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12-30-2008, 05:26 AM
A few months ago, I went to a gas station convenience store. In front of me in line, a group of teenagers and one (slightly) older guy were buying alcohol. The older guy produced valid ID, but the sales clerk wouldn't let him buy the booze because "there were underage people in his car"-- the clerk's words.

Now, obviously, if they'd all stayed outside the clerk probably wouldn't have known, but since the whole group was in line together, they were refused the sale unless EVERYBODY in the group could produce valid ID. They left empty-handed.

In the following weeks, I had several people tell me (anecdotally) about the same issue in other stores, so it's not just a one-time thing with that one particular gas station.

Is this a common phenomenon? Is it legal? If it matters, I'm located in Humboldt County, California.

Wheeljack
12-30-2008, 05:37 AM
Just my $.02... I don't think it's strictly a legal issue, but rather one of liability. I've run into the same problem in Florida, and each time the clerk specifically said that it was the manager's policy, not the law.

Shalmanese
12-30-2008, 05:40 AM
I've seen the same thing happen in a Washington State grocery store.

firstname
12-30-2008, 06:10 AM
A few years ago when i was 17, (legal age is 18 in Australia), the clerk at our local grocery store refused to sell my mother a bottle of wine because i was with her.

Lo-Slung Denim
12-30-2008, 06:30 AM
I'd say it's common. I went to the shop with my friend - she wanted some beers, but I was paying. She put them on the counter and was asked for ID. When I said that I was the one buying them, and I had ID, the guy wouldn't serve us because she had put them on the counter, and she didn't have ID.

For the record, we were both 24, and took it as a massive compliment, then shortly went to a different shop where I put it on the counter myself!

tumbleddown
12-30-2008, 06:34 AM
Some good friends of mine had this problem last week, they're a married couple. She's 24, but looks young, he's 28. They were doing all of their grocery shopping for their Christmas celebrations, and had included a couple of bottles of wine. Because they were obviously together, she was asked to show her ID even though the husband was paying for the transaction and had his. She had left her purse at home, so no ID, and so they were refused the sale of the wine. This was in West Virginia.

Martini Enfield
12-30-2008, 07:03 AM
A few months ago, I went to a gas station convenience store. In front of me in line, a group of teenagers and one (slightly) older guy were buying alcohol. The older guy produced valid ID, but the sales clerk wouldn't let him buy the booze because "there were underage people in his car"-- the clerk's words.

Now, obviously, if they'd all stayed outside the clerk probably wouldn't have known, but since the whole group was in line together, they were refused the sale unless EVERYBODY in the group could produce valid ID. They left empty-handed.

In the following weeks, I had several people tell me (anecdotally) about the same issue in other stores, so it's not just a one-time thing with that one particular gas station.

Is this a common phenomenon? Is it legal? If it matters, I'm located in Humboldt County, California.

That's the law here in Queensland. Everyone in the group- including people sitting in a car outside that the staff believe are part of the same group- must produce ID to purchase alcohol.

The idea, obviously, is to stop alcohol being supplied to minors by older relatives or friends.

It's problematic when we get parents obviously buying alcohol for their under-18 kids who are in the store with them, but in these cases we get the parent to swear that the alcohol is for them and it's not going to their kids. Then we write the incident up in the Responsible Service of Alcohol Register, so we're covered if Liquor Licensing decide to jump out and go "Aha! Gotcha!"

We have been known to refuse sales where the alcohol is obviously for the teenager, though (ie, we've seen them pointing the alcohol they want out, or the teenager is the one carrying the alcohol and Mum or Dad have just come in from the car to pay for it, or the parents try and use the son or daughter's EFTPOS card to pay for it, or that sort of thing.)

I should mention that there's generally no problems with (older) teenagers having a couple of drinks in a private, supervised environment, like having a glass of wine/beer with dinner at home or having a couple of drinks at a wedding or whatever, but unsupervised binge drinking is a problem in Australia and I agree completely with the RSA legislation's aims.

(FTR, the drinking age here is 18.)

Basically, if you're under 18, stay the hell out of liquor stores in Australia. Even if you're with your parents, it's still a pain in the ass for everyone concerned, IMHO.

Chef Troy
12-30-2008, 07:11 AM
Wow. I've never heard of such a thing. Heck, here in Texas, underage people can drink in a bar as long as they're with either a parent or spouse who's over 21. The parent or spouse has to buy the drink and serve it to the minor him- or herself.

Joey P
12-30-2008, 07:12 AM
In Milwaukee it's becoming more popular to do that as well. If you live in a college town (Milwaukee, Eau Claire, Kenosha etc) you quickly learn that if any of your friends are underage (or overage but without an ID) you need to split up and use different registers long before you get anywhere near the cashier.
Chef Troy Drinking with a spouse or parent is a compleatly different issue then buying alcohol at a store with your friends.

even sven
12-30-2008, 07:16 AM
Totally a liability issue. If a clerk gets caught in any way providing liquor to minors they can end up personally responsible for fines (IIRC in California it is around $10,000) and the store will end up with huge fines. One mistake can ruin a life, so people are really super careful.

Harmonious Discord
12-30-2008, 07:45 AM
I've seen threads where clerks talk about having to deny alcohol and cigarettes to adults, because the clerk has reason to believe they are with a minor or intend to give it to minor. Once they see a minor your not getting the alcohol by sending the minors to the car. When they see you get out of a car with minors your not getting the alcohol.

Ethilrist
12-30-2008, 07:45 AM
I've read accounts of people who were refused service like this, drove away, came back without the minor, and were still refused service.

DSYoungEsq
12-30-2008, 08:03 AM
Nothing illegal about it, by the way. Most stores retain the right to refuse service to pretty much anyone at anytime (other than for illegal reasons like racial discrimination, etc.). In other words, you don't have the right to buy alcohol, regardless of your age.

I seriously doubt that it is the law of any jurisdiction that you can't sell alcohol to someone who is accompanied by a person who doesn't produce ID proving they are of drinking age. What, you can't sell to a mother who has a baby with her? You can't sell to a father with is five-year-old son with him? Nonsense. So, Martini Enfield, before I accept your assertion that that is the law in Queensland, I'd need to see some proof, like a citation to the law in question. :)

Mogle
12-30-2008, 08:46 AM
I seriously doubt that it is the law of any jurisdiction that you can't sell alcohol to someone who is accompanied by a person who doesn't produce ID proving they are of drinking age.

I don't know about Queensland but I suspect they may have a law that is similar to the one we have in Sweden which prohibit the sale of alcohol if there is reason to assume that the person making the purchase intend to pass it on to someone who is underage.

muldoonthief
12-30-2008, 09:09 AM
I bring one or more of my kids into a liquor store(s) all the time, and I've never had a problem. They're pretty young though, 8, 6, & 4, so I doubt the clerk thinks I'm buying beer or rye for them.

Ferret Herder
12-30-2008, 09:16 AM
Wow. I've never heard of such a thing. Heck, here in Texas, underage people can drink in a bar as long as they're with either a parent or spouse who's over 21. The parent or spouse has to buy the drink and serve it to the minor him- or herself.
That's true in Wisconsin too (last I checked, it's been years since I lived there) but they're still strict at liquor stores. At least in a bar, the bartender can cut people off, unlike if you're taking alcohol elsewhere.

Some stores are stricter than others, too; my husband and I (both mid-30s) were unable to buy alcohol in a major supermarket chain in Wisconsin because due to their policy, they would not take an ID from another state. :confused: It's not like we were producing some far-away state's ID either, we live in Illinois, so I suspect they'd be likely to see a few of those, but no dice, not even talking to a manager did the trick.

ZenBeam
12-30-2008, 09:17 AM
Some good friends of mine had this problem last week, they're a married couple. She's 24, but looks young, he's 28. They were doing all of their grocery shopping for their Christmas celebrations, and had included a couple of bottles of wine. Because they were obviously together, she was asked to show her ID even though the husband was paying for the transaction and had his. She had left her purse at home, so no ID, and so they were refused the sale of the wine. This was in West Virginia.I think the proper response here (well, throughout this thread) is to just leave, and let the store deal with all the stuff brought to the register.

AHunter3
12-30-2008, 09:49 AM
Merchants have no obligation to sell to you, so many of them create and impose their own bullshit rules.

I was a college student with no car, living in a different state from the one from which my unused driver's license was issued, and, having no interest in standing in long lines at DMV, hadn't bothered to obtain a NYS license.

Nearest 7-11 type store would not sell me beer. "We don't take that, it's got to be a New York State driver's license".

