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View Full Version : Crusader Kings II (aka O Dear God What Have I Gotten Myself Into...)


buddha_david
09-24-2014, 09:16 AM
First, thanks to Terminus Est for gifting me a copy of this crazy game, though I foresee many hundreds of hours wasted ahead. Tonight I spent six hours clicking through menus, most of the time completely baffled by what I was looking at. Anyway, I tried a bit of intrigue that didn't have the result I was hoping for, and I'm wondering if there's a way to salvage the situation or if I should restart from an earlier save. Here's the situation.

I'm playing Gudrød Crovan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godred_Crovan) of Søreyar, with an eye to taking over Scotland and possibly the rest of Britannia (every damn tutorial/let's play that I've seen starts in Ireland or Wales, so I wanted to try something different.) After pacifying my uppity vassals and consolidating the Duchy of Gallaway, my eyes turned towards the counties of Moray & Ross for expansion. Both counties are owned by a single lord, who's currently rotting in a Scottish dungeon due to a prior rebellion, so his sister (Princess Grouch) is his sole heir. Seems like a perfect opportunity to marry into her line of succession -- except for the wrinkle that she's married and has an infant son. But no matter, I'll just whack 'em both. Problem, solution...right?

The husband's murder went swimmingly (literally -- his carriage "accidentally" crashed into a river and he drowned -- Princess Grouch herself even joined in the plot!) But there's a problem -- despite being single again, she's not available for marriage. The issue may be that my four princes aren't yet of legal age (or maybe I'm not checking the proper menus) and I was thinking, maybe it would've been better to wait and hope she conceives a daughter, who I could betroth into my dynasty, and whack her son at my leisure? Would that even work??

Meanwhile, Gudrød was horribly maimed while hunting wild boars for his winter feast (which didn't go very well) so it's probably a good idea to reload anyway....

Johnny Bravo
09-24-2014, 11:15 AM
I never understood why sometimes I'd have the list of every eligible woman in Christendom (and beyond) for my betrothal options and other times I'd only get one or two.

Age shouldn't be a problem - you can usually do a betrothal even if one or both sides of the party are too young to be immediately wed.

Terminus Est
09-24-2014, 12:00 PM
It's a puzzlement. If you go through the diplomacy screen, you'll get one list of eligible fiancé[e]s, but if you go through the character list you might get another. I've never been able to figure it out.

Maybe you can marry the sister yourself? After getting rid of your current spouse, of course. ;)

GreasyJack
09-24-2014, 03:31 PM
Is she just not showing up if you try to arrange a marriage or is it just greyed out when you try to actually send the proposal?

If it's the former, try arranging the marriage via the diplomacy menu that comes up when you right click on the portrait. If that doesn't work, I dunno.

If it's just greyed out when you propose it, you should be able to hover over the button and it'll tell you why. It's quite possible that her brother won't agree to the marriage for "political concerns." That's usually an issue with trying to marry an heiress. Also if you are trying to marry her to one of your underage sons, it can be difficult to get them to accept a marriage with a big age difference.

buddha_david
09-24-2014, 04:00 PM
If it's just greyed out when you propose it, you should be able to hover over the button and it'll tell you why. It's quite possible that her brother won't agree to the marriage for "political concerns." That's usually an issue with trying to marry an heiress. Also if you are trying to marry her to one of your underage sons, it can be difficult to get them to accept a marriage with a big age difference.
That's kinda why I'd like to reload and try something different -- her current ambition is to have a daughter, so if she succeeds, I could marry into her line with one of my many many sons and/or nephews. (I'm dreading the eventual succession crisis...)

Maybe you can marry the sister yourself? After getting rid of your current spouse, of course. ;)
Ooh...I like the way you think! :D

buddha_david
09-24-2014, 05:53 PM
Another question: How effective is, umm, "breeding" for desirable traits?

After reloading, a mysterious young courtier has shown up with several excellent traits, esp. "Genuis"! :drool: I'm thinking of betrothing her to my 8-year-old nephew, who is *also* a Genius. Does having two parents with the same trait guarantee their children will inherit it? I am a tad bit concerned about the prestige hit -- the courtier will gain 300, but I couldn't determine how it would affect my nephew's reputation.

GreasyJack
09-24-2014, 09:53 PM
According to the wikis, there's a 15% chance of congenital traits like genius being passed on, and so with both parents it'd be about double. Breeding for the good traits can work well if you've got elective succession, but in general having a guardian with good stats and a good education trait (i.e. skilled tactician, midas touched, etc) is more influential for getting a character good stats.

buddha_david
09-24-2014, 11:17 PM
How good is elective succession? Is it better than primogeniture?

GreasyJack
09-24-2014, 11:45 PM
Elective has the advantage that you can (to a certain extent) hand pick your successor. So, for example, you can pick the one son that did get the genius trait. The major drawback, though, is that all your vassals with a title one tier below yours get a vote (so, i.e., if it's a kingdom all the dukes get a vote), and so there's a chance they can elect a non dynasty member at which point you lose that title and your heir has to muck on with just the lower tier and demesne holdings.

Elective succession in practice isn't too bad because your vassals will usually vote for your hand-picked candidate if their opinion of you is pretty high and simply having elective succession creates a pretty big opinion boost. It is always risky, though, especially if you catch a bad break and have a short reign. Another problem with it is if you have two titles of the same rank (like in your case, maybe Kingdom of Scotland and Ireland) it can be tricky to get both sets of vassals to vote for the same candidate.

buddha_david
09-25-2014, 12:13 AM
Heh, at this rate it'll be centuries before I'm king of anything. My badass chancellor w/28 diplomacy unexpectedly died, and his replacement only has a 6% chance to fabricate evidence of WMDs claims against neighboring counties. :smack: Also, I went ahead and betrothed that Genius courtier to my nephew (who was my chancellor's son, that's how he got the Genius trait) and all of a sudden she's PREGNANT with another courtier's child!!! That hussy! :mad:

Rysto
09-25-2014, 12:14 AM
I've got a question about elective succession. In one game, I played in Ireland as is suggested for new players. I managed over time to conquer Wales and Scotland, and then managed to maneuver myself to be elected Queen of England, so I formed the Empire of Alba (which I guess is what the Empire of Britannia is called if an Irish ruler forms it). Through some bad luck, I had two rulers die in short succession, and while I kept Wales, Scotland and Alba, I lost the Kingdoms of England and Ireland. But not only did I lose the Kingdoms, I also lost all of my holdings in those kingdoms, which effectively crippled me. Is that normal? Is there any way to get around that?

GreasyJack
09-25-2014, 01:02 AM
I've got a question about elective succession. In one game, I played in Ireland as is suggested for new players. I managed over time to conquer Wales and Scotland, and then managed to maneuver myself to be elected Queen of England, so I formed the Empire of Alba (which I guess is what the Empire of Britannia is called if an Irish ruler forms it). Through some bad luck, I had two rulers die in short succession, and while I kept Wales, Scotland and Alba, I lost the Kingdoms of England and Ireland. But not only did I lose the Kingdoms, I also lost all of my holdings in those kingdoms, which effectively crippled me. Is that normal? Is there any way to get around that?

That probably happened because you had high (or absolute) crown authority, which makes it so lower titles can't pass outside the realm through inheritance.

I would have assumed so long as you held onto the empire title that you would retain control over the kingdom-level ones, but I guess they become independent? I've only really played with elective succession in the HRE, where I think all the kingdom-level titles are normal inherited succession, so I've never had that situation of lower titles being elective.

Terminus Est
09-25-2014, 01:19 AM
Each kingdom you hold has its own set of inheritance laws. This is true even if you're the emperor; the empire will, I believe, follow the laws of your primary kingdom, but the laws for your other kingdoms are independent. If your empire (and primary kingdom) is elective and other kingdoms are primogeniture, then the various titles may well pass to different successors.

It's a pain to have to coordinate all the different laws of succession and crown authorities. What I like to do when I become emperor is to consolidate my holdings into a single kingdom, retaining the allotted two duchies, then give away the other kingdom titles to other family members or loyal courtiers. Then I only have to worry about the laws of my one kingdom and the others can worry about their own demesnes. This also gives me fewer vassals to worry about.

buddha_david
09-25-2014, 02:11 AM
Hey, how in the world do you change who's leading the army? I'm tired of getting maimed in battle. :(

Also, is there a way to make your dissatisfied vassals revolt faster? I can't switch into Primogeniture because the Count of Clydesdale totally hates me (-100) but if he doesn't revolt soon, before the Count of Mann dies of old age, I'm really gonna be in a bind. (I'm tempted to just strip his title and swallow yet another Tyrant penalty just to get it over with...)

Jragon
09-25-2014, 03:16 AM
Also, is there a way to make your dissatisfied vassals revolt faster? I can't switch into Primogeniture because the Count of Clydesdale totally hates me (-100) but if he doesn't revolt soon, before the Count of Mann dies of old age, I'm really gonna be in a bind. (I'm tempted to just strip his title and swallow yet another Tyrant penalty just to get it over with...)

This is what assassination is for.

Alternatively, the nuclear option of CK2 is the "realm purge". The idea is that you imprison and/or strip the titles of every vassal right below you. Then you invite a bunch of new vassals to your court and appoint them, they don't have the "tyrant" penalty since they weren't there when you did it, and they also tend to have bonuses for "granted me a title." Since the only vassal opinions that matter are your direct vassals, you've just made everyone like you.

Edit: Yes, this is absurdly broken. Aside from some heavily luck-based starts CK2 is really an easy game once you spend enough time to learn exactly how broken its systems are.

buddha_david
09-25-2014, 04:06 AM
This is what assassination is for.
That's not gonna work, because his heirs hate me just as much if not worse, and for some reason assassination only has a 25% chance of succeeding. Besides, I want his county outright, so I control all the land in that duchy -- I heard that's the best way to maintain control of titles. Your "nuclear option" does sound intriguing, though it's probably more work than reloading the save before I banished my other rebellious counts -- at the time, I thought that was the only way to take over their counties. (d'oh!)

But yeah, this game does have its moments. Especially the moments that involve adultery. :cool:

clairobscur
09-25-2014, 07:40 AM
Hey, how in the world do you change who's leading the army? I'm tired of getting maimed in battle. :(


You can't always decide who is leading your army. I think it depends on crown authority (I don't remember for certain. But I'm sure there are situation where you can replace army leaders and others when you can't).

buddha_david
09-25-2014, 10:53 AM
You can't always decide who is leading your army.
That's okay, I figured it out. (This game *really* needs an in-game tutorial...)

Is it possible to fabricate evidence of WMDs a claim against one of your own vassals? It says the player will take a diplo hit if I revoke a title "if you do not have a claim" -- does that mean I can send my chancellor there to fabricate evidence of WMDs a claim on his county? That would certainly solve my current problem.

Terminus Est
09-25-2014, 10:58 AM
To be able to appoint generals, you'll need at least Limited Crown Authority (i.e., anything but Autonomous Vassals). If you're able to revoke titles then you also have the authority to appoint generals. Click on the army stack then click on the name of the general to assign another one. You can also assign generals to each flank as well as redistribute units between flanks. You can only do this if the army is not in a battle or a siege.

Macca26
09-25-2014, 10:59 AM
I found the game...difficult, to say the least. The who controls what and why bit is a bit opaque to me (for example, the talk of controlling who leads your armies and why).

