PDA

View Full Version : Is the US pronunciation of "solder" unique to the US ?


Bones Daley
09-09-2014, 03:12 PM
I occasionally watch DIY/ home workshop videos on Youtube, and have always been intrigued by the way American artisans pronounce "solder" as "sodder".

In the UK, anyone who said "I am going to sodder these terminals together" would be looked at askance (or worse). Over here we pronounce the "l", so it sounds like "sold-her".

I am sure that the multi-national membership of TSD will be able to elucidate one way or another whether the US pronunciation is accepted world-wide, or whether the Brit pronunciation is more common.

Maybe some countries follow the US example and others follow the UK ... I will be interested to find out.

If anybody could explain WHY Americans don't pronounce the "l" in solder, well, that would be a bonus ...

silenus
09-09-2014, 03:25 PM
Could, would, should, salmon...lots of words we don't pronounce the "l" in.

Bones Daley
09-09-2014, 03:31 PM
Could, would, should, salmon...lots of words we don't pronounce the "l" in.

Same in the UK, and same worldwide.

But "solder" is pronounced two different ways.

Mangetout
09-09-2014, 03:32 PM
Could, would, should, salmon...lots of words we don't pronounce the "l" in.

Sure, and lots where we do; older, bolder, shoulder, folder...

I guess the answer is the usual: language doesn't always do what we expect.

SmartAlecCat
09-09-2014, 03:34 PM
It's like aluminum. We say it/slur it quick and easy.

Bones Daley
09-09-2014, 03:36 PM
It's like aluminum. We say it/slur it quick and easy.

Yes, but you wouldn't say "I've hurt my shodder", would you ???

Gary T
09-09-2014, 03:42 PM
Yes, but you wouldn't say "I've hurt my shodder", would you ???No.

ETA: Methinks you're trying too hard to make sense of our American pronunciation. Do you enunciate every letter in Featherstonehaugh?

cochrane
09-09-2014, 03:43 PM
It's like aluminum. We say it/slur it quick and easy.

Because it's not as funny when you call it the "Aluminium Falcon." :)

Really Not All That Bright
09-09-2014, 03:44 PM
It's like aluminum. We say it/slur it quick and easy.
Well, not really. The pronunciation I usually hear in the US is more like "sauder", which isn't really any easier to say than "soul-dur".

SpoilerVirgin
09-09-2014, 03:45 PM
Things I learned from the SDMB today:

There is no such word as sauter (pronounced sotter), meaning to melt metal parts together.

OTOH, my Webster's lists the pronounciation of solder with no "l": (sädǝr).

Bones Daley
09-09-2014, 03:46 PM
I am hoping that some Canadian, Oz, African etc members will chip in and reveal what their preferred pronunciation is, as well as anyone for whom English is a second language.

Inner Stickler
09-09-2014, 03:46 PM
Yes, but you wouldn't say "I've hurt my shodder", would you ???No but the etymological history of shoulder vis-a-vis modern english has always retained an -l- sound there. Solder, on the other hand, was soudur in middle english for a long time and the -l- returned in a period of latinate fanaticism (latinaticism) during the 15th century.

edit: I say sawder or sodder as I have that particular vowel merger. I said solder with the L once as a sophomore in college and was promptly laughed out of the scene shop.

araminty
09-09-2014, 03:47 PM
Australian here (living in California) - we say "solder."

Really Not All That Bright
09-09-2014, 03:50 PM
No but the etymological history of shoulder vis-a-vis modern english has always retained an -l- sound there. Solder, on the other hand, was soudur in middle english for a long time and the -l- returned in a period of latinate fanaticism (latinaticism) during the 15th century.

edit: I say sawder or sodder as I have that particular vowel merger. I said solder with the L once as a sophomore in college and was promptly laughed out of the scene shop.
How did you solder things in the 14th century (http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=solder)? :confused:

pulykamell
09-09-2014, 03:53 PM
How did you solder things in the 14th century (http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=solder)? :confused:

Don't know exactly, but soldering apparently goes back 5000 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldering). (I mean, all you need is fire and a soldering metal and something to solder, right?)

Smapti
09-09-2014, 03:54 PM
Yes, but you wouldn't say "I've hurt my shodder", would you ???

No more than you would mention using Wor-ces-tir-shire sauce on your sal-is-bury steak while dining in Lei-ces-ter before boarding a train to Glou-ces-tir via Lan-cas-ter-shire.

Inner Stickler
09-09-2014, 03:57 PM
How did you solder things in the 14th century (http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=solder)? :confused:I haven't the foggiest. My interest in the subject is almost purely linguistic. Is there such a thing as a metallurgic historian? They might know.

RickJay
09-09-2014, 04:00 PM
I am hoping that some Canadian, Oz, African etc members will chip in and reveal what their preferred pronunciation is, as well as anyone for whom English is a second language.
At least in southern Ontario, it is "sodder," as per the American pronounciation.

Anyone who speaks English really should not express surprise that English pronunciation and spelling are not consistent.

People in the UK pronounce garage as "garridge," which I find funny and strange, but it's not wrong, it's just a regionalism.