"Umm, I'm not trying to drive a car. It's valid proof of age." (And I'm 30)

"New York State license only. NEXT!"


Personally, I don't think merchants should have the right to refuse to sell to people. Either you're in business or you're not.

Joey P
12-30-2008, 09:54 AM
There's a store in Kenosha that makes you sign a book stating that you won't give your alcohol to a minor. Many years ago someone bought some beer, gave it to a minor (or maybe she was at a party). She ended up getting drunk, getting into a car accident and dying. The family sued the store where the alcohol was purchased even though it was a someone of age who purchased it. Again though, I think that's part of living in a college town.

Folly
12-30-2008, 09:56 AM
I got a little pissy* once for getting carded while in line with a friend of mine. The thing is we were buying a mixer for drinks, no alcohol involved.



*Ok, I was laughing a bit when he got carded, but then got annoyed when I was made to dig out my ID.

even sven
12-30-2008, 10:00 AM
I think the proper response here (well, throughout this thread) is to just leave, and let the store deal with all the stuff brought to the register.

Because state law is the clerk's fault? :confused: Clerks can be arrested and personally responsible for huge financial penalties if they sell to minors. And there are frequent sting operations where police try to trip people up. Why would you even think of making some poor clerk's life more difficult because he wants to do what it takes to keep his job and not get in trouble with the law?

Sunspace
12-30-2008, 10:05 AM
Some stores are stricter than others, too; my husband and I (both mid-30s) were unable to buy alcohol in a major supermarket chain in Wisconsin because due to their policy, they would not take an ID from another state. :confused: Good thing I didn't try that when I was in Wisconsin. I'm Canadian.

Acsenray
12-30-2008, 10:09 AM
For the record, we were both 24, and took it as a massive compliment, then shortly went to a different shop where I put it on the counter myself!

I don't understand. Why didn't she just show her ID? What kind of 24-year-old doesn't carry ID?

Ferret Herder
12-30-2008, 10:19 AM
Good thing I didn't try that when I was in Wisconsin. I'm Canadian.
It's a chain (or maybe store-by-store, I think they claimed it was for their chain) policy, not state law or anything. We've bought alcohol from some other chain groceries and various liquor stores in Wisconsin, but don't go to this place (Piggly Wiggly) if we need alcohol.

At that time, we left the alcohol (and groceries, for that matter) and ended up in a nearby liquor store that has an amazing selection. The owners know us even though we only go there a few times a year, recommend beer that we might like, and generally act like we are very welcome customers and that our out-of-state IDs are not an inconvenience to them.

ZenBeam
12-30-2008, 10:23 AM
Because state law is the clerk's fault? :confused: Clerks can be arrested and personally responsible for huge financial penalties if they sell to minors. And there are frequent sting operations where police try to trip people up. Why would you even think of making some poor clerk's life more difficult because he wants to do what it takes to keep his job and not get in trouble with the law?They're not refusing to sell to minors, they're refusing to sell to people who are of legal age. A man who's with his wife who's also of legal age, but doesn't happen to have her ID. A woman who's with her own daughter.

Yorikke
12-30-2008, 10:30 AM
I've had to do this, as a clerk. I assure you, unless we're in a terrible mood, we hate it as much as you do. We don't generally want confrontation. And if you don't make it obvious, I'll let you go. But don't take a group of 16-year-olds back to the beer, have a fricking pow-wow, and send the 21-year-old up to the counter...

Joe

johnspartan
12-30-2008, 10:40 AM
Have seen this and been part of it too, in FL. Actually I can go one step worse. I was in a liquor store for my 21st birthday trying to buy PLASTIC CHAMPAGNE FLUTES. No liquor at all, just plastic glasses because my older brother had bought a bottle of champagne for the occasion. Clerk wouldn't sell them to me because one of my friends was 1 month short of 21 (and I even explained he was on antibiotics and honestly wouldn't be doing any drinking of the liquor we weren't buying!!)

As someone else said, stores generally have and reserve the right to refuse service. State laws, I believe, are written to give even MORE discretion, and indeed responsibility, to clerks when it comes to selling alcohol.

Joey P
12-30-2008, 11:05 AM
They're not refusing to sell to minors, they're refusing to sell to people who are of legal age. A man who's with his wife who's also of legal age, but doesn't happen to have her ID. A woman who's with her own daughter.
Bolding mine.

That's the problem. It doesn't matter if it's his 30 year old wife. If she can't prove it, she might as well be is 20 year old next door neighbor. On top of that if the store/city/county/state/whatever has a law or policy forbidding clerks to sell to a group of people when not all of them are 21 years old, then that's that. There's not much point in fighting it.

ETA, in your example it's really no different then the person buying the alcohol not having their ID. In some stores in Wisconsin, they card EVERY SINGLE PERSON, EVERY TIME. If you were a 75 year old man, walked into a store, purchased some beer with your ID, set it down in your car (with your wallet) and walked back in to the same cashier for some cigarettes and didn't have your ID this time, you'd get turned down.

burundi
12-30-2008, 11:06 AM
I've seen it happen in North Carolina. I'm with even sven and wheresgeorge04. It's a minor annoyance, but it's not the check-out person's fault.

ZenBeam
12-30-2008, 11:29 AM
Bolding mine.

That's the problem. It doesn't matter if it's his 30 year old wife. If she can't prove it, she might as well be is 20 year old next door neighbor. On top of that if the store/city/county/state/whatever has a law or policy forbidding clerks to sell to a group of people when not all of them are 21 years old, then that's that. There's not much point in fighting it.

ETA, in your example it's really no different then the person buying the alcohol not having their ID. In some stores in Wisconsin, they card EVERY SINGLE PERSON, EVERY TIME. If you were a 75 year old man, walked into a store, purchased some beer with your ID, set it down in your car (with your wallet) and walked back in to the same cashier for some cigarettes and didn't have your ID this time, you'd get turned down.So what if it is my 20 year old neighbor? I'm in my 40s, and I'm responsible for my own actions. She's an adult also. I don't need some store clerk accusing me of being about to commit a crime.

If a store wants to have a "card everyone all the time policy", they can. If I want to have a "if you refuse to sell alcohol to me, a legal adult with valid ID, I won't patronize your store" policy, I can. I don't see why I'm somehow obligated to buy other things there, or to help them restock their shelves.

Finally, he statement you made that I bolded is simply false. It's false because they know that the person purchasing the alcohol (me) is old enough, because I show them my ID.

I've seen it happen in North Carolina. I'm with even sven and wheresgeorge04. It's a minor annoyance, but it's not the check-out person's fault. It's certainly not my fault.

Bricker
12-30-2008, 11:39 AM
Hapened to me in Virginia. I was 19, buying beer. At that time Virginia had just changed the legal age for beer and wine from 18 to 21, but those that were 18 before the law changed were grandfathered in. So I was legally purchasing beer, but with a friend who was 18 and legally barred from the purchase. The clerk knew me from (many) previous purchases and rang up the sale. Outside the 7-11 we were stopped by two men who produced shields identifying them as agents of the Virginia ABC and demanded to see my ID. I produced it. Then they asked for my friend's ID, and when they saw he was under age, dragged us both back inside and wrote the clerk a ticket for selling without verifying age. I told the clerk that I would be happy to come and testify on his behalf that I had purchased from him many times before and he knew me on site, but I never heard anything more from him...

mnemosyne
12-30-2008, 12:00 PM
Some stores are stricter than others, too; my husband and I (both mid-30s) were unable to buy alcohol in a major supermarket chain in Wisconsin because due to their policy, they would not take an ID from another state

Random story:

We went to a restaurant in Ontario with a couple of friends when we were all 20+ (legal age is 19), and got carded when we ordered beer. We each pull out our driver's licenses and hand them over:

Friend A: Ontario license (http://welcomework.com/images/driverslicence.jpg)
Friend B: New York State license (http://boortz.com/images/ny_drivers_license.jpg)
Husband: Current format (http://andyriga.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/tintin.gif) of Québec permanent driver's license
Me: Older format (http://moto-net.com/images/quebec/permis.jpg) of Québec permanent driver's license

Waiter: :confused::confused::confused:

He ended up consulting with his manager for about 15 minutes, while they flipped through a 3-ring binder which must have had samples of ID from various states and provinces. Eventually they served us our beer and thanked us for the education session!


ETA: Québec licenses don't actually say "Date of Birth" on them - you have to know that the birthdate is part of the License number. In the case of Tintin (Current format), the birthday is December 17, 1966. This also confused several waiters and liquor store clerks while we were living in Southern Ontario!

pkbites
12-30-2008, 12:09 PM
Wow. I've never heard of such a thing. Heck, here in Texas, underage people can drink in a bar as long as they're with either a parent or spouse who's over 21. The parent or spouse has to buy the drink and serve it to the minor him- or herself.


