center. And the schmucks still can't make money.

Dag Otto
12-17-2008, 12:13 AM
The fact that keys NEED to be reprogrammed to the vehicle is not the fault of the dealer. Vehicles today have an increasing amount of software and electronics, and the ignition system is just another part of that. Keys no longer just turn in an ignition barrel, they also send and recieve vehicle specific data from the relevent control units in the vehicle itself. For the same reason you would not want the same cut of key to start any Range Rover, so you cannot have the same programming codes on every key produced. Ergo, they need to be programmed to the vehicle.

And all of that data could probably fit on a 16MB thumbdrive. The fact that it is on a key does not impress me.



The process of programming keys is often quoted as a "ten minute" job, but this is not always the case. Generally the technician hooks the vehice up to the required computer terminals, and runs the required programs to align the key to the vehicle. It is extremely common that this program will need to be repeated multiple times. Why? It will take a better electrician than me to answer that question, but anything involving those control units can be very twitchy. So in my experience, I have seen keys programmed in 10 minutes, and keys that took over an hour (Mercedes Vito vans were particularly annoying IME).

On the assembly line, you know the manufacturer isn't going to all that trouble to make the original keys. So why is it so hard for a dealer (you know, the ones with the factory training) to do the same?


To anybody complaining about the cost of programming keys, do you have any idea how much the software costs just to be able to do that programmng? I wont make up any numbers, but it aint two bits for damn sure.

Again, the system shouldn't be any harder than transferring data to a USB drive. Hell, car buyers should be given a CD with the information on it when they buy the car.

Cyberhwk
12-17-2008, 12:59 AM
This thread inspired me to contact my dealership to see how much a replacement for the remote I lost a year ago would be.

$177

sailor
12-17-2008, 03:23 AM
Yeah, I sort of do. It's not a big surprise to anyone that car keys get lost. So you'd think the car manufacturers would make the process of replacing the keys reasonably painless and inexpensive. But no, according to your previous post, it's a touchy, painful process that needs a "trained technician", despite the fact that the electronics in a chipped key can't cost two bucks total and there's absolutely nothing inherent about the task of reprogramming a key that a trained chimp couldn't do.

In other words, the car manufacturers gleefully turned what used to be a $1.50 task into a profit center. And the schmucks still can't make money. The problem is with the customers because they demand two conflicting, contradictory things. They want utmost security. No one should be able to get into my car without the key. And then they want to be able to get into the car easily without the key. That's like wanting to marry a virgin who is really good in bed. No can do.

If the system is really secure then it should be that to get into the car without the key you should take the car to Detroit together with your DNA sample, twenty two forms of picture ID and $2.56 in postal stamps. But customers would object to that and demand a really easy way to get into the car without the key. But then they complain if a car is stolen because it just shows the system is not as secure as it should be.

And they always want it cheap.

There is no pleasing some people.

Lizard
12-17-2008, 01:47 PM
What's worse, this particular type of complexity doesn't really improve anything. Failures of these new systems causes what used to be simple problems to be complex and expensive problems.

There's your answer. Why should the car makers let you have a $2.10 key to use your car, when they can charge you $250?

Lizard
12-17-2008, 01:51 PM
Sure it does. When I insert my key in the ignition, the driver's seat and review mirrors are automatically returned to the position memorized for that key. The second ignition key does likewise for a second driver. And in many vehicles more expensive than mine, the keys trigger other memorized settings, too - like your radio presets.

You think that is worth hundreds of dollars?!

NurseCarmen
12-17-2008, 02:04 PM
Sure it does. When I insert my key in the ignition, the driver's seat and review mirrors are automatically returned to the position memorized for that key. The second ignition key does likewise for a second driver. And in many vehicles more expensive than mine, the keys trigger other memorized settings, too - like your radio presets.My truck does nothing like this. It is simply a truck. An F-150, one of the most basic and non-fancy trucks out there. The computer that changes the seat settings and radio stations never made it to within miles of this vehicle.

And omegaman. Might be because if you buy a car with one key, well that's kind of your bad. You could have insisted on getting 2 keys with your vehicle, like most people do.Fuck you. I bought it from a private seller, and figured that a new key would cost all of five bucks.

sailor
12-17-2008, 02:42 PM
And omegaman. Fuck you. I bought it from a private seller, and figured that a new key would cost all of five bucks. It seems you figured wrong. I cannot see how you can blame that on anyone else. You see what happens when you assume.....

BubbaDog
12-17-2008, 03:28 PM
It is still a relatively simple process, you just dont want to pay for it. In todays other news, gas got more expensive also...


Actually I'm complaining about paying more for it since it once cost $3.50 to make a duplicate and now cost $350

In today's news gas went from $1.50 to $4.00. See any resemblance? Are you capable of understanding that? I don't want to make this concept too difficult for you.

You say its a relatively simple process yet I still have a concern about that. For simplicity I took a quick look around and tried to find an authority on this process but all I could find is the info supplied by the chucklehead in the next quote.
.....anything involving those control units can be very twitchy. So in my experience, I have seen keys programmed in 10 minutes, and keys that took over an hour

.......reprogramming still requires an trained dealer techician. You are paying for his expertise, whether it is for programming a key, or for repairing problems in the gearbox or instrument clusterI think Mr. Chucklehead disagrees with you


Give me a call when somebody duplicates your garage door opener and then drives your garage away.
Sounds good. You give me a call when somebody steals your car and contents worth over $250,000.

Also, I'll give you a call if somebody breaks into my home after buying a $12.00 garage door opener module and successfully programs it to the rolling codes of my garage door opener.

Again, my cost to duplicate access to my home with a reasonable protection scheme = $12.00 / My cost to duplicate access to my 10 year old car worth $4,000 = $350

Car manufacturers are always trying to find ways to continue revenue stream for aftermarket products and the key duplication process is an obviously result of that strategy.

Its very easy to make a protection scheme which gives the customer more control and less cost. The garage door example is proof of that. The customer can buy his own "key" and set and program his own code.

But why do that when you can suck money out of the customer? You might even luck out and find a few stupid service managers dumb enough to drink the Koolaid, believe the hype, and actually buy into the scheme.

Gala Matrix Fire
12-17-2008, 04:40 PM
... No one should be able to get into my car without the key. And then they want to be able to get into the car easily without the key...

Yeah, exactly. Except that second part. WTF?

LurkMeister
12-17-2008, 04:50 PM
Car manufacturers are always trying to find ways to continue revenue stream for aftermarket products and the key duplication process is an obviously result of that strategy.

[minor hijack]A friend of mine managed to lose the gas cap to her Kia Rio. So she went to the local auto supply store to get a replacement. She was told that Kia gas caps are only available from the dealers. So she went to the dealer and found out that the dealer charges $35 for a replacement gas cap. The auto shop she had gone to charged about $7 for their gas caps. :mad: [/mh]

Omegaman
12-17-2008, 05:24 PM
It seems you figured wrong. I cannot see how you can blame that on anyone else. You see what happens when you assume.....

Except for there was no me in the equation.

Morgenstern
12-17-2008, 05:28 PM
$125 really isn't all that bad. Mine is over $350 bucks, has batteries that need replaced and doesn't tolerate being washed in the washer when you forget to take it out of your pocket. Progress is such a wonderful thing.

sailor
12-18-2008, 03:12 AM
Except for there was no me in the equation.I am confused by this post. My post was not directed at you.

Omegaman
12-18-2008, 09:23 AM
I am confused by this post. My post was not directed at you.

Nor was mine at you. I was pointing out that usually when I assume something it's usually "me" that gets hosed. It was more me agreeing with you.

UncleBeer
12-18-2008, 10:17 AM
You think that is worth hundreds of dollars?!

Sure. That and everything else an encoded key does which has been mentioned by others in this thread. And it's not "hundreds of dollars" - at least not for my Lincoln. When I bought the car last year, the salesman told me that replacement keys were in the $150.00 range. Used to be, a cheap-ass aftermarket car alarm cost more than $150.00. And that thing only made noise; it wouldn't disable the ignition.

BubbaDog
12-18-2008, 10:40 AM
Sure. That and everything else an encoded key does which has been mentioned by others in this thread. And it's not "hundreds of dollars" - at least not for my Lincoln. When I bought the car last year, the salesman told me that replacement keys were in the $150.00 range. Used to be, a cheap-ass aftermarket car alarm cost more than $150.00. And that thing only made noise; it wouldn't disable the ignition.

The gripe isn't necessarily that the key holds information on a chip. The problem is with the manufacturers' and dealers' strategy of maintaining control over the process and thereby setting the price of duplication or replacement at an exorbitant level.

If you want to make a duplicate of your key, your only alternative is to buck up since the manufacturer set you up that way.

Take away the ownership of the process from the dealer and the price would drop like a rock. One easy way is if the new owner was given a PIN with his new car. He could take his key and his PIN to a third party supplier and get a duplicate made at a reasonable price. The PIN would add that extra layer of protection to the duplication process and it could be used as a seed value to create the proper programming for the key.

Just like replacing a lost ATM card the cost would be in dollars, not hundreds of dollars.

furt
12-18-2008, 10:55 AM
Oh, how I love my Jeep.Took it out of my mouth, baby.

There's reasons I drive an adult version of a Tonka truck. This is one.

Omegaman
12-18-2008, 11:19 AM
The gripe isn't necessarily that the key holds information on a chip. The problem is with the manufacturers' and dealers' strategy of maintaining control over the process and thereby setting the price of duplication or replacement at an exorbitant level.

I know of several shops locally that can program a key. The technology is available for any who care to purchase it. The last diag tool I sold to a shop was about 4,000 dollars and when i sold it to them I offered them free updates for as long as they owned the tool. At that time the yearly subscription for updates was about 1200 dollars. The tool is also capable of diagnosing any problem within any computer system on the vehicle, which at this time, includes damn near everything. So don't think there is some kind of super secret lockdown on this shit. Key blanks are sold by many manufacturers for far cheaper than you can buy them from the factory. The difference is the vehicle manufacturer only extends their warranty to products approved and sold by them. Hell, a bunch of locksmiths can cut and program these keys as well. Probably save you 40-50 dollars on what you would pay for them at the dealer. I don't beleive any local ones I deal with sell the blanks that have remotes on the head however. But if cheap is what you want, who gives a shit?

Omegaman
12-18-2008, 11:31 AM
Take away the ownership of the process from the dealer and the price would drop like a rock. One easy way is if the new owner was given a PIN with his new car. He could take his key and his PIN to a third party supplier and get a duplicate made at a reasonable price. The PIN would add that extra layer of protection to the duplication process and it could be used as a seed value to create the proper programming for the key.



Also, just so you know, this info IS provided with the paperwork when you buy a new vehicle. Don't under estimate how lazy people are.

BubbaDog
12-18-2008, 11:42 AM
Omegaman, thanks for fighting my ignorance. I based my comments on the fact that I couldn't find a replacement key for a used Acura that I bought for my son.

I priced from the local dealer at $165 a key and local locksmiths said that they couldn't help since the dealer controlled the process


My son managed to get two replacements and a FOB fob for $120 after he moved out of town for a summer internship. He said he lucked out by explaining that he was a poor college student (true) working a summer job and only had one key for his car. Should have cost him over $300 but the sales parts rep felt sorry for him and programmed it free.

Next time I need a replacement for any smart key I'll dig a little deeper in the area of locksmiths.

Omegaman
12-18-2008, 12:10 PM
[QUOTE=BubbaDog;10588911
Next time I need a replacement for any smart key I'll dig a little deeper in the area of locksmiths.[/QUOTE]

If you send me a PM I would be happy to help in any way I can. Cars are about the only thing I know well enough to offer help.

control-z
12-18-2008, 01:50 PM
If you have a ~96 or newer Ford with only one key for it, do this ASAP (http://fordf150.net/howto/patskey.php), before you lose your one key. Go on eBay and search for PATS keys, they're $9.00. Have a hardware store cut the key to match your existing one for $2 or so, and do the programming procedure yourself. I did it on my 98 Contour.