Bones Daley
09-09-2014, 04:02 PM
No more than you would mention using Wor-ces-tir-shire sauce on your sal-is-bury steak while dining in Lei-ces-ter before boarding a train to Glou-ces-tir via Lan-cas-ter-shire.

Ah, THAT goes a long way to explaining the missing "l" . Thank you.

btw whereabouts is Lancastershire???

Bones Daley
09-09-2014, 04:06 PM
Anyone who speaks English really should not express surprise that English pronunciation and spelling are not consistent.

.

I said I was "intrigued", I didn't say I was surprised. And I am certainly not criticising (or "criticizing", even) ...

Inner Stickler
09-09-2014, 04:09 PM
How did you solder things in the 14th century (http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=solder)? :confused:A friend suggested melting the metal in a separate container and then pouring it over the second piece of metal. Which would be a great way to cover a hunk of something cheap with a fancier more expensive metal but I'm not sure how effective it would be at, say, joining two ends of a pipe.

Amateur Barbarian
09-09-2014, 04:15 PM
I worked closely with a bunch of Aussies in the later '80s, doing electronics development, and don't recall a one of them using anything but the "sodder" pronunciation.

Bones Daley
09-09-2014, 04:21 PM
I worked closely with a bunch of Aussies in the later '80s, doing electronics development, and don't recall a one of them using anything but the "sodder" pronunciation.

Now the question that springs to mind is ..were you working in the US or in OZ ?

Cuz if you were in the US it is quite conceivable that they were "doing as the Romans do" ... eg when I worked in the States I would never have said "AL-OO- MIN- EE-UM" ... back over here I sometimes say "aluminum" and get funny looks.

Dr. Strangelove
09-09-2014, 04:25 PM
I worked closely with a bunch of Aussies in the later '80s, doing electronics development, and don't recall a one of them using anything but the "sodder" pronunciation.

Here's an Australian guy (https://youtube.com/watch?v=J5Sb21qbpEQ) that says it a lot. I think there's an "l" sound in there, but it's very weak and to my ears pretty much sounds like "sodder", or maybe "sauder". It certainly doesn't sound like "sold-er".

CalMeacham
09-09-2014, 04:28 PM
How did you solder things in the 14th century (http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=solder)? :confused:

Probably the same way they soldered things in the 18th and 19th centuries -- you use a soldering iron made with a large bulk of iron to retain the heat near the tip, and use a eutectic mixture of metals (lead and tin, for instance) that melts at a low temperature, and use a flux to clean off the dross that keeps the solder from sticking. Soldering was the standard method used by tinsmiths and silversmiths for joining the parts of their metalwork together for quite a long time.

Bozuit
09-09-2014, 04:38 PM
Things I learned from the SDMB today:

There is no such word as sauter (pronounced sotter), meaning to melt metal parts together.

Of course not. One sautés them.


No more than you would mention using Wor-ces-tir-shire sauce on your sal-is-bury steak while dining in Lei-ces-ter before boarding a train to Glou-ces-tir via Lan-cas-ter-shire.

Nice try, but it's "Lancashire". :cool:

Bones Daley
09-09-2014, 04:49 PM
Here's an Australian guy (https://youtube.com/watch?v=J5Sb21qbpEQ) that says it a lot. I think there's an "l" sound in there, but it's very weak and to my ears pretty much sounds like "sodder", or maybe "sauder". It certainly doesn't sound like "sold-er".

I beg to differ ... it sounds exactly like "sold-er " to my ears ... just with an Aussie accent

hibernicus
09-09-2014, 04:51 PM
I am hoping that some Canadian, Oz, African etc members will chip in and reveal what their preferred pronunciation is, as well as anyone for whom English is a second language.

Ireland: /soʊldər/ SOAL-der

74westy
09-09-2014, 05:13 PM
Western Canada. Never heard the l pronounced in my life.

KarlGauss
09-09-2014, 05:18 PM
Another Canadian here.

In my first metal shop class ("Industrial Arts") when I was 11 yo, I made the mistake of saying solder with the 'l'-sound. Was I laughed at!

(these traumas stay with me)

swampspruce
09-09-2014, 05:51 PM
Canadian Electronics Tech, and we have always said "sodder". No L.

Yllaria
09-09-2014, 05:52 PM
How did you solder things in the 14th century (http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=solder)? :confused:

The same way you'd iron clothes in the 14th century. Only the iron would be pointier (http://josephjenkins.com/store/hand-irons-and-solder-pots/).

Bones Daley
09-09-2014, 06:01 PM
OK, we've established that the US and Canada both say "sodder", and the evidence is strong that Aussies say "sold-er".

How about South Africa, or indeed any of the English speaking African countries ?

aldiboronti
09-09-2014, 06:12 PM
At least in southern Ontario, it is "sodder," as per the American pronounciation.

Anyone who speaks English really should not express surprise that English pronunciation and spelling are not consistent.

People in the UK pronounce garage as "garridge," which I find funny and strange, but it's not wrong, it's just a regionalism.