That's the law in Wisconsin, too (and yes, it is still the law) but that does not mean an establishment has to let a minor drink, or even let them in just because they are with their parent or spouse. Businesses have the right to refuse service.

erleichda
12-30-2008, 12:42 PM
Questions like these are why I hate being a cashier. I don't make the laws OR store policy, but I will be fired, fined and possibly jailed for violating them. I live in Washington state and I have seen clerks go to jail over this. Sorry, but people that think that their desire to purchase alcohol any time and anywhere beats my need to have a job are idiots. Complain to management, work to change your state laws, but leave the salesclerks out of it!

Manda JO
12-30-2008, 12:57 PM
The problem here is often compounded by the fact that people are often unclear about exactly what the law is, what the store policy is, and what is urban legend: even the people working at the store, managers and clerks alike, may be unclear on this. If both the laws and policies were clearly stated up front, it'd be much easier to deal with.

joyfool
12-30-2008, 01:37 PM
Have seen this and been part of it too, in FL. Actually I can go one step worse. I was in a liquor store for my 21st birthday trying to buy PLASTIC CHAMPAGNE FLUTES. No liquor at all, just plastic glasses because my older brother had bought a bottle of champagne for the occasion. Clerk wouldn't sell them to me because one of my friends was 1 month short of 21 (and I even explained he was on antibiotics and honestly wouldn't be doing any drinking of the liquor we weren't buying!!)

Anyone have any idea why they were denied buying plastic champagne glasses? The others I can see the reasoning behind, but this one has me completely stumped, especially since there was no alcohol involved.

muldoonthief
12-30-2008, 01:47 PM
Because state law is the clerk's fault? :confused: Clerks can be arrested and personally responsible for huge financial penalties if they sell to minors. And there are frequent sting operations where police try to trip people up. Why would you even think of making some poor clerk's life more difficult because he wants to do what it takes to keep his job and not get in trouble with the law?

So you're suggesting that if I, as a person old enough to buy alcohol and with ID to prove same, walk into a liquor store but am prevented from making a purchase because I'm with my wife, who is also old enough but didn't bring her purse with her, it becomes MY responsibility to put the alcohol back on the shelves? If a clerk won't sell to me, I'm not going to get into a pissing match with him, but unless they have a large flashing sign at the entrance that says "WARNING! ALL persons entering this store must provide valid ID on request before a purchase can be made!! Even if you're not the one actually buying the alcohol!" I don't think restocking the shelves becomes my responsibility.

Markxxx
12-30-2008, 01:53 PM
I was in Dominicks (a grocery store in Chicago owned by Safeway) and the person in front of me was buying beer and the lady cashier said "Sorry I can't sell you that, because of the young man." He was like "That's my son." And she explained store policy is that when an underage person is with someone they don't sell them liquor.

So the guy said "If I had my son wait outside though, you'd have sold it to me?" And she says "Yes," So he says "OK go wait outside." And the cashier says "Sorry too late I already saw you."

The guy was pretty disgusted but left without buying anything.

I asked the cashier about it and she said it wasn't a law but a STORE policy and that they send around people to test them, so they have to be extra careful or they will lose their jobs

tumbleddown
12-30-2008, 02:09 PM
I think the proper response here (well, throughout this thread) is to just leave, and let the store deal with all the stuff brought to the register.

I imagine that if it hadn't been a $250+ grocery order to cook a meal for 20+ people for a holiday, she would've thrown a strop. It was easier to let them put the wine back, take the groceries and go get the wine someplace cheaper, later.

And actually, at the second place, my friend got some hassle because she's very visibly pregnant, but at least they didn't refuse to sell it to her.:smack:

Joey P
12-30-2008, 03:00 PM
Anyone have any idea why they were denied buying plastic champagne glasses? The others I can see the reasoning behind, but this one has me completely stumped, especially since there was no alcohol involved.

My WAG, they are probably purchased by the liquor department and when they are sold the liquor department gets the money for them. Now, that wouldn't normally be a big deal BUT if the store uses a barcode scanner to ring things up and the glasses are coded as 'liquor' or 'wine' or something along those lines, then the cashier has to ask for an ID. It's not really up to the cashier to make a judgement call about the actual item.

Also, you can put the policy up on the wall, clear as day, it won't stop people from arguing with the cashier over it.

Freudian Slit
12-30-2008, 03:02 PM
I was in Dominicks (a grocery store in Chicago owned by Safeway) and the person in front of me was buying beer and the lady cashier said "Sorry I can't sell you that, because of the young man." He was like "That's my son." And she explained store policy is that when an underage person is with someone they don't sell them liquor.

So the guy said "If I had my son wait outside though, you'd have sold it to me?" And she says "Yes," So he says "OK go wait outside." And the cashier says "Sorry too late I already saw you."

That's a lame policy. How long before it "resets"? That is, I assume if the man came back the next day without his son he could buy beer. What if he left and came back an hour later, would that be okay? Bizarre.

control-z
12-30-2008, 03:06 PM
This seems very silly to me. Who cares who's with the person buying alcohol? It's presumably going to a house somewhere, where a variety of people from age 0 to 99 will be.

A clerk refused to sell an ex-girlfriend strawberry daiquiri mix because she was underage. Just the mix, no alcohol. She doesn't even drink.

alphaboi867
12-30-2008, 03:17 PM
They're not refusing to sell to minors, they're refusing to sell to people who are of legal age. A man who's with his wife who's also of legal age, but doesn't happen to have her ID. A woman who's with her own daughter.

Please tell us how the clerk's supposed to know if someone is of legal age without carding them. :rolleyes: Or if that really was his wife or her daughter. You don't seriously expect them to risk their job on the customer's word, do you? It is better to lose a sale than risking breaking the law (exact quote from our handbook). Not only will I be fired for a 1st offence, my manager will be terminated if our store get's 3 violations in a 24 month period (whether he's present when they occured or not).

alphaboi867
12-30-2008, 03:28 PM
So you're suggesting that if I, as a person old enough to buy alcohol and with ID to prove same, walk into a liquor store but am prevented from making a purchase because I'm with my wife, who is also old enough but didn't bring her purse with her, it becomes MY responsibility to put the alcohol back on the shelves?...

No, of course it's not your responsibility to put it back on the shelfs. The clerk should simply remove the items from the counter and ring up the rest of your order. They can be put pack later. You're also perfectly free to leave without buying anything as long as you don't argue, curse, throw stuff, or spit at the cashier (all of which I've had happen).

control-z
12-30-2008, 03:33 PM
Suppose the minor was 2 years old. Would that make a difference? How about 8? 12? 14? What's the lower limit of the prohibited range?

Lo-Slung Denim
12-30-2008, 03:39 PM
I don't understand. Why didn't she just show her ID? What kind of 24-year-old doesn't carry ID?

She doesn't have a driver's licence, and I do. Driver's licence and passport are the most common IDs to have in the UK, very few people carry their passport. That means if you don't have a driver's licence, you have to suck it up if you're ID'd. I don't know anyone that carries any other ID - when kids hit 18 I think they show off their passport like a badge to get booze, but a few years later...I imagine most people aged above roughly 20 don't get asked for it enough to cart round their passport.

muldoonthief
12-30-2008, 03:41 PM
No, of course it's not your responsibility to put it back on the shelfs. The clerk should simply remove the items from the counter and ring up the rest of your order. They can be put pack later. You're also perfectly free to leave without buying anything as long as you don't argue, curse, throw stuff, or spit at the cashier (all of which I've had happen).

Zen Beam's statement:

I think the proper response here (well, throughout this thread) is to just leave, and let the store deal with all the stuff brought to the register.

followed by even sven's reply:

Because state law is the clerk's fault? Clerks can be arrested and personally responsible for huge financial penalties if they sell to minors. And there are frequent sting operations where police try to trip people up. Why would you even think of making some poor clerk's life more difficult because he wants to do what it takes to keep his job and not get in trouble with the law?

No mention of arguing, cursing, throwing, or spitting, yet even sven appears to believe that walking out the door makes the clerk's life more difficult. Perhaps it does, but I don't see where that's the buyer's problem. If a store refuses to sell ANY merchandise, for WHATEVER reason, to a customer, I in no way see where the customer has to restock it.

DSYoungEsq
12-30-2008, 04:18 PM
I don't know about Queensland but I suspect they may have a law that is similar to the one we have in Sweden which prohibit the sale of alcohol if there is reason to assume that the person making the purchase intend to pass it on to someone who is underage.