Nocturne
12-19-2008, 12:43 PM
That's what I paid for a VW -- not the key, the entire vehicle.

Then you actually got your money's worth.

I love my VW, it's saved my life at least once, but I have never seen a car with so many weird, costly problems that only the dealership could fix.

(Not talking about the key replacement. God, I hate that dealership.)

Osip
12-19-2008, 07:27 PM
Transponder keys are becoming very common.

Some vehicles are pretty easy to program/duplicate with the proper software.

Fords, GM, and Honda's require the software and the correct key blank.

Chrysler products require a PIN code which is special to each vehicle. The dealership has access to this number via the VIN number.

VW are a pain in the ass. There is a pin code, but only the dealership has it and they do not give it out. Here in town the VW dealership actually has people bring the keys to us to duplicate then take the keys back to the dealership to have programed.

Our shop just spent 10K on the equipment to program the majority of the transponder vehicles out there.

A ford like your NurseCarmen would have run 47.50 at our shop.

Also, if a automobile has a transponder key there are key blanks avalible to duplicate without the transponder chip. We use them all the time to make a mechanical key before using a more expensive transponder blank.
We have people come in all the time wanting a key without the transponder so they can have a spare in their wallet or purse.

The dealership here in town quoted someone 195 dollars to duplicate a key similar to yours, the guy was as upset as you. He also checked around and found a locksmith who could do it at a better price *smile*

I am glad you have a good experience with Apollo Locksmith. We locksmiths like hearing customers saying good things about us!

Osip

zenith
12-21-2008, 10:02 AM
Just called a local locksmith. He can do it for $62.50. Still pricey, but nearly half of what the dealership wanted, and they don't seem like assholes.

I had just the opposite happen w/Pontiac. The locksmiths wanted $55 and the dealer wanted $27.

Rick
12-21-2008, 12:50 PM
Dealership service manager here.
A new key and remote for our cars is about $500 for the key, the cut, the remote, two pieces of software, and the technician's time. A second key programmed at the same time is about $180 less since I only pay the technician once, and I can program up to six keys with one piece of software. Same with the remotes
Here is the deal, cars get stolen. In Europe, after the Berlin wall came down, high end cars like Mercedes, BMW and Volvos were getting stolen and driven east with such alarming regularity that the insurance industry threatened to not insure them any longer unless the cars were made more theft proof.
One of the results of this is chipped keys, another is rolling code remotes. In the US regulatory pressure has led to similar (not not quite as extreme) measures. In Canada some of these regulations are even tighter than the US.
There are a few myths in this thread.
First myth in this thread is that the dealer controls the codes/software that programs the keys. This is absolutely false. Here in the US by law the car maker has to make this information available to the aftermarket (for a fee of course) The dealer does not have a lock on this information.
I worked for an independent repair facility before I got my current job. We had the computer, car interface and everything needed to program keys and remotes. I recall quoting a replacement key/remote for a customer just before I left there. It was $504 + tax.
Here is how it broke down (all numbers are approx as I don't have my notes from a month ago with me)
Sell price
Key $140
Remote $180
Swivel $ 5
Software$ 80
Labor $ 99
Total $504
Here is my costs
Key $100
Remote $120
Swivel $ 3
Software $ 40
Repair subscription $125/ 3 days. Now this subscription was good for as many cars as I needed to program over the three days. However is not unknown to only have one car that needs programing over a 3 day period.
Technician time with benefits $30. (approx)
So my total costs were $418 and we have not even taken into account the cost of the hardware that is needed to do the programing (A tad over $7,000 BTW)
Anyone that has ever owned a business will tell you that this is not a huge amount of gross profit. You don't even want to know what the overhead is on my current shop is. :-)

Myth #2 in this thread, I can have my key cut for $2.50 cents. Maybe, it depends on the key. Many modern keys have side cut (sometimes called laser cut) key that take a special mill to cut. Since keys take a special mill to cut, and you won't find these machines at Home Depot or ACE hardware. Last time I had a side cut key done at a local locksmith it was about $20 bucks and that was 15 years ago.


As an aside, right now I have on my desk, a repair order that I will have to discipline one of my technicians over. Our remotes come with two printed codes on the package. One 8 digits and the other 16 digits long. Both are case sensitive alpha numeric codes. If you un-program a remote from a car, it cannot be re-introduced to that car or any other without the 2 codes. Anyway a customer came in for an additional remote, and Einstein un-programmed the existing remote and then installed the new one. For some reason the customer finds this unacceptable. I can't figure out why. ;)
So on Monday I get to give out a new remote and programming for free and write up my employee for being an idiot. ::: sigh:::

casdave
12-21-2008, 01:17 PM
Point remains Rick is why is your overhead so high, why do the car companies structure is so that it is so high?

You are in the front line and get all the flak, but the car company makes most of the money and takes none of the heat.

Why can others do it for far less?

Why is the hardware, software and everything else so expensive, when the reality is that something like an encrypeted USB stick with pretty much a similar level of technology costs a fraction of your price?

'Cause it is a functional monopoly and a rip off, thats why.

The Tao's Revenge
12-21-2008, 01:32 PM
Point remains Rick is why is your overhead so high, why do the car companies structure is so that it is so high?

You are in the front line and get all the flak, but the car company makes most of the money and takes none of the heat.

Why can others do it for far less?

Why is the hardware, software and everything else so expensive, when the reality is that something like an encrypeted USB stick with pretty much a similar level of technology costs a fraction of your price?

'Cause it is a functional monopoly and a rip off, thats why.

Well said. It'd be trivial to implement key chip scheme that costs less then $20 to replace.

Rick
12-21-2008, 02:06 PM
If you implement a less than $20 trivialy easy scheme for the chip, it holds to reason that it will be trivially easy to break said scheme.
OOPS. :smack:
I guess you missed the part in my last post about cars being stolen and taken to Russia. It is a constant arms race between the good guys and the bad guys.
As far as my overhead goes, you trying renting prime street corner real estate in Santa Monica. The car company has nothing to do with my rent, electrical bill, water, wages, do I need to go on? My customers also expect a rental car for free, or a factory loaner. These don't grow on trees, they cost money. Money that is charged against my bottom line.
In short my customers don't want to drive from Beverly Hills or Brentwood to east bumfuck to pay a bit less for a new ignition key.
My costs are fairly high, so I have to charge accordingly.
Never forget in a retail transaction there are three elements:
Price
Availability
Service
You may pick any two.
I have the parts in stock, I am right around the corner, and I offer awesome service. This is what my customers expect. as a result they get to pay for it.

Dag Otto
12-21-2008, 09:42 PM
If you implement a less than $20 trivialy easy scheme for the chip, it holds to reason that it will be trivially easy to break said scheme.


It's not that the scheme need to be trivially easy, it's just that transferring the code for that scheme to a blank key should be easy. Any PC can transfer a gigabyte or two of encrypted information to an external device in a very short time. I just can't understand why a key would be so difficult to require so much effort.

Give the owner of a car a CD with the information at the time of purchase. When he needs a new key he takes the CD to the dealer who pops the CD in a computer, a blank key in the programmer, and hands the owner the CD and a new key back in 10 minutes.

If the owner doesn't have the CD, then sure, the process is more difficult and expensive, but wouldn't giving the owner the CD be better customer service in the first place?

Rick
12-22-2008, 12:04 AM
Give the owner of a car a CD with the information at the time of purchase. When he needs a new key he takes the CD to the dealer who pops the CD in a computer, a blank key in the programmer, and hands the owner the CD and a new key back in 10 minutes.
Bwahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!
Riiiiiiiiiight.
Stop it, you're killing me.

BubbaDog
12-22-2008, 09:00 AM
Bwahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!
Riiiiiiiiiight.
Stop it, you're killing me.

Hey, if you can claim that my car might get stolen and head for Russia, think that Dag Otto can stretch it a little too.

Its not like the customer is sophisticated enough to work with encrypted systems. Why I remember when I needed an additional programed remote for my garage door opener. I had to go to a specialist to get the encrypted module and have him use thousands of dollar software and 3 day licensing to prepare my.......oh, wait. I did it myself for about $20.00.

Never mind.

Gorsnak
12-22-2008, 09:28 AM
If you implement a less than $20 trivialy easy scheme for the chip, it holds to reason that it will be trivially easy to break said scheme.
OOPS. :smack:

Bullshit. Encryption isn't expensive. My free web browser does it all the time, and it's not trivial to break. Nor is there any reason for a key with data capabilities to have a $100 dealer cost, besides that being a price the manufacturer can get away with. I can buy far fancier electronics for a small fraction of the price. With open format standards and competition, I bet that the blank would cost about $10 (we're talking about something like a 64 kilobyte (NOT megabyte or gigabyte) usb stick, after all, plus an rfid-ish bit and the physical aspect of the key) and someone would do up an an open source software interface with state of the art encryption. That would leave a couple bucks required to get the key kiosk to do the cutting.

That it costs more than this is purely because it's a monopoly.

Rick
12-22-2008, 09:36 AM
Hey, if you can claim that my car might get stolen and head for Russia, think that Dag Otto can stretch it a little too.

Its not like the customer is sophisticated enough to work with encrypted systems. Why I remember when I needed an additional programed remote for my garage door opener. I had to go to a specialist to get the encrypted module and have him use thousands of dollar software and 3 day licensing to prepare my.......oh, wait. I did it myself for about $20.00.

Never mind.Nice reading for context there sparky. Need a little more straw for that man you are building?

crazyjoe
12-22-2008, 10:07 AM
Rick, I don't think anyone is chewing you out for your actual costs, we just insist that most of the costs for materials and labor should be cheaper.

I hold in my hand (ok, not really, it would make typing pretty slow...) a credit card with a chip in it that allows me to make purchses just by tapping it on a special card reader. My liability should this be misplaced is nearly zero, it all goes to the credit card company, who has to cover the charges themselves. So security is certainly something that has been thought about, and I am sure the chip has security features built in, if not out of self-interest from the CC company, than because of federal regs.

How much does such a fancy thing like this cost? $150? $200? $500 you say? Pshaw, it was FREE when I signed up for the credit card.

Garage doors are similar. I have heard no facts proposed in this thread that make me beleive that an RFID key is more secure than your average garage door opener. If you'd like to bring those facts to light, I'd be willing to consider your argument here.

The fact is that the cost of a replacement key is not something most people consider when purchasing a car, so it doesn't impact the sale, so there is little incentive for the mfr to change it, so you get this ridiculous system when it comes time to replace it.

Dealerships like complaints and calls to regional management, etc very little, and especially not for something as stupid as replacing a key. I am sure most of them would love to be able to just hand out a replacement key with a smile for a good customer. But they can't hand out 300 bucks worth of equipment and service, you know? This needs to get back to the mfrs, but something tells me they have more important things to listen to right now.

BubbaDog
12-22-2008, 11:06 AM
Nice reading for context there sparky. Need a little more straw for that man you are building?
Are you familiar with the word "stretch"?

Don't go handing out that straw. Mix it with some of that bullshit that seems to be passed from the manufacturer to you and that you try to pass on to me.
Bullshit + straw = bricks
Pick up that brick and toss it back at the manufacturer.

As a customer I don't mind the fees you charge me that are associated with reasonable costs - utilities, hardware, software etc.

But when you want to charge me $150 for what should be a $10 item because you had to pay $120 for it then you're not doing me any favors with your explanation.

It just sounds like you're saying, " Hey, I just got shit on so I'm shitting on you. Why are you angry?"

control-z
12-22-2008, 11:19 AM
The customer is the lowest man on the pile of shit, but both dealers and customers should be letting the manufacturers know what they think of the key situation. It can't generate much good will for the dealer or manufacturer for people to get gouged on keys like that.