It's also a class shibboleth in England. Middle and upper classes tend to say gar-ahge, as the Yanks, while working class oiks pronounce it garridge. There's also something of a Norh-South split. As you say, there's no consistency in these things, nor should there be. That's half the fun of language.

wolfpup
09-09-2014, 06:31 PM
OK, we've established that the US and Canada both say "sodder", and the evidence is strong that Aussies say "sold-er".
Concur with the other Canucks -- I have never heard the "l" pronounced -- it is always "sodder" (or "sauder"), as in the US.

Canadian spelling tends to follow the British orthography, but pronunciation is more closely aligned with the US. Though there are notable differences in words like "about" and "sorry".

california jobcase
09-09-2014, 06:47 PM
Some here in South Georgia pronounce the L in solder, but also in salmon, walk, and talk. They are to be ignored.

Isilder
09-09-2014, 06:49 PM
I occasionally watch DIY/ home workshop videos on Youtube, and have always been intrigued by the way American artisans pronounce "solder" as "sodder".


Which part of Amercia pronounces it that way ?

New England ? New Amsterdam ? New Spain ? New France ?
New Mexico ?

Or some other area dominated by deutch or dutch or Poles ?

Oh my point was that USA is not some sort of extension of UK - Is it a holiday resort populated by England ?

See
http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=solder

The only interesting thing about the the etemology of the word solder is the lost and found "l". It had the l in latin, the l goes missing, but comes back in MODERN ENGLISH.


solder (n.)
early 14c., soudur, from Old French soldure, soudeure, from souder

Suburban Plankton
09-09-2014, 06:50 PM
It's like aluminum. We say it/slur it quick and easy.

How is it like aluminum? We pronounce all of the letters in 'aluminum' just as they are written. At least, I do...how do you pronounce it?

gnoitall
09-09-2014, 06:54 PM
It's also a class shibboleth in England. Middle and upper classes tend to say gar-ahge, as the Yanks, while working class oiks pronounce it garridge. There's also something of a Norh-South split. As you say, there's no consistency in these things, nor should there be. That's half the fun of language.
Seems another Englishman made a similar observations some time ago...
It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him.

Morgenstern
09-09-2014, 07:01 PM
Same with Beta

US: Baa'ta testing
UK Bee'ta testing.

Broomstick
09-09-2014, 07:10 PM
Yes, but you wouldn't say "I've hurt my shodder", would you ???
No, but I've heard fellow Americans state they have "hurt my show-der".

GreedySmurf
09-09-2014, 07:28 PM
Here's an Australian guy (https://youtube.com/watch?v=J5Sb21qbpEQ) that says it a lot. I think there's an "l" sound in there, but it's very weak and to my ears pretty much sounds like "sodder", or maybe "sauder". It certainly doesn't sound like "sold-er".

I think it must be the Aussie accent to your ear, because there is most definitely an 'l' in his pronunciation. This is the first time I've ever heard of it being pronounced differently. It is definitely soul-dering in Australia. If someone talked to me about 'soddering' something I would have no idea what they were talking about.

Dr. Strangelove
09-09-2014, 07:50 PM
I think it must be the Aussie accent to your ear, because there is most definitely an 'l' in his pronunciation. This is the first time I've ever heard of it being pronounced differently. It is definitely soul-dering in Australia. If someone talked to me about 'soddering' something I would have no idea what they were talking about.

Yeah; I suppose I should say that it sounds nothing like if an American were to say "sold-er". The word "sold" has a strong "l" sound in most accents here and doesn't get slurred away the way it seems to with an Aussie accent (to my ears).

At any rate, it's very difficult to get this stuff right since it's so context dependent. Two identical sounds, spoken by people with different accents, can sound like totally different words because of different expectations.

I suspect that you would actually have zero problem understanding an American talking about "soddering"; first, because an American wouldn't pronounce "soddering" the way an Australian would; and second, because it would be spoken in a context where the meaning would be obvious. I also suspect that if you took an Aussie's pronunciation and dubbed on top of an American talking about electronics stuff, hardly anyone would be the wiser.

usedtobe
09-09-2014, 07:53 PM
Of on the tangent - has no one seen a pre-electric (or gas) soldering iron? They were massive hunks of metal on a skinny (and long) rod with a thick wooden handle - you put the iron in or near the small fire in the shop - maybe have multiple irons, so one is always at working temperature.
Not hard to imagine the Romans having similar tools - they knew enough to blend lead and tin and make the standard solder used - the 'mercans got scared of lead in their drinking water, so copper pipes for potable water now specify lead-free solder (which is crap).
I suspect the 50/50 tin/lead solder remains the standard for everything else.

For the linguists:
Raised until 12 (which pretty much locks in language, I'm guessing) in Dayton. Moved to S. IN at 12 and heard the hicks butcher the language for the next 6 years.

"Sodder" comes close than "Sauder", though both are interchangeable to my ear.

One parent from SW OH, other from Central OH - both raised on postage-stamp farms in the middle of nowhere. Mother's closest girlfriend had "P.O. Box 2" in the nearest town.

Cannot imaging living in such a place.