That's different than asserting that there is a law that precludes selling alcohol to anyone accompanied by someone who is either a minor or without identification proving they are not a minor. ;)

Stores do NOT have to have such policies. It's perfectly possible to have a more customer friendly policy that still results in avoiding sale of alcohol to proxies for minors. But it's like counting athletes for Title IX: you can prove compliance other ways, but counting athletes is easy and much harder to screw up. So that's what most institutions do. Similarly, a store with a policy that says: do NOT sell to anyone accompanied by someone who can't prove they are not a minor will be much less likely to fall afoul state liquor laws than one that allows its clerks discretion. :(

Joey P
12-30-2008, 04:23 PM
[b]
If a store refuses to sell ANY merchandise, for WHATEVER reason, to a customer, I in no way see where the customer has to restock it.

So If I, a 15 year old kid, get $100 worth of odds and ends and the supermarket and then go to check out, I should just walk away and abandon my cart when the cashier refuses to sell me cigarettes?

PS I'm not 15.

PPS, I'm not agreeing OR disagreeing with your statement, just asking a question.

Acsenray
12-30-2008, 04:47 PM
She doesn't have a driver's licence, and I do. Driver's licence and passport are the most common IDs to have in the UK, very few people carry their passport. That means if you don't have a driver's licence, you have to suck it up if you're ID'd. I don't know anyone that carries any other ID - when kids hit 18 I think they show off their passport like a badge to get booze, but a few years later...I imagine most people aged above roughly 20 don't get asked for it enough to cart round their passport.

In the United States, the same agencies that issue driver's licenses also issue "state identification cards" ("non-driver" licenses). Every adult I know who isn't licensed to drive has one of these I.D. cards.

Markxxx
12-30-2008, 04:53 PM
My guess is a lot of stores simply want to avoid litigation. It's a lot easier to refuse a few sales than it is to defend a lawsuit. Even if you win, it costs a lot to defend.

I have actually posted opinions on sites and have people threaten me with legal action if I don't remove them. I told them "Take it up with the owner of the site, and if you want to go ahead sue me, but I'll counter sue for costs." Nothing is ever done, but I can imagine how many people get scared of threats and comply.

tumbleddown
12-30-2008, 05:09 PM
Suppose the minor was 2 years old. Would that make a difference? How about 8? 12? 14? What's the lower limit of the prohibited range?

That's my question too. So a mother who brings her strong 16 year old son along to help with the heavy bags is penalized and cannot buy a bottle of wine to enjoy at dinner with her husband, but a father who can carry all the bags and has a 1 year old in a sling on his chest is okay? Or are they both told sorry, you can't have booze if you've got a kid, period? So then we're just penalizing parents. :(

bdgr
12-30-2008, 05:36 PM
Wow. I've never heard of such a thing. Heck, here in Texas, underage people can drink in a bar as long as they're with either a parent or spouse who's over 21. The parent or spouse has to buy the drink and serve it to the minor him- or herself.

Thats technically true, but most bars wont let the kid drink anyway. If they parent gets up to go to the bathroom the bartender/waitress isupposed to take the drinks off the table until the parent returns. It's a big hassle and liability for the bar and none of the bars I bounced for would allow it.

I had to take the texas alcholic beverage class and we were were taught that if we saw minors in the car or with the buyer not to sell it to them. I turned down dozens of people buying beer for that reason back in college....of course it's been a couple of decades but I understand it's still the law. If you sell beer to someone who gives it to a minor, and the TABC can reasonably assume you knew about it you go to jail and usually lose your job.

Hazle Weatherfield
12-30-2008, 05:44 PM
Merchants have no obligation to sell to you, so many of them create and impose their own bullshit rules.

I was a college student with no car, living in a different state from the one from which my unused driver's license was issued, and, having no interest in standing in long lines at DMV, hadn't bothered to obtain a NYS license.

Nearest 7-11 type store would not sell me beer. "We don't take that, it's got to be a New York State driver's license".

"Umm, I'm not trying to drive a car. It's valid proof of age." (And I'm 30)

"New York State license only. NEXT!"


Personally, I don't think merchants should have the right to refuse to sell to people. Either you're in business or you're not.


It used to be the same way in Texas (this was 10+ years ago, not sure if it's still the case.) I drove from Illinois out to Dallas to live with my brother for a few months. It wasn't a permanent situation, so I didn't feel the need to get a Texas driver's license. It wasn't necessary, but it sure made buying booze a PITA! If I was lucky enough to get a clerk who "knew" me (but I'm sure he still could've gotten in big trouble by his boss,) he'd go ahead and let it slide; otherwise, I was SOL. It sucked, because we lived in a dry county, so I would stop off on my way home from work, which was quite a distance from our apt.

bdgr
12-30-2008, 06:14 PM
The problem here is often compounded by the fact that people are often unclear about exactly what the law is, what the store policy is, and what is urban legend: even the people working at the store, managers and clerks alike, may be unclear on this. If both the laws and policies were clearly stated up front, it'd be much easier to deal with.

at places I worked we had a little alch bev code book to read during down times. I read the thing front to back and new the code better than most of the cops who came in. Texas has some wierd laws.

bdgr
12-30-2008, 06:18 PM
as for the out of state license thing...

When someone moves in from out of state and they get an in state id, they now have an extra out of state id to give to their younger sibling to use to buy beer. Therefore the law in many places is that the only id accepted is a current, in state issued id card. the cops don't care if the person had a fake id, if the clerk sells to them, the clerk goes to jail...therefore many businesses have even stricter rules than the state law.

Pasta
12-30-2008, 06:28 PM
That's my question too. So a mother who brings her strong 16 year old son along to help with the heavy bags is penalized and cannot buy a bottle of wine to enjoy at dinner with her husband, but a father who can carry all the bags and has a 1 year old in a sling on his chest is okay? Or are they both told sorry, you can't have booze if you've got a kid, period? So then we're just penalizing parents. :(
I would imagine the clerk would serve these folks without issue. They don't have to invoke the policy, but if it's there, they can use it when they need it. (The clerks aren't robots and presumably understand the contextual difference between (A) a 38 year old woman buying wine with her 16 year old son and (B) a gaggle of 15-18 year old boys buying a case of Bud.)

drachillix
12-30-2008, 06:42 PM
Personally, I don't think merchants should have the right to refuse to sell to people. Either you're in business or you're not.

BATF and similar state agencies impose restrictions on the merchant on how they handle the sale. Just like our many discussions of arrest by store security, store policy usually exceeds the law by a wide margin to make sure there is little if any liability in the event of a failure to comply fully with store policy.

joyfool
12-30-2008, 06:54 PM
My WAG, they are probably purchased by the liquor department and when they are sold the liquor department gets the money for them. Now, that wouldn't normally be a big deal BUT if the store uses a barcode scanner to ring things up and the glasses are coded as 'liquor' or 'wine' or something along those lines, then the cashier has to ask for an ID. It's not really up to the cashier to make a judgement call about the actual item.

Thanks Joey. That makes more sense than I could come up with.

Martini Enfield
12-30-2008, 07:21 PM
I seriously doubt that it is the law of any jurisdiction that you can't sell alcohol to someone who is accompanied by a person who doesn't produce ID proving they are of drinking age. What, you can't sell to a mother who has a baby with her? You can't sell to a father with is five-year-old son with him? Nonsense. So, Martini Enfield, before I accept your assertion that that is the law in Queensland, I'd need to see some proof, like a citation to the law in question. :)

The relevant legislation is section 156 of the Liquor Act 1992 (QLD) (http://legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/L/LiquorA92.pdf) (.PDF), which states (in part):


(1) A person must not, on premises to which a licence or permit
relates—
(a) supply liquor to; or
(b) permit or allow liquor to be supplied to; or
(c) allow liquor to be consumed by;
a person who—
(d) is a minor; or
(e) is unduly intoxicated or disorderly.

The "premises to which a licence or permit relates" bit means "A premises licensed to sell alcohol"- ie a hotel bar, pub, bottle shop, liquor barn, restaurant, etc.

Minors are allowed to be in on licensed premises whilst being supervised by a "responsible adult" (basically, Mum, Dad, or someone old enough to be their parents who can exercise control over the minor- NOT an older brother or sister or cousin). There's absolutely no problem with kids under about 13 being in the store with their parents- the sale would just go through without any questions.

The problem is the "Permit or allow liquor to be supplied to" clause of the legislation, which makes the licensed premises liable if they reasonably suspect the alcohol is for a minor and do not take appropriate steps.