Omegaman
12-22-2008, 12:00 PM
It just sounds like you're saying, " Hey, I just got shit on so I'm shitting on you. Why are you angry?"

Why would any one be angry? I sell things. If you need them and you are willing to pay, then you buy them.

It's more like this is what I paid for it, and you'll have to pay more than I did, or, I guess I won't sell it to you.. Reminds me of that supply and demand thing.

Oh, I almost forgot. Unless you lost your last key to your car, which you didn't have the foresight to get a duplicate, or didn't think it was worth the dough, which without a key is a 20,000 dollar paperweight?

Did I forget to mention that whenever making a key I take personal liability that I have cut a key for the actual owner of said vehicle?

The fact is that customers drive the demand for features on vehicles. I have received many surveys from the manufacturers for this very thing. Selling the parts for a vehicle that has had the seats and the consoles and the radio and every other thing that can get stolen from a vehicle less than selling "ONE" fucking programmed key that will stop a thief from attempting to steal your car at all?

You do the math.

casdave
12-22-2008, 12:41 PM
So lets take a look at Rick's costs and his charges then,




Rick's charges

Here is how it broke down (all numbers are approx as I don't have my notes from a month ago with me)
Sell price
Key $140
Remote $180
Swivel $ 5
Software$ 80
Labor $ 99
Total $504

Rick's costs

Key $100
Remote $120
Swivel $ 3
Software $ 40

Repair subscription $125/ 3 days. Now this subscription was good for as many cars as I needed to program over the three days. However is not unknown to only have one car that needs programing over a 3 day period.
Technician time with benefits $30. (approx)


Can anyone tell me what is wrong here? Shouldn't be too hard.

You, the customer, get charged $99 for $30 worth of labour, nice if you can get it.

There is no direct transfer of cost from the subscription charge to the end purchaser - strange that it is not all that transparent isn't it?

Rick is generous, he doesn't seem to charge at all for his cost of the 3 day subscription that is taking $125 out of him, and yet despite this he still makes a profit - nothing wrong with profit, its extortion that I object to.

Tell me, anyone think it is reasonable for the motor company to charge 3 days subscription for maybe an hours use at most?
There is a term for this, it is called 'bundling' where the seller in an effective monopoly bundles costs together that the purchaser neither wants nor needs, all this to ask for a higher price.

The keys and the remote, does anyone think they are hand crafted, personally engineered by unicorn mechanics and individually monogrammed? because that is one hell of a price to pay for mass produced items, these things are churned out in factories by the million, if not tens of millions and yet somehow economies of scale seem not to apply to them.

Literally the only differance between one remote and another is the software, if your remote dies then all they need do is supply another remote and code, nothing else whatsoever - its one of the benefits of programmability - its one of the serious ways of reducing costs.

The keys, do you think they are so amazingly unique that you have to pay twice for them? once for the item and once for the programming, in effect you are paying four times for one thing, the key+program+remote+program= one item.

Dag Otto
12-22-2008, 01:30 PM
Bwahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!
Riiiiiiiiiight.
Stop it, you're killing me.


I'm going to forget that we are in the pit, but I think you owe me a better explanation than that.

First, I don't doubt that things are as you describe them. You are only telling us the way the manufacturers have the system set up now and how you implement this system for your customers. If you are going to ridicule my ideas, as least tell me why the current method is so damn complicated when it really shouldn't be when other transfers of data are pretty common and relatively uncomplicated (and with far better than 'trivial' security).

And if you can, please explain what the 'repair subscription' covers. No doubt you need it, but what is it?

bucketybuck
12-22-2008, 01:46 PM
[QUOTE=casdave;10605688]So lets take a look at Rick's costs and his charges then,



Can anyone tell me what is wrong here? Shouldn't be too hard.

You, the customer, get charged $99 for $30 worth of labour, nice if you can get it.

QUOTE]

$30 of direct labour. What about those pesky indirect labour charges, such as the cost of Rick himself?

control-z
12-22-2008, 01:57 PM
Adding more hard data, here's how to program a Ford Focus or Mazda3 key, assuming you already have 2. It'll cost you about $25:

http://mazdas247.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71178

And the key blank itself: http://finishlineperformance.com/store/product.php?productid=17205&cat=366&page=1

BubbaDog
12-22-2008, 02:15 PM
Why would any one be angry? I sell things. If you need them and you are willing to pay, then you buy them.

It's more like this is what I paid for it, and you'll have to pay more than I did, or, I guess I won't sell it to you.. Reminds me of that supply and demand thing.

......

Silly me. You are correct. That item that once cost me $3.00 but now cost me $150 is because the demand went up so much. No? Then the supply must have dwindled. No?

The laws of supply and demand are compromised when monopolistic forces affect them.

How would you react if your electric rate went from $0.12 per kwh to $12.00 per kwh. Your electric company sells power. If you need it, you should be willing to pay for it. Don't get angry though.

Omegaman
12-22-2008, 05:52 PM
Silly me. You are correct. That item that once cost me $3.00 but now cost me $150 is because the demand went up so much. No? Then the supply must have dwindled. No?

The laws of supply and demand are compromised when monopolistic forces affect them.

How would you react if your electric rate went from $0.12 per kwh to $12.00 per kwh. Your electric company sells power. If you need it, you should be willing to pay for it. Don't get angry though.

I'll let you in on a little secret. When the power company raises my rates. I still pay them. I live in las vegas and you can be sure the power rate hikes don't go into effect untill spring. Right before you start using a shitload of it. I don't start a pit thread about it and guess what? It's the same fucking power I was paying for before. No added benefit. Not like getting a a key that stops some asswipe from stealing your whole fucking car with a screwdriver that costs 1.00. You know what else? If you wan't a vehicle that doesn't have a chip in the key all you have to do is ask. Vehicles that don't use chip keys are still sold at this very moment. In the end it's all about the customer, where I work at least. But don't be surprised if that vehicle doesn't have all the other stuff you just can't live without. You know, you, the customer. You want to buy a new vehicle that uses a chip key and you don't wan't to pay extra for it? Just ask. You think some salesman wouldn't sell you a car because he would lose 120.00 on it? None that I know of.

You should start riding a bike to work. Make sure you chain both tires or some greasy fuckstain will be having that too. The thief will have to spend more on the tool. Don't seem right does it?

25 bucks for a set of bolt cutters and just a dollar for a screw driver.

BubbaDog
12-22-2008, 07:16 PM
Its amazing. Four out of my five cars don't have keys with chips as did any previous car that I've owned. The one with the chip is about in the middle of the pack as far as value. Its quite surprising that I haven't been reduced to the bicycle situation yet with all of the shitstains coming out of the woodwork with their screwdrivers.

The "salesman" who sold me the chip key car was the poster child for used car salesman. Alas, only one key was available with the car. The car is hardly worth the effort to steal as its has very little chop shop value even though that model is protected from the screwdriver clan.

But that little ole key has somehow retained its value at my local dealer. that little bastard hasn't dropped a cent in value.

I'm preaching to deaf ears though if I'm trying to reach a guy who can shrug off $120.00/kwh electricity. Which one of those casinos do you own?

Omegaman
12-22-2008, 07:50 PM
Its I'm preaching to deaf ears though if I'm trying to reach a guy who can shrug off $120.00/kwh electricity. Which one of those casinos do you own?

Well what can I say? You keep balling about how much shit is and see where it gets you. When the power company starts accepting my wet crying towels for payment I'll let you know. When the dealer starts trading them for car keys I'll let you know. I'm sure we'll both be fucking rich then, huh?

The Tao's Revenge
12-22-2008, 09:23 PM
Well what can I say? You keep balling about how much shit is and see where it gets you. When the power company starts accepting my wet crying towels for payment I'll let you know. When the dealer starts trading them for car keys I'll let you know. I'm sure we'll both be fucking rich then, huh?

You're not willing to admit the possibility that some douche bag at some car productin company extorting $150 of your hard earned money for every replacement key is kinda annoying and objectionable?

Dag Otto
12-23-2008, 12:24 AM
You're not willing to admit the possibility that some douche bag at some car productin company extorting $150 of your hard earned money for every replacement key is kinda annoying and objectionable?

Not if he get $75 of it.

Rick
12-23-2008, 01:15 AM
So lets take a look at Rick's costs and his charges then,



Can anyone tell me what is wrong here? Shouldn't be too hard.

You, the customer, get charged $99 for $30 worth of labour, nice if you can get it.Ah welcome to doperland. Wonderful doperland where the temp is always 73 degrees, it never rains after 7 AM, landlords don't charge rent, Business don't pay taxes, employees don't want medical insurance, The boss doesn't expect a salary, employees don't expect matching contributions to their 401K, electricity and water are free for the asking.
:rolleyes:
So what color is the sky on your planet?



Tell me, anyone think it is reasonable for the motor company to charge 3 days subscription for maybe an hours use at most?
There is a term for this, it is called 'bundling' where the seller in an effective monopoly bundles costs together that the purchaser neither wants nor needs, all this to ask for a higher price.

The keys and the remote, does anyone think they are hand crafted, personally engineered by unicorn mechanics and individually monogrammed? because that is one hell of a price to pay for mass produced items, these things are churned out in factories by the million, if not tens of millions and yet somehow economies of scale seem not to apply to them.

Literally the only differance between one remote and another is the software, if your remote dies then all they need do is supply another remote and code, nothing else whatsoever - its one of the benefits of programmability - its one of the serious ways of reducing costs.

The keys, do you think they are so amazingly unique that you have to pay twice for them? once for the item and once for the programming, in effect you are paying four times for one thing, the key+program+remote+program= one item.
Geez where to start?
Diagnostic subscriptions are available in 3 day, 30 day and annual. It does not matter if you use it for one car or a hundred. Kinda like pay per view porn at a hotel. It costs you X amount for Y amount of time. It does not matter if you get off 2 minutes after the movie starts, roll over and go to sleep, or you stay up and whack off at every scene. The cost is the same. Same deal here. One car or a thousand you have 72 hours, 30 days or a year.

Tens of millions of remotes? :dubious: Of the remote I was describing probably fit about 300,000 cars that year. Each car comes with 2 of them, that's 600,000. A few people lose them and need to buy more, hell let's be generous, 50% of the people will buy a replacement, that brings us up to 750,000. Tens of millions? Oh, I forgot this is doperland where the banks will let you have all the money you want at no interest so you can stockpile a 20 year supply of parts on the shelf.
So how is the view from that ivory tower of yours?

So the key and the remote are one part? give me a fucking break. They are two distinct parts with two part numbers for a reason. sometimes remotes go bad, but the key is fine. Or maybe the key takes a shit, but the remote is wonderful. If we sold them as one part number the very first time somebody here had to buy a key when only their remote was bad, there would be a "Fuck you Volvo for making me buy a key when only my remote was bad" thread. I am guessing you would be first in line for that pile on. :rolleyes:
As far as the key + software or remote + software = one thing try this experiment and get back to me.
go out to Newegg.com and buy a new case, motherboard, ram, hard drive and a DVD burner. Assemble them all. Hit the power switch. do you get a Windows welcome screen? Post a question in GQ about your computer "problem". pretty soon one of our resident computer Sholin priests will come by and tell you "Aah grasshopper, you forget, hardware is hardware, and software is software. You must buy copy of Windows." The great God Gates looks down and says, "No shit sherlock"
So you borrow a copy of XP from a buddy and install it. When you try to make it work, you get a message that says, fuck you, this copy is already in use. So you post another thread about why can't you install your buddy's software. Our resident computer priest comes back and says, "But grasshopper, you know Though shall not steal." And the great God Gates looks down and says "It is good."
So after you pony up the buck for a legal copy of the software, you go to burn a DVD. You cannot find how to do this with Windows XP. so you post another thread "Why can't I burn a DVD?" Our priest comes back yet a third time to remind you that "Ah grasshopper, just because you have one piece of software, it does not mean that you have all pieces of software" and the great God Gates with his disciples Nero and Roxio look down and say "You got that shit right"
So why is the separation of hardware and software OK everywhere else in the computer world, but when installed in a car it becomes illegal, immoral, or fattening?