TriPolar
09-09-2014, 08:03 PM
A friend suggested melting the metal in a separate container and then pouring it over the second piece of metal. Which would be a great way to cover a hunk of something cheap with a fancier more expensive metal but I'm not sure how effective it would be at, say, joining two ends of a pipe.

I've seen descriptions of that technique, but then as now it can lead to cold joints. Pouring hot lead is still used to close iron drain pipes, but it's poured over packed oakum or other sealing materials. I don't know when blow torches were invented but I imagine you'd have to heat the ends of water supply pipes in a fire before applying molten lead to get a good seal before then.

UDS
09-09-2014, 09:15 PM
Ireland: /soʊldər/ SOAL-der

Ireland: SOLL-der

For what it's worth, the OED ("the pronunciations given are those in use among educated urban speakers of standard English in Britain and the United States") gives two pronunciations, one with 'l' and one without, but they also have different vowel sounds: SOLL-der and SOAD-er.

Seems another Englishman made a similar observations some time ago... [followed by quote from George Bernard Shaw]
Nitpick: GBS was not an Englishman. He made rather a point of not being English.

Cugel
09-09-2014, 11:25 PM
I think it must be the Aussie accent to your ear, because there is most definitely an 'l' in his pronunciation. This is the first time I've ever heard of it being pronounced differently. It is definitely soul-dering in Australia. If someone talked to me about 'soddering' something I would have no idea what they were talking about.

Yep, no wiggle room, we say soul-da. I only knew about the l dropping when hearing Joe Garrelli say on NewsRadio.

bldysabba
09-10-2014, 12:46 AM
India. Solder.

johnpost
09-10-2014, 01:03 AM
because they want people to think you're doing landscaping.

MrDibble
09-10-2014, 01:22 AM
How did you solder things in the 14th century (http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=solder)? :confused:

They either used the large metal soldering irons (https://img1.etsystatic.com/000/0/6018874/il_570xN.200025777.jpg) already mentioned, or else they used blowpipes (http://youtube.com/watch?v=MYvixboVvYk) or furnaces.

guizot
09-10-2014, 01:36 AM
Anyone who speaks English really should not express surprise that English pronunciation and spelling are not consistent.By the same token, it really behooves us to avoid saying, "I don't pronounce the L," because that implies that spelling drives pronunciation. It's not like people learn how to speak a word entirely from print, but then for some perverse reason decide "not to pronounce" one of the letters.

Mijin
09-10-2014, 01:38 AM
Of course no pronunciation is better than any other (and in terms of superfluous letters, we probably have more in Brit english thanks to colour and the like)

But a "soddering iron" still sounds painful

MrDibble
09-10-2014, 02:05 AM
I forgot to say - South African, solder

CairoCarol
09-10-2014, 03:17 AM
Apropos of nothing in particular, I bet you can't say "The soldier's shoulder surgeon" ten times in a row really fast.

njtt
09-10-2014, 03:47 AM
It may be relevant that the syllable "sod" really does not carry the same connotations in the USA as it does in the UK, where it (and the derived "sodding") is a commonly used obscenity, with the literal meaning of one who indulges in sodomy. Most British people would probably find the name of this US company (http://usaturf.com/sportingvalleysod/), for instance, hilarious, and they are probably going to think of anal sex long before they think of grass (let alone molten metal), when they hear the syllable. A soddering iron, sounds like it could be a particularly nasty sort of sex toy.

MrDibble
09-10-2014, 04:37 AM
Used as a swear, I'll bet, for your average Brit, "sod" doesn't carry any mental associations with anal sex, any more than "bloody" does with Catholicism or "what the fuck" does with actual sex. "Soddering" just sounds rude because sod's a swearword, not the origin.

Tabby_Cat
09-10-2014, 04:37 AM
Singapore, solder with the L.

njtt
09-10-2014, 04:41 AM
Used as a swear, I'll bet, for your average Brit, "sod" doesn't carry any mental associations with anal sex, any more than "bloody" does with Catholicism or "what the fuck" does with actual sex. "Soddering" just sounds rude because sod's a swearword, not the origin.

I think most of us know, and, as I said, would probably associate it with anal sex before grass. But, whatever, it is still a swear word in Britain, but not (or certainly not commonly) in America, which is the point.

Shakester
09-10-2014, 06:49 AM
I'm still amused by Americans pronouncing "puma" as "poomer" - once I got over my bewilderment over what the heck a "poomer" is.

hibernicus
09-10-2014, 06:55 AM
Ireland: SOLL-der

For what it's worth, the OED ("the pronunciations given are those in use among educated urban speakers of standard English in Britain and the United States") gives two pronunciations, one with 'l' and one without, but they also have different vowel sounds: SOLL-der and SOAD-er.

In that case, I have been saying it wrong all my life. For me it rhymes with "older" and "bolder". When I get back to Dublin I'll ask some of my colleagues how they pronounce it, just to satisfy my own curiosity.

Incidentally, I own (but have never used) one of the old-style soldering irons described above. It belonged to my grandfather.

njtt
09-10-2014, 10:11 AM
In that case, I have been saying it wrong all my life. For me it rhymes with "older" and "bolder". When I get back to Dublin I'll ask some of my colleagues how they pronounce it, just to satisfy my own curiosity.