And yet I feel a bit compelled to try and keep playing because I picked a ruler who birthed a firstborn son who adopted a heretic religion and started speaking in tongues. All my other sons are lovely guys (they have better stats than my original ruler at least...and are sane) but because my ruler is a simpleton who doesn't have enough influence to get a good spymaster for his court or gather conspirators, I have 0% success in plots. Hell, he doesn't even have the smarts to think up plots like "murder my insane firstborn son who will inherit my title otherwise". I can't wait until my son takes the throne and his stats of 0 across the board makes the whole thing collapse.

Crusader Kings II feels kind of like either rock climbing without a safety line, or a slow-motion train wreck, depending on what's going on.

Jragon
09-25-2014, 11:01 AM
That's okay, I figured it out. (This game *really* needs an in-game tutorial...)

Is it possible to fabricate evidence of WMDs a claim against one of your own vassals? It says the player will take a diplo hit if I revoke a title "if you do not have a claim" -- does that mean I can send my chancellor there to fabricate evidence of WMDs a claim on his county? That would certainly solve my current problem.

I don't believe so. The game really doesn't want you to revoke land from your vassals. If you have no claim, your options generally are:

Just revoke it and soak the tyrant penalty
Realm purge
Put them on the front lines in a war and hope they die (works better if they have low Martial)
Make them your spy and make them study technology in a far off country with a good spy (if they have low cunning), hoping they die.
Hope they revolt.
Assassinate them. Plots are usually better than paying money, IMO.

Edit: There's some convoluted stuff you can do through marriage, but it's such a roulette I can never get it to work.

GreasyJack
09-25-2014, 11:27 AM
Also, check if there's a plot to revoke their title in the intrigue tab. I've never entirely figured out the rhyme or reason to why revoke plots show up there, but they're a pretty sweet way to revoke without penalty if they do show up.

One slightly game-y thing you can do is temporarily replace your spymaster with a 0 intrigue one and then try to arrest the troublesome vassal. Assuming you and your wife's intrigue aren't too high, that should give you a close to single digit arrest chance, and once he rebels and you quash him you can take his title for free. Don't forget to give your old spymaster his job back!

Rysto
09-25-2014, 01:41 PM
That probably happened because you had high (or absolute) crown authority, which makes it so lower titles can't pass outside the realm through inheritance.

I would have assumed so long as you held onto the empire title that you would retain control over the kingdom-level ones, but I guess they become independent? I've only really played with elective succession in the HRE, where I think all the kingdom-level titles are normal inherited succession, so I've never had that situation of lower titles being elective.
I misspoke. They didn't become independent, but they elected Kings who were not my heir, so I lost direct control of the Kingdoms. They were still my vassals, but I lost half of my demesne to the new Kings.

Terminus Est
09-25-2014, 02:37 PM
I misspoke. They didn't become independent, but they elected Kings who were not my heir, so I lost direct control of the Kingdoms. They were still my vassals, but I lost half of my demesne to the new Kings.

Right. See my post above about different kingdoms operating under different inheritance laws.

Jragon
09-25-2014, 06:00 PM
Also, check if there's a plot to revoke their title in the intrigue tab. I've never entirely figured out the rhyme or reason to why revoke plots show up there, but they're a pretty sweet way to revoke without penalty if they do show up.

One slightly game-y thing you can do is temporarily replace your spymaster with a 0 intrigue one and then try to arrest the troublesome vassal. Assuming you and your wife's intrigue aren't too high, that should give you a close to single digit arrest chance, and once he rebels and you quash him you can take his title for free. Don't forget to give your old spymaster his job back!

A revocation plot shows up if a direct vassal owns a county that is de jure part of your ruler's primary duchy.

buddha_david
09-25-2014, 06:53 PM
One slightly game-y thing you can do is temporarily replace your spymaster with a 0 intrigue one and then try to arrest the troublesome vassal.
But doesn't arresting someone without cause also give you a tyrant penalty? The uppity count has formed an "Independence Faction", but I'm still charged a penalty if I try to arrest or revoke him.

A revocation plot shows up if a direct vassal owns a county that is de jure part of your ruler's primary duchy.
Where would I find that plot if it's available?

Also, is there any advantage to pressing claims on behalf of your courtiers? I just pressed a weak claim against a petty kingdom in Wales, thinking it would give me control of two more counties, but instead it just installed the lowborn as the new duchess. She likes me a lot now, but I didn't even gain any prestige or money or anything! :confused:

buddha_david
09-25-2014, 07:43 PM
By the way, umm, how concerned should I be that the Duke of Lannister next door has fabricated a claim against one of my core counties? :eek:

GreasyJack
09-25-2014, 08:43 PM
But doesn't arresting someone without cause also give you a tyrant penalty? The uppity count has formed an "Independence Faction", but I'm still charged a penalty if I try to arrest or revoke him.

Oh, oops. I coulda sworn you didn't get the penalty for failed arrest attempts, but I just tried it and I guess not.

If all else fails, you could just grant him independence, switch to primogeniture and then I think you should probably still have a claim on his county so you can just reconquer him.



Where would I find that plot if it's available?

Also, is there any advantage to pressing claims on behalf of your courtiers? I just pressed a weak claim against a petty kingdom in Wales, thinking it would give me control of two more counties, but instead it just installed the lowborn as the new duchess. She likes me a lot now, but I didn't even gain any prestige or money or anything! :confused:

Under the intrigue tab, there will sometimes be a "choose plot" button available. Apparently the revoke plot only shows up if it's a county that's de jure in your main duchy.

Pressing a title for someone else is really tricky. In general the contested title will wind up under your control only if the title is lower than your highest title and if the claimant is already a vassal or is a dynasty member. Usually if you can give the claimant a barony somewhere or something before you start the war, it'll work. You can also sometimes just get them to accept vassalization right after the war if it's a neighboring county and they've got the same religion and culture group.

That's incidentally the one reason I don't really play this game in ironman mode. I still after 340 hours in (yikes!) wind up screwing up those claimaint wars more often then not. I wish there were some sort of "what if?" thing you could run to figure out what will happen if you win a war before you fight it.

buddha_david
09-25-2014, 09:22 PM
Pressing a title for someone else is really tricky. In general the contested title will wind up under your control only if the title is lower than your highest title and if the claimant is already a vassal or is a dynasty member. Usually if you can give the claimant a barony somewhere or something before you start the war, it'll work.
How do I give a barony to someone?

Rysto
09-25-2014, 09:46 PM
Also, is there any advantage to pressing claims on behalf of your courtiers? I just pressed a weak claim against a petty kingdom in Wales, thinking it would give me control of two more counties, but instead it just installed the lowborn as the new duchess. She likes me a lot now, but I didn't even gain any prestige or money or anything! :confused:

Yeah, this is tricky. In my Ireland game after becoming the King of Ireland I started looking at taking over Wales. Unfortunately for me, somehow the King of Portugal controlled one of the duchies, and Portugal was strong enough to grind me to paste if I tried to fight them one-on-one. As it happened, though, I had a courtier with a claim on that Duchy, and I happened to catch Portugal at a time when they were fighting 2 or 3 other wars, so I jumped in and kicked out Portugal. This left the duchy independent, allowing me to fabricate a claim at my leisure and fight an easy war against a weak independent duke.

That's a rare situation of course. Usually you're not doing yourself any good for installing a new independent ruler. I wish it were possible to make a deal to press somebody's claim if they promise to acknowledge you as their ruler afterwards.

buddha_david
09-25-2014, 10:15 PM
Okay, now I have a serious problem!

I went ahead and revoked Count Clyde's title anyway, and spread some money around to placate the vassals who were pissed off -- and now it turns out I *can't* revolt to Primogeniture anyway, unless I become the King of Scotland first!!! Strangely enough, Ultimogeniture (youngest child inherits) is available, but revolting to that one REALLY pissed everyone off, especially my older kids. Gah!! I don't want to be in gavelkind!

So, umm, what should I do now? (Aside from arranging "accidents" for three of my four sons...)

GreasyJack
09-25-2014, 11:30 PM
How do I give a barony to someone?

The baronies are just the sub-county castle holdings. Unlike the cities and churches, nobles can hold them just like a normal county. They're handy to have to give out so you can make a claimant your vassal without ceding them a whole county. Of course, usually you don't have one, so you have to give them some out of the way county from your demesne.

Okay, now I have a serious problem!

I went ahead and revoked Count Clyde's title anyway, and spread some money around to placate the vassals who were pissed off -- and now it turns out I *can't* revolt to Primogeniture anyway, unless I become the King of Scotland first!!! Strangely enough, Ultimogeniture (youngest child inherits) is available, but revolting to that one REALLY pissed everyone off, especially my older kids. Gah!! I don't want to be in gavelkind!

So, umm, what should I do now? (Aside from arranging "accidents" for three of my four sons...)

I've sort of come to the conclusion that gavelkind isn't that bad. Since your little brothers are in the same boat of having the short reign penalties, and you get the best of the holdings and claims on theirs, it's usually pretty easy to just kick their butts and get everything back immediately. Winning an easy war or two right out of the gate also puts you in a lot better position with your other vassals, whereas primogeniture gives a small opinion penalty to everyone and a big opinion penalty to any claimants so you often end up spending the first few years of your reign fighting civil wars anyways.

Terminus Est
09-25-2014, 11:35 PM
How do I give a barony to someone?

You give a barony the same way you give any other title. Go to a character's diplomacy screen, then click on "Grant Landed Title" and choose from the list of available titles. I think they're even conveniently sorted by rank. You need to be holding the title yourself in order to grant it.

Terminus Est
09-26-2014, 12:00 AM
I've sort of come to the conclusion that gavelkind isn't that bad. Since your little brothers are in the same boat of having the short reign penalties, and you get the best of the holdings and claims on theirs, it's usually pretty easy to just kick their butts and get everything back immediately. Winning an easy war or two right out of the gate also puts you in a lot better position with your other vassals, whereas primogeniture gives a small opinion penalty to everyone and a big opinion penalty to any claimants so you often end up spending the first few years of your reign fighting civil wars anyways.

Gavelkind was rather buggy on the game's release. The titles were sorted by rank and value, with the highest title going to the oldest son, the next highest going to the second son and so on. The problem is that it would often give the duchy (or kingdom as the case may be) to the oldest son, then divvy up the counties in the duchy among the other sons, leaving you (the player) with no actual land to support yourself. If you did get a county, it would often be in some godforsaken corner of the realm. This was only fixed much later (I want to say after The Old Gods was released), such that higher-level titles (duchies or kingdoms) always came with at least the capital.

buddha_david
09-26-2014, 12:13 AM
Gavelkind was rather buggy on the game's release. The titles were sorted by rank and value, with the highest title going to the oldest son, the next highest going to the second son and so on. The problem is that it would often give the duchy (or kingdom as the case may be) to the oldest son, then divvy up the counties in the duchy among the other sons, leaving you (the player) with no actual land to support yourself. If you did get a county, it would often be in some godforsaken corner of the realm. This was only fixed much later (I want to say after The Old Gods was released), such that higher-level titles (duchies or kingdoms) always came with at least the capital.
Well, if King Gudrød were to die tomorrow, his second son would get the lion's share of the realm (Duchy of Galloway, plus two of its counties) which isn't so bad, I was thinking of granting that to him if my demense ever gets too big. My firstborn would get the capital county, son #3 would get the second county (I forget what it's called) and little Jorundr wouldn't get diddly-squat. I didn't know that gavelkind succession automatically gives you claims on the territories you lost, so that does make it less onerous. Plus I'm getting a really big opinion boost from my vassals with gavelkind as well.