Rick
12-23-2008, 01:19 AM
You're not willing to admit the possibility that some douche bag at some car productin company extorting $150 of your hard earned money for every replacement key is kinda annoying and objectionable?Yup it is a well know fact that every employee at every car company is wiping their asses with $20 dollar bills and using $100 dollar bills to light their $50 cigars.
:rolleyes:
Looked at the financial new lately?

The Tao's Revenge
12-23-2008, 01:36 AM
Yup it is a well know fact that every employee at every car company is wiping their asses with $20 dollar bills and using $100 dollar bills to light their $50 cigars.
:rolleyes:
Looked at the financial new lately?

Pissing off your customers isn't a good way to stay in business. Especially with the cite that it can be done for $25.

The Tao's Revenge
12-23-2008, 01:45 AM
Ah welcome to doperland. Wonderful doperland where the temp is always 73 degrees, it never rains after 7 AM, landlords don't charge rent, Business don't pay taxes, employees don't want medical insurance, The boss doesn't expect a salary, employees don't expect matching contributions to their 401K, electricity and water are free for the asking.
:rolleyes:
So what color is the sky on your planet?




Geez where to start?
Diagnostic subscriptions are available in 3 day, 30 day and annual. It does not matter if you use it for one car or a hundred. Kinda like pay per view porn at a hotel. It costs you X amount for Y amount of time. It does not matter if you get off 2 minutes after the movie starts, roll over and go to sleep, or you stay up and whack off at every scene. The cost is the same. Same deal here. One car or a thousand you have 72 hours, 30 days or a year.

Tens of millions of remotes? :dubious: Of the remote I was describing probably fit about 300,000 cars that year. Each car comes with 2 of them, that's 600,000. A few people lose them and need to buy more, hell let's be generous, 50% of the people will buy a replacement, that brings us up to 750,000. Tens of millions? Oh, I forgot this is doperland where the banks will let you have all the money you want at no interest so you can stockpile a 20 year supply of parts on the shelf.
So how is the view from that ivory tower of yours?

So the key and the remote are one part? give me a fucking break. They are two distinct parts with two part numbers for a reason. sometimes remotes go bad, but the key is fine. Or maybe the key takes a shit, but the remote is wonderful. If we sold them as one part number the very first time somebody here had to buy a key when only their remote was bad, there would be a "Fuck you Volvo for making me buy a key when only my remote was bad" thread. I am guessing you would be first in line for that pile on. :rolleyes:
As far as the key + software or remote + software = one thing try this experiment and get back to me.
go out to Newegg.com and buy a new case, motherboard, ram, hard drive and a DVD burner. Assemble them all. Hit the power switch. do you get a Windows welcome screen? Post a question in GQ about your computer "problem". pretty soon one of our resident computer Sholin priests will come by and tell you "Aah grasshopper, you forget, hardware is hardware, and software is software. You must buy copy of Windows." The great God Gates looks down and says, "No shit sherlock"
So you borrow a copy of XP from a buddy and install it. When you try to make it work, you get a message that says, fuck you, this copy is already in use. So you post another thread about why can't you install your buddy's software. Our resident computer priest comes back and says, "But grasshopper, you know Though shall not steal." And the great God Gates looks down and says "It is good."
So after you pony up the buck for a legal copy of the software, you go to burn a DVD. You cannot find how to do this with Windows XP. so you post another thread "Why can't I burn a DVD?" Our priest comes back yet a third time to remind you that "Ah grasshopper, just because you have one piece of software, it does not mean that you have all pieces of software" and the great God Gates with his disciples Nero and Roxio look down and say "You got that shit right"
So why is the separation of hardware and software OK everywhere else in the computer world, but when installed in a car it becomes illegal, immoral, or fattening?

I have a Ubuntu cd that says you have to pay nada for software, it includes a cd burner app. There's a heap of free cd burning utilities for XP as well.

Other car makes can make new keys for $25. What's so special about your car companies keys? They gold plated? What brands do you service?

So we'll know to avoid them like the plague. Lose a key and you lost $150 bucks.

Rick
12-23-2008, 01:56 AM
Pissing off your customers isn't a good way to stay in business. Especially with the cite that it can be done for $25.

Great idea, we are barely breaking even at $150 so let's drop the cost to $25.
How does that go Lose a little on each one, but make it up in volume.

Rick
12-23-2008, 02:18 AM
I have a Ubuntu cd that says you have to pay nada for software, it includes a cd burner app. There's a heap of free cd burning utilities for XP as well.

Other car makes can make new keys for $25. What's so special about your car companies keys? They gold plated? What brands do you service?

So we'll know to avoid them like the plague. Lose a key and you lost $150 bucks.
So just which model hard drive to I buy to get it pre-loaded with Windows?

Gala Matrix Fire
12-23-2008, 05:35 AM
So far the only people in this thread who "want" a car key that adjusts their seat and radio and changes the radio station and does their taxes and monitors their credit report are a couple of car dealers who are getting really defensive really fast.

Yet these same car dealers claim they have car-dealership-sponsored research showing that the public is clamoring for these wonder keys.

The rest of us want a key that opens our car and turns it on, or one key to open the car and a different one to turn it on. Either way.

Odds are, when I go to look for a new car I'm not going to be thinking about the key until I'm finishing up the paperwork. It's going to really suck when I've wasted two hours in the dealership and I walk out because the car only comes with a 200-dollar key almost too big to hold in my fist because it has so many whizbang features incorporated into it.

Hey dealer guys, where do I go to fill out a survey about what I want in a car? I think these surveys need an SDMB infusion.

bucketybuck
12-23-2008, 06:11 AM
So far the only people in this thread who "want" a car key that adjusts their seat and radio and changes the radio station and does their taxes and monitors their credit report are a couple of car dealers who are getting really defensive really fast.

Yet these same car dealers claim they have car-dealership-sponsored research showing that the public is clamoring for these wonder keys.

The rest of us want a key that opens our car and turns it on, or one key to open the car and a different one to turn it on. Either way.
.


Did you read the thread? One person mentioned start-up features, but I don't think that is relevant at all to Rick's position. The development of keys was driving by a demand for increased car security, THAT is what the customer wanted, not personalised driving features. (Besides, I believe those types of features are part of the startup procedures contained in the main ECU, and are not really connected to the keys at all. I could be wrong though.)

Its very easy on a message board to say that all you want is a simple key that turns the darn car on, but I get the impression that there is an attitude of "nah, my car wont get stolen, I dont want that electronic crap, I want cheap keys". Well, thousands of cars did get stolen, and security features, including keys, have developed as a result.

Not customer driven? In my experience, the whole damn industry is customer driven.

sailor
12-23-2008, 07:39 AM
The cost of the physical key blank and the cutting should be whatever similar physical keys are going for these days. There is no justification for anything else.

The cost to the final customer of the physical electronic remote should not be more than $10 or say $20 if they really want to gouge the customer. Comparing with what electronics are going for these days there is no justification for anything more.

Programming the key can be and should be simple enough that the final customer can do it with no special tools if he has a minimum of ability. If the dealer or third party does it it should be a matter of less than 15 minutes.

With today's technology this is totally possible.

Now, car manufacturers can choose what they want to do and offer and they should have the freedom to do it. In the end screwing your customers is a bad way to do business.

The Tao's Revenge
12-23-2008, 07:57 AM
So just which model hard drive to I buy to get it pre-loaded with Windows?

You're being disingenious or obtuse. If you don't like the cost of one software you're free to use another. There's even free open source software. Software isn't a monopoly. Unlike car key production. There the price is artificially kept high and ridiculous and you have to pay it if you loose your car keys.

Pay it or walk. Where's the free market on that? Buyer be ware of shady greedy assholes and con artists in the auto industry.

Several cites from Focuses and Mazdas, to garage door openers show it's possible to make them at $25. The gripe isn't with you. It's with the obscene costs you have to take and pass on to the consumer.

If the costs of your supplies were reduced so you could sell them at a profit for $25 would you still have a gripe with this thread? You can't because car companies charge obscene amounts for the tools to do so.

Rick
12-23-2008, 08:08 AM
No I'm not, you are. I am pointing out that software !=! hardware. Just because you get it for free, that does not mean that software and hardware are the same thing. they aren't, never have been, and never will be.
In case you missed it, I was responding to casdave's rather inane comment The keys, do you think they are so amazingly unique that you have to pay twice for them? once for the item and once for the programming, in effect you are paying four times for one thing, the key+program+remote+program= one item.
My computer is one thing, why do I have to load software after I bought the hardware?:rolleyes:
Once again Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

sailor
12-23-2008, 08:26 AM
You're being disingenious or obtuse. If you don't like the cost of one software you're free to use another. There's even free open source software. Software isn't a monopoly. Unlike car key production. There the price is artificially kept high and ridiculous and you have to pay it if you loose your car keys.

Pay it or walk. Where's the free market on that? Buyer be ware of shady greedy assholes and con artists in the auto industry.

Several cites from Focuses and Mazdas, to garage door openers show it's possible to make them at $25. The gripe isn't with you. It's with the obscene costs you have to take and pass on to the consumer.

If the costs of your supplies were reduced so you could sell them at a profit for $25 would you still have a gripe with this thread? You can't because car companies charge obscene amounts for the tools to do so. (Bolding mine) I disagree here. When you buy a car you look (or "should look") at the whole cost of ownership and take into account the cost of maintenance. If people do not do that they have no one else to blame but themselves. If Lexmark pretty much gives away the printers and then charges a lot for the ink cartridges whose fault is it if I buy a printer from them?

Omegaman
12-23-2008, 03:56 PM
You're not willing to admit the possibility that some douche bag at some car productin company extorting $150 of your hard earned money for every replacement key is kinda annoying and objectionable?

Since nobody is holding a gun to my head the extortion thing don't fly. Sounds like you've never been robbed at gun or knifepoint. Even still,does it make one bit of difference? You pay or you don't. It's up to you. Crying about it isn't going to lower the price or save your ass either.

You can be sure the factory reps that frequent my dealer stay the fuck away from me. I break their balls all the time. You know though, I haven't ever said shit to them about chip keys because, well, every manufacturer uses them. Be sure I break thier balls about the shit that is brand specific all the time. I own two vehicles that use chip keys and I only have two chip keys for each of them. I got them at the time I purchased the vehicles. I do have 2 extra keys for each that will open the door in case of a lockout. And when I go on a trip I take both chip keys with me because I know if I lose one I will still have to pay to get one programmed. Just like everybody else.

The Tao's Revenge
12-23-2008, 04:20 PM
No I'm not, you are. I am pointing out that software !=! hardware. Just because you get it for free, that does not mean that software and hardware are the same thing. they aren't, never have been, and never will be.
In case you missed it, I was responding to casdave's rather inane comment
My computer is one thing, why do I have to load software after I bought the hardware?:rolleyes:
Once again Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Why is software a cost though? They had to write it once to program the initial bloody keys. It's not like other people using it will cost them any more money.

No they set up a 3 day bundling scheme to exorte as much money as they can like common crooks. I hope the execs responsible for this end up in the poor house. It's just a shim sham racket to extort as much money as possible.

Why does it need to be $150 when other manufactures can do it for $25? Do you service cars designed by incompetent engineers?


(Bolding mine) I disagree here. When you buy a car you look (or "should look") at the whole cost of ownership and take into account the cost of maintenance. If people do not do that they have no one else to blame but themselves. If Lexmark pretty much gives away the printers and then charges a lot for the ink cartridges whose fault is it if I buy a printer from them?

Well I agree to a point. Honestly though would you even think to check the price of a new key for TCO? Before this thread I wouldn't have.