So, a 38 year old Mum with a 16 year old son buying a single bottle of wine, and saying it's for her only, then we'll write the incident up and let the sale through. 42 year old Dad with a 17 year old daughter buying a case of Guava-flavoured Vodka Cruisers, a couple of bottles of Passion Pop, and Premixed "Cowboy" cocktails? We're likely going to refuse the sale unless the daughter can prove she's 18.

And before anyone asks, if the Dad had come in on his own and purchased the same stuff, we'd just put the sale through. The presence of the minor is what creates the "reasonable doubt" in our minds that the alcohol is for him, or that he's only supplying it to other adults at a party.

All this is covered in the Responsible Service of Alcohol courses, which staff in licensed premises are legally required to undertake before they can work there. It's not company policy or staff wanting to be assholes to stop people getting liquor- it's the law, and the fines are fucking expensive, and enough to bankrupt most people. The Licence Nominee can get fined something like $30,000 personally, even if they were on holiday in Thailand at the time one of their staff sold alcohol to a minor. It's not worth the risk, and retail staff (who are just like anyone else and need a job to pay the bills) are not going to risk those fines and other life-ruining consequences just because some 17 year old wanted a four-pack of Bacardi Breezers.

Incidentally, yes, we have had people complain to both our head office and Liquor Licensing about being refused service when they were with their teenaged minor children, and in every. single. case, both head office and Liquor Licensing have stood behind us 100% and said we did the right thing by refusing the sale.

bdgr
12-30-2008, 07:25 PM
I would imagine the clerk would serve these folks without issue. They don't have to invoke the policy, but if it's there, they can use it when they need it. (The clerks aren't robots and presumably understand the contextual difference between (A) a 38 year old woman buying wine with her 16 year old son and (B) a gaggle of 15-18 year old boys buying a case of Bud.)

having had teenage employees....You have to make it really concrete or you get things like "I thought that guy with the tattoos WAS his dad...."

since there is no way to make someone PROVE that it's their kid....you just make a blanket policy.

Koxinga
12-30-2008, 07:54 PM
Related thread (http://boards.academicpursuits.us/sdmb/showthread.php?t=438430&highlight=TABC) where a guy whinges that he got kicked out of a bar because he couldnt' remember the address listed on the drivers license he presented.

As I said then:

If it helps, try to understand what they're paranoid about.

Not "Homeland Security".

Not terrorism.

No, what they truly, truly fear--no joke--is . . .

.

.

.

.

.

The Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission (or your own state's variant thereof). You never see black helicopters from the CIA hovering around, but you do--oh, most definitely, you *do*--encounter undercover TABC agents looking to fine your ass, your boss's ass, have you fired, and unlikely ever to work in the same job again.

Anecdote: I once walked into my neighborhood convenience store and noticed the cashier was extremely down in the mouth. I asked what was wrong, and he said that TABC agents had just been in and busted him for selling without checking ID (to an agent who was underage, I assume). He had to call his boss at home so boss could come by, take over the store, and fire him in person.

"Boy, that sucks," I said.

"Not as much as the $2000 fine they're hitting me with", he responded.

Another of those little quirks of federalism that makes our country so charming.

Joey P
12-30-2008, 08:58 PM
as for the out of state license thing...

When someone moves in from out of state and they get an in state id, they now have an extra out of state id to give to their younger sibling to use to buy beer. Therefore the law in many places is that the only id accepted is a current, in state issued id card. the cops don't care if the person had a fake id, if the clerk sells to them, the clerk goes to jail...therefore many businesses have even stricter rules than the state law.

Not only that but I know what a Wisconsin ID looks like, I've (technically) been trained on how to spot a fake Wisconsin ID. If someone walks in with an ID from Idaho or Montana, and the ID has holograms were it shouldn't or the picture on the left side instead of the right, or whatever, I'm not going to know it's a fake. That's another reason why some people refuse to take out of state IDs.

Joey P
12-30-2008, 09:11 PM
Thanks Joey. That makes more sense than I could come up with.

That kind of logic is drilled into me. We don't have a barcode scanner so I spend my day trying to get the teenage employees to stop ringing up seafood as coffee and beer as wine and etc etc

Another example would be the little liquor filled chocolates. Underager tries to purchase them, they come up as liquor, cashier asks for ID, the patron comments that it's just chocolate and the cashier says "yeah, your right, must be a mistake" and bada bing you have a 15 year old with 12 shots of liquor. That's the type of thing that makes the managers tell the cashiers, no judgement calls*, if it asks for an ID, you must get one, period.

*I like to say "don't think, just do" IOW if I tell you to do something, do it the way I ask, not the way that you think is better, it's usually not.

Reply
12-30-2008, 09:18 PM
I had previously thought that clerks/stores couldn't get in trouble unless they DIRECTLY sold alcohol to a minor, but now there's contrary evidence in the thread. Good to know :)

Now to complicate things a bit: Is this a state law or a federal law? Does this apply to Indian reservations as well? (Yes, I know Indian stores can enforce the same policy at will, but are they required to by federal law / state agreement?)

UltraVires
12-30-2008, 09:53 PM
I know that in West Virginia they had what was called "Responsible Vendor" classes. I don't know if they were sponsored by the state, the police, M.A.D.D., whoever, but if you were a business that sold off-premesis alcohol, you could pay money and send your employees for training.

There they taught you "tips" like have been talked about in this thread. Then your business was on a three month probationary period. If you passed all of the inspections, then they basically called off the dogs and you didn't have to worry about getting "stung" by the state ABC.

My younger sister tells me that the only thing this has done is made the stores which sell to underage kids constantly "roll" from on to another. The "responsible" store gets complacent because the inspectors don't come around, so word gets out that they will sell booze to underage kids, then they get busted on a tip.

Then they go back to "Responsible Vendor" class. Meanwhile another store is in the "underage" process and it rolls through the community.

Hell, when I was her age, simple, old-fashioned cash payments to the authorites kept them off of you. Morgantown, WV was the worst. There would be 100 convenience stores acting like some of the stores in this post, while another store down the road had a freaking LINE out the front door of 18 year olds buying kegs.. Those were the days..

ZenBeam
12-30-2008, 10:03 PM
They're not refusing to sell to minors, they're refusing to sell to people who are of legal age. A man who's with his wife who's also of legal age, but doesn't happen to have her ID. A woman who's with her own daughter.Please tell us how the clerk's supposed to know if someone is of legal age without carding them. :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: to you too. Did you read the thread? The clerk knows because the person buying the alcohol shows him their ID. The husband had ID showing he was of legal age. The mother (presumably) had ID showing she was of legal age.

alphaboi867
12-30-2008, 10:09 PM
:rolleyes: to you too. Did you read the thread? The clerk knows because the person buying the alcohol shows him their ID. The husband had ID showing he was of legal age. The mother (presumably) had ID showing she was of legal age.

You still haven't explained how the clerk was supposed to know the wife and daughter were of legal age.

ZenBeam
12-30-2008, 11:12 PM
You still haven't explained how the clerk was supposed to know the wife and daughter were of legal age.The wife and the daughter weren't buying alcohol. The daughter, in fact, wasn't of legal age (see post 4), but she wasn't the one buying the alcohol.

The whole point of this thread is not about clerks who are refusing to sell alcohol to people who aren't old enough, or who don't have ID. It's about clerks refusing to sell to people who are old enough, and who do have valid ID.

bdgr
12-30-2008, 11:19 PM
The wife and the daughter weren't buying alcohol. The daughter, in fact, wasn't of legal age (see post 4), but she wasn't the one buying the alcohol.

The whole point of this thread is not about clerks who are refusing to sell alcohol to people who aren't old enough, or who don't have ID. It's about clerks refusing to sell to people who are old enough, and who do have valid ID.


again, they are doing so because they can go to jail if they sell to someone who does have a valid ID and has minors with them.

Koxinga
12-30-2008, 11:20 PM
The wife and the daughter weren't buying alcohol. The daughter, in fact, wasn't of legal age (see post 4), but she wasn't the one buying the alcohol.

The whole point of this thread is not about clerks who are refusing to sell alcohol to people who aren't old enough, or who don't have ID. It's about clerks refusing to sell to people who are old enough, and who do have valid ID.

I think it's been established in this thread that clerks have excellent reasons to do just that in the circumstances described.

You've made it clear that you don't like this state of affairs.

So what? Is there anything further to discuss?

bdgr
12-30-2008, 11:36 PM
I think it's been established in this thread that clerks have excellent reasons to do just that in the circumstances described.