On the other hand, I'm tempted to try Elective Succession, and voting for my genius nephew to inherit everything, leaving my good-for-nothing kids in the lurch... :cool:

Another question: In times of peace, is it better to have my Marshal research technology (seem to be falling behind in that regard) or have him train troops in case I get surprise attacked?

Jragon
09-26-2014, 01:24 AM
Under the intrigue tab, there will sometimes be a "choose plot" button available. Apparently the revoke plot only shows up if it's a county that's de jure in your main duchy.

Pressing a title for someone else is really tricky. In general the contested title will wind up under your control only if the title is lower than your highest title and if the claimant is already a vassal or is a dynasty member. Usually if you can give the claimant a barony somewhere or something before you start the war, it'll work. You can also sometimes just get them to accept vassalization right after the war if it's a neighboring county and they've got the same religion and culture group.

I use a "revolving door" county. I grant them the least valuable county in my primary duchy, press their claim, then start a revocation plot and take the initial county back. The attitude bonus for "pressed my claim" far outweighs any penalty for revoking the county.

I've grabbed entire kingdoms in quick succession this way once I was an emperor.

buddha_david
09-26-2014, 05:44 AM
Well, that Welsh duchess who I helped claim the throne of Wales showed up back at my court, with her kid in tow -- she didn't last a year before getting deposed. :smack: Last time I stick out my neck for someone...

Oh, and that assassination plot against Count Clyde hasn't gone anywhere yet -- it's at 89.5%, does it need to be 100% before anything happens?

Recusant
09-26-2014, 08:18 AM
By the way, umm, how concerned should I be that the Duke of Lannister next door has fabricated a claim against one of my core counties? :eek:

Very. This means that he has somehow opened a portal from the Game of Thrones mod, and is formulating claims on territories in the vanilla game. Medieval soldiers against dragons... I don't like your chances. Better kill him now.

The duke of Lancaster, on the other hand, is a much smaller threat. Kill him anyway.

Jragon
09-26-2014, 11:43 AM
Well, that Welsh duchess who I helped claim the throne of Wales showed up back at my court, with her kid in tow -- she didn't last a year before getting deposed. :smack: Last time I stick out my neck for someone...

Oh, and that assassination plot against Count Clyde hasn't gone anywhere yet -- it's at 89.5%, does it need to be 100% before anything happens?

CK2 assassination plots work on the principle of "mean time to fire". 100% plot power means that, on average, it will take 1 year to happen. I think 80% is the baseline to actually occur, but it will take a while. (You also need at least one co-conspirator).

buddha_david
09-26-2014, 01:14 PM
Well, at this rate it's gonna be a race between the assassination plot and the plague of tuberculosis that's killing everyone... and the peasants are revolting... ah, what fun!

Very. This means that he has somehow opened a portal from the Game of Thrones mod, and is formulating claims on territories in the vanilla game. Medieval soldiers against dragons... I don't like your chances. Better kill him now.

The duke of Lancaster, on the other hand, is a much smaller threat. Kill him anyway.
Oops... apparently it was the Duke of Lothian, my bad. Except the plot's gone now, since he died "under suspicious circumstances" and was replaced by his brother... hmm...

Another question: How do you get rid of courtiers you don't want hanging around? (Like, people with high intrigue but a low opinion of me.) Sometimes I can marry them off to someone in a county far away, but if they're already married, there doesn't seem to be any way to get rid of them.

buddha_david
09-26-2014, 09:05 PM
Incidentally, this image (http://i.imgur.com/nBeL5V9.jpg?1) from a Reddit thread (http://reddit.com/r/CrusaderKings/comments/2hbbpn/the_chaste/) gave me a huge laugh.

Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor
09-26-2014, 09:20 PM
Is it Win 8.1 compatible?

Terminus Est
09-27-2014, 01:23 AM
Another question: How do you get rid of courtiers you don't want hanging around? (Like, people with high intrigue but a low opinion of me.) Sometimes I can marry them off to someone in a county far away, but if they're already married, there doesn't seem to be any way to get rid of them.

You could put them in command of a single army unit then send it against those peasants that are revolting. If that doesn't work, park him in the diseased region.

Is it Win 8.1 compatible?

The game's system requirements are extremely modest. I haven't heard of any problems running it under Windows 8.1.

clairobscur
09-27-2014, 01:37 AM
Usually if you can give the claimant a barony somewhere or something before you start the war, it'll work.

Yes, that's what I used to do before pressing a claim.

clairobscur
09-27-2014, 01:53 AM
On the other hand, I'm tempted to try Elective Succession, and voting for my genius nephew to inherit everything, leaving my good-for-nothing kids in the lurch... :cool:



I love elective succession for this reason. You can pick either the genious, or the guy whose wife is an heiress or important claimant.

People should stop talking about games. Someone started a thread asking what games you never finished, so I decided to finish all Elder Scrolls games (started all, generally many times, never finished one) so, I began playing Arena. Someone else started a thread about XCom (which I started often and never finished either), so I began to alternate (welcome change because Arena can get boring). Then a thread appeared for the release of Wasteland, and I'm playing three games at the same time. Then tropico. I resisted so far but not sure I will for long (plus, Tropico games are relatively short, so maybe I could squeeze one somewhere?). And now I have the urge to play CKII too and I suspect I won't resist. :smack:

buddha_david
09-27-2014, 04:10 AM
The barony idea does sound good for the Welsh lady. 700 gold to build a castle is obscenely expensive though, esp. this early in the game. But I don't really want to give her a county.

Ok, Prince Olaf has come of age (he was born with a stutter, so I picture him walking around the castle going, "Fuck! Fuck! Fuck, fuck, fuck and fuck! Fuck, fuck and bugger! Bugger, bugger, buggerty buggerty buggerty, fuck, fuck, arse!") and I've reached a decision point as to who he should marry. My primary plan is to try and marry the Duchess of Moray, but her husband needs to take a dirt nap first (and the plotters sure are taking their sweet time, even with his Spymaster, Chancellor, Marshall, and even the Duchess herself in on the plot!) but I don't know yet if she'll even accept. Plus, she's 37, and I've already arranged a matrilineal marriage between her son and King Gudrod's daughter, so there's a backup plan. The other option I was looking at was a Norwegian Duke's daughter, who's 16 and may gain a claim on the Duchy north of Scotland, which is good because I want to keep my dynasty's bloodline pure. (In the words of King Longshanks: "If we can't root them out, we'll breed them out...")

However, by randomly clicking through menus I discovered a potential bride who has 22 INTRIGUE and would make a great spymaster! She has no titles, but at least is related to a king so I won't take a prestige hit. Should I go for it?

Dale Sams
09-27-2014, 04:52 PM
Eff those Moray bastards.

buddha_david
09-27-2014, 10:37 PM
Another question: When going to war with someone, do I have to actually occupy the county I have a claim on to gain it? Or do I merely have to bash their army around & besiege some weaker counties while leaving that heavily-defended county alone?

Captain Amazing
09-27-2014, 11:19 PM
You don't technically have to actually occupy it, but if you don't actually hold it, the guy who does gets a pretty big bonus to his warscore.

My biggest problem is crashing. I'll play it for a little while, and then it'll start crashing after maybe about 10 minutes. If I do a clean install, that fixes it, for a little bit, then after a while, it does the same thing again. No idea what's going on there or how to fix it.

Terminus Est
09-28-2014, 01:40 AM
Another question: When going to war with someone, do I have to actually occupy the county I have a claim on to gain it? Or do I merely have to bash their army around & besiege some weaker counties while leaving that heavily-defended county alone?

Your real objective in any war is to gain warscore. Once you get to 100% warscore the enemy will be forced to surrender. They may surrender before it reaches 100% (and it's often worth it to negotiate) but surrender is guaranteed at 100%. Similarly, if your warscore is -100% (i.e., the enemy's warscore is +100%), then you will be forced to surrender.

You can gain warscore in several ways:

winning battles, depending on the number of enemy solders killed
occupying enemy holdings; you get significant bonuses for occupying the enemy demesne, capital, or territory under dispute
capturing prisoners; if you capture the enemy leader, your warscore immediately goes to 100%
you gain 'ticking' warscore if you continuously occupy all of the war goal (this includes minor holdings)


You can certainly run around the countryside bashing enemy armies. Indeed, if you've defeated the entire enemy army, you'll get 75% warscore. But consider while you're doing this, the enemy will gain ticking warscore simply for holding their territory intact. Better to occupy at least some of the war goal; even a single county will do. If that single county is the only one under dispute, you might as well occupy the minor holdings, too. Then you'll be the one gaining ticking warscore.

See the CKII Wiki for Warfare (http://ckiiwiki.com/Warfare) for more information and strategy tips.

buddha_david
09-28-2014, 02:05 AM
Well it looks like I'm not going to war on Scotland for a little while, since Norway called me into war against Sweden & Denmark over some piddly county and I'm not about to invade Scotland w/o my Norwegian allies. I'm close to having 700 gold to build a castle for that Welsh lady, but the only free land in my demesne is in Ireland -- wondering if I should spend the money on that, or upgrade military buildings instead?

Also, what are the best things to look for when selecting a wife for my heir? The Genius Catalan spymaster's no longer available (though I could restart from an autosave and hook her up with my Genius nephew) but there is a Norwegian count's daughter available, who's not only the right culture but has MIDAS TOUCHED as her major stat. Prince Olaf will lose -100 prestige for marrying her, though -- is that a problem?

Jragon
09-28-2014, 02:22 AM
The only things I ever spend money to build are castle towns (for taxes) and retinue increasing holdings. I'll do number of levy buildings too, but only after those others. Retinue is just so important. Absolutely the most important use of your money is getting your retinue up to cap if you can. You should probably always get skirmish retinue because they have the most units per cap. Why? Because your relative strength compared to your vassals will go way up, which drastically lowers their chance of rebelling. After that, money is good for bribing your vassals.

I also only hold on to land in my capital Duchy. It's easier to have consolidated holdings because then when people rebel you're not split up everywhere. You also have more revolving door counties for pressing claims.

That is unless your only county in your capital duchy is your capital county in which case don't do that. I wouldn't waste my money on new baronies until way later.

Edit: Also, I was wrong about "plot to revoke" the way it happens is if a duke-level or higher vassal own territory outside their de jure borders that should belong to another duke-or-higher vassal.

buddha_david
09-28-2014, 02:52 AM
I don't even know what retinues are. :confused:

Jragon
09-28-2014, 02:55 AM
I don't even know what retinues are. :confused:

A standing army. There's a retinue tab in one of the menus. I think you may need the Legacy of Rome DLC which isn't very expensive. I'd get it if you get no other expansions, retinues are, IMO, a very important mechanic.

http://ckiiwiki.com/Retinues

buddha_david
09-28-2014, 01:32 PM
Well, this game's officially gotten silly. King Godrud's started having an affair with one of his courtiers, who's also a dwarf with some really mixed-up traits (Grey Eminence, Diligent, Temperate & Honest, but also Paranoid, Zealous, and somehow picked up "Lunatic" recently.) He's already had one kid by her, luckily nobody found out, but I didn't want to create a scandal -- so I formed a tiny regiment of soldiers with her husband as the leader, and sent them on a suicide mission to the war in Sweden. So, basically, I just pulled a King David for some crazy paranoid midget sex.