So it does for me, in England.

Telemark
09-10-2014, 10:43 AM
I'm still amused by Americans pronouncing "puma" as "poomer" - once I got over my bewilderment over what the heck a "poomer" is.
Americans in general don't pronounce "puma" like that. There are accents in the US that will put an "r" at the end of a work that ends in a vowel (such as in New England) but it's not common elsewhere.

LawMonkey
09-10-2014, 11:43 AM
I am hoping that some Canadian, Oz, African etc members will chip in and reveal what their preferred pronunciation is, as well as anyone for whom English is a second language.

FWIW (and somewhat tangential to the thread), my understanding is that ESL teaches UK pronunciation (RP, I assume) outside of the US; in the US, we favor US pronunciations. You'll occasionally pick this up from Europeans speaking English if they've mostly or entirely managed to drop their native accent.

Dr. Drake
09-10-2014, 11:53 AM
Could, would, should, salmon...lots of words we don't pronounce the "l" in.Nobody has ever pronounced the L in could. It's unetymological, inserted on analogy with would ( < will) and should ( < shall).

The one I'm never sure about is "almond." Both "al-mund" and "ah-mund" sound right to me.

Lots of spelling pronunciations out there. Many people have re-inserted the T in often out of hypercorrection, while they never do so in soften. And every American I know pronounces the -monger words as "monger" rather than "munger," which is correct in my mind for some reason—probably from my Canadian parent.

Really Not All That Bright
09-10-2014, 12:01 PM
Americans in general don't pronounce "puma" like that. There are accents in the US that will put an "r" at the end of a work that ends in a vowel (such as in New England) but it's not common elsewhere.
It's the "oo" part that is significant, not the "r" (which I agree does not exist.) Britons distinctly pronounce the U ("pyoomah"), rather than saying "poomah". The same thing happens with jaguar. I don't know if it's cat related.

Shakester
09-10-2014, 12:03 PM
Americans in general don't pronounce "puma" like that. There are accents in the US that will put an "r" at the end of a work that ends in a vowel (such as in New England) but it's not common elsewhere.

I'm talking about the poo, not the mer. Poo-muh is a closer to what I heard.

In the rest of the English speaking world, it's pronounced "pew-muh" and the first syllable rhymes with "few" and not "poo". The first time I heard the American pronunciation I had no idea what the heck a "poo-muh" was and it took me several minutes to work out that they were talking about a puma.

Anyway, Australian here, and I've only ever heard "sodder" on US TV shows. I solder things myself occasionally, and my dad was an electrician, so it's not like I was unfamiliar with the word, just the US dialect version. I got that one right away, though, as they were clearly soldering something at the time.

Shakester
09-10-2014, 12:11 PM
Britons distinctly pronounce the U ("pyoomah"), rather than saying "poomah". The same thing happens with jaguar. I don't know if it's cat related.

I'm Australian, not a Briton. It's the whole rest of the English-speaking world, including Commonwealth countries where English is an official language, like India and Pakistan, not just the British Isles and the places like Australia and New Zealand and South Africa where English is the majority language.

Leaffan
09-10-2014, 12:42 PM
How is it like aluminum? We pronounce all of the letters in 'aluminum' just as they are written. At least, I do...how do you pronounce it?
Since this got missed, in the UK the element is called "aluminium." It has five syllables and is pronounced like al-YOO-min-i-um.

Inner Stickler
09-10-2014, 12:45 PM
It's the "oo" part that is significant, not the "r" (which I agree does not exist.) Britons distinctly pronounce the U ("pyoomah"), rather than saying "poomah". The same thing happens with jaguar. I don't know if it's cat related.Yod-dropping can get rather complex but if I may engage in blatant generalities:

[j] is always dropped after tʃ, dʒ, ʃ, r, and j so words like chew, jury, rude and so on.

[j] is always dropped in SAE and sometimes* in SBE after θ, s, and z so words like enthusiasm, suit or Zeus are enthoosiasm, soot and Zoos for me but enthyoosiasm, syoot and Zyoos for a Brit.

[j] is always dropped in SAE but not in SBE after t,d, and n so words like tune, dew and new to me are toone, doo, and noo but tyoone, dyoo and nyoo to that Brit.

This is all predicated on the assumption that the yod and its predecessor are in the same syllable. If there's a syllable break as in words like Matthew, volume or menu, there is no yod-dropping in either British or American english.

*What I gather is that historically, a british person who yod drops in these instances would be perceived as engaging in non-standard speech but that perception has lessened lately.

Really Not All That Bright
09-10-2014, 12:58 PM
I'm Australian, not a Briton.
Nobody's perfect. ;)

Thudlow Boink
09-10-2014, 01:15 PM
In the rest of the English speaking world, it's pronounced "pew-muh" and the first syllable rhymes with "few" and not "poo". The first time I heard the American pronunciation I had no idea what the heck a "poo-muh" was and it took me several minutes to work out that they were talking about a puma. I'm American, and I pronounce it "pyoo-ma," as do many other Americans (including the Smothers Brothers). But the word comes from Spanish, and Americans especially in areas with large Spanish-speaking populations may have been influenced by the Spanish pronunciation to call it a "poo-ma."