Since nobody is holding a gun to my head the extortion thing don't fly. Sounds like you've never been robbed at gun or knifepoint. Even still,does it make one bit of difference? You pay or you don't. It's up to you. Crying about it isn't going to lower the price or save your ass either.

You can be sure the factory reps that frequent my dealer stay the fuck away from me. I break their balls all the time. You know though, I haven't ever said shit to them about chip keys because, well, every manufacturer uses them. Be sure I break thier balls about the shit that is brand specific all the time. I own two vehicles that use chip keys and I only have two chip keys for each of them. I got them at the time I purchased the vehicles. I do have 2 extra keys for each that will open the door in case of a lockout. And when I go on a trip I take both chip keys with me because I know if I lose one I will still have to pay to get one programmed. Just like everybody else.

It's fucking extortion. Pay outrageous fee or your car is bricked. Sure you could go without your car I guess, but that ain't so easy in the modern world. Why should you have to pay $150 when it's clearly possible for it to be done for $25?



Everyone missplaces their keys at some point. Just some car companies wanna be vultures and use that to extort lots of money from the victim.

sailor
12-23-2008, 05:26 PM
Well I agree to a point. Honestly though would you even think to check the price of a new key for TCO? Before this thread I wouldn't have. Well, no, I wouldn't. But if I hear that someone got screwed by company X I will try to remember it. And if *I* got screwed by someone you can bet your wife that I *will* remember and they will not get any more business from me and I will make a point of spreading the word. Yes, i hold grudges for a long time.

casdave
12-24-2008, 12:37 AM
Rick

My comment is 'inane', and yet your response is

Once again Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Yet you have not given any real analysis of your costs, or why things are as they are, you still have not justified why the car company charges you for a 3 day subscription when you only need it for an hour, you just reiterate that you can do lots of other things in that period.

Remember I used your costs, I did not make them up, how much further do we break down on individaul item to extort money for each part, perhaps we should charge for the plastic bag that the parts come in because of the special proerties that these plastic bags have.

Get a fucking clue dumbass, I am not fucking interested in how many other cars you can deal with for that fee, what fucking interest is that to me?

I have one car, I want a key, it takes less than an hour to program one, so riddle me this, why do I want to pay for you to have a 3 day subscription?

If all car dealers are as fucking clueless as you, with a customer ethic such as yours, then its no wonder the auto makers need bailout is it?

Rick
12-24-2008, 06:48 AM
Go back and read post 93 if you want an explanation of why your views are inane.
Further if you think I am going to post my full operating expense report here just to show you how wrong you are, you are seriously on drugs.
As far as the three day subscription goes, the subscription has to run for some set period, 3 days is what they picked. What period of time would you suggest? Now before you answer, don't forget that this same subscription is used for every diagnostic function in the car from reading various fault codes, to reprogramming control units to calibration, to parts look up to what ever. Now if you say it should be in one hour increments, just how would that play out if my buddy the independent had a stubborn check engine light that took him three days to fix (been known to happen), should he have to get his credit card out 24 times? :rolleyes:
Let me repeat that it is the same computer program that does all the diagnostic functions on all Volvos for the last 10 years. It does not matter if we are programming a key, looking up a repair procedure, or downloading new software to the climate control module it is the same computer program that does the work.
If you say that the program should be free, think back to when there were paper repair manuals, were they free? No they weren't, and you could not rent them for 3 days either. This program does one hell of a lot more that any paper manual ever did.
At the dealership due to our high demand for this program I run multiple licenses and annual subscriptions. A small independent does not have the same need for the program as I do so they buy them as needed. That is the difference between doing 5 cars a day and doing 100+ cars a day
I don't understand why you and The Tao's Revenge are having such a problem with subscriptions having a cost. On my desk, I have a cell phone I paid several hundred dollars for. Yet every month I have to pay AT&T so I can use it. I have a TIVO that I purchased, yet every month I have to pay an subscripton charge to use it. Where is the fuck you TIVO thread? I must have missed it. Having to pay an access charge to use some hardware is hardly an unknown concept, yet you guys are acting like the car company is Lucifer himself for using it.

control-z
12-24-2008, 08:01 AM
Let's be realistic, a transponder key is a 5 cent hunk of metal with a probably 50 cent circuit inside. Everything else is just red tape and gouging. Yes, the security of the transponder keys is a great feature, but the car companies took that as an invitation to get their hooks into the dealers and owners by making things overly-complex and expensive.

Another possible option for those down to one transponder key, just make a copy of it to a non-transponder key. Should only cost a couple dollars. Then tape the working transponder key to the underside of your steering column. The car ignition is likely just looking for the presence of a properly coded transponder key. It doesn't necessarily care if that's the same key that's in the ignition. The mere presence of the transponder chip should be enough to convince the car to start with the copy key. Of course there's a security risk from doing this; if someone breaks into your car they have a working key right on the bottom of your steering column. I suppose you could hacksaw off the non-keyfob portion of the transponder key so the crook would at least have to hotwire the car to get it started.

Either way, I would go to great lengths to avoid paying $120 for a key, especially on an older car. This has been known to work on Toyotas and Fords, I don't see why it wouldn't work with any transponder key system that doesn't rely on a physical connection to the transponder chip. If this works, make another copy so you can have at least two working keys outside the car.

The Tao's Revenge
12-24-2008, 08:17 AM
Go back and read post 93 if you want an explanation of why your views are inane.
Further if you think I am going to post my full operating expense report here just to show you how wrong you are, you are seriously on drugs.
As far as the three day subscription goes, the subscription has to run for some set period, 3 days is what they picked. What period of time would you suggest? Now before you answer, don't forget that this same subscription is used for every diagnostic function in the car from reading various fault codes, to reprogramming control units to calibration, to parts look up to what ever. Now if you say it should be in one hour increments, just how would that play out if my buddy the independent had a stubborn check engine light that took him three days to fix (been known to happen), should he have to get his credit card out 24 times? :rolleyes:
Let me repeat that it is the same computer program that does all the diagnostic functions on all Volvos for the last 10 years. It does not matter if we are programming a key, looking up a repair procedure, or downloading new software to the climate control module it is the same computer program that does the work.
If you say that the program should be free, think back to when there were paper repair manuals, were they free? No they weren't, and you could not rent them for 3 days either. This program does one hell of a lot more that any paper manual ever did.
At the dealership due to our high demand for this program I run multiple licenses and annual subscriptions. A small independent does not have the same need for the program as I do so they buy them as needed. That is the difference between doing 5 cars a day and doing 100+ cars a day
I don't understand why you and The Tao's Revenge are having such a problem with subscriptions having a cost. On my desk, I have a cell phone I paid several hundred dollars for. Yet every month I have to pay AT&T so I can use it. I have a TIVO that I purchased, yet every month I have to pay an subscripton charge to use it. Where is the fuck you TIVO thread? I must have missed it. Having to pay an access charge to use some hardware is hardly an unknown concept, yet you guys are acting like the car company is Lucifer himself for using it.

Because greedy scum bags who have more common with criminals then decent business men are using subscriptions to drive to the price way up on something that only needs to cost $25.

Because unlike you I don't like some auto exec's ass and call it chocolate.

I'm still wondering what cars you service with these outrageous fees (not that I'm blaming you for the fees but the asshats who designed the system).

Rick
12-24-2008, 08:48 AM
Let's be realistic, a transponder key is a 5 cent hunk of metal with a probably 50 cent circuit inside. Everything else is just red tape and gouging. Yes, the security of the transponder keys is a great feature, but the car companies took that as an invitation to get their hooks into the dealers and owners by making things overly-complex and expensive.

Another possible option for those down to one transponder key, just make a copy of it to a non-transponder key. Should only cost a couple dollars. Then tape the working transponder key to the underside of your steering column. The car ignition is likely just looking for the presence of a properly coded transponder key. It doesn't necessarily care if that's the same key that's in the ignition. The mere presence of the transponder chip should be enough to convince the car to start with the copy key. Of course there's a security risk from doing this; if someone breaks into your car they have a working key right on the bottom of your steering column. I suppose you could hacksaw off the non-keyfob portion of the transponder key so the crook would at least have to hotwire the car to get it started.

Either way, I would go to great lengths to avoid paying $120 for a key, especially on an older car. This has been known to work on Toyotas and Fords, I don't see why it wouldn't work with any transponder key system that doesn't rely on a physical connection to the transponder chip. If this works, make another copy so you can have at least two working keys outside the car.
This does not work on our systems (Had a technician that had a physically broken key, he was trying to start the car to get it into the shop to program the new key.) No go, the system is too smart for that, the key has to be in the ignition, not just near it.

Omegaman
12-24-2008, 09:23 AM
Let's be realistic, a transponder key is a 5 cent hunk of metal with a probably 50 cent circuit inside. Everything else is just red tape and gouging. Yes, the security of the transponder keys is a great feature, but the car companies took that as an invitation to get their hooks into the dealers and owners by making things overly-complex and expensive.

Another possible option for those down to one transponder key, just make a copy of it to a non-transponder key. Should only cost a couple dollars. Then tape the working transponder key to the underside of your steering column. The car ignition is likely just looking for the presence of a properly coded transponder key. It doesn't necessarily care if that's the same key that's in the ignition. The mere presence of the transponder chip should be enough to convince the car to start with the copy key. Of course there's a security risk from doing this; if someone breaks into your car they have a working key right on the bottom of your steering column. I suppose you could hacksaw off the non-keyfob portion of the transponder key so the crook would at least have to hotwire the car to get it started.

Either way, I would go to great lengths to avoid paying $120 for a key, especially on an older car. This has been known to work on Toyotas and Fords, I don't see why it wouldn't work with any transponder key system that doesn't rely on a physical connection to the transponder chip. If this works, make another copy so you can have at least two working keys outside the car.

Well that's using your head. I'll try this with my own ride and see if it works.

Shalmanese
12-24-2008, 12:06 PM
Rick, no-one in this thread is accusing you of gouging. Rather, they're sympathetic that you too are being gouged by the car companies. There's no good reason why you should have to be paying $100 for a key blank and hundreds of dollars in subscription fees for software.

Mostly, we don't get why you're being such an apologist for the car companies when it's pretty clear that they're gouging you.


Tens of millions of remotes? :dubious: Of the remote I was describing probably fit about 300,000 cars that year. Each car comes with 2 of them, that's 600,000. A few people lose them and need to buy more, hell let's be generous, 50% of the people will buy a replacement, that brings us up to 750,000. Tens of millions? Oh, I forgot this is doperland where the banks will let you have all the money you want at no interest so you can stockpile a 20 year supply of parts on the shelf.


There's no reason why multiple models of cars can't share the same remote or at least the same base board with a different plastic cover. I can routinely buy far more complex pieces of equipment with far smaller production runs for far less.

Omegaman
12-24-2008, 01:42 PM
There's no reason why multiple models of cars can't share the same remote or at least the same base board with a different plastic cover. I can routinely buy far more complex pieces of equipment with far smaller production runs for far less.

Being on the ass end of the process there's is not a lot someone at the dealership level can do. The manufacturers buy their parts from suppliers that are generally controled by the UAW, the big three manufacturers for the most part. Foreign manufacturers I have no idea. Personally I would rather not cut keys at all. I take a liability to do so and the amount of crap you have to deal with is overwhelming. I make more money selling actual parts. All the pissing and moaning about it gets old.

casdave
12-25-2008, 05:32 AM
Being on the ass end of the process there's is not a lot someone at the dealership level can do.

Now this is something I can agree with, its not the dealer I hold responsible, its the way the companies have set up a system to break down one item into smaller parts and then charge lots and lots for each one.

This is a functional monopoly, because you usually cannot get the right item from anwhere else but at a franchised dealer.

It has been a long and subtle process to get to where we are, but slowly we have become accustomed to this concept of buying keys in ever smaller components, and not once during that process has it been of advantage to the consumer.

Dealers do not aim to piss off their customers, but they get the flak due to the manufacturers.