Thing is... it didn't work. The soldiers were wiped out, as expected, but her husband teleported back to my capital safe and sound! What gives?

Jragon
09-28-2014, 03:01 PM
Leaders only have a chance to die in battle. Losing increases the chance they'll get captured or killed, but it's by absolutely no means a guarantee.

buddha_david
09-28-2014, 10:28 PM
Well it looks like I'm gonna have to fight the upcoming war with Scotland alone, since Norway's still grinding away at Sweden (and losing badly) so there should be plenty of chances for him to die in battle soon...

By the way, is there any advantage at all to having your king lead the army? His Martial skill's only 9, but the game always auto-selects him for some reason.

Rick Kitchen
09-28-2014, 10:47 PM
Can't you plot to murder the girlfriend's husband?

buddha_david
09-28-2014, 11:06 PM
Can't you plot to murder the girlfriend's husband?
Suppose I could, but it seems hardly worth the effort. Besides I've got too many other plots in the queue -- first, the son of the Duke of Orkney needs to die, so my second son's wife will inherit. Then there's those pesky descendants of the former Count of Carrick & Galloway, who all have strong claims since their daddy died in prison after I put down his rebellion and stripped his titles. One of them's already taken a dirt nap, but my stupid half-sister got drunk and blabbed about the plot, so everyone thinks I'm a disgrace now. I'm swamped.

Mosier
09-28-2014, 11:21 PM
Well it looks like I'm gonna have to fight the upcoming war with Scotland alone, since Norway's still grinding away at Sweden (and losing badly) so there should be plenty of chances for him to die in battle soon...

By the way, is there any advantage at all to having your king lead the army? His Martial skill's only 9, but the game always auto-selects him for some reason.

Having your ruler lead an army is a lot like gambling. There are some random events that can happen during battles, which can increase your prestige, give you the brave trait, or remove the craven trait. There is also a laundry list of bad things that can happen, like a very small chance that you'll be wounded, killed, or receive the craven trait.

Martial skill of 9 is respectable, but not great. In most duke-level realms, or in a small kingdom like Turkistan or Burgundy, one flank of your army will probably be led by someone with around 9 martial skill. The bigger your realm, the more characters are in your pool of available commanders, the higher the threshold is for a "good" commander. Bigger kingdoms will tend toward having better commanders, simply by virtue of having more candidates and more chances for rolling great stats.

buddha_david
09-29-2014, 12:50 AM
I have a bunch of courtiers with 12+ martial, mostly invited from other courts where they hated their liege, so there's no shortage of decent commanders. Sure could use a better spymaster, though.

BTW, Pro Tip: If there's children in your realm who have strong claims on your territory, offering to educate them in your own court is a nearly foolproof way of "fixing" the problem. :cool:

clairobscur
09-29-2014, 08:02 AM
Well it looks like I'm not going to war on Scotland for a little while, since Norway called me into war against Sweden & Denmark over some piddly county and I'm not about to invade Scotland w/o my Norwegian allies. I'm close to having 700 gold to build a castle for that Welsh lady, but the only free land in my demesne is in Ireland -- wondering if I should spend the money on that, or upgrade military buildings instead?

I wouldn't spend 700 just to get a claimant to join me, generally speaking, but I'm a builder, and I believe it's very worth it in the long term. However, contrarily to a previous player, I build towns in priority, because they make a lot of money, and money-making improvements. Yes, the retinue is important, but with money, you can build more retinue-making buildings, and hire mercenaries and so on.

Thinking of which, I wonder whether a claimant would stay your vassal after a successful war if he was a mayor instead of a baron, or if at the contrary he would become independant *and* keep your town.


Also, what are the best things to look for when selecting a wife for my heir? The Genius Catalan spymaster's no longer available (though I could restart from an autosave and hook her up with my Genius nephew) but there is a Norwegian count's daughter available, who's not only the right culture but has MIDAS TOUCHED as her major stat. Prince Olaf will lose -100 prestige for marrying her, though -- is that a problem?

I think good stats in a spouse make up for a loss of prestige. Having the same culture is also convenient. For instance she could raise children and give them a better financial skill without changing their culture. However, an administrative skill might be better for the extra holdings in your demesne.

buddha_david
09-29-2014, 09:02 AM
Wow, siege warfare sure takes forever in this game. I promised my genius nephew a title when he begged me for one, thinking I'd have a new county very soon, but instead it took TWO YEARS -- now he's got a -50 malus for "breaking a promise" even though I've given him the county now! Grrrr.

At least I fixed the eventual succession crisis by appointing two sons as bishop heirs; now my demesne will be split evenly in half instead of leaving the crown prince with only ONE county.

Thinking of which, I wonder whether a claimant would stay your vassal after a successful war if he was a mayor instead of a baron, or if at the contrary he would become independant *and* keep your town.
Well, the Welsh lady became independent when I went warred for her, though she wasn't landed yet. Soon I'll have a new county in Ireland to grant her (actually I have to give it to her husband, for some reason she's "not eligible" for a land title) plus my niece is matrilinealy betrothed to her son, so we'll see what happens.

Another question: How long do alliances with other kingdoms last? The CKII wiki is annoyingly unclear about that.

Jragon
09-29-2014, 07:36 PM
Wow, siege warfare sure takes forever in this game.

That's because they're actually sieges unlike most games which are castle assault games. You're literally camping outside, killing supply lines, and generally starving them out until they give up.

You can assault, but you generally only do that once you've blobbed out into a mega-empire. In one of my world conquests I have a bunch of stacks of 20-30k units and every time I declare a war, run over and assault everything and then peace in 2-3 months.

Rysto
09-29-2014, 08:56 PM
I misspoke. They didn't become independent, but they elected Kings who were not my heir, so I lost direct control of the Kingdoms. They were still my vassals, but I lost half of my demesne to the new Kings.

As people seemed confused by this, I save scummed to go back and try to figure out what happened. My best guess is that the Emperor of Alba title went to some distant cousin (probably the King of Scotland) so for gameplay purposes, that was my dynastic heir, not my underaged son who inherited the Duchy of Ulster and all of the provinces in it.

I took a lesson from the whole debacle and worked to eliminate all of the ducal titles in Ireland. As Britanny (a Kingdom with only a single Duchy in it) taught me, if there is only one other Duke in the Kingdom, you have complete control over the succession if you have elective succession. You lose some ongoing prestige that having some vassal Dukes would get you, but having complete control over the succession (and my power base in Ireland) is totally worth it. What bugs me a bit is that ages ago when I conquered Wales, I made the mistake of leaving half of my demesne in Wales and giving up a bunch of counties in Ireland. Now whenever I go to war I have to do some fancy maneuvers to get everything onto a ship and arrive at the target simultaneously (and when the King of England rebelled, my levies there were useless at the beginning because if I raised them he could just obliterate them.

Being an Emperor makes the game ridiculously easy to expand wholesale. I now control an empire that spans from the Kingdom of Rus in the northeast, all of Scandinavia, Britain and Spain, as well as the Kingdoms of Brittany, France and Aquitaine. The trick is to keep them all from rebelling. Mercenaries help a lot there.

Rysto
09-29-2014, 09:03 PM
Another question: How long do alliances with other kingdoms last? The CKII wiki is annoyingly unclear about that.

As long as you have family ties to the ruler of the other nation. If he (or she) is of the same dynasty as you, you remain allies indefinitely. If it's through marriage then I think that you or your children need to be married to the other ruler or his children.

Oh, the wiki has this to say on the Marriage page (http://ckiiwiki.com/Marriage#Alliances):
You are automatically allied to a ruler if you, your child, or your sibling, is married to them, their child, or their sibling.

buddha_david
09-29-2014, 09:44 PM
As long as you have family ties to the ruler of the other nation. If he (or she) is of the same dynasty as you, you remain allies indefinitely. If it's through marriage then I think that you or your children need to be married to the other ruler or his children.

Oh, the wiki has this to say on the Marriage page (http://ckiiwiki.com/Marriage#Alliances):
Yeah, that's what I was unclear about, how long these alliances last before the relationship becomes too distant. My current alliance with England is based on King Gudrod's half-brother's wife, which seemed kinda tenuous, so I had my fourth son marry the daughter of a duke who's the current heir apparent. Hopefully that should protect me from the Southern Menace for awhile.

I'm rather baffled by some of these lines of inheritance, though -- for instance, the King of Norway's heir is NOT his eldest son (who I could marry to my youngest daughter if I so chose, not matrilinealy though) but some other Duke who doesn't seem to have any family ties at all!!! How in the world does that work?

Rysto
09-30-2014, 12:01 AM
I'm rather baffled by some of these lines of inheritance, though -- for instance, the King of Norway's heir is NOT his eldest son (who I could marry to my youngest daughter if I so chose, not matrilinealy though) but some other Duke who doesn't seem to have any family ties at all!!! How in the world does that work?

The Kingdom of Norway has elective succession. This means that the current King and all of the Dukes get one vote as to who the next King will be (and holding multiple voter titles does not give you multiple votes). Gaining control of an elective monarchy through marriage is more difficult but the current King's children do get claims on the Kingdom which you can press through war, so it is possible.

It's very difficult to hold multiple Kingdoms that all have elective succession too. That's what makes being an Emperor so nice. The Kings are still your vassals no matter who gains the Kingdom.

GreasyJack
09-30-2014, 01:06 AM
Yeah, that's what I was unclear about, how long these alliances last before the relationship becomes too distant. My current alliance with England is based on King Gudrod's half-brother's wife, which seemed kinda tenuous, so I had my fourth son marry the daughter of a duke who's the current heir apparent. Hopefully that should protect me from the Southern Menace for awhile.

I think as far as alliances go, either you've got one or you don't. It doesn't matter if the parties are the ruler, a sibling or a child. It can be a good idea to have multiple marriages across the generations to prevent the alliance from being dissolved by an inopportunely-timed death, but having more or closer marriage ties doesn't boost their opinion any further or make them any more likely to join one of your wars.


I'm rather baffled by some of these lines of inheritance, though -- for instance, the King of Norway's heir is NOT his eldest son (who I could marry to my youngest daughter if I so chose, not matrilinealy though) but some other Duke who doesn't seem to have any family ties at all!!! How in the world does that work?

Just to add, the "heir" as listed in the character screen actually isn't all that important for non-player characters. It's basically just who the game would jump to if that character died while being played. If the primary title is elective, the heir will automatically switch to whoever has the most votes IF they're a dynasty member. Otherwise I think it reverts to the dynasty member who is set to inherit the next most important of your titles. You can only get the non-dynasty heir game over state if none of your titles are inherited by a dynasty member.

Your King of Norway's random duke heir is probably part of some far-flung branch of the Yngling dynasty and is the heir either because he's currently leading the election for King or because there's a non-Yngling currently leading and the random duke is poised to inherit one of the lower titles.

clairobscur
09-30-2014, 11:16 AM
Just to add, the "heir" as listed in the character screen actually isn't all that important for non-player characters. It's basically just who the game would jump to if that character died while being played. If the primary title is elective, the heir will automatically switch to whoever has the most votes IF they're a dynasty member. Otherwise I think it reverts to the dynasty member who is set to inherit the next most important of your titles. You can only get the non-dynasty heir game over state if none of your titles are inherited by a dynasty member.