You've made it clear that you don't like this state of affairs.

So what? Is there anything further to discuss?

Yeah..a believe me the clerks don't like it either.

Joey P
12-31-2008, 12:15 AM
The wife and the daughter weren't buying alcohol. The daughter, in fact, wasn't of legal age (see post 4), but she wasn't the one buying the alcohol.

The whole point of this thread is not about clerks who are refusing to sell alcohol to people who aren't old enough, or who don't have ID. It's about clerks refusing to sell to people who are old enough, and who do have valid ID.

No, the whole point of this thread (see the title at the top of your browser) is clerks refusing to sell alcohol to people of age, with a valid ID, but WITH other people who are either minors or don't have proof that they are of the legal age.

Reply
12-31-2008, 12:18 AM
No, the whole point of this thread (see the title at the top of your browser) is clerks refusing to sell alcohol to people of age, with a valid ID, but WITH other people who are either minors or don't have proof that they are of the legal age.
No, the whole point of this thread is to provide me with some entertainment on a lazy, lonely Tuesday. But that was a good guess!

Lo-Slung Denim
12-31-2008, 06:47 AM
In the United States, the same agencies that issue driver's licenses also issue "state identification cards" ("non-driver" licenses). Every adult I know who isn't licensed to drive has one of these I.D. cards.

This is far too sensible an idea for the UK to adopt. :D

muldoonthief
12-31-2008, 08:34 AM
So If I, a 15 year old kid, get $100 worth of odds and ends and the supermarket and then go to check out, I should just walk away and abandon my cart when the cashier refuses to sell me cigarettes?

PS I'm not 15.

PPS, I'm not agreeing OR disagreeing with your statement, just asking a question.

I thought about this, and I'd like to amend my statement:

If a store refuses to sell ANY merchandise to a customer, for WHATEVER reason OTHER than following federal, state, or local law, I in no way see where the customer has to restock it.

Notice that I'm not making that statement for store policy, which may be (and apparently from this thread usually is) stricter than law. I know, when I go into a liquor store, that I'm not buying booze to give to my kids for a party. If store policy is not to sell to me because I went in with my kids because the liquor store is next to the supermarket and I happened to have the kids with me while I was food shopping, that's the store's problem, not mine.

As a practical matter, in your hypothetical, would you really want the 15 year old to walk back through the store and put all his stuff back on the shelves? Considering the quality of the job he'd probably do?

pseudotriton ruber ruber
12-31-2008, 08:58 AM
The practical effect of this law seems to me to be to prevent the purchase of alcohol by an adult with ID accompanied by underaged or ID-less companions on the first occasion said persons encounter such a situation.

Would any group of semi-intelligent 15-18 year olds simply decide "Hey, let's remember to hang out in the video store this time, while 18 year old Fred goes in to purchase a shitload of booze for everyone"? Don't parents of teenagers learn to park around the corner with the 16-year old sitting in the car when they go in to pick a bottle of wine?

It would make more sense to me to require the clerk to summon a policeman to follow a suspicious-looking adult buying teen-friendly booze, from a legal perspective, rather than empowering the clerk to make judgments about the motives of an adult bearing proper ID. I don't get the legal principle involved that allows him to make that sort of judgment. Certainly if someone objected to being refused service, he should be allowed to have that judgment tested on the spot, and to file suit if that judgment is upheld.

I should be able to buy booze if I'm not categorically impaired (ID-less, drunk, passing fake-ID) regardless of who I choose to associate with. It's not the clerk's opinion that should deprive me of my legal right to buy a bottle of wine, and I should be able to challenge that judgment if it's being abused, but I don't see much legal recourse here.

Martini Enfield
12-31-2008, 09:18 AM
The practical effect of this law seems to me to be to prevent the purchase of alcohol by an adult with ID accompanied by underaged or ID-less companions on the first occasion said persons encounter such a situation.

Would any group of semi-intelligent 15-18 year olds simply decide "Hey, let's remember to hang out in the video store this time, while 18 year old Fred goes in to purchase a shitload of booze for everyone"? Don't parents of teenagers learn to park around the corner with the 16-year old sitting in the car when they go in to pick a bottle of wine?

Amazingly, no. I'm surprised too, to be honest.

It would make more sense to me to require the clerk to summon a policeman to follow a suspicious-looking adult buying teen-friendly booze, from a legal perspective, rather than empowering the clerk to make judgments about the motives of an adult bearing proper ID. I don't get the legal principle involved that allows him to make that sort of judgment. Certainly if someone objected to being refused service, he should be allowed to have that judgment tested on the spot, and to file suit if that judgment is upheld.

The legal principle involved is that middle aged men with teenage daughters in the store don't generally purchase "teen-friendly" alcohol for their own (adult) use. Therefore, as far as the store is concerned, the alcohol is being purchased via a proxy or second party, and is likely to end up in the wrong hands (ie, a minor).

As liquor staff, we're trained to make those sorts of judgements. We're not always right, but we err on the side of caution and the law basically says "QQ More n00b" if someone has a problem with that.

More importantly, the police have considerably better things to do with their time than follow people around for buying alcohol that might be considered "teen-friendly". Lots of middle-aged or elderly people like RTD drinks and Passion Pop, and as I said before we don't care if one person buys a bunch of "Lolly Water". It's when that one person buying a lot of lolly water has a teenage son or daughter with them that the alarm bells go off and we have to assume the grog isn't entirely for them. It's taken on a case by case basis, but in all situations, if we knock the sale back we're backed up both by Liquor Licensing and our own Head Office.

I should be able to buy booze if I'm not categorically impaired (ID-less, drunk, passing fake-ID) regardless of who I choose to associate with.

You should, but you can't (at least here). But that's true of a lot of things in a lot of places.

I think the problem is that the US drinking age is way too high- it's 18 here, and that means that 16 and 17 year olds are the ones who could be inappropriately getting alcohol when they're not ready for it, hence the Liquor Nazi laws to make sure that doesn't happen.

Acsenray
12-31-2008, 10:21 AM
I should be able to buy booze if I'm not categorically impaired (ID-less, drunk, passing fake-ID) regardless of who I choose to associate with. It's not the clerk's opinion that should deprive me of my legal right to buy a bottle of wine, and I should be able to challenge that judgment if it's being abused, but I don't see much legal recourse here.

No, because in the larger scheme of things, the right to buy booze at your own convenience is always going to yield to other societal and legal concerns. In the big picture, your inconvenience in this regard isn't really important enough to everyone else to change things.

ZenBeam
12-31-2008, 12:06 PM
No, the whole point of this thread (see the title at the top of your browser) is clerks refusing to sell alcohol to people of age, with a valid ID, but WITH other people who are either minors or don't have proof that they are of the legal age.Fine, but alphaboi867 was asking how the clerk knew they were of legal age. An irrelevant question, because in the one case, the daughter wasn't.

again, they are doing so because they can go to jail if they sell to someone who does have a valid ID and has minors with them.cite? Because the only actual cite I've seen is Martini Enfield's, and I don't see where it says this. To requote (bolding mine),
(1) A person must not, on premises to which a licence or permit
relates—
a) supply liquor to; or
(b) permit or allow liquor to be supplied to; or
(c) allow liquor to be consumed by;
a person who—
(d) is a minor; or
(e) is unduly intoxicated or disorderly.Subsection (1) applies on or in the premises. That means the clerk would need to intervene if the potential minor attempted to carry (or drink!) the alcohol while on the premises. It doesn't say the store is responsible for actions of the adult off of the store premises.

I looked up the Responsible Service of Alcohol handbook (http://olgc.sa.gov.au/liquor/responsible_liquor/RSA_LLL_Handbook.pdf) that Martini Enfield mentioned (the one I found is for South Australia). The only relevant bit, under SECONDARY PURCHASE, on page 40, says
No offence is committed if the supply of liquor to a minor occurs in a public place,
other than regulated premises, while the minor is in the company of an adult guardian or spouse of the minor.It describes fines the adult furnishing the alcohol to the minor could receive, but says nothing about any penalty for the clerk who sold the adult the alcohol. Frankly, that it doesn't describe any penalty makes me believe there isn't one.

Joey P
12-31-2008, 12:16 PM
It describes fines the adult furnishing the alcohol to the minor could receive, but says nothing about any penalty for the clerk who sold the adult the alcohol. Frankly, that it doesn't describe any penalty makes me believe there isn't one.