Compare this thread (http://boards.academicpursuits.us/sdmb/showthread.php?t=640221) debating the pronunciation of "Cuba" in Cuba Gooding Jr.'s name.

MrDibble
09-10-2014, 02:19 PM
It's naht a Poomuh

Hari Seldon
09-10-2014, 07:19 PM
FWIW the French is soudure. You know it is a lot like asking why we don't say the b in debt (French dette). Some asshole added those letters late in the game and a few people take it seriously.

A more interesting one is often. While some Americans pronounce the t, I don't and my dictionary doesn't even list it as a second pronunciation. But as far as I know, all Canadians pronounce the t. There is no accounting for dialects, they just are.

A colleague who was interest in linguistics once claimed that he had examples of every letter in English being silent, with the exception of v. Of course there are words where a v disappeared but we drop the v is spelling (Halloween, e'er for ever, etc.)

pulykamell
09-10-2014, 07:37 PM
But as far as I know, all Canadians pronounce the t. There is no accounting for dialects, they just are.

That explains a lot. For some reason, I particularly pick up on whether people pronounce the "t" or not in "often." I keep hearing it over and over on NPR, but now that you mention the Canadian connection, I think a lot of my "hits" are with CBC radio broadcasts or Canadian commentators on NPR.

Leaffan
09-10-2014, 07:42 PM
...But as far as I know, all Canadians pronounce the t. ...)
No we don't. It might be a regional thing, but I don't pronounce the t. I've heard both pronunciations.

UDS
09-10-2014, 09:24 PM
In that case, I have been saying it wrong all my life. For me it rhymes with "older" and "bolder". When I get back to Dublin I'll ask some of my colleagues how they pronounce it, just to satisfy my own curiosity.
You haven't been saying it wrong. You've just been saying it differnently from how I, and the people in my circle, have been saying it.

There are at least four pronunciations possible - with or without the 'l', with a long 'o' or a short 'o'. And that's before we get into whether the terminal 'r' is voiced. The OED recognised two pronunciations in RP. There could well be two (or more) pronunciations current in Hiberno-English.

UDS
09-10-2014, 09:28 PM
Since this got missed, in the UK the element is called "aluminium." It has five syllables and is pronounced like al-YOO-min-i-um.
Nitpick: It's al-you-MIN-ee-um. Stress on the antepenultimate syllable.

Dr. Strangelove
09-10-2014, 09:35 PM
Americans in general don't pronounce "puma" like that. There are accents in the US that will put an "r" at the end of a work that ends in a vowel (such as in New England) but it's not common elsewhere.

Lots of non-rhotic dialects (mostly non-US, of course) will insert intrusive Rs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R) between words that end and start with vowel sounds. "India and Pakistan" may come out as "Indier and Pakistan" (the R being rhotic), for instance. It's widespread enough that I've heard presenters on the BBC do it.

Melbourne
09-10-2014, 10:13 PM
A friend suggested melting the metal in a separate container and then pouring it over the second piece of metal. Which would be a great way to cover a hunk of something cheap with a fancier more expensive metal but I'm not sure how effective it would be at, say, joining two ends of a pipe.

Plumbers used to make 'wiped' joints, use a non-eutectic solder, (which means it warms to a slurry). wiped joint (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=wkOl953ZG-UC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37). I've only ever actually seen one such joint, and it was not as beautiful as that picture: thay stopped doing that a long time ago.


The students (electronics) in Melbourne laughed at my dad for using the American pronunciation, but he was a larger-than-life character, and it was good natured.

gnoitall
09-11-2014, 01:18 PM
Ireland: SOLL-der

For what it's worth, the OED ("the pronunciations given are those in use among educated urban speakers of standard English in Britain and the United States") gives two pronunciations, one with 'l' and one without, but they also have different vowel sounds: SOLL-der and SOAD-er.


Nitpick: GBS was not an Englishman. He made rather a point of not being English.
Fair cop. It makes sense that an Irishman would notice and articulate most clearly that interesting aspect of English society. It's kind of an "outsider" observation.

I've never heard of dialect differences across Ireland underpinning class- or geography-based hatred, other than those attributable to conflicts associated with The Troubles.

gnoitall
09-11-2014, 01:21 PM
But a "soddering iron" still sounds painfulIf you grab it by the hot end, it most certainly is, no matter how you pronounce it. Or the torrents of swearing that inevitably follow. :D

Capt Kirk
09-11-2014, 02:01 PM
Texican American here,

Audio guy so I have done my fair share of soldering. This thread has given me pause, I always assumed that I was pronouncing the "L" but softly. Curiosity got me and I called a partner in crime.

"Sodder" it is, for the both of us.

Curiously, the two Brits that I have been touring with, on and off, for the past four years, have never pointed this out. They quite enjoy making fun of me wrt to Americanisms, pronunciation, spelling and especially when my Texican accent peeks through. They should have been all over this.

Our discussions on the "er" vs. "re" as in center/centre, have been illuminating.