NurseCarmen
12-25-2008, 11:13 PM
Rick. I respect you. I always have. I think you'll note that I have commended you and GaryT on multiple occasions. But on this one, I think some executive in some windowed Detroit office is making consistently fucked up ideas that the dealerships, the customers, and ultimately you, have to deal with.

The insurance companies clamored for more secure cars, understandable. I hadn't known that before, and it makes sense. And you enlightened me. But it seems to me that there were multiple approaches to addressing the problem, and Ford chose one the is needlessly complicated on so many layers, and labor intensive. Ford of course makes it's money off dealers, just like any franchise. So some asshole in a window office decides he can force the dealers to use whatever fits his whim.

Now the three day subscription thing is really interesting. And I think it gives me some insight into how the car companies are fucking with the dealers. I work in IT. I work in a supercomputing institute with some of the brightest minds of the business. And I can tell you this unequivocally. Making one massive computer program that diagnoses everything is just about the stupidest approach to this . I can only imagine that Ford laid off the guy that originally designed and programmed the on board computer, so no one has a clue how to write a separate program. Why else would they make such a fucked up program? So everything has to go into this massive hulking program that does everything. Because of that you've got a program that is testing your transmission and window motor when all you have is a short in a break light. It's needlessly complicated probably because that same asshole two decades ago chose to program the on board computers with a proprietary system that has become so bloated over the years because the whole friggen thing is built on a house of cards and can't be changed.

Stupid.

But why fix it? The dealerships aren't complaining, and it is there where the money is really made. Not the customer. So fuck em. So asshole in the window office who was tasked to increase his "key" market segment, had a stroke of luck when the insurance companies whined. So he chose the most fucked up resolution to the problem that he could that would also increase his market segment's bottom line.

I think that the car companies have become so bloated and unresponsive because of the channel design of modern manufacturing in the US. As long as asshole in the window office consistently shows profit in his channel of responsibility, he is safe. I think the recent spotlight on the heads of these companies proves that there isn't a person on the top saying, hey, isn't there another approach to this? Those fuckers are too busy looking at there stocks than to really appreciate what the fuck is really going on in their company. Something this trivial likely never even showed up on the radar. But it is endemic as to what is wrong with US auto manufacturing.

I don't blame the dealerships on this at all. I was pissed when they told me, and I made the OP when I was, but in hindsight and with the additional information that I've seen, My anger belongs in Detroit. And frankly dude, I think they are screwing you with a spikey dildo.

sailor
12-26-2008, 05:13 AM
I bet you could get the new extra key for free when you buy the new car.

Omegaman
12-26-2008, 09:30 AM
Something this trivial likely never even showed up on the radar. But it is endemic as to what is wrong with US auto manufacturing.

Well if it was just the US I might agree. But it isn't. Rick works for Volvo. Even working for Chrysler I deal with both Daimler vehicles and Mitsubishi and they do they same shit. If you need a key for a Daimler the dealer can't even cut it. It is ordered cut and programmed. And they are way more expensive than any Chrysler key. GM is the one that started the shit in either the late eighties or early nineties. Back then it was one wire at the base of the steering column and they would ripped off too.

Please forgive my hostility. When you hear about it 5 to 10 times a day, usually after somebody loses thier key and had only one to start with, your compassion kind of goes in the pooper.

Omegaman
12-26-2008, 09:34 AM
I bet you could get the new extra key for free when you buy the new car.

It would definatley happen around here, current economic situation or no.

Rick
12-27-2008, 12:41 AM
Because greedy scum bags who have more common with criminals then decent business men are using subscriptions to drive to the price way up on something that only needs to cost $25.

Because unlike you I don't like some auto exec's ass and call it chocolate.

I'm still wondering what cars you service with these outrageous fees (not that I'm blaming you for the fees but the asshats who designed the system).Foam at the mouth much?
Perhaps the reason I disagree with you is one of us has worked in the industry for over 40 years at both independents, dealers, in a parts house and for the factory. The other person is an uninformed interweb "ex-spurt"*. Gee which one of us do you think knows more about this subject?

Rick, no-one in this thread is accusing you of gouging. Rather, they're sympathetic that you too are being gouged by the car companies. There's no good reason why you should have to be paying $100 for a key blank and hundreds of dollars in subscription fees for software.

Mostly, we don't get why you're being such an apologist for the car companies when it's pretty clear that they're gouging you.



There's no reason why multiple models of cars can't share the same remote or at least the same base board with a different plastic cover. I can routinely buy far more complex pieces of equipment with far smaller production runs for far less.Multiple models of cars do share the same remote. the 300,000 number I quoted covered 5 different models produced that year.

Rick. I respect you. I always have. I think you'll note that I have commended you and GaryT on multiple occasions. But on this one, I think some executive in some windowed Detroit office is making consistently fucked up ideas that the dealerships, the customers, and ultimately you, have to deal with.

The insurance companies clamored for more secure cars, understandable. I hadn't known that before, and it makes sense. And you enlightened me. But it seems to me that there were multiple approaches to addressing the problem, and Ford chose one the is needlessly complicated on so many layers, and labor intensive. Ford of course makes it's money off dealers, just like any franchise. So some asshole in a window office decides he can force the dealers to use whatever fits his whim.

Now the three day subscription thing is really interesting. And I think it gives me some insight into how the car companies are fucking with the dealers. I work in IT. I work in a supercomputing institute with some of the brightest minds of the business. And I can tell you this unequivocally. Making one massive computer program that diagnoses everything is just about the stupidest approach to this . I can only imagine that Ford laid off the guy that originally designed and programmed the on board computer, so no one has a clue how to write a separate program. Why else would they make such a fucked up program? So everything has to go into this massive hulking program that does everything. Because of that you've got a program that is testing your transmission and window motor when all you have is a short in a break light. It's needlessly complicated probably because that same asshole two decades ago chose to program the on board computers with a proprietary system that has become so bloated over the years because the whole friggen thing is built on a house of cards and can't be changed.

Stupid.You have some serious incorrect assumptions here. First off, if I am testing the brake light circuit, that is all the program is doing. It isn't going to be working on the transmission or the window motor. Secondly since you don't really know how the program is setup, I find it hard to believe that you can make a logical criticism of it. For your information, the program runs like a web page using IE. As you go from part of the program to another part of the program it goes from page to page in IE. Very, very similar to how you surf the net. Your complaint is like complaining that your computer is reading Wiki, while you are looking at Bighootersareus.com . Lust like your PC is not reading Wiki while you are surfing porn, my program is not testing the transmission while I am checking a lighting circuit. The program goes through 4-5 major revisions each year, and each revision gets 1-4 updates. Based on that, I don't know how you can say that it can't be changed. In fact it is a very flexible program and has evolved a bunch since it was first introduced. Compared to what I taught with in 1998, you can hardly recognize the 2008 version. Over the years it has become much more user friendly, and much, much more powerful.

Several people have suggested that the diagnostic program be broken up into smaller chunks, or maybe done via a USB stick. OK fair enough, let's talk about this. First off, these chipped keys have their roots back in the very early 1990s. A show of hands please, how many of you were using USB sticks in 1991? Didn't think so. Any system the car company uses has to have some provision for earlier cars. If Volvo were to decide to go to a totally separate stand alone system it presents some interesting challenges. in no particular order:

New hardware to be sent to the field (dealers). Who is going to pay for this?
Technicians have to be trained - Worldwide. Again who pays for this training?
Additional parts have to be stocked, and interest paid on that inventory. Who gets to pay for this inventory?
The hardware/and/or/software in the car itself has to be changed. Who pays for this?
Software to interface between the car and the new hardware has to be written/tested and distributed. Again who will pick up the tab?

Speaking as a dealer, if the car company were to say "Hey we are going to break out the key programming function out of the main program, and make it a stand alone, and it will cost you $X dollars. My response would be FUCK YOU. You have a perfectly functional solution, why are you fucking with it? If it works don't fix it.
From a practical standpoint, every time a new electronic tool is released, it adds complexity to the shop, and sets up Mr. Murphy for a score. Software tools need to be updated. This takes time. Time = money. Somebody always forgets, or doesn't get around to it. Then when you need the latest version, you don't have it because somebody didn't update the program, and basically somebody gets fucked.
Just for the record, let's look at some pictures
A standard key that can be cut damn near anywhere and requires no programing (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/82-83-84-Pontiac-Trans-Am-Ignition-Key-Cylinder-Black_W0QQitemZ220331979734QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20081219?IMSfp=TL0812191110008r14105#ebayphotohostin g)
A "Laser" or side milled cut key (http://plantkeysgb.com/Pictures/COPYWRIGHTED%20SINGLE%20KEYS%201600%20X%201200/Volvo%20copy.jpg). That may or may not have a chip in it. (This key fits some Volvo heavy construction equipment, but it is almost identical to the car version)
The key, and remote combo (http://trademotion.com/partlocator/_inc/getGraphic.cfm?graphic=SFPLImage84820.jpg%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%2 0%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 %20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20% 20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20&siteid=213784&catalogID=3197) I was talking about
looking at the first and last picture some differences should be readily apparent.

The first key is edge cut, the last key is "laser" cut. While it may not be obvious, one of them costs a bunch more to have "cut"
The last key has an integral remote that screws to it
While it may not be obvious, when screwed to a remote, pushing the chrome button allows the key to fold back into the remote. Often called a switchblade key.
The second key is not exactly a stamped chunk of metal and therefore probably costs more than a simple stamped key.




*Ex as in has been, spurt is a squirt under pressure.

Rick
12-27-2008, 07:46 AM
It has been a long and subtle process to get to where we are, but slowly we have become accustomed to this concept of buying keys in ever smaller components, and not once during that process has it been of advantage to the consumer.
I missed this on my read through last night. Most people complain that the car company sells things in larger and larger chunks and that is disadvantageous to the consumer. Such as selling a rebuilt alternator instead of just the brushes.
You on the other hand seem to think that we aren't selling our product in large enough chunks. Taking your idea to its logical extreme, I can picture the following take place at a dealership on your planet.
Customer: My remote stopped working, can I get a new one, or do I have to buy the key part also? Plus while I am at it, can I get a spare key and remote?
Parts guy:No problem. You have to buy both the key and the remote.
Customer: OK roughly how much is that?
Parts guy: $45,000 plus tax and license.
Customer: :eek:
Customer: Isn't that a bit steep?
Parts guy: No, not really, you see we don't just sell you a key and remote, these two remotes come with a brand new car attached.
Customer: But that is stupid! Who thought this was a good idea? I just need a couple of remotes, not a whole car.
Parts guy: Well we used to sell just remotes, but casdave told us we were ripping the consumer off by selling such small pieces, and we should be selling things in larger groups. We want to be customer driven, we took his idea to heart. The largest group of similar parts we could come up with for the remote was an entire new car, so that is the only way we sell remotes now.
Customer: OK, I see. By the way, I have a headlight burned out, how much is a new bulb?
Parts guy: $45,000, and it comes in blue, black, red, and silver. Which color do you want?

The Tao's Revenge
12-27-2008, 08:36 AM
Foam at the mouth much?
Perhaps the reason I disagree with you is one of us has worked in the industry for over 40 years at both independents, dealers, in a parts house and for the factory. The other person is an uninformed interweb "ex-spurt"*. Gee which one of us do you think knows more about this subject?


Ahh logic fail of appeal to authority. Appearently you didn't learn much in those 40 years

Just answer me this since you're the big shot. How come other companies can charge $25 for their chipped keys?

You never seem to answer that. You also seemed quite ashamed of your over priced product since you refuse to name the brands that use this scam.

What's the matter big shot? If it's so good you wouldn't be so ashamed of naming them.

Afraid of scaring business away with the truth?

For your information, the program runs like a web page using IE.


Guess it ain't very secure then is it?


First off, these chipped keys have their roots back in the very early 1990s. A show of hands please, how many of you were using USB sticks in 1991?