Sometimes it's not fines they're worried about. It's a lawsuit. I mentioned one case upthread (I think) where a store sold liquor to someone that was of age. He then supplied it to minor who drank it, got in her car, had an accident and was killed. The family sued the store where the liquor was purchased. I have no idea what the result was, but I'm sure it still cost that store money to defend itself. Because of things like this a lot of store just refuse to sell alcohol if it's bleedingly obvious your going to let minors drink it. For example, when one person in the party is 22 and the other three with him are 20.
Oh, and at the store now, even if you are by yourself and everything is honky dory (no minors hanging out right outside the door, no kids our spouses sans ID with you) if they still have a gut feeling you might give it to someone else, they'll actually make you sign something stating that you won't do it. Yeah, you can be annoyed and walk out (I did the first time) or you can just sign the book and keep your booze.

Martini Enfield
12-31-2008, 08:09 PM
cite? Because the only actual cite I've seen is Martini Enfield's, and I don't see where it says this. To requote (bolding mine),
Subsection (1) applies on or in the premises. That means the clerk would need to intervene if the potential minor attempted to carry (or drink!) the alcohol while on the premises. It doesn't say the store is responsible for actions of the adult off of the store premises.

If you look at the linked .pdf in my post, you'll see that Section 156 (2) clearly states:

(2)
A person must not, on a street or place adjacent to premises to
which a licence or permit relates, or in a public place supply
liquor, or cause or permit liquor to be supplied, to a minor.

So the store is still potentially liable in these circumstances if we reasonably suspect the alcohol is for a minor and don't ask for ID and refuse the sale in the absence of appropriate ID verifying everyone in the group as being over 18.

And more importantly, hands up everyone in this thread who works in the Liquor Industry in the State of Queensland, Australia. Oh look, it's me! And I had to undergo a day-long course in the Responsible Service of Alcohol, approved by the Queensland Government (along with periodic "refresher" coures), and I deal with this stuff every single day. I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ass for the sheer hell of it, you know.

There are signs out of the front of every bottle shop in the company I work for that say "Don't Buy It For Them!" listing some of the fines that apply to the store, to parents, and to minors. I've had Liquor Licencing officers tell me that's the law as well. I really don't know what else would satisfy some of you people, to be honest.

I looked up the Responsible Service of Alcohol handbook (http://olgc.sa.gov.au/liquor/responsible_liquor/RSA_LLL_Handbook.pdf) that Martini Enfield mentioned (the one I found is for South Australia). The only relevant bit, under SECONDARY PURCHASE, [...] describes fines the adult furnishing the alcohol to the minor could receive, but says nothing about any penalty for the clerk who sold the adult the alcohol. Frankly, that it doesn't describe any penalty makes me believe there isn't one.

Each State has different laws in regards to this sort of thing. You should know that, living in the US.

South Australia's liquor laws are slightly different to Queenslands, and in Queensland "Secondary Supply" carries a fine of up to $6,000 for the person so supplying the minor, not to mention the fines for the liquor store and the licence nominee. The handbook you've linked to is a pretty good General Guide to the Liquor Laws in Australia (Anyone want to make a "It's the Vibe" joke? Anyone? :)), but the Devil is in the details- in this case, the "Cause or Permit" clause of s156(2) of the Liquor Act 1992 (QLD).

Trying to say "But in SA it's not an offence so therefore your information about Queensland is wrong too!" is a bit like someone asking a question about traffic law in California and someone else comes in with a Traffic Law Guide from Montana and tries to compare the two. That's great, but it's a different state and the laws aren't the same.

Guinastasia
12-31-2008, 09:04 PM
I've had to do this, as a clerk. I assure you, unless we're in a terrible mood, we hate it as much as you do. We don't generally want confrontation. And if you don't make it obvious, I'll let you go. But don't take a group of 16-year-olds back to the beer, have a fricking pow-wow, and send the 21-year-old up to the counter...

Joe

I was in one store here in PA that wouldn't even let you INSIDE if you were under 21. I don't know if that's the case in all, but I had to provide my idea before I was allowed to go back to the shelves.


(On the other hand, I remember at the local beer distributor, how they would have lollipops behind the counters to give to little kids who came in with their parents. I don't know if they still do that nowadays, though)

Fear Itself
12-31-2008, 09:16 PM
Why would you even think of making some poor clerk's life more difficult because he wants to do what it takes to keep his job and not get in trouble with the law?Because the clerk is making some poor customer's life more difficult when all he is doing is complying with the law.

bdgr
12-31-2008, 10:18 PM
cite? Because the only actual cite I've seen is Martini Enfield's, and I don't see where it says this. To requote (bolding mine),
Subsection (1) applies on or in the premises. That means the clerk would need to intervene if the potential minor attempted to carry (or drink!) the alcohol while on the premises. It doesn't say the store is responsible for actions of the adult off of the store premises.

It varys a great deal state by state...
IIRC In Texas, it's covered under the Alcoholic Beverage code under negligence:
Sec. 106.06. PURCHASE OF ALCOHOL FOR A MINOR; FURNISH¬ING ALCOHOL TO A MINOR. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b) of this section, a person commits an offense if he purchases an alcoholic beverage for or gives or with criminal negligence makes available an alcoholic beverage to a minor.

Basically, the TABC will claim that you are being negligent by selling to an adult who you could reasonably know will give it to the minors in question. This also includes minors stealing beer and running out the door with it...it's considered negligent to put it where they could steal it. The courts in Texas have consistently backed the TABC on this. It give them a lot of leeway to jack with clerks.

I know you want to think the evil clerk is just making this all up to make your life miserable but they aren't. I personally know people who have lost their jobs and recieved fines for having been stolen from them, or selling to an adult with minors present. I have PERSONALLY been told this by the TABC in their alcohol servers class so I know the people who have had it happen to them are not making this up.

CutterJohn
01-01-2009, 01:59 AM
What I don't understand is how the businesses can get in trouble for other people behaving irresponsibly. If a kid gets a fake to work, the cashier and business get a far more severe punishment than the kid does.. They get jail time, and massive fines. The kid will get a minor in possession ticket and laugh about it to his friends.

The fact that they have stings to catch clerks is to me utterly appalling. Imo, they should have to ask for age, nothing more, and if the customer lies, its the *customers* fault, noone elses.

Koxinga
01-01-2009, 02:13 AM
What I don't understand is how the businesses can get in trouble for other people behaving irresponsibly. If a kid gets a fake to work, the cashier and business get a far more severe punishment than the kid does.. They get jail time, and massive fines. The kid will get a minor in possession ticket and laugh about it to his friends.

The fact that they have stings to catch clerks is to me utterly appalling. Imo, they should have to ask for age, nothing more, and if the customer lies, its the *customers* fault, noone elses.

Even if this were the case, you know that business owners (and clerks) would still be facing potential lawsuits from families who claim they should have been more vigilent in not allowing junior to buy or steal liquor before he crashed his car.

Along those lines, I wonder what role insurance companies play in this? Maybe some insurers mandate convenience store chains or liquor stores to follow certain policies in order to reduce liability exposure?

(I have a suspicion that a lot of the rules we follow in our society partly originate from insurers.)

LouisB
01-01-2009, 02:47 AM
Wow. I've never heard of such a thing. Heck, here in Texas, underage people can drink in a bar as long as they're with either a parent or spouse who's over 21. The parent or spouse has to buy the drink and serve it to the minor him- or herself.There were no real bars in Texas when I was a pup; it was illegal to sell any alcohol other than wine or beer in any location other than a liquor store. There were God's plenty of "beer joints" that sold beer only; they even had places where a "car hop" would bring the beer to your car. But an adult couldn't buy beer for a non-adult, even that law was broken more than it was honored. There were also places that sold "set-ups" or "mixers" If you brought your own bottle but minors weren't allowed inside those places and they were pretty strict about it. I was refused service in a liquor store once because I was with my cousin, who was two weeks short of his 21st birthday; IIRC, I was three weeks past mine. But back in those days, the damned Southern Baptists had more clout than the Legislature. I know things have changed there since then, but it was one hell of a restrictive place back in 1961. On the other hand, there seemed to be no objection to selling cigarettes to children; I bought 'em when I was twelve.

medstar
01-01-2009, 08:06 PM
It varys a great deal state by state...
IIRC In Texas, it's covered under the Alcoholic Beverage code under negligence:

Basically, the TABC will claim that you are being negligent by selling to an adult who you could reasonably know will give it to the minors in question. This also includes minors stealing beer and running out the door with it...it's considered negligent to put it where they could steal it. The courts in Texas have consistently backed the TABC on this. It give them a lot of leeway to jack with clerks.