Capt

Ellis Aponte Jr.
09-11-2014, 03:47 PM
I'm still amused by Americans pronouncing "puma" as "poomer" - once I got over my bewilderment over what the heck a "poomer" is.

You would think that one would defer to the country that actually has pumas.

Doug K.
09-11-2014, 10:38 PM
You would think that one would defer to the country that actually has pumas.

In the MST3K presentation of The Pumaman they made fun of Donald Pleasance for pronouncing it Pyoo-ma. "I say put it on, you say pyoot it on."

Snupzilla
09-11-2014, 11:04 PM
If anybody could explain WHY Americans don't pronounce the "l" in solder, well, that would be a bonus ...

Because the English in England at the time the American colonies were populated had lost the L centuries before. The L was added back to the spelling to bring it line with its Latin roots and eventually pronounced as such, maybe because it sounded dirty as "Sodder". It's probably pretty similar to how we in the US sometimes bring back the T in "often" for some reason long after it was lost.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/souder#Middle_English

gigi
09-12-2014, 01:50 PM
No, but I've heard fellow Americans state they have "hurt my show-der".

I'm one of them. I pronounce the l if I think about it, because I know it's wrong, but often drop it.

jtur88
09-12-2014, 05:38 PM
The first mechanic I ever heard talk about a solenoid called it a "cell-anoid", but that might have just been a local or a personal idiosyncrasy.

Pjen
09-13-2014, 09:27 AM
How did you solder things in the 14th century (http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=solder)? :confused:

My father taught me to solder in the fifties. We used what was like a long screwdriver with a heavy three dimensional metal tip about an inch long and half an inch in diameter narrowing down to a point. This was continually reheated on a gas range and then used to melt the solder a flux applied separately.

All available via a blacksmith's fire in the 14th century and before. No electricity necessary.

wombattver
09-13-2014, 10:39 AM
Since this got missed, in the UK the element is called "aluminium." It has five syllables and is pronounced like al-YOO-min-i-um.

In Australia, it is al-ooh-MIN-ee-um with the accent on MIN and spelled "aluminium."
This is an unusual word since it is not just a difference in pronunciation, but is actually spelled differently as well. It is said the way it is spelled in that particular country.

Melbourne
09-14-2014, 08:40 PM
My father taught me to solder in the fifties. We used what was like a long screwdriver with a heavy three dimensional metal tip about an inch long and half an inch in diameter narrowing down to a point. This was continually reheated on a gas range and then used to melt the solder a flux applied separately.

All available via a blacksmith's fire in the 14th century and before. No electricity necessary.

In the 80's, plumbers here still knew how to use a propane torch to heat a soldering iron. Don't know what they do now (apart from using a lot more plastic).

The propane torch replaced the "blow torch", running on petrol/gasoline/white spirits. I see that the term "blow torch" is still used in some places, but now for a propane/lpg/whatever torch.

Plumbers were notoriously a source of house fires. You'd get the plumber in, he'd put his torch down unattended, next thing the whole house is gone. Still a problem with propane torches, but an even bigger problem with a blow torch, because they were much harder to start, and spilled burning fire if knocked over.

My rusty old blow torch actually has a soldering iron fitting: it was standard. I've never seen a fitting for a propane torch: the plumber I knew used a soldering iron like that described by Pjen to join roofing iron.

UDS
09-16-2014, 04:36 AM
I was impressed when I saw that the Americans spelled "colour" without the "u". I thought that "color" was an improvement, a more economic spelling! Also, "program" instead of "programme". But then, if they want to economize on "l's", why not change the spelling of solder to "sodder"?
Because of the ruinous expense of all the extra "d's" required.

UDS
09-16-2014, 04:44 AM
Less facetiously, it used to be spelt without an 'l' in English - it came in from French with no 'l'. But the 'l' was restored some time around the sixteenth century, in recognition of the fact that the ultimate Latin root, solidare does contain an 'l' (which the French dropped before handing the word on to the English). And since the Latin word does mean "to make solid", the 'l' does serve a useful function in reminding us of what "solder" means, and where it comes from.

johnpost
09-16-2014, 09:26 AM
What puzzles me about American pronunciations: Why do they (many of them) go out of their way to pronounce the "h" in vehicle. We don't do that in South Africa. Also, not in England.

trend setting southerns.

rden
05-10-2015, 02:28 PM
As an electronics enthusiast (from Asia) who's reasonably well traveled and listened to a lot of overseas speakers most English Commonwealth countries follow the current British pronunciation (vocalised "l") - the Brits pretty much told the commonwealth countries how to run everything - including their education.

But what about (aboot) Canada you may ask? As somebody else mentioned before USA got out the Commonwealth a long time ago so they broke off with the older variants of English words and went their own way. As US pretty much buys everything it's neighbors produce (Canada, Mexico and others nearby) those countries also fell in with USA language - keep the customer happy 101: speak their language.

Most non-English first countries, (accents aside), also generally follow British pronunciations (solder with the vocalised "l"), 1800's - 1900's the "British Empire" was big on international trade everywhere even beyond the Commonwealth (i.e. Europe, Asia, Africa), while back the the US still hadn't made it's big entrance onto the world stage (basically all time before WW 2).