Kind of shows the point we're making. Almost 20 years of chipped keys and in that that time we've went from computers with floppies and hard drives measured in tens of megabytes costing $2,000 to dual core systems with gigabytes of ram and terabyte hard drives being under $1000.



Yet auto manufactures couldn't find a way to program keys cheaper. Well some did. Since you can clearly buy $25 chipped keys from the none crooks.

Since we've had 20 years of astounding growth in electronics in everything but chipped keys it's logical to conclude the $150 ones are just obstinate dinosaurs dragging their feet to get extra every penny they can from hard working Americans.


I mean they have a monopoly on making keys for their models. They don't have to innovate. They can just price gauge all they want like common crooks.



New hardware to be sent to the field (dealers). Who is going to pay for this?
Technicians have to be trained - Worldwide. Again who pays for this training?
Additional parts have to be stocked, and interest paid on that inventory. Who gets to pay for this inventory?
The hardware/and/or/software in the car itself has to be changed. Who pays for this?
Software to interface between the car and the new hardware has to be written/tested and distributed. Again who will pick up the tab?




Yet some manufactures apparently did all that just fine since you can get $25 chipped keys. Guess you just work for asshats.


Speaking as a dealer, if the car company were to say "Hey we are going to break out the key programming function out of the main program, and make it a stand alone, and it will cost you $X dollars. My response would be FUCK YOU. You have a perfectly functional solution, why are you fucking with it? If it works don't fix it.


So you're perfectly fine gauging customers and afraid of new technology. Got it.

FoieGrasIsEvil
12-27-2008, 12:04 PM
This thread inspired me to contact my dealership to see how much a replacement for the remote I lost a year ago would be.

$177

Ooh, don't ever buy remotes from the dealership! I had a 1996 Crown Victoria that used to belong to my Grandpa and the original fobs had buttons that were all worn out. So I called the dealership and they quoted me a similar price to yours.

I did a little online searching, found this place: http://keylessride.com/

And purchased TWO new remotes for $75 that had the exact same functionality as the originals.

However, I came to find out that I needed the car's original code (because it had those numerical buttons on the driver's door below the handle) to program the remotes.

So I call Ford again, asking how I can get my code, and they described some expensive ($100), arduous process of hooking the car up to a computer to retrieve the code from the car's computer.

I called keylessride.com and present them with my issue, and they were like "Sir, that code is found on a sticker in your trunk next to the yadda yadda" and I looked, and there it was!

Imagine that, Ford "not knowing" that! Instead of just trying to help me out, they wanted me to come in and spend a bunch of money.

casdave
12-27-2008, 12:44 PM
Quoth Rick

Parts guy: Well we used to sell just remotes, but casdave told us we were ripping the consumer off by selling such small pieces, and we should be selling things in larger groups. We want to be customer driven, we took his idea to heart. The largest group of similar parts we could come up with for the remote was an entire new car, so that is the only way we sell remotes now.
Customer: OK, I see. By the way, I have a headlight burned out, how much is a new bulb?
Parts guy: $45,000, and it comes in blue, black, red, and silver. Which color do you want?


Ahh, the fallacy of the excluded middle, set the terms so that there can only be two extremes and nothing else, not very good debate tactic, but I should not expect that in the pit, however if you are game for sheer stupidity, then I shall join you and see how it works out.

Now to rework that conversation.

Customer - Shucks, I lost my car key, the special programmed key, not one of the drones, how much will that cost me to replace please?
Main Dealer - That will be $45k please
Customer - What? I only want a key, remote, swivel, programming and key cutting - preferably by laser, it should not come to more than $600.
Main Dealer - Well its like this, we have to keep all these other things in stock and avalailable to ensure the safety and security of your car or the insurance companines would not touch it.
Customer - How come some car keys can be replaced for $25 then?
Main Dealer - Well you will find you cannot get one of these keys to work on your car because our designers made very sure that we have control of all aspects of security and marketing.
Customer - So what am I getting for my $45k then?
Main Dealer - Well you forgot to mention the special anti-static bag, you need one for each programmed part, they are $200 apiece - so that's a total of $400 The technician needs to wear the 'one use only' anti-static strap whilst programming your key and remote, there's another $500.
Not only that, we have to charge you $500 for the special lock lubricant so you do not damage your key or car, its essential and we will not sell you a replacement without it.
Also, it costs $1000 for the special instruction card so that you can initiate your card on first use, and you have to pay $1000 for the database so that if you have any sort of problem with your key all the information will be available and will be accurrate.
You will of course have to pay for the extended warranty on these products which is another $1000.........................etc etc etc

Of course, that is the only other possible solution to this conundrum isn't it, and if it looks stupid, well its about as sensible as the fucking idiotic statement you have just made Rick

There's more technology in the average GPS system, and yet somehow the user does not have to cough up $10.8 billions to put the satellite up in the sky, and we could mention the radio, or the mobile phone hookup or plenty of other things, even the materials science involved in manufacturing everything from the engine to the cup holders.

As for he GPS system, I wonder what would happen to the cost of these if it was only the car manufacturers who made them, I also wonder why it is that despite all that technology, warranty, spare parts and back up these do not cost the same as one goddamned key - is it possible that there is some competition that keeps prices down? Is it possible that a car can still be driven even if the GPS system does not work - which means that extrotion is not as readily accomplished?

You bet your sweet little ass it is, and that is the lie to all your justification of this patent rip off, why defend the manufacturers when you are caught up in the crossfire, and as for your earlier point of the numbers of units sold, you are aware that this is a global business right? and that the numbers are far more substantial.Just because the number of replacement keys sold is relatively small, the fact is that the number of original supplied keys must still be provided, and that makes for economies of scale.

FoieGrasIsEvil
12-27-2008, 02:52 PM
Isn't this argument kinda related (noticing the GPS reference) to the one that people had "caught on to" for years regarding factory-installed radios/tape/cd players?

The dealer used to charge a fortune for a so-called "premium" stereo system that was a bunch of speakers with paper woofer cones and crappy Delco head units with zero amplification power and tuner sensitivity. Everyone knew that aftermarket stereos were far cheaper and far better.

Apparently it's only a fairly recent trend to have these "premium" sound systems actually include premium brand name audio equipment, but I'd be willing to bet that it is still way overpriced for what you get.

GargoyleWB
12-27-2008, 02:56 PM
Honestly, does anybody really have a problem with having the "on switch" for their very expensive, slightly mobile toy, be somewhat complicated? Is that really such a horrible problem?

At least once a year I have to self-enable a "key" to my finances and credit. This little plastic gadget, accessing information and money worth much more to me than a silly car, can be replaced free of charge with a simple phone call and I can enable it for use directly from my home. What's even better, if lost the support centers and staff don't charge me an "hourly expert trained technician" fee for their time in pushing a few buttons.

Remember when support and service were included in the price of a car? You've been sold the oldest rationale for customer fleecing in the book, the fact that it is a trivially easy service to provide and is charged so much just makes your position even more absurd.

Rick
12-27-2008, 05:39 PM
For your information, the program runs like a web page using IE.
Guess it ain't very secure then is it? See right here you have shown your ass, and just how ignorant you are, and why you need a hot steaming cup of this (http://voidspace.org.uk/gallery/silly/big_cup_of_STFU.jpg).
here read it again and see if you can spot just where you stepped into a bucket of shit.
For your information, the program runs like a web page using IE.
Guess it ain't very secure then is it?

Still don 't see it? Try the enhanced version below






























For your information, the program runs like a web page using IE.
Guess it ain't very secure then is it? Got it now? See the word like? Since it appears you have no clue what it means, let me help you out.
2. corresponding or agreeing in general or in some noticeable respect; similar; analogous: drawing, painting, and like arts.
3. bearing resemblance.
6. in like manner with; similarly to; in the manner characteristic of: He works like a beaver. You will note that if I say: He works like a beaver, I am not accusing him of being a beaver, just saying he works hard like one. When I say a program runs like a web page that does not mean it is a web page, it is just displayed like a web page. IE is the program that is used to display these pages. Since the program is resident on my hard drive it is quite secure.
Thanks for playing, but you lose.
I am not even going to bother addressing your other head up the ass statements.

However, I came to find out that I needed the car's original code (because it had those numerical buttons on the driver's door below the handle) to program the remotes.

So I call Ford again, asking how I can get my code, and they described some expensive ($100), arduous process of hooking the car up to a computer to retrieve the code from the car's computer.

I called keylessride.com and present them with my issue, and they were like "Sir, that code is found on a sticker in your trunk next to the yadda yadda" and I looked, and there it was!

Imagine that, Ford "not knowing" that! Instead of just trying to help me out, they wanted me to come in and spend a bunch of money. This represents and illustrates a very real problem in our industry (an other industries also) I call it those that don't remember history are doomed to repeat it.
Your car is 13 model years old. There is an excellent chance that the guy that you spoke to at a Ford dealer (Not Ford, but a dealer, there is a difference) was not working or selling parts for Fords 13 years ago. Just how is he supposed to know this bit of trivia? Or if he did work there 13 years ago, he could have forgotten. Contrary to popular belief we don't give our new hires a Vulcan mind meld, so they know everything on day1.
He did know that the number could be retrieved from the car's central computer. I would also like to point out that if the car had been wrecked, and the trunk lid replaced, his would have been the only correct answer. So you have to give him credit for a correct answer, but in your case not the easiest or cheapest answer.

I have seen similar problems in companies where every few years someone new wants to try something that has failed several times in the past. It would make the old timers go :rolleyes:

Of course here in Doperland every parts guy knows the part number for every part on every car every built, and every technician knows every service procedure for every car ever built.

FoieGrasIsEvil
12-27-2008, 05:58 PM
This represents and illustrates a very real problem in our industry (an other industries also) I call it those that don't remember history are doomed to repeat it.
Your car is 13 model years old. There is an excellent chance that the guy that you spoke to at a Ford dealer (Not Ford, but a dealer, there is a difference) was not working or selling parts for Fords 13 years ago. Just how is he supposed to know this bit of trivia? Or if he did work there 13 years ago, he could have forgotten. Contrary to popular belief we don't give our new hires a Vulcan mind meld, so they know everything on day1.
He did know that the number could be retrieved from the car's central computer. I would also like to point out that if the car had been wrecked, and the trunk lid replaced, his would have been the only correct answer. So you have to give him credit for a correct answer, but in your case not the easiest or cheapest answer.

I have seen similar problems in companies where every few years someone new wants to try something that has failed several times in the past. It would make the old timers go :rolleyes:

Of course here in Doperland every parts guy knows the part number for every part on every car every built, and every technician knows every service procedure for every car ever built.

Well, fwiw, I don't own that car anymore, and this issue came about in about 2003, so it was an 8 year old car then (with only 20,000 miles, Grandpa didn't drive it much!). I understand your point, and I don't expect everyone at a dealership to know everything, but I asked the guy "Is that the only way to do this?" and he assured me that it was.

My skepticism arose from the fact that some anonymous dude that I called that worked for a website that sold aftermarket remotes had an instant answer to my question that didn't cost me a cent. AND I got two of their remotes for half the price of ONE from the dealer, and they worked perfectly well.

So....yeah. Rick I am not trying to undermine your wealth of knowledge or experience in this area: I have read many of your car help posts in GQ and find your answers informative.

However, I think the other posters in this thread have a valid complaint with the industry in general in how they set themselves up in a proprietary manner to ensure the flow of dollars in their service/parts sector. I see this in my line of work (carwashing) ALL the time, and almost always I can find a cheaper, viable replacement part from someone other than the original manufacturer. None of which is your fault, per se, as you stated, you're passing along this inflated cost because your business model dictates it and frankly, people will pay it.

It still sucks for the customer though.

control-z
12-27-2008, 06:03 PM
It's just not reasonable to charge over $100 for a key. That's the gist of the problem.