I know you want to think the evil clerk is just making this all up to make your life miserable but they aren't. I personally know people who have lost their jobs and recieved fines for having been stolen from them, or selling to an adult with minors present. I have PERSONALLY been told this by the TABC in their alcohol servers class so I know the people who have had it happen to them are not making this up.

How, pray tell, could a clerk in a liquor store prevent (presumably) husky, muscular teens from grabbing cases of beer and running out the door with them? This boggles my mind. I'd still like to thank the OP and other contributors to this thread for permanently removing this job from any consideration I might have previously had to apply for. These rules and regulations are draconian. I wonder, would it be possible to fine the parents of any teenagers just as heavily as the clerks and owners of said liquor stores?

Uncle Brother Walker
01-02-2009, 04:25 AM
as for the out of state license thing...

When someone moves in from out of state and they get an in state id, they now have an extra out of state id to give to their younger sibling to use to buy beer. Therefore the law in many places is that the only id accepted is a current, in state issued id card. the cops don't care if the person had a fake id, if the clerk sells to them, the clerk goes to jail...therefore many businesses have even stricter rules than the state law.

I was in the military while I moved between many states, and while I kept my military ID, I found it was easier to get a local ID. Just in case. Almost 99% of the time, they asked me to surrender the original ID before they would issue the local one. So you wouldn't have a spare.

What I don't understand is how the businesses can get in trouble for other people behaving irresponsibly. If a kid gets a fake to work, the cashier and business get a far more severe punishment than the kid does.. They get jail time, and massive fines. The kid will get a minor in possession ticket and laugh about it to his friends.


We had a local flea market back in TX, and the fakes we bought were usually pretty good. I used mine for years and only got challenged once. I lost the argument and the ID. The next day I went back to the flea market and the guy said “hey, I’ve got the new stamps* for ID’s. But it’ll cost you an extra $10.”

Best $10 I ever spent.

*=embossing of the state seal in a repeated pattern on the actual laminate. Good work. Gotta love an artist who takes pride in his work, eh?

Acsenray
01-02-2009, 09:18 AM
Because the clerk is making some poor customer's life more difficult when all he is doing is complying with the law.

Can you see how tiny the violins are going to be for this one? No one is being harmed or being denied a basic right or being unfairly discriminated against based on a suspect classification. On the other hand, a clerk and his employer are benefiting from substantial risk avoidance and society is benefiting from at least some minimal degree of reduced improper use of alcohol.

control-z
01-02-2009, 09:27 AM
Can you see how tiny the violins are going to be for this one? No one is being harmed or being denied a basic right or being unfairly discriminated against based on a suspect classification. On the other hand, a clerk and his employer are benefiting from substantial risk avoidance and society is benefiting from at least some minimal degree of reduced improper use of alcohol.

No, it's just another pointless law that's more of an inconvenience than a help.

bordelond
01-02-2009, 09:32 AM
I personally know people who have lost their jobs and recieved fines for having been stolen from them ...
I assume this rule does not go into effect in the event of an armed theft? A clerk shouldn't have to take a bullet to prevent a 17-year-old from drinking a beer.

bdgr
01-02-2009, 10:55 AM
I was in the military while I moved between many states, and while I kept my military ID, I found it was easier to get a local ID. Just in case. Almost 99% of the time, they asked me to surrender the original ID before they would issue the local one. So you wouldn't have a spare.


They do ask, but in most states if you say you left it back in your home state they will issue it anyway.



We had a local flea market back in TX, and the fakes we bought were usually pretty good. I used mine for years and only got challenged once. I lost the argument and the ID. The next day I went back to the flea market and the guy said “hey, I’ve got the new stamps* for ID’s. But it’ll cost you an extra $10.”

Best $10 I ever spent.

*=embossing of the state seal in a repeated pattern on the actual laminate. Good work. Gotta love an artist who takes pride in his work, eh?

No, I really don't love it. When I did security bars it made my life difficult, and when I caught someone with a flea market ID...even a good one...I had them jacked up against the wall in handcuffs till the sherrifs deputy got there. Usually those ids have in fine print that it is a novelty ID somewhere on the card (otherwise they go to jail for making them), and if the poor working stiff who sells you the beer misses it...which as you know they usually do...then the guy behind the counter loses his job and/or goes to jail. Having been one of those poor working stiffs trying to pay the rent and put food on the table and pay the rent while working in a bar and going to college I rather dislike fake ids, and I took it personally.

Trying to buy booze with a fake ID is a misdomeaner, but CARRYING a fake ID in Texas is a felony (at least it was at the time). We would make it clear to the person with the ID that it would be up to the officer which they charged them with. Usually they gave them a ticket, but more than once I saw them haul the guy off to jail (still probably charged them with the misdomener)...especially if he copped an attitude. Usually the snot nosed little punk was wetting himself by the time the deputies got there.

bdgr
01-02-2009, 10:59 AM
How, pray tell, could a clerk in a liquor store prevent (presumably) husky, muscular teens from grabbing cases of beer and running out the door with them? This boggles my mind. I'd still like to thank the OP and other contributors to this thread for permanently removing this job from any consideration I might have previously had to apply for. These rules and regulations are draconian. I wonder, would it be possible to fine the parents of any teenagers just as heavily as the clerks and owners of said liquor stores?
The day they informed me of that at the alchoholic beverage training class I put in my two weeks notice. I had one person steal beer from me during that two week period and I chased him into the parking lot with a 6 cell mag light...I got the beer back and then called the cops who arrested him down the street.

I later worked in a bar as a bouncer, but never again in a retail store that sold alchohol. Two risky.

bdgr
01-02-2009, 11:02 AM
How, pray tell, could a clerk in a liquor store prevent (presumably) husky, muscular teens from grabbing cases of beer and running out the door with them? This boggles my mind. I'd still like to thank the OP and other contributors to this thread for permanently removing this job from any consideration I might have previously had to apply for. These rules and regulations are draconian. I wonder, would it be possible to fine the parents of any teenagers just as heavily as the clerks and owners of said liquor stores?

not easily. What the drone who taught the class said was the beer should be somewhere where minors cant just grab it and run. I was working in a convienience store at the time, where they had big displays of the stuff.

Liquor stores have the advantage of usually not allowing teens in the place to start with, but we didn't. I hated that job.

Acsenray
01-02-2009, 11:03 AM
No, it's just another pointless law that's more of an inconvenience than a help.

[Graham Chapman]That's not an argument. That's just contradiction.[/Graham Chapman]

bordelond
01-02-2009, 01:47 PM
The day they informed me of that at the alchoholic beverage training class I put in my two weeks notice. I had one person steal beer from me during that two week period and I chased him into the parking lot with a 6 cell mag light...I got the beer back and then called the cops who arrested him down the street.

I later worked in a bar as a bouncer, but never again in a retail store that sold alchohol. Two risky.
Good call on your part. Apparently, in Texas, retail clerks are expected to do 90% of the TABC's legwork.

control-z
01-02-2009, 02:02 PM
[Graham Chapman]That's not an argument. That's just contradiction.[/Graham Chapman]

I think that was Michael Palin. ;)

Acsenray
01-02-2009, 03:52 PM
No, it isn't.










:D

Joey P
01-02-2009, 03:57 PM
No, it isn't.


Yes it is.

tumbleddown
01-02-2009, 04:47 PM
When I did security bars it made my life difficult, and when I caught someone with a flea market ID...even a good one...I had them jacked up against the wall in handcuffs till the sherrifs deputy got there.
You, as a private individual not affiliated with a law enforcement agency were handcuffing people for what you've just described as a misdemeanor act?:eek:

Freudian Slit
01-02-2009, 05:01 PM
You, as a private individual not affiliated with a law enforcement agency were handcuffing people for what you've just described as a misdemeanor act?:eek:

Yeah, that's a little scary. Almost everyone I knew in college had a fake ID...but I never heard of anyone getting cuffed over it!

DPRK
05-19-2017, 01:39 PM
she never let me go into the liquor store with her. I didn't understand why she didn't at the time(heck, I didn't even like alcohol at all when I was at that age) but now, that I'm older, I fully understand why. If I had a liquor store, I would not ever want the idea that I consciously let an adult buy alcohol for a minor to be even brought into question. If you are an adult and have anyone with you who is underage, the best thing to do is just simply not have them accompany you at all when making the purchase. On top of that, if you are of age but are under 40, be prepared to show id if you are at a place that sells alcohol. If you follow those 2 tips, there shouldn't be any problems whatsoever.

Colibri
05-19-2017, 02:25 PM
We prefer that old threads in General Questions be bumped only to add new factual information. Since this is largely anecdotal, I'm going to close it.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

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