It took me a while and several readings to understand (I think) what you explained here.

Does this mean that I can't know for certain who will be the next elected king, because the game will always show a relative of the current king, whether or not he's leading in the votes?

For instance, I notice that the duke Y, first cousin of the current king, is indicated as heir, I plan accordingly (say, a marriage), get the current king murdered to further my goal, and then surprise, the new king is the completely unrelated Duke X who was in fact leading the votes unbestknown to me?

buddha_david
09-30-2014, 11:27 AM
Does this mean that I can't know for certain who will be the next elected king, because the game will always show a relative of the current king, whether or not he's leading in the votes?
I was about to ask the same question. Every time I check, it seems like there's a different person indicated as Norway's heir. England's the same way.

In fact, half of England suddenly went into revolt, which is being led by the Duke who was set to be the new king, and whose daughter I just married to my second son -- awkwaaard!

GreasyJack
09-30-2014, 01:44 PM
It took me a while and several readings to understand (I think) what you explained here.

Does this mean that I can't know for certain who will be the next elected king, because the game will always show a relative of the current king, whether or not he's leading in the votes?

For instance, I notice that the duke Y, first cousin of the current king, is indicated as heir, I plan accordingly (say, a marriage), get the current king murdered to further my goal, and then surprise, the new king is the completely unrelated Duke X who was in fact leading the votes unbestknown to me?

It just changes who's listed as the heir in the character screen. If you mouse hover over the crest for the title, it'll tell you what the line of succession is for the title itself. For elective titles, it'll be the current top three vote-getters so that's how you'd figure that out. The heir and the person who is first in line for the primary title are usually the same person, but not so if someone from outside the dynasty is currently leading the voting.

Mosier
10-01-2014, 12:30 AM
Well, the Welsh lady became independent when I went warred for her, though she wasn't landed yet. Soon I'll have a new county in Ireland to grant her (actually I have to give it to her husband, for some reason she's "not eligible" for a land title) plus my niece is matrilinealy betrothed to her son, so we'll see what happens.

I can explain why she became independent. It's one of two things.

First, you cannot vassalize anyone with a title equal to yours. If your highest title is duke (or petty king, or shah, or whatever duke-level title your culture uses), and you press duchy-level claim for someone, when you win the war there will be no circumstance under which the territory will end up in your realm. The new duke will be independent, and have a +100 relationship bonus with you.

Second, you were not her liege to begin with. Only landed characters can be vassals. Unlanded characters can be in your court, but they are NOT vassals. If you press a claim for an unlanded person, they will become an independent ruler at the end of the war. However if you give that person any land prior to the war, they will remain your vassal, as long as their new title is not equal to or higher than yours.

A very effective method of expansion (only if you're a king!) is to use any extra territory you come across as a hook to bring people into your realm who have duchy-level claims. For example, anytime you have the opportunity to revoke a minor barony, (for example, when they rebel and you imprison them, or when you catch them plotting against you), look around at the foreign duchy titles next to your realm. There's almost always at least one that has a very unhappy, unlanded person who is willing to join your court. Give this ambitious second-son the title you just revoked, press his ducal claim, and presto! Your realm just grew by 3 or 4 counties!

Jragon
10-01-2014, 01:15 AM
A very effective method of expansion (only if you're a king!) is to use any extra territory you come across as a hook to bring people into your realm who have duchy-level claims. For example, anytime you have the opportunity to revoke a minor barony, (for example, when they rebel and you imprison them, or when you catch them plotting against you), look around at the foreign duchy titles next to your realm. There's almost always at least one that has a very unhappy, unlanded person who is willing to join your court. Give this ambitious second-son the title you just revoked, press his ducal claim, and presto! Your realm just grew by 3 or 4 counties!

I really think it's better to give them one of your own counties in your capital duchy (once you're a king). Once you finish pressing their claim you can just plot to revoke and get it back. Sometimes they go to war with you over it, but you basically just have to sit on the county for a month* and get it back and that's usually sufficient to win the war. The "pressed my claim" bonus is so massive you basically never have to worry about opinion with them again, even after a quashed rebellion and title revocation.

* Honestly, usually I just use my retinue to assault. I deliberately keep my temp county with really low defense.

buddha_david
10-01-2014, 01:43 AM
If you mouse hover over the crest for the title, it'll tell you what the line of succession is for the title itself. For elective titles, it'll be the current top three vote-getters so that's how you'd figure that out. The heir and the person who is first in line for the primary title are usually the same person, but not so if someone from outside the dynasty is currently leading the voting.
Ah, that does make it easier to figure out what's going on. Thanks.

First, you cannot vassalize anyone with a title equal to yours. If your highest title is duke (or petty king, or shah, or whatever duke-level title your culture uses), and you press duchy-level claim for someone, when you win the war there will be no circumstance under which the territory will end up in your realm. The new duke will be independent, and have a +100 relationship bonus with you.

Second, you were not her liege to begin with. Only landed characters can be vassals. Unlanded characters can be in your court, but they are NOT vassals. If you press a claim for an unlanded person, they will become an independent ruler at the end of the war. However if you give that person any land prior to the war, they will remain your vassal, as long as their new title is not equal to or higher than yours.
Huh...all this time I thought I was king, only to discover I'm just a lowly duke. How embarrassing!

So, umm, how do I declare myself a *real* king?

Jragon
10-01-2014, 04:41 AM
Huh...all this time I thought I was king, only to discover I'm just a lowly duke. How embarrassing!

So, umm, how do I declare myself a *real* king?

It's... complicated. Sort of, it's easy once you understand it but hard to describe. There's a button when you select a county that shows you the duchy it's in. You'll want to tick the box that says "show de jure" or something like that. You'll see that your duchy is part of the Kingdom of X. Click on the Kingdom and it will show you that.

What you need to do is own (personally or through vassals) over some percentage of the land in the kingdom (I believe over 75%?) as well as own a certain percentage of the duchies in the kingdom (I think it usually amounts to two or three). After that you can pay some prestige and a lot of gold to "create" the title, which makes you a king.

The other option is "usurping" the title, which you may have to do if it happens that the region you're in already has a king. This is more complicated, but instructions for how to do it should be over the "usurp" button if you hover over it in game. It's basically the same as creating a title, but the requirements are a bit more stringent and there are restrictions that may prevent you from doing it. I.E. If it's that person's last title you can't usurp it unless you own 100% of the land in that kingdom.

You can also create/usurp duchies in this way, and create empires (an empire is just a grouping of kingdoms the way a kingdom is a group of duchies).

Terminus Est
10-01-2014, 04:55 AM
If you hover over the Create/Usurp button, it will tell you exactly what's needed to acquire the title. It's normally 50%+1, some gold and possibly piety.

Jragon
10-01-2014, 05:19 AM
If you hover over the Create/Usurp button, it will tell you exactly what's needed to acquire the title. It's normally 50%+1, some gold and possibly piety.

Right, I was thinking of empires, which is 80% of the land to create.

Though you do need to own at least two duchies to become a king. (Also, never hold more than two duchies yourself for any reason).

Edit, though a couple titualar kingdoms and empires have special conditions you need to meet like the

Roman Empire

buddha_david
10-01-2014, 07:12 AM
What happens if you own more than two duchies?

Also, with the eventual succession, when my second son inherits the Duchy of Galloway and two of its counties, does that mean he will actually split off and become independent?

Terminus Est
10-01-2014, 08:54 AM
Your vassals will hate you for having more than two duchies. The malus is greater the more extra duchies you have. This is only an issue if you're king-level or above. Strangely, if you're emperor, they don't seem to mind you holding extra kingdom titles.

If you're a duke (or petty king or equivalent title) with more than one duchy whose titles are going to be divided between your heirs, then all your various dukedoms will be divided into independent realms. All the more reason to move away from gavelkind and/or acquire a kingdom.

buddha_david
10-01-2014, 10:46 AM
If you're a duke (or petty king or equivalent title) with more than one duchy whose titles are going to be divided between your heirs, then all your various dukedoms will be divided into independent realms. All the more reason to move away from gavelkind and/or acquire a kingdom.
Okay, just so I'm clear, it's only going to be a problem if I create a second duchy? (Currently working on claiming a title in Ireland so I can create Ulster.) I'm only two counties short for claiming the Kingdom of Scotland, though my daughter will soon be matrilineally married to the Duke of Moray's heir -- dunno how that gambit's gonna play out. Here's how the Crovans look so far:

0) King Gudrød "The Great", Petty King of Søreyar, Duke of Galloway, owns counties of Argyll (moved the capital there), Søreyar, Carrick, Galloway and Strangfjord (formerly Ulster). Married to Princess Ragnhild, sister of the current Norway King. Vassals: The Isle of Mann (that clan's worthy of a reality show), Strathearn (owned by Gudrød's genius nephew Kolbein), Clydesdale (Gudrød has tutored the count since age six, so he likes me a lot, but hasn't become Norwegian yet) and the recently conquered Uriel, which I gave to Máel Dúin Ua Cheinnselig, son of that Welsh lady with the claim on Gwynedd; he's eighteen and will eventually marry (matrilineally) Gudrød's niece Euna Crovan, so that should stay in the family.

1) Prince Olaf, heir to everything except the Duchy of Galloway and its two counties. Married a nice Norwegian girl with no major family ties, but has kick-ass stats (18 stewardship, 12 martial, 8/9/5 for the rest.) Has one daughter but no son yet.

2) Prince Ichabod, who's my chancellor with 23 (!!!) points in that skill. Married to the Duke of Orkney's daughter, who will inherit that Duchy *if* my plot to kill her little brother ever comes to fruition. (Actually, their newborn son will inherit.) Ichabod's been appointed successor to a random bishoprich to make the succession less complicated, so he won't inherit anything. (He keeps begging me for a title, though.)

3) Prince Obadiah, also heir to a random bishoprich. (Sorry about the dumb names, I was in a hurry and didn't bother looking up genuine Norwegian names.) His stats & traits are crap, and somehow he became "Possessed", don't even know what that means. For some reason I was able to arrest him w/o penalty, no idea why, so he's currently languishing in the dungeon. I'll probably execute him when I'm feeling tyrannical.

4) Prince Jorundr, heir to the Duchy of Galloway and two of its counties. Married an English girl who was related to King Harald's heir, but that got bolloxed up with the English revolt and now that King Harald has died, I no longer have an alliance with England (which is okay, I'm sick of getting dragged into their phony wars and they're never available whenever I declare war on Scotland.) No kids yet, but pregnant.

5) Princess Astrid, age 14 and matrilineally betrothed to Hugh Mac Áeda, heir to the Duke of Moray.

6) Princess Brigitte, age six and not betrothed to anyone yet.

I'm a little concerned about Strathearn -- Count Kolbein and his genius wife haven't procreated yet, and with the death of Kolbein's father, the current heir is some random guy in Serbia (???); what would be my options if that happens?

buddha_david
10-01-2014, 11:30 AM
Also, is there any way to see how the princes feel about each other? All of King Gudrød's children love him, but I have no clue what his sons think of the heir apparent.

Terminus Est
10-01-2014, 11:35 AM
You're going to need two duchies to get the Kingdom of Scotland. Ulster doesn't qualify since that's in Ireland.