USA is bigger now, but when it came to defining the way the world works they were late to the party (still trying - too hard, but ship has sailed, very few nations bother to listen to USA's ideas on how countries should be run).
They did win a few, (some that USA dominate[d]) have picked up USA style language, small parts of Vietnam, Haiti, Guam, some Caribbean countries, surprisingly Cuba - but really not many.

Strangest variant Australia - which is actually changing; "sol-dah" - (strong "l" pronounced) used to totally dominate, but in the last 10 years that has started to change; "sod-der" (no "l" sound) is taking over.
Aus (selling it's political soul to USA, and) with no deep culture of its own (having almost totally destroyed indigenous culture and now selling the native's real estate to the Chinese - but that's another topic) are becoming the next most Americanized country after Canada. [I]Actually been a really good thing for Aus, as late as just 10 years ago Asians could barely understand Aussies (USA, UK, even string Scots accent, New Zealands, South Africans, everyone except Aussies could understand) - way too many skipped syllables, completely mangled vowel sounds (they completely swapped some vowels, notably as short "i" and e" - sorry to say pronouncing 6 as "sex" worst mistake ever in Asia - and usually still not considered funny even when Aussie bad accent explained), also penchant to shortening / modifying peoples names also often offensive to Asians and too many seemingly made up words. Today, getting to more USA like accents, proper word choices and communication manners - all so much more Americanized (everyone understands American language thanks to Hollywood), people here can finally understand what they are saying (but with Aussie getting more pro USA politics still less trusted).

Kenm
05-10-2015, 03:02 PM
Western Canada: Two weeks ago I would have answered "sodder." But I was with a friend when he was using his soldering iron, and he pronounced it sol-der.

I thought of gathering the neighbours so we could all point and laugh at him, but he was fixing the block-heater cord on my car, so I didn't.

And he didn't laugh at me for having backed out without unplugging the damn thing six weeks before.

handsomeharry
05-10-2015, 04:13 PM
Same with Beta

UK Bee'ta testing.

Ew..my hears hurt!

handsomeharry
05-10-2015, 04:16 PM
The first mechanic I ever heard talk about a solenoid called it a "cell-anoid", but that might have just been a local or a personal idiosyncrasy.

I hear it pronounced "cell-" or "cill-" about 50% of the time.

Hari Seldon
05-10-2015, 07:37 PM
Why don't you pronounce the b in debt? Well, the borrowed French word was and is dette, pronounced pretty much like debt and some a-hole added the b because the Latin root had it. I suspect that the borrowed word from French was something like sodder (current French soudure) and the same a-hole added the l because the Latin source had it. Then some people decided to pronounce it, while others didn't. Just my WAG.

Really Not All That Bright
05-11-2015, 09:41 AM
But what about (aboot) Canada you may ask? As somebody else mentioned before USA got out the Commonwealth a long time ago so they broke off with the older variants of English words and went their own way. As US pretty much buys everything it's neighbors produce (Canada, Mexico and others nearby) those countries also fell in with USA language - keep the customer happy 101: speak their language.
That's really not how it works.

robert_columbia
05-11-2015, 10:03 AM
Same with Beta

US: Baa'ta testing
UK Bee'ta testing.

NYC/NJ/Philadelphia: Bay'da testing. I think my "bay" is what you meant by "baa", since I've never heard an American say "beta" with the sound a sheep makes.

robert_columbia
05-11-2015, 10:05 AM
Why don't you pronounce the b in debt? Well, the borrowed French word was and is dette, pronounced pretty much like debt and some a-hole added the b because the Latin root had it....

Which has resulted in the linguistic doublet debt/debit, which of course now have similar but not exactly the same meanings.

Best Topics: crypto racist www.wheresgeorge.com virus hdtv modulator knockout drug deadwood series finale nva generals dual tanks guava skin mulignan meaning opening socket rat cage torture northwood mortgage jesus's middle name squeezebox song japanese laserdisc ugliest insect curved drywall gizmo rules mason magic scoop ibm splits story forge ctrl + y whiskey and juice define instep drew carey kate sour candy powder doubletree mattresses french knight 210-130 diesel carbon monoxide chopstick gift can pneumonia kill synthetic underwear aqua teen hunger force carl quotes hardest high school classes how much does a stick of dynamite weigh does senator susan collins have parkinsons how to splice an extension cord stephen king message board are my hands big remove skin tag with floss basement floor wet under carpet bb gun stands for how do automatic flush toilets work chicago screws home depot faint ringing in ears funny caller id names how long does it take to develop an accent out of left field origin songs with clapping in them why do people say you know did darth vader want to kill the emperor metacafe 18 over videos pygmy hippopotamus for sale rolling code garage door this posting is being blocked how much is old sheet music worth small 3rd degree burn treatment att uverse mcafee install the ____ argues that since an infinite causal chain is impossible, god must be an uncaused cause. what does big hoss mean aron ralston prosthetic arm 90s cinemax after dark movies open canadian dollar account in usa