Dog80
12-27-2008, 06:11 PM
There's no reason why multiple models of cars can't share the same remote or at least the same base board with a different plastic cover. I can routinely buy far more complex pieces of equipment with far smaller production runs for far less.

Of course they do share remotes. Not only that, but they don't even bother removing the other brand's logo. http://egmcartech.com/2008/10/30/volvo-badge-found-under-faded-aston-martin-key-fob/

The Tao's Revenge
12-27-2008, 11:14 PM
See right here you have shown your ass, and just how ignorant you are, and why you need a hot steaming cup of this (http://voidspace.org.uk/gallery/silly/big_cup_of_STFU.jpg).
here read it again and see if you can spot just where you stepped into a bucket of shit.



Still don 't see it? Try the enhanced version below


Which browser has the most exploits? Say it with me. Internet Explorer. Google it if you don't believe me. If "the app" is embed in a webpage that runs on IE like you say then it's ActiveX. Which happens to be the reason IE gets cracked by preschoolers still learning their alphabet.


I am not even going to bother addressing your other head up the ass statements.


Because you're too stupid and you don't have any answers. You work using inferior tools and gauge customers. You could be making new keys for $25 but the corprate asses you lick rigged the system to cost 500% that.

I'll take that as an admittance of victory.

mecaenas
12-27-2008, 11:22 PM
I dunno how it works in the US but isn't there another option? Here in Australia the car dealers charge ridiculous fees (if I remember it was ~$200 quote for mine) but there's key cutting shops here that can do the key + immobiliser coding for 1/3 the price. All they needed was the 1 working key I had left and they made me a new one, a proper key just like it was when it came from the factory.

The Tao's Revenge
12-27-2008, 11:36 PM
I dunno how it works in the US but isn't there another option? Here in Australia the car dealers charge ridiculous fees (if I remember it was ~$200 quote for mine) but there's key cutting shops here that can do the key + immobiliser coding for 1/3 the price. All they needed was the 1 working key I had left and they made me a new one, a proper key just like it was when it came from the factory.

That's very interesting. I wonder why they don't have the huge costs Rick mentioned up thread? Rick tries to paint us all as ignorant for not accepting some ungodly fee as reasonable, but yet we have more and more examples of chipped keys being programed real cheap.

slaphead
12-28-2008, 12:12 PM
At least once a year I have to self-enable a "key" to my finances and credit. This little plastic gadget, accessing information and money worth much more to me than a silly car, can be replaced free of charge with a simple phone call and I can enable it for use directly from my home. What's even better, if lost the support centers and staff don't charge me an "hourly expert trained technician" fee for their time in pushing a few buttons.

I have to say in this entire dumb thread, this is the dumbest analogy of all. It couldn't be any dumber if it were carved out of a frozen dog turd and bounced up and down on a pop-up picture book by George W. himself.
Just the plastic on a normal EMV chip card probably costs anywhere between $3-6 depending on the quantity they're ordered in. They're only that cheap because they are an agreed industry standard, manufactured in the hundreds of millions every year. Then add on the cost of actually embossing, issuing and activating the things (probably at least $50 a pop by the time you've paid for everyone involved in the process, often a lot more). Every time you receive a new card, it costs someone somewhere a big fat bundle. The reason you don't get asked to pick up the tab is that the card company gets earns anywhere from $0.50 to $100+ every single time you use it, depending on what you spend - you might not feel the little sting in the sphincter each time, but the merchant certainly does. Does you car manufacturer earn fee income each and every time you use your car key? I sincerely doubt it. They quite probably earn less profit from you than your card company does, so it's hardly surprising they're less generous.

Rick tries to paint us all as ignorant for not accepting some ungodly fee as reasonable, but yet we have more and more examples of chipped keys being programed real cheap.
I'm sure you can find plenty of examples of people's central heating being repaired real cheap too. Does this mean that all central heating repairs can be done in 20 mins using a $9.99 Wal-Mart toolkit? Most likely not. I bet that Evil Rick even charges more for his fancy-shmancy genuine Volvo hubcaps than Walmart does for perfectly serviceable plastic ones. So what? He's entitled to charge whatever he needs to charge to run a profitable business. It's not as if he's holding a gun to anyone's head to force them to buy a Volvo or patronise his dealership. He's already said that all the info you need to make the keys is available from the car manufacturers for a small fee, and that you can easily buy all the tools and software you need to set up your own cut-price key-making emporium. If you think replacement keys are such a goldmine, why don't you pony up a few tens of thousands of dollars to take this business away from them and help out your poor hard-pressed key-deprived dopers?


God, what a pissy pointless bunch of whining. Car manufacturers charge a bunch of money for stuff their customers think should be cheaper, dear sweet lord Jesus have mercy on us all, the end times is nigh.
Where have you people been for the last few decades? I can remember my dad getting into just this kind of grumble 25 years ago about some replacement points for a crappy old Vauxhall Viva or something - one little bit of spring metal with two small metal studs on it which cost Ģ10 or something. If it wasn't that it was paying extra for obscure water-pump parts or bizarre non-standard wrenches to get past the air cleaner to unfasten the third sparkplug or whatever.

If you don't like paying through the nose for stupid little bits which are either unobtainable or cost five times more than the stuff which doesn't void your warranty, then stick to buying cars that can be completely rebuilt from the junkyard for chump change, or start cycling. Until all the car manufacturers in the world get together out of the altruistic goodness of their hearts to form the Global Alliance for Standardising All Car Parts and Making Them Totally Generic you are all shit outta luck, so I suggest you get used to it.


In related news, I had a thoroughly objectionable christmas curtesy of my increasingly bonkers bonkers mother, and I currently hate the universe and everyone in it. HUMBUG, I say. HUMBUG!!!

BubbaDog
12-28-2008, 12:23 PM
I vote the frozen dog turd award to Slaphead for his key replacement /Central heating repair analogy.

GargoyleWB
12-28-2008, 05:48 PM
I have to say in this entire dumb thread, this is the dumbest analogy of all...

What ATM card do you use that charges from .50 ~ 100? Mine has zero charges or fees. But you are missing my point, it has to do with technical complexity vs security vs cost. Somehow, you have fallen for the fallacy that complex==costly. Economies of scale and smart choices in standardization and implementation can reduce cost to a pittance. I'm a design engineer in a high tech industry, and I can ring up one of my production shops and have your latest expensive "laser cut" (makes Dr Evil fingers) key made, even at high prototyping costs, for less than your dealership is fleecing the customers for. Hell, I'll even make it out of titanium. Additional RFID chipping in a plastic fob is pennies.

Let me guess...you must now gladly pay a tow truck driver 10x more because his 2008 truck is more technologically complex than the 1975 truck he's been previously using and he's told you that he is now considered to be an expertly trained technician with high overhead costs.

Rick
12-28-2008, 08:34 PM
What ATM card do you use that charges from .50 ~ 100? Mine has zero charges or fees. But you are missing my point, it has to do with technical complexity vs security vs cost.No you have missed the point. Every time you use that ATM card it costs the merchant somewhere between 1%-3% of the transaction in fees. Cite (http://merchant-accounts.com/merchant_account_rates.html) TINSTAAFL. If the merchant did not have to pay these fees, his selling prices could be lower. If the lunch wasn't "free" the drinks wouldn't cost so much. If you think that banks are any less profit driven, nicer guys, or any more altruistic than car companies, then you are on drugs.
give me 1% of the value of your car every time you start it, and I will be happy to give you a new key every month. Hell, I'd give you a new one every week for that kind of money.
Somehow, you have fallen for the fallacy that complex==costly. Economies of scale and smart choices in standardization and implementation can reduce cost to a pittance. I'm a design engineer in a high tech industry, and I can ring up one of my production shops and have your latest expensive "laser cut" (makes Dr Evil fingers) key made, even at high prototyping costs, for less than your dealership is fleecing the customers for. Hell, I'll even make it out of titanium. Additional RFID chipping in a plastic fob is pennies.Then why don't you do what slaphead suggested, go into business for yourself and drive me out of the key business. After all as the saying goes, build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door.
here is your golden opportunity, knock yourself out.

Omegaman
12-29-2008, 05:55 PM
Let's be realistic, a transponder key is a 5 cent hunk of metal with a probably 50 cent circuit inside. Everything else is just red tape and gouging. Yes, the security of the transponder keys is a great feature, but the car companies took that as an invitation to get their hooks into the dealers and owners by making things overly-complex and expensive.

Another possible option for those down to one transponder key, just make a copy of it to a non-transponder key. Should only cost a couple dollars. Then tape the working transponder key to the underside of your steering column. The car ignition is likely just looking for the presence of a properly coded transponder key. It doesn't necessarily care if that's the same key that's in the ignition. The mere presence of the transponder chip should be enough to convince the car to start with the copy key. Of course there's a security risk from doing this; if someone breaks into your car they have a working key right on the bottom of your steering column. I suppose you could hacksaw off the non-keyfob portion of the transponder key so the crook would at least have to hotwire the car to get it started.

Either way, I would go to great lengths to avoid paying $120 for a key, especially on an older car. This has been known to work on Toyotas and Fords, I don't see why it wouldn't work with any transponder key system that doesn't rely on a physical connection to the transponder chip. If this works, make another copy so you can have at least two working keys outside the car.

I hate to resurrect this shiity thread but I said I would try it and it does work. As long as you have the key in close proximity to the module,which on Chrysler vehicles is in the steering column, it will work with a generic key. I tried it on two chrysler vehicles, both use a magnetic ring that surrounds the key when you insert it in the cylinder, but will still work it it is within 3 inches of said module. Any further and the interrupt will kick in. Just as a caution I will tell you if you try to start the vehicle three times without the key in proper range it will completely lock out all keys incuding the programmed one. You will be able to tell if the vehicle starts and runs for 3 seconds then shuts off. Having the key the programmed with the lock out condition will result in additional time to have a ANY key programmed. It entails putting the vehicle on a battery charger for a mimimum of 1 and 1/2 hours with the driver door open with the key in the igintion.

I'm sure this is just fucking fuel for the fire for the group that thinks their getting ripped off.

Face facts, designing security shit for the masses ain't easy. Because I'm sure you all think you're the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I got news for you. People who figure out how to steal shit are the really sharp ones. Even a dumbass like me can see that.

control-z
12-29-2008, 06:18 PM
Well Omegaman, we're fighting some ignorance at least, even in The Pit.

Santo Rugger
12-29-2008, 10:50 PM
That's very interesting. I wonder why they don't have the huge costs Rick mentioned up thread? Rick tries to paint us all as ignorant for not accepting some ungodly fee as reasonable, but yet we have more and more examples of chipped keys being programed real cheap.It's because he's a complete asshole who doesn't enjoy sharing his knowledge with fellow dopers. He's the kind of guy who wouldn't write up several two page responses to a (seemingly) simple question via PM that has a guy stumped. He's the kind of guy that won't spend time off the clock trying to help complete strangers trouble shooting vehicle problems without even being given a make or year to work with. He's the kind of guy that tries to fuck others out of money; dishonest to say the most of him. In short, he's not at all the type of guy I'd like to have a beer with.


:rolleyes:

GargoyleWB
12-30-2008, 11:52 PM
Then why don't you do what slaphead suggested, go into business for yourself and drive me out of the key business. After all as the saying goes, build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door.
here is your golden opportunity, knock yourself out.

See, that's the root of the problem. Your industry (GM, Ford, et al bailout scroungers) thinks it is in the key business, and tries at every possible opportunity to overcharge for service minutiae that more service-oriented companies discovered decades ago creates an antagonistic relationship with their customers. Few return, and nearly all end up pissed at your brand. Hence, the failed Detroit business model, it is they who have failed spectacularly at building a better product and better service, and have fundamentally forgotten that they do not have a captive domestic market.

Oh, a new chipped Saab key for my car (I called my dealer today) is $30. :p pthpthhh :p

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