But you say you're Petty King of Søreyar. The CKII wiki tells me that's actually the Duchy of The Isles. Since you're also Duke of Galloway you've got your two duchies right there. If you should die now Prince Olaf will be Petty King of Søreyar and Prince Jorundr will become Petty King of Galloway. These are both duke-level titles and your realm will be split.

Terminus Est
10-01-2014, 11:41 AM
Also, is there any way to see how the princes feel about each other? All of King Gudrød's children love him, but I have no clue what his sons think of the heir apparent.

I'm fairly sure there's a way to do this through the diplomacy screen, but I'm not in a position to fire up the game at the moment.

buddha_david
10-01-2014, 01:22 PM
But you say you're Petty King of Søreyar. The CKII wiki tells me that's actually the Duchy of The Isles. Since you're also Duke of Galloway you've got your two duchies right there. If you should die now Prince Olaf will be Petty King of Søreyar and Prince Jorundr will become Petty King of Galloway. These are both duke-level titles and your realm will be split.
So the clock is ticking then... guess I'd better get cracking on finding WMDs forging more claims in Scotland!

(The name must have changed in a recent patch; I was wondering why so many playthroughs -- including this hilarious AAR (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?588118-Saltborn-A-Crovan-AAR) -- called it The Duchy of the Isles instead of Søreyar.)

Jragon
10-01-2014, 03:53 PM
So the clock is ticking then... guess I'd better get cracking on finding WMDs forging more claims in Scotland!

(The name must have changed in a recent patch; I was wondering why so many playthroughs -- including this hilarious AAR (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?588118-Saltborn-A-Crovan-AAR) -- called it The Duchy of the Isles instead of Søreyar.)

The Norse all get different names for a lot of places in the British isles. So if you're Scottish (or anyone else) you'll see Duchy of the Isles whereas if you're Norse you'll see Søreyar. It depends on your character's culture I think.

buddha_david
10-01-2014, 11:29 PM
Arrgghhh, these claim mechanics are pissing me off. Twice now, I've had to revert after inviting to my court someone with a strong claim on Tyrone, declaring war & taking over, but completely forgetting that the new earl does *not* become my vassal that way! I mean, for real, is that how it really worked in the Middle Ages? A powerful king restores your rightful title to some piddly piece of land, and the only reward you give him is, "Thanks, cya!" That doesn't make any sense! :smack:

Terminus Est
10-02-2014, 12:05 AM
Wait til you make a play for an entire kingdom, only to find out that the claimant wasn't your vassal and you've just installed a large and potentially dangerous rival next door.

GreasyJack
10-02-2014, 12:22 AM
A powerful king restores your rightful title to some piddly piece of land, and the only reward you give him is, "Thanks, cya!" That doesn't make any sense! :smack:

You mean a powerful petty king? ;)

Before you throw in the towel and reload, are you remembering to try offering them vassalization? The huge "pressed my claim" opinion bonus will help you overcome some of the negative factors like religious differences, slightly different culture, only one difference in rank, not de jure or no bordering counties. Also when you do get a real kingdom, don't forget trying to offer vassalization to any de jure counties you haven't mopped up yet.

buddha_david
10-02-2014, 12:28 AM
How do I offer vassalization?

Jragon
10-02-2014, 12:30 AM
How do I offer vassalization?

Go to the count's diplomacy tab.

It also sometimes, extremely rarely, works on dukes if you're a really powerful king or emperor, but it never works on kings.

Terminus Est
10-02-2014, 01:09 AM
Similarly, there's a "Swear Fealty" button, which works if you're independent and you want to come under the protection of a higher polity. Or undermine them from the inside. ;)

Mosier
10-02-2014, 02:37 AM
Arrgghhh, these claim mechanics are pissing me off. Twice now, I've had to revert after inviting to my court someone with a strong claim on Tyrone, declaring war & taking over, but completely forgetting that the new earl does *not* become my vassal that way! I mean, for real, is that how it really worked in the Middle Ages? A powerful king restores your rightful title to some piddly piece of land, and the only reward you give him is, "Thanks, cya!" That doesn't make any sense! :smack:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's exactly how it worked. Even more, you can press someone's claim to give them a higher rank than you have! Think of all those dukes in various wars in England who went to war to install the "rightful" king.

It's kind of a cool mechanic, if you ask me. :)

Think of it this way. If you were the king of Scotland, and you helped an English nobleman claim his rightful place as ruler of an English county, why should you end up ruling the county? Likewise, if you were ruler of duchy A, and you help someone claim their rightful title in duchy B, why should they become your vassal? Their county has nothing to do with your realm. You just helped put the rightful person in charge.

Of course, that all gets thrown out the window if you're already the boss of this person, who's claim you're pressing. Then, it's perfectly natural for this person's new territory to be added to your realm, as a vassal can't ever have more than one liege.

buddha_david
10-02-2014, 05:20 AM
Think of it this way. If you were the king of Scotland, and you helped an English nobleman claim his rightful place as ruler of an English county, why should you end up ruling the county? Likewise, if you were ruler of duchy A, and you help someone claim their rightful title in duchy B, why should they become your vassal? Their county has nothing to do with your realm. You just helped put the rightful person in charge.
But what purpose does it serve, in terms of gameplay, to replace one random Count with another random Count? At least in real life, when for example the USA liberated Kuwait, the advantage was gaining more favorable oil contracts and a place to station our troops. There doesn't appear to be any similar mechanic in this game. (And I did try re-doing the scenario to see if the new Count would accept vassalization, but it didn't work, mainly because of cultural differences.)

Don't get me wrong, I'm still enjoying the hell out of this game, and definitely feel as if I've barely scratched the surface -- it's only 1093, and from what I've seen, the game does take a *long* time to really get rolling. It's just that the methods of expansion seem so counter-intuitive, without resorting to gamey tactics like granting a county to the person with a claim, only to revoke it later. Heck, even the tried-and-true method of fabricating claims with your chancellor feels a bit gamey at times (not to mention wholly random.)

Terminus Est
10-02-2014, 07:25 AM
From the wiki on Claimants (http://ckiiwiki.com/Claimants#Pressing_a_claim)

A claim is "pressed" when war is declared using that claim as a casus belli. Pressing a claim "renews" it, ensuring that it will be inherited by the claim holder's children. Even if the war ends in white peace or inconclusively, the claim remains pressed. It is sometimes useful to press a claim of a courtier and then get white peace, so that that courtier's children - belonging to your dynasty, perhaps - will inherit the claim.


You may still find it useful to press a claim even if the claimant becomes independent, to weaken a rival for example.

Mosier
10-02-2014, 10:42 AM
But what purpose does it serve, in terms of gameplay, to replace one random Count with another random Count? At least in real life, when for example the USA liberated Kuwait, the advantage was gaining more favorable oil contracts and a place to station our troops. There doesn't appear to be any similar mechanic in this game. (And I did try re-doing the scenario to see if the new Count would accept vassalization, but it didn't work, mainly because of cultural differences.)

The advantage (every time) is +100 opinion from the person you installed.

The advantage (sometimes) is replacing an enemy on your borders with an ally. The person you press a claim for may be one of your dynasty members (automatic alliance for as long as the ruler is of your dynasty) or someone who is married to one of your close relatives.

Another advantage, already mentioned, is that you may weaken a rival by knocking out one of his vassals. If you have no other casus belli against your rival, pressing a claim for someone may be the only way you have to undermine him.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still enjoying the hell out of this game, and definitely feel as if I've barely scratched the surface -- it's only 1093, and from what I've seen, the game does take a *long* time to really get rolling. It's just that the methods of expansion seem so counter-intuitive, without resorting to gamey tactics like granting a county to the person with a claim, only to revoke it later. Heck, even the tried-and-true method of fabricating claims with your chancellor feels a bit gamey at times (not to mention wholly random.)

There are a LOT of gamey, unrealistic ways to expand. No disagreement here.

Pleonast
10-02-2014, 03:48 PM
There's a huge Paradox sale on Steam this weekend (starting today).

GreasyJack
10-02-2014, 04:16 PM
Also, is there any way to see how the princes feel about each other? All of King Gudrød's children love him, but I have no clue what his sons think of the heir apparent.

I have the game open and I actually don't think there is. The closest thing is you can use the opinion map mode to see what various rulers think of each other, but they need to at least have a county for that to work.

Incidentally that map mode is pretty handy for checking the Pope's opinion of people to see if there's anyone in the neighborhood he might be willing to excommunicate or grant you a claim on. It's also handy for planning wars to see if your target's allies are actually likely to join or not.

buddha_david
10-02-2014, 04:41 PM
There's a huge Paradox sale on Steam this weekend (starting today).
Sweet. Does anyone know if installing DLC's will break my current saved games? In particular I'm looking at the graphical upgrades (character portraits, etc.); the gameplay ones can probably wait until later.

Pleonast
10-02-2014, 05:18 PM
Sweet. Does anyone know if installing DLC's will break my current saved games? In particular I'm looking at the graphical upgrades (character portraits, etc.); the gameplay ones can probably wait until later.
Graphical upgrades definitely will not affect save games.

I believe buying game play upgrades will not affect save games, either. What happens is, when a new game play expansion is released, the base game gets updated as well. This often does break save games, regardless if you buy the expansion or not. So when Rajas of India was released a while back, which greatly expanded the map, all save games were broken, whether or not you bought the expansion because the map was extended in the base game. Buying the expansion simply lets you play Indian-religion rulers.

I've found the game play expansions well worth it. It's usually the graphical ones I'm slow to get.

buddha_david
10-03-2014, 07:45 AM
Well, my plan to marry into the Duchy of Moray suddenly went tits-up, when King Gudrod's daughter was MURDERED on her 16th birthday by the Countess of Mann -- doesn't make any sense, since she didn't have any claims on that territory. Unless it was revenge for assassinating nearly everyone in House Irving since they had strong claims on my territory...nah, that couldn't possibly be it.

Anyway, my spymaster was apparently in on the plot, since I was able to arrest him w/o penalty; but for some reason, it's gonna cost -10 opinion with my vassals if I have him executed. (You'd think they'd be more understanding since he schemed to MURDER THE KING'S DAUGHTER, but eh, whatever.) He's dead meat, of course, but he's also a bishop vassal, and I haven't decided who should succeed him yet. For some reason I couldn't imprison the Countess herself w/o penalty, despite knowing she was behind it, but I did go ahead and swallow the opinion hit from revoking the Count's title and installing my nephew in his place. Also I initiated a plot to murder the Countess herself, but she had the temerity to die of natural causes before it came to fruition, how utterly unsatisfying.

Which brings up a question -- how exactly do spymaster missions work? I'm assuming "Built Spy Network" is supposed to increase the power of plots, but all it seems to do is spread rumors like outing nobles as homosexuals and stuff. (Meanwhile, "Steal Technology" doesn't seem to do squat.)

Terminus Est
10-03-2014, 11:12 AM
It's "Study Technology" not "Steal Technology". It gives you a chance of gaining some number of technology points, which you are free to spend on the technology screen. It only works if the province is actually technologically superior to you. If you've stationed your spymaster in a neighboring county, then they're likely at the same technology level as you, so nothing will be gained. This is especially true if you're out in the technological hinterlands like Scotland. Put your spymaster in Rome or Constantinople and watch the tech points roll in.

Scheme increases the chance of detecting plots against you. You can also discourage vassals from joining factions against you or encourage them to join your faction. Build Spy Network increases assassination chances for, I think, the diplomacy-based assassination attempt. There's also a chance of accusing a ruler of corruption or blackmailing a homosexual ruler.

clairobscur
10-03-2014, 05:17 PM
Incidentally that map mode is pretty handy for checking the Pope's opinion of people to see if there's anyone in the neighborhood he might be willing to excommunicate or grant you a claim on. It's also handy for planning wars to see if your target's allies are actually likely to join or not.

Thanks for the tips.

buddha_david
10-03-2014, 09:45 PM
Speaking of technology, is it ever worthwhile to have your councilors research tech? (Except the court chaplain of course, who is otherwise worthless.)

Terminus Est
10-03-2014, 10:58 PM
Speaking of technology, is it ever worthwhile to have your councilors research tech? (Except the court chaplain of course, who is otherwise worthless.)

When I played the King of Aragon, I would often ask my Spymaster to study technology in Córdoba. Even though it's nearby, the Muslims had substantially better tech than any of the other Christians. Stationing the spymaster there would also lift the fog of war in the immediate vicinity, so I could see what the infidels were up to. Also, Córdoba historically had the best steel in the region, so studying tech there worked from a role playing perspective.

The court chaplain is, of course, immensely valuable in converting a populace. Can't have infidels and heretics in your own lands, you know. Even when everyone is Christian (and the right kind of Christian), if you send your chaplain to convince the local bishops that you're a better guy than the Pope, then they'll start giving their taxes to you rather than His Holiness.

Or maybe you're in danger of being excommunicated. What's so bad about that? Well, aside from eternal damnation on your soul, everyone gets a free CB on you. It's open season on the heretic. But if you send your chaplain to talk to the Big Guy in Rome before that happens, he might like you enough not to do it. If it's too late, he might still forgive you (after a suitable donation to church coffers, of course).

Jragon
10-03-2014, 11:28 PM
It's "Study Technology" not "Steal Technology". It gives you a chance of gaining some number of technology points, which you are free to spend on the technology screen. It only works if the province is actually technologically superior to you. If you've stationed your spymaster in a neighboring county, then they're likely at the same technology level as you, so nothing will be gained. This is especially true if you're out in the technological hinterlands like Scotland. Put your spymaster in Rome or Constantinople and watch the tech points roll in.

You can't do that anymore, they put a distance limit on studying technology. usually your best bet is somewhere in France in you're in the (modern day) UK now.

And it may as well be "steal technology", if your spymaster is noticed you'll get a relationship malus and your spy may be imprisoned or executed.

Terminus Est
10-03-2014, 11:40 PM
You can't do that anymore, they put a distance limit on studying technology. usually your best bet is somewhere in France in you're in the (modern day) UK now.
Damn! That must have changed with Rajas of India; I haven't fired up the game since that DLC was released.

And now I wanna go play a Hindu potentate.

clairobscur
10-04-2014, 06:45 AM
I have a question about lord mayors and doges.

After seizing an Italian city-state, I wanted to keep the town as capital of the county. However, I'm hit by two things :

-A -30 relationship penalty with the lord mayor for "wrong government type". Ok, I can live with that. Maybe patricians don't like to have a noble boss.

-The city seems to be reduced to a fraction of its normal income. So, the the game seems to act as if the "lord mayor" was in fact a count with a wrong type of holding, and seems to apply to him the 75% income penalty (despite the game calling him "lord mayor").


I tried to grant this title to several different persons, including someone who was already a mayor, hoping he would stay this and wouldn't get the penalty, to no avail.


Am I doing something wrong, or is it impossible to have a lord mayor or doge as vassal without getting hit by the 75% "wrong government" income penalty?

Jragon
10-04-2014, 08:29 AM
As far as I know, owning Noble Repiblics just sucks (unless you're playing as one).

Terminus Est
10-04-2014, 09:08 AM
You'll just have to suck up the "wrong government" malus. There's no avoiding that. A republic will only become a merchant republic if it's on the coast; they need to establish trading posts which is only possible with a coastline. If the province is already coastal, then you'll need to give the patricians time to establish trading posts. Once that gets going, you'll start making serious bank, even with the penalty.

Jragon
10-04-2014, 10:09 AM
Though really, the best option is burying them under dukes (or kings once you're an emperor). Your subvassals' opinion of you doesn't mean shit.

clairobscur
10-04-2014, 02:54 PM
You'll just have to suck up the "wrong government" malus. There's no avoiding that. A republic will only become a merchant republic if it's on the coast; they need to establish trading posts which is only possible with a coastline. If the province is already coastal, then you'll need to give the patricians time to establish trading posts. Once that gets going, you'll start making serious bank, even with the penalty.

In fact, it's Ancona, so it's already on the coast.

So, I should keep the city as capital? I had renunced to this idea, and intended to transfer the capital to a castle. You're sure I'm going to make more money this way, despite the apparent 75% malus?

Also, I proceed as I tried to : granting the county title to anybody? Nothing peculiar to pay attention to?

clairobscur
10-04-2014, 03:01 PM
Something else : it seems to me that it used to be that when a kid was tutored by someone with the highest level of a trait, the child most often received the same trait as the same highest level. And that only the last mentor mattered for this.

However, in this game, out of 6 children, all mentored 5 years by myself and 5 years by a courtier/vassal with a trait at the highest level, only one got a highest level of the trait, and two got the *lowest* level of the trait, the others in between.


Am I misremembering, am I very unlucky, or did they change the rules in a patch?

Tamerlane
10-04-2014, 03:34 PM
But what purpose does it serve, in terms of gameplay, to replace one random Count with another random Count?

Gameplay? GAMEPLAY?!?!

Dear sir, this game is all about role-playing - you're not in it to win, you're in it to make things interesting* :D!





* Lest I be accused of haughty prescriptivism, you should of course play in whatever way you find fun :). But personally I do try to at least weakly role-play to my character's traits and depending on the area I stick to either gavelkind or primogeniture. For example if I'm zealous I'll sometimes join in far away non-ally realm's crusades against pagans/Muslims, whether it is to my immediate benefit or not - not stupidly of course ( unless my ruler is a dolt ), but I'll always consider it. At the end of the day it's mostly about spreading my dynasty near and far, whether I actually control them or not ( that little ledger tool that shows the members of your dynasty and how many realms they hold is loosely how I measure success ). So under the right circumstances I tend to be pretty comfortable watching my realms disintegrate with partible inheritance.

Jragon
10-04-2014, 06:16 PM
^^^ Fuck that. Convert to Cathar, have a Queen, dominate the world. All day, every day.

Mosier
10-04-2014, 06:37 PM
In fact, it's Ancona, so it's already on the coast.

So, I should keep the city as capital? I had renunced to this idea, and intended to transfer the capital to a castle. You're sure I'm going to make more money this way, despite the apparent 75% malus?

Also, I proceed as I tried to : granting the county title to anybody? Nothing peculiar to pay attention to?

The city probably has the "recently conquered" or "new administration" debuff on it.

Also, single counties cannot be merchant republics. The ruler has to have a duchy-level title. This is worth the hassle, trust me. You get to tax the guy at something like 15%, and that counts for ALL his income, including his palace and his trade posts. Also, his trade posts will increase the taxes you get from the regions they're in. Seriously, there's a reason why the game arbitrarily limits the number of merchant republic vassals you can have, and it's because they're insanely good tax revenue.

Tamerlane
10-04-2014, 07:19 PM
^^^ Fuck that. Convert to Cathar, have a Queen, dominate the world. All day, every day.

:D

About time the Albigensians succeeded!

buddha_david
10-05-2014, 01:30 AM
Question: Is it truly impossible to take your direct heir out of the line of succession? I'm displeased with Prince Olaf's failure to produce a son, but he doesn't appear on the list when I try to select him as a bishop's successor.

Also, my spymasters keep getting murdered -- is there a way to help prevent that?

buddha_david
10-05-2014, 01:37 AM
Oh, and I figured out how to check opinions between minor characters -- right-click their portrait, then right click the face button that appears and that will bring up the option. (Which is another reason I wanna ditch Prince Olaf -- everyone hates him, but everyone loves Prince #2! Also, his stats really kinda suck.)

GreasyJack
10-05-2014, 01:48 AM
Oh, and I figured out how to check opinions between minor characters -- right-click their portrait, then right click the face button that appears and that will bring up the option. (Which is another reason I wanna ditch Prince Olaf -- everyone hates him, but everyone loves Prince #2! Also, his stats really kinda suck.)

Whoa, nice!

appleciders
10-05-2014, 02:09 AM
It's "Study Technology" not "Steal Technology". It gives you a chance of gaining some number of technology points, which you are free to spend on the technology screen. It only works if the province is actually technologically superior to you. If you've stationed your spymaster in a neighboring county, then they're likely at the same technology level as you, so nothing will be gained. This is especially true if you're out in the technological hinterlands like Scotland. Put your spymaster in Rome or Constantinople and watch the tech points roll in.

Scheme increases the chance of detecting plots against you. You can also discourage vassals from joining factions against you or encourage them to join your faction. Build Spy Network increases assassination chances for, I think, the diplomacy-based assassination attempt. There's also a chance of accusing a ruler of corruption or blackmailing a homosexual ruler.

Study Tech has two major benefits: it allows a chance for an event to fire that allows your spymaster to gain you a bunch of tech points that you can spend on a tech you don't have, and it allows tech drift (the chance for a province lower in a particular technology to move upward by 10% of an upgrade) from the target county into your capital. Ordinarily, tech drift happens only between adjacent provinces and each of a ruler's personal demesne counties, but if you put your spymaster in a technologically advanced province (Constantinople is a great bet, as are many Italian and Muslim provinces) your capital can gain technological advances from that province. To pick a good province, go to the tech screen and click on the little map-mode buttons by each technology to see which provinces worldwide have the best of any particular technology.

Speaking of technology, is it ever worthwhile to have your councilors research tech? (Except the court chaplain of course, who is otherwise worthless.)

I rarely have my marshal research technology unless I'm also using my spymaster to gain military technologies and I really want to boost the rate that it spreads, or I've just moved my capital and I want to encourage tech drift from my old capital into my new one. The chaplain is very useful for converting provinces that aren't of your religion (though that doesn't work very well for unreformed Pagans) and useful for buttering up the Pope if you're Catholic. The economic adviser is best used to increase your income, unless you're already pretty rich with a large demense, in which case I like to use him to research technology in a county in my personal demesne so that I can improve it even more. If I'm really filthy rich, I'll use the "decrease local build time" mission, which can allow you to build up a whole county to whatever your technology allows really fast.

Sorry for the long-winded explanation, but I know that this stuff is really poorly documented and it took me quite a while to figure out.
The city probably has the "recently conquered" or "new administration" debuff on it.

Also, single counties cannot be merchant republics. The ruler has to have a duchy-level title. This is worth the hassle, trust me. You get to tax the guy at something like 15%, and that counts for ALL his income, including his palace and his trade posts. Also, his trade posts will increase the taxes you get from the regions they're in. Seriously, there's a reason why the game arbitrarily limits the number of merchant republic vassals you can have, and it's because they're insanely good tax revenue.

Merchant republic vassals have a much higher income than feudal vassals and greatly inferior levy troops, so that's your trade-off. Tax them accordingly; set your realm laws to really soak them for money, but don't require them to give you many troops, since the troops they give you aren't really worth much anyway. They will certainly hate you, and can be among the most troublesome vassals, but I always find it's worth it to have a few.

Much better, however, are church vassals. They pay almost as much money as city vassals, have somewhat better levies, and don't arbitrarily hate you in the same way. In past updates, lots of players would try to have exclusively church vassals, as they're usually pretty easy to manage. Plus, if you're Catholic, your powerful church vassals have a greatly increased chance of becoming a Cardinal, and thereafter the Pope.

clairobscur
10-05-2014, 07:22 AM
The city probably has the "recently conquered" or "new administration" debuff on it.

Yes, you must be right. I had completely forgotten about this.

Also, single counties cannot be merchant republics. The ruler has to have a duchy-level title. This is worth the hassle, trust me. You get to tax the guy at something like 15%, and that counts for ALL his income, including his palace and his trade posts. Also, his trade posts will increase the taxes you get from the regions they're in. Seriously, there's a reason why the game arbitrarily limits the number of merchant republic vassals you can have, and it's because they're insanely good tax revenue.

Thanks. However, I'm only a duke myself, so it will have to wait. I'll try it. Maybe I already had a vassal trade republic, but I don't think so. We'll see how filthy rich I get.

I wanted the town to stay capital for a bit of variety, and also thinking that a lord mayor getting income from a county would probably improve nicely the city over time.

clairobscur
10-05-2014, 08:07 AM
Also, my spymasters keep getting murdered -- is there a way to help prevent that?

Are you spymasters scheming in your own capital to protect you from plots?


If so, I think that's the reason. People scheming in your court or against someone in your court are trying to take him out first.

It seems to me that not letting them scheme in your capital significantly reduces spymasters' mortality rate (not verified, that's what I think I noticed). Otherwise, the only way is to have a spymaster with a very high intrigue. Or to be unimportant yourself.

clairobscur
10-05-2014, 08:08 AM
Oh, and I figured out how to check opinions between minor characters -- right-click their portrait, then right click the face button that appears and that will bring up the option. (Which is another reason I wanna ditch Prince Olaf -- everyone hates him, but everyone loves Prince #2! Also, his stats really kinda suck.)

Great tip! Thanks!

buddha_david
10-05-2014, 12:20 PM
It seems to me that not letting them scheme in your capital significantly reduces spymasters' mortality rate (not verified, that's what I think I noticed).
Interestingly, having my spymaster scheme in my capital caused him to uncover plots to kill him before they managed to kill him. YMMV, I guess...

Okay, something strange just happened. I finally got around to executing that treacherous bishop, since I was in a position where I could take the opinion hit, and set up Prince Ichabod as his automatic successor -- but as soon as Prince Ickie took over, his wife & kids suddenly packed up and moved back to Norway, and they're no longer married??!!? (I thought the church frowned on divorce?) Even stranger, Ickie's former wife is no longer heir to the Duchy of Orkney, that's passed on to her younger sister. Her kids are still Crovans, though.

Mosier
10-05-2014, 01:07 PM
I don't think there's any way to create a married Catholic bishop.

Terminus Est
10-05-2014, 01:11 PM
With the Paradox weekend sale winding down, I thought I'd list the major DLC and what they bring to the game.


Sword of Islam - adds the ability to play as a Muslim ruler
Legacy of Rome - additional events and decisions for the Byzantine Empire and the Orthodox Church; adds the ability to restore the Roman Empire; adds retinues
Sunset Invasion - a non-historic invasion of Aztecs in the west, similar to the historic invasion of Mongols in the east
The Republic - lets you play as a Merchant Republic
The Old Gods - pushes the start date back to 867; lets you play as a Pagan or Zoroastrian
The Sons of Abraham - adds additional gameplay mechanics for the three Abrahamic faiths, such as the College of Cardinals for Catholics; can play as a Jewish ruler as re-establish the Kingdom of Israel
Rajas of India - extends the map all the way to India and makes Hindu, Buddhist, and Jain rulers playable


Note that each DLC was introduced alongside a patch that changed gameplay for everyone, even if you don't have that DLC. For example, Sword of Islam changed gameplay mechanics and added events and decisions for Muslim rulers; the AI will use these even without the DLC. It's only if you really want to play as a Muslim ruler do you need the Sword of Islam. Perhaps the most notable gameplay change was the addition of Retinues; for that you do need the Legacy of Rome even if you don't intend to play a Byzantine.

There are also various graphical and music DLC that make no difference to gameplay. You might as well pick up Songs of Yuletide as it's free; as the name suggests, you'll get some additional songs during Christmastime.

Finally, there's the Ruler Designer, which allows you to create a ruler with customized dynasty, name, appearance, attributes, and coat of arms. Note that the customized appearance and attributes only apply to your initial character. Once the game starts, you'll have to rely on breeding like everyone else.

buddha_david
10-05-2014, 11:04 PM
I don't think there's any way to create a married Catholic bishop.
Fair enough. But why would his former wife & kids be stripped of their inheritance? :confused:

clairobscur
10-06-2014, 02:28 PM
I'm unclear about something again. "Studying technology" improve spread of technology from the province the advisor is placed in to nearby provinces, or from nearby provinces to the province where he's placed in?

I think the latter, but I'm not sure.

Mosier
10-06-2014, 08:27 PM
I'm unclear about something again. "Studying technology" improve spread of technology from the province the advisor is placed in to nearby provinces, or from nearby provinces to the province where he's placed in?

I think the latter, but I'm not sure.

Your capital benefits from your spymaster doing the study technology mission. Tech drift is different, and naturally happens between all adjacent counties. The rate at which your tech goes up depends on (among other things) these two factors, which are additive.

In addition to all this, your ruler develops tech points which can be spent to "purchase" technology in your capital. This is a completely different way to gain tech, and does not interact with the study technology mission your spymaster does. If anyone is significantly "ahead" in tech, it's because they're developing tech points faster than their neighbors.

Terminus Est
10-07-2014, 02:09 AM
I thought the spymaster Study Tech mission gave you a probability of getting technology points; the CKII wiki seems to confirm this. You're free to spend the tech points as you see fit, like any other tech points. Spending tech points in this manner increases the technology level in your capital, which then diffuses outwards to outer provinces.

Other council members can research technology related to their area of expertise, e.g., the Marshal can research military tech. According to the wiki, this increases the rate of technology spread as well as giving you a chance of gaining tech points appropriate to their field.

ETA: http://ckiiwiki.com/Council

clairobscur
10-07-2014, 09:09 AM
Your capital benefits from your spymaster doing the study technology mission. Tech drift is different, and naturally happens between all adjacent counties. The rate at which your tech goes up depends on (among other things) these two factors, which are additive.

In addition to all this, your ruler develops tech points which can be spent to "purchase" technology in your capital. This is a completely different way to gain tech, and does not interact with the study technology mission your spymaster does. If anyone is significantly "ahead" in tech, it's because they're developing tech points faster than their neighbors.


I wasn't talking about the spymaster spying activities, but about tech research by your marshall or chaplain in your own lands. And wondering if they should stay in your capital so that tech will spread quicker to nearby provinces, or in nearby provinces so that tech will spread quicker from your capital. I'm not sure which it is.

buddha_david
10-07-2014, 09:27 AM
And wondering if they should stay in your capital so that tech will spread quicker to nearby provinces, or in nearby provinces so that tech will spread quicker from your capital. I'm not sure which it is.
I always set councilors to research tech in my capital because that's how I've seen everyone else do it. Though to be honest, the steward always seems to be best used for collecting extra taxes -- those occasional bonus tithes are very nice!!

Terminus Est
10-07-2014, 11:14 PM
I use my councilors for research mission very rarely - only if they have nothing better to do. It strikes me as most useful when you've moved your capital. Say you've finally acquired the kingdom you've had your eye on. Your current capital is now on the outskirts of the realm. So you move the capital to some place more central. But it's a technological backwater, so you order your councillors to research tech.

buddha_david
10-13-2014, 04:53 PM
Is there any way to cancel a war after being called in as an ally? England's been bogged down in a civil war for many years, but I can't figure out how to make peace with the revolters so I can hold feasts and summer fairs again. :dubious:

Mosier
10-14-2014, 12:47 AM
One side has to surrender, or the casus belli must become invalid, (for example, when the claimant who's claim is being pressed dies, or when the target of a holy war converts to the attacker's religion). Also, if the alliance becomes invalid, for example due to your ruler or the ally ruler dying, you will stop participating in the war. Just make sure if you assassinate him, that you won't be marriage-allied to his heir!

buddha_david
10-14-2014, 09:11 AM
Just make sure if you assassinate him, that you won't be marriage-allied to his heir!
I love how in this game, assassination's considered a panacea for nearly everything. :D

GreasyJack
10-14-2014, 06:00 PM
Have you tried actually, you know, helping your ally?

Usually the way the endless wars happen is that the attacker takes a few holdings but then there's a big battle and both sides' levies get depleted to the point that neither can conduct sieges. Since the attacker has some holdings (but doesn't control the subject of the war) the war score doesn't automatically count down.

If the AI were smart, they would wait until their levies have replenished enough before raising them again, but it isn't and they instead raise tiny little armies as soon as they can. But that means that you should be able to swoop in with your full levies and liberate the rebel-held holdings and get the war score counter ticking down again.

clairobscur
10-14-2014, 07:38 PM
So, the Charlemagne extension was released, and my savegames are CTD-bugged. In fact, obviously, everybody is fighting bugs, and I guess the game won't be stable until the first patch.

First thing I noticed : there's now a limit to the total number of vassals, and a "Centralization" tab. If your realm is more centralized, you can have more holdings in your demesne, but less vassals (and the other way around). The trade-in for me is 5 vassals less for one direct holding more. Not sure it's universal.

As king of Italy with a very good diplomacy, I can have up to 27 vassals on medium centralization, to give you an idea. So, it's quite comfortable, but my plan of destroying duchies and keeping counts as direct vassals soon is thwarted. What is weird is that I never do that but I intended to this time around :(

Terminus Est
10-14-2014, 11:33 PM
For the assassination-happy players [buddha_david, I'm looking at you!], the new patch removes the diplomatic "Assassinate" button in favor of beefing up the assassination plots. Your spymaster can now increase plot power through "Build Spy Network".

Jragon
10-14-2014, 11:55 PM
Have you tried actually, you know, helping your ally?

What? Help... ally? In a Paradox game? What is this strange new world?

So, the Charlemagne extension was released, and my savegames are CTD-bugged. In fact, obviously, everybody is fighting bugs, and I guess the game won't be stable until the first patch.

Welcome to the release of a major content patch in a Paradox game. :(

Terminus Est
02-18-2015, 03:06 AM
[x-posted from the game sale thread]

In celebration of its three-year anniversary, Crusader Kings II is free to play on Steam for a week. These things usually only take place over the weekend, but in the case of CKII a week seems to be just about the right length of time to get the hang of things. The base game and DLC is also 75% off for the week.

iiandyiiii
02-18-2015, 08:54 AM
All Game of Thrones and ASOIAF fans (and strategy game fans) should get the GoT mod for CK2 -- it really is awesome. The game captures the backstabbing politics of the show and book series better than I thought any game possibly could.

Play as Robb Stark and try to marry Daenerys and kill Joffrey. Play as Stannis and win the Iron Throne and kill Joffrey. Play as Aegon the Conqueror and claim Westeros (and there will probably be some minor lord named Joffrey you can kill, if you want